SHARMINI PERIES: Ndiyo Real News Network. Ndiri Sharmini Peries, ndiri kuuya kwauri kubva kuBaltimore.
NeChitatu, Mutungamiri Trump vakazivisa kuti United States ichaziva mutungamiri weVenezuelan anopikisa Juan Guaido semutungamiri ari pamutemo weVenezuela. Mutungamiri Maduro, vachipindura, vakazivisa kuti vari kugura hukama uye vashandi vemumiriri wemumiriri vane maawa makumi manomwe nemaviri ekuti vabude munyika. Zvese izvi zvakakonzereswa nguva pfupi yapfuura Juan Guaido, mutungamiri weNational Assembly muVenezuela, azvipika semutungamiri wenyika.
Zvino, Juan Guaido akazvipika pakutaura kuti Nicolas Maduro, mutungamiri weVenezuela iye zvino, haasi pamutemo, uye izvo zvakapiwa kuti mutungamiri nemutevedzeri wemutungamiri haasi pamutemo, kuti ndiye anotevera mumutsara wehutungamiri. Nezuro, Mutevedzeri weMutungamiriri, VaMike Pence, vakagadzirira zvese izvi nekuita chiziviso chakanangana nevaVenezuela, vachivakurudzira kumukira Mutungamiri Maduro.
MIKE PENCE: Ndakamiririra Mutungamiriri wenyika, VaDonald Trump, nevanhu vese vekuAmerica, regai nditaure rutsigiro rusingazununguki rweUnited States, sezvo imi, vanhu veVenezuela, muchisimudza manzwi enyu mukudaidzira rusununguko. Nicolas Maduro mudzvanyiriri asina mvumo yepamutemo yesimba. United States inobatana nenyika dzese dzinoda rusununguko mukuona National Assembly senzira yekupedzisira yedemocracy munyika yenyu, nekuti ndiro chete dare rakasarudzwa nemi, vanhu. Saka nekudaro, United States inotsigira danho rakatorwa neushingi naJuan Guaido, mutungamiri weNational Assembly, kutaura masimba edare iri, kuzivisa Maduro mupambi wechisimba uye kudaidzira kuti pagadzwe hurumende inochinja.
SHARMINI PERIES: Zvino, zvichitungamira kune zvese izvi, makumi ezviuru zvevaVenezuela vaive vaenda kumigwagwa yeCaracas pamusi wegore remakumi matanhatu nerimwe wekupidigura kwemudzvanyiriri weVenezuela wekupedzisira, Marcos Perez Jimenez. Zvino, vatsigiri veMutungamiri Maduro vakapindawo mumigwagwa, nekuti ichi chiitiko chegore negore icho mativi ese, kana veVenezuelanswo zvavo, vanouya kuzopemberera. Asi kuratidzira uku, uye kunyanya kuratidzira kwevanopikisa, kwakashandiswa kuti zviratidzike sekuti uku kwaive kuratidzira kukuru kunoratidza kupidigura, kana kuda kupidigura, Nicolas Maduro.
Zvino, zviri kuitika muVenezuela ndiyo nyaya yenhaurirano iyi. Uye kubatana nesu kubva kuNew York nhasi ndiAlex Main. Ndiye mutungamiriri weInternational Policy Department paCenter for Economic and Policy Research muWashington DC. Uye zvakare anobatana neni pano mu studio yedu ndiGregory Wilpert. Ndiye wedu Managing Edhita pano paThe Real News uye ndiye zvakare munyori weChanging Venezuela neKutora Simba. Varume, ndinokutendai mese nekubatana neni.
GREG WILPERT: Mufaro wangu.
ALEX MAIN: Ndatenda.
SHARMINI PERIES: Zvakanaka, Alex rega nditange newe. Iwe unoshandira CEPR inotungamira mutemo, saka une maoko mazhinji pane ruzivo muWashington maererano nekuyedza kunzwisisa mutemo wekunze weUS wakananga kuVenezuela. Uye kwave nekuedza kwehungwaru pano kuUS kukanganisa hupfumi hweVenezuela, kuronga dunhu kurwisa Venezuela. Tipeiwo pfungwa dzemazano ayo hurumende yeUS pamwe nehutongi hwaTrump hwave kusvika mumwedzi ichangopfuura.
ALEX MAIN: Zvakanaka, hutongi uhwu hwanga huchiendesa akati wandei maitiro mumakore mashoma apfuura. Chaizvoizvo, ivo vanotsigira nzira inoenderera yekuchinja kwehutongi muVenezuela iyo yatakaona kwenguva yakareba, kutanga nekutonga kwaGeorge W. Bush. Uye chaizvo zvakaenderera, kusvika pamwero mukuru, pasi pehutongi hwaObama, kunyangwe hazvo zvisiri zvakanyanya sezvazvave, zvakare, zvakanyanya zvakanyanya pasi peMutungamiri Trump. Uye kunyanya kubva muna Nyamavhuvhu 2017, paakaisa zvirango zvehupfumi izvo zvave kuita nzara hupfumi hwemari inodiwa nedzimwe nyika panguva iyo hupfumi, chokwadika, hwave mudambudziko rakakura.
Saka zvinorangarira rudzi rwemitemo yeUS yatakaona yakananga kuChile mukutanga 1970s, pandinofunga kuti ndiKissinger kana Nixon akataura nemufaro, "Tichaita kuti hupfumi hudanidzire." Uye zvechokwadi, hupfumi hweVenezuela hwave kupopota. Inofanirwa kuita zvakawanda nemamwe hurongwa hwehupfumi husina kunaka hwehurumende yeMaduro pachayo, asi yanyanya kukura zvakanyanya kubva pakaiswa zvirango izvi. Uye zvakare kwave nekutaura kwakawanda kwekupindira kwemauto uye nekutora masimba kubva kuvanhu vese vari mukati mehutongi, seaimbova Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, uye vanhu vari padyo nehutungamiriri vakave nesimba guru pamitemo yeVenezuela, yakadai. saMarco Rubio, uyo akave nepfungwa yekupidigura kugadzirisa matambudziko eVenezuela, sekutaura.
Uye ikozvino tiri kuona zano rekusazivikanwa zvachose. Kutaura chokwadi, manejimendi aya haana kumbobvira aziva hurumende yeMaduro. Mushure mesarudzo dzakatanga dzakasarudza Maduro, hutungamiriri hwaObama, hwanga husati hwanyatsoona zvakabuda musarudzo uye hwakanga hwakatevera huipi hwakaoma mukusaziva zvakabuda musarudzo idzi. Vakabva vadzidza kugara nehurumende, asi iko zvino vave kubuda vachiti havachacherechedze kuti hurumende iri pamutemo. Uye ini ndinofunga izvo zviri pachena ndezvekuti nekutyisidzira kwese uku, nezvirango uye zvichingodaro, vari kuyedza kutsvaga kutyora mukati memauto eVenezuela. Chaizvoizvo, ivo vanoonekwa sevanopikisa, zvinosuwisa, vanoonekwa semutongi wezvabuda mune zvematongerwo enyika muVenezuela nhasi. Uye ndinofunga kuti pane kuedza kwakasimba kuedza kumutsa mauto kuti atsigire mutungamiri webato rinopikisa achangobva kuziviswa uyo aisazivikanwa kusvika masvondo mashoma apfuura.
Uye hongu, kune mishumo yakabuda kutanga kwegore rapfuura kuti vakuru-vakuru-vakuru-vakuru vekutonga kwaTrump vanga vachisangana nevakuru vemauto eVenezuela vanopikisa, avo vaitsvaga rutsigiro rwekupidigura hurumende. Saka ndinofunga kuti ndizvo zviri kuitika pano, uye tichafanira kuona. Ndinoreva, kusvika nhasi mauto ehondo, kana kuti huwandu hwemauto ehondo uye zvechokwadi murairo wepamusoro wemauto eVenezuela, iye zvino aida kubatanidzwa nenzira iyi mune zvematongerwo enyika, uye netariro, izvo zvicharamba zvakadaro. . Asi zviri pachena, tiri pasi pekumanikidzwa kukuru panguva ino.
SHARMINI PERIES: Zvakanaka, Greg. Ikozvino, kune avo vari kungobatana nesu uye vanga vasiri chikamu cheLivestream yataive taita paVenezuela pakabuda nhau iyi, tipeiwo pfungwa yekuti ndezvipi zvimwe zvezviitiko zvakaitika munguva pfupi yapfuura izvo zvave kuitika. zvakatungamirira kumamiriro ezvinhu aya nhasi.
GREG WILPERT: Chekutanga pane zvese, sekutaura kwaAlex, kuedza kupidigura hurumende yeChavez uyezve hurumende yeMaduro kudzokera kumashure, uye zvechokwadi, yakawana kutaura kwayo kwakakosha mukuyedza 2002 kupidigura Chavez. Asi nguva pfupi yadarika, kuedza uku, hongu, kwakawedzera, uye ndinofungidzira kuti zvikonzero zvavakawedzera zvakapetwa. Chekutanga, pakanga paine kufa kweMutungamiri Chavez, uye izvi zvaiita kunge mukana wevanopikisa uye kuti hurumende yeUS ibvise hurumende, ndipo pavakaronga kuratidzira kukuru, mushure mesarudzo. Zvadaro dambudziko rehupfumi, kuderera kwemitengo yemafuta, mazano ehupfumi asina kunaka kune chikamu chehurumende yeMaduro yakatungamirira kune hyperinflation, yakatungamirira ndinofunga kune zvirango, izvo zvakawedzera kuwedzera mamiriro ehupfumi.
Uye zvakare, hongu, isu tine zvakare, kubva mwedzi mishoma yapfuura, kuedza kuuraya kushandisa mabhomba pama drones akarwisa Maduro panguva yehondo. Uye izvo zvakakanganiswa, asi icho chaive chiratidzo chakajeka chekuedza kupidigura Maduro. Iye pachake, gare gare, akaenderera mberi achitaura kuti kumwe kuedza kuchauya uye akanyatsoratidza Mike Pence naJohn Bolton naMarco Rubio sevari shure kwekuedza uku. Uye izvi zvakazoitika nguva pfupi yakatevera, ndinofunga, zvakasimbiswa neavo vaviri, ndiko kuti, rwendo rwaPence naBolton muLatin America yose, kwavakashanyira hurumende dzakasiyana-siyana uye vakavamanikidza kuti vatendeuke kurwisa Venezuela, kwete kuti vaida kusundidzira zvakanyanya, vachifunga nezve. kuti vakashanyira zvikuru hurumende dzinochengetedza. Ehe, Ecuador, ndinofunga, yaive yakasarudzika inonakidza kuti kwekanguva yaisaonekwa seyakachengetedza, asi ikozvino inofanirwa kutorwa sechikamu chemusasa unochengetedza.
Uye zvakare takava nezvimwe zvinonakidza zviitiko zvakaratidza kuputsika mukati memidziyo yekuchengetedza yehurumende yeVenezuela, yekutanga yerudzi rwekusungwa kwemutungamiri anopikisa, Juan Guaido, izvo zvakazove kusungwa kwenhema. Guaido pachake akataura kuti vaimunzwira tsitsi uye vakabva vamuregedza uye vaimuudza kuti aite chimwe chinhu, chaizvo. Zvino chiitiko chevarwi vevarindi venyika vakaedza kuba zvombo, makumi maviri nevanomwe vavo vakapedzisira vasungwa, izvi zvakaitika nezuro chaiye. Saka takave nezviitiko zvakawanda zvakasiyana zvakazotungamira kune izvi. Uye isu taiziva kuti kare, Juan Guaido, paakatanga kutora chigaro cheNational Assembly, akati ainyanya kuronga chimwe chinhu chakadai, kuti akanga asiri kuziva Mutungamiri Maduro semutungamiri weVenezuela, uye akatokurudzira kuti chimwe chinhu. sezvizvi zvichauya nekukurumidza kana kuti gare gare.
Ndinofunga kuti chakashamisa vanhu kupfuura chero chinhu, kunyangwe takaona zviratidzo zvekunyevera nezveizvi zvakare, kwaive kucherechedzwa nehurumende yeUS neOAS Secretary General, uye ikozvino boka rese redzimwe hurumende dzinochengetedza mudunhu, izvo Maduro haasi mutungamiri ari pamutemo, maererano navo.
SHARMINI PERIES: Zvakanaka, Alex. Tipeiwo pfungwa yerudzi rwerutsigiro rwunopikiswa muVenezuela, uye ndinofungidzira Juan Guido kunyanya, ari kuwana kubva kunharaunda dzepasirese, zvirinani mudunhu izvozvi. US yakamutsigira kuti azvipike semutungamiri, sezvandambotaura, asi panguva imwecheteyo tine nyika idzo munguva yakapfuura dzinogona kunge dzakaramba dzisina kwazvakarerekera mumamiriro ezvinhu muLatin America dzichiuya mberi dzichitsigira Juan Guaido. Uye izvi zvinoshamisa, kunyanya kubva kuCanada, kubva kuEcuador. Isu hatishamiswe neBolsonaro muBrazil, zvakapihwa kuti iye nehutongi hwaTrump vakatozivisa hukama kune mumwe nemumwe maererano nedunhu. Asi chii chaunoita nerutsigiro rwuri kuwanikwa naJuan Guaido kubva mudunhu?
ALEX MAIN: Zvakanaka, kune rimwe divi, sekutaura kwaGreg, kune dzakawanda hurumende dzinochengetedza kunze uko iko zvino muLatin America. Paita kuzungunuka kukuru kurudyi. Uye une bapiro rekurudyi uye kure kure mapapiro ehurumende, senge muBrazil, idzo dzakanyatsoenderana, chaizvo, nehurongwa hweUS hwekuchinja hutongi muVenezuela. Uye saka, inzvimbo yezvematongerwo enyika iyo yakaoma kwazvo kuVenezuela parizvino, ine vashoma vanobatana. Asi chinondishamisa ndechekuti vakagadzirira kusvika papi kubvuma kupindira kwakasimba kudaro mune zvematongerwo enyika. Nekuti sechinyakare muLatin America, kwave nekudzoreredza kwakasimba kurudzi irwo rwechinhu, zvichiuya pachena kubva munhoroondo yekupindira kweUS mudunhu.
Uye saka, kwave kuchiitika—uye ndinofunga kuti nyaya yeCuba inofananidzira izvozvo, zvekuti hurumende dzeLatin America dziri kurudyi nekuruboshwe dzakapokana zvikuru nehurongwa hweUS hwekuchinja hutongi muCuba kwenguva yakareba. nguva refu. Saka zvinoshamisa kuvaona vachienda kure zvakadaro panyaya yeVenezuela, asi ndinofunga ine chekuita nenyaya yekuti Venezuela haingori kunze kwezvematongerwo enyika mudunhu izvozvi, asi inyika iyo. Inomiririra kutyisidzira chaiko kune kodzero yedunhu, zvekuti kana vakapora mune zvehupfumi, kana mitengo yemafuta ikakwira zvakare, inogona kuve zvakare simba redunhu sezvayaive iri pasi paChavez, inogona kuve nesimba guru rezvematongerwo enyika kutenderedza. dunhu. Uye zvechokwadi, Venezuela aive mutungamiri chaiye murudzi rwepingi yehurumende dzekuruboshwe dzakabuda mukutanga 2000s, uye vaive vakasimba kusvika 2009, 2010.
Uye saka, ndinofunga zviri kuitika muchikamu kutya chaiko kuti Venezuela inogona kudzoka, sekutaura. Parizvino, vakaremara chaizvo mune zveupfumi. Ndinoreva kuti, vari mumamiriro ezvinhu akaoma zvikuru ayo US yakawedzera kuoma. Uye hapana dzimwe nyika dzakatemera zvirango zvehupfumi izvi kuVenezuela, asi hongu, sezvo mazhinji emasangano ezvemari epasi rose, akazvimirira neveruzhinji, anoshanda kuburikidza neUnited States, zvirango zveUnited States zvine mhedzisiro yakakura. Saka zvakadaro, hongu, ndiri kune rumwe rutivi, kwete kushamisika, kune rumwe rutivi, kune imwe nhanho, ndakashamisika kuti vaizogamuchira iyi nhanho yekupindira. Ndiyo muenzaniso wakaipa chaizvo. Uye zvechokwadi, inopesana nemutemo wenyika dzakawanda, inopesana neOAS charter, ichipindira kusvika kune iyi mune zvematongerwo enyika mukati meimwe nyika.
SHARMINI PERIES: Zvakanaka, Greg. Ikozvino, kwave nekukakavadzana kukuru kwehupfumi mukati mevanhu veVenezuela kwemakore mashanu apfuura, angangoita makore matanhatu izvozvi, uye izvi zvinogona kutungamira vanhu, ndinoreva kusagutsikana kukuru zvekuti vanhu vangangotsigira chero shanduko, kunyangwe iri pamutemo kana kwete, asi vanhu vari kutambura. Zvino, hurumende ingaitei? Ndinoreva kuti, isu tinofanirwa kutarisana nechokwadi chekuti kunetsana kwakawanda kwehupfumi uku kwaigona kunzvengeswa nehurumende dai vakaunza mamwe marongero ehupfumi nekukurumidza uye kugadzirisa dambudziko iri mberi. Saka dai wanga uchiraira hurumende, waizoti kudii kwavari?
GREG WILPERT: Zvakanaka, pane imwe mhando yenyaya yatakakurukura pano pane imwe rondedzero yeThe Real News naMark Weisbrot, uyo anonongedza kuti zvirango zvazvino paVenezuela zvinoita kuti zviome kwazvo kugadzirisa kosi, zvisingaite, asi zvakanyanya kuoma. Uye dambudziko guru nderekuti Venezuela, iyo yandinofunga kuti hurumende yeMaduro haina kushandisa mutemo unonzwisisika wekutsinhana, saka yakagadzira mukana wakakura wehuori. Uye pakaitika dambudziko rezvematongerwo enyika, pakanga paine huwandu hukuru hwekubhururuka kwemari, izvo zvakagadzira mukaha mukuru pakati pechitsinhanho chepamutemo chekuchinjana uye mwero wekuchinjana kwemusika mutema, uye izvi zvakatungamira kumikana inoshamisa yehuori muVenezuela. Uye dambudziko iroro harina kumbogadziriswa. Hurumende yakaedza kugadzirisa hupfumi hwakasiyana, asi hapana kana mumwe wavo akaenda kure zvakakwana kugadzirisa izvi kana kugadzirisa dambudziko iri. Uye saka, ndiyo mhando yemoyo wedambudziko rehupfumi mumaonero angu uye ndinofunga mumaonero evamwe vazhinji vezvehupfumi vakatarisa izvi.
Asi izvozvi, vakatarisana, pamusoro pedambudziko rehupfumi iri, dambudziko rezvematongerwo enyika, dambudziko iri rezvematongerwo enyika, chaizvo, izvo zvinogona kutungamira kuhondo yevagari senge mamiriro ezvinhu. Ndinofunga isu tinofanirwa kujeka pane izvi, uye ndosaka ndichifunga, zvisinei nezvaunofunga nezve zvakaitwa nehurumende yeMaduro mune zvehupfumi kana zvematongerwo enyika, hazvifanirwe kubvumira zvinhu kuti zviuye kumamiriro ezvinhu apo hondo yevagari vemo inotanga. . Ndokureva, sezvakataurwa naAlex, kune tariro iyi kudivi rehutongi hwaTrump uye yekupokana kwakanyanya-munhu anofanirwa kuyeuka kuti kune vanopikisa vari pakati nepakati vasingateedzere nzira iyi yekuita uye havasati vatsigira Guaido. semutungamiri wenyika. Asi kupikisa kwakasimba uku uye hutongi hwaTrump vari kutevera nzira yavari kutarisira kumukira kwemauto kunoparadza nyika zvachose kungaisa hupenyu hwemunhu wese munjodzi. Uye iyo US inotakura mutoro wese werudzi urwu rwemamiriro, kana zvikaitika.
SHARMINI PERIES: Zvakanaka, Alex. Ikozvino, hutongi hwaTrump hunoratidzika kunge hwakajeka pane pavari. Ko Congress neSeneti iripi, pane nhengo dziri mukati memiviri iyi dzinogona kutora chinzvimbo chakasiyana nekutonga kwaTrump, uye pane tariro here yekuti pane kupokana maererano nekubvumidza Guaido nenzira iyi? Uye pane chimwe chinhu chingaitwe neCongress? Harisi rimwe reiyi basa chairo rerudzi urwu rwemitemo yekune dzimwe nyika ndere kuCongress?
ALEX MAIN: Zvakanaka, kusvika padanho iro hutongi hwaTrump huri kuita zvisiri pamutemo, zvisiri pamutemo pasi pemutemo wepasirese, kupindira zvisiri pamutemo, Congress inofanirwa kuyedza kushanda secheki kune izvo uye kuita kuti hurumende izvidavirire. Nehurombo, huzhinji hwehutungamiriri hweCongress, ndinofunga, hwakangoipa paVenezuela, uye izvi ndezvezvikonzero zvakasiyana. Asi ini ndinofunga chimwe chezvakakosha ndechekuti hapana kusundira kumashure kubva kune chero zvikamu. Zvirokwazvo, vazhinji veVeVenezuelan vari muno muUS, diaspora, vanowanzofarira kupindira kweUS. Uye ikowo kukanganisa kwezvematongerwo enyika eFlorida, uko kwenguva yakareba, uye zvinosuruvarisa kuti inoramba ichingodaro, kunyanya iwo anochengetedza Latino zvikamu zvatinowana muSouth Florida uye mune dzimwe nzvimbo dzenyika, senge ine mashoma. kureba muNew Jersey, semuenzaniso. Vane simba guru kune dzimwe nhengo dzeCongress.
Uye nhengo idzi dzeCongress dzinowanzoungana muDare Rezvekunze Kwenyika uye Komiti yeSeneti Yekudyidzana Nezvekune dzimwe nyika, uko hongu, ivo vane simba rakawanda pamusoro pemutemo weUS muLatin America. Uye saka, kukosha kwezvikamu izvi kwave, sechinyakare, shanduko yehutongi muCuba, asi yakachinja zvakanyanya kuenda kuVenezuela, muchikamu nekuti Venezuela inoonekwa, ndinofunga zvisizvo, sekutsigira hurumende yeCuba neimwe nzira, asiwo nekuti zvakare. , nekuda kwehukuru hweVenezuela hunogona kuita pesvedzero yedunhu sesimba reoiri. Saka ivo vane chaizvo bullseye paVenezuela uye vagara kwenguva yakareba, uye vakaita basa rakakura kwazvo mukuumba mutemo.
Ikozvino, une mamwe matunhu anofambira mberi akapokana, chaizvo, vese Obama naTrump, pane mamwe marongero akananga kuVenezuela, uye kunyanya zvirango, izvo zvavakaona nemazvo kuti zvinokuvadza kune vanhuwo zvavo veVenezuel, asi zvakare zvichiva nemhedzisiro muVenezuela uye zvichingodaro. Zvematongerwo enyika zveVenezuela, uye rudzi rwekushandira kusimudzira masimba akaomarara pamativi ese ezvematongerwo enyika, nokudaro zvichikanganisa kuedza kuita nhaurirano. Uye kwave nekuyedza kwakaderedzwa kare nezvikamu zvakaomarara, nerutsigiro kubva kune vakaoma musoro vakaita saSenator Marco Rubio, uye pane kuedza kutsva kuri kuitika. Uye zvinosuruvarisa, chinzvimbo chiri kutorwa neUS, uye icho cheBrazil chatevera uye Canada yatevera izvozvi, Ecuador zvakare, inoisa panjodzi yekuisa zvinhu mune zvematongerwo enyika.
Zvirokwazvo, kune njodzi yehondo yevagari vemo, kunyanya kana paine kutyora chaiko mukati memauto. Uye izvo zvinogona kuitika, uye zvinhu zvinogona kuita zvechisimba, kushata uye zvinogona kukanganisa zvakanyanya, kwete kuvanhu veVenezuela chete, asi chaizvo mudunhu reLatin America. Ingave iine spillover mhedzisiro.
SHARMINI PERIES: Greg, basa remauto nderei izvozvi? Uye zvakawanda zvinozorora nemauto uye maitiro avachaita. Kare vakasarudza kuchengetedza runyararo uye mhirizhonga shoma inobvira. Munofunga kuti zvichadaro here?
GREG WILPERT: Zvakanaka, zvakaoma kutaura. Ndakataura muchikamu chakapfuura kuti ndinofunga kuti chinosiyana, hongu, zvichienderana nenzvimbo, kwandinofunga kuti vakuru vemauto vangangobata naMaduro, asi isu hatizive. Chikuru chisingazivikanwe ndechekuti vakuru vepakati nevepasi vangangoronga chimwe chinhu kupokana naMaduro. Kungowanda kwacho, zvakaoma zvikuru kuziva zvinofungwa nemunhu wese. Uye vari kutamburawo nedambudziko rehupfumi, uye saka vamwe vavo vanogona kukurudzirwa nekuda kwaizvozvo. Uyezve, ivo havasi kubatsirwa kubva-vazhinji vavo vari kubatsirwa nehuwori, asi vamwe vacho havadaro, nekuti havakwanise kuwana iwo marudzi emabhenefiti. Kana kuti vamwe vangasava nehanya nazvo, votaura kuti, “Zvakanaka, tinogona kuita mari yakawanda pasi pehurumende inopikisa ine huori, zvinova zvinogoneka.
Saka isu hatingoziva zvichaitika kune avo. Ndinofunga kuti ndiwo mubvunzo mukuru. Asi chinhu chikuru, chandinofunga, ndechekuti vanopikisa vanoda chaizvo kupengenuka muVenezuela uye kutaurirana nehurumende yeMaduro. Hurumende yeMaduro yakazvipira kutaurirana nevanopikisa. Sezvineiwo, sekutaura kwandaita, kune vanopikisa vane mwero vakazvipira kutaurirana. Uye ini ndinofunga kuti hurumende inofanirwawo kuita kubvumirana chaiko, ndinoreva mupfungwa yekuti inofanirwa kuziva kuti mamiriro ezvinhu ane ngozi sei. Ini ndinofunga Maduro haafanire kungotenda asina chokwadi kuti zvese zvichanaka. Iyi inyaya yakakomba kwazvo panguva ino, ndinofunga, uye zvinoreva kuti kuitira kudzivirira kudeurwa kweropa, zvinoreva kubvuma chimwe chinhu kune vanopikisa. Ndiwo maonero angu. Nekuti kana vakasadaro, tinogona kupinda, sekutaura kwandakaita naAlex, mumamiriro ehondo yevagari vemo.
SHARMINI PERIES: Izvozvo zvinoratidzika sei, kubvuma kune vanopikisa?
GREG WILPERT: Zvakaoma kutaura. Ndinoreva, zvinogona kutobatanidza imwe sarudzo yemutungamiri wenyika, pamwe. Ndinoreva, chimwe chinhu chakadaro, chimwe chinhu chinoshamisa. Ndinoziva kuti zvinonzwika kupenga kuti vamwe vanhu vari kudivi reChavista vafungisise, asi inofanira kunge iri shanduko inogadziriswa, iyo ingave, ndinofunga, kana paine sarudzo. Kunyange kana vanopikisa vaizokunda, hazvingarevi kurasikirwa zvachose kwesimba. Vachiri nemamwe masangano akawanda. Ingave shanduko inogadziriswa, asi kana iyo nzira iyo vanopikisa zvakanyanya uye nzira iri kutsvagwa nehutongi hwaTrump ndeyekuzorora kwakakwana. Vanoda kubvisa, kupukuta Chavismo kubva pachiso chenyika, uye izvo zvingangoitika chete nekudeura ropa. Ndosaka ndiri kuti kuitira kudzivirira izvozvo, zvinenge zvoreva kuwirirana kunofanira kuitwa nehurumende.
SHARMINI PERIES: Zvakanaka, Alex. Rega ndikupe shoko rekupedzisira. Nekuda kweWashington, uye kana paine vanhu muCongress vanoda kunzvenga kudeura ropa uye nekuipa kwemamiriro ezvinhu muVenezuela, chii chinofanira kuitika izvozvi?
ALEX MAIN: Zvakanaka, vanhu vazhinji vanofanirwa kuve vakateerera muCongress, nekuti sezvandakataura, zvinosuwisa, vakabvumira rudzi rwevane mapapiro ekurudyi vane hurongwa hwekupindira muLatin America kuve nepamusoro munhaurirano yeLatin America, nyatso gadzira iyo policy agenda. Saka panongoda kuve nekubatanidzwa kwakanyanya kwevanofambira mberi. Vaifanira kunge vakambobatanidzwa kare, uye vaitaura pano neapo. Asi chaizvo, zvatiri kuona izvozvi, pakanga paine tsigiro yakawandisa yekuedza kudzikamisa kwaObama kwakabva kune vazhinji veDemocrats uye kunyange akati wandei maRepublicans. Uye izvo zvaive pachena zvaive zvine musoro, zvine musoro mutemo. Uye zvakadaro, isu hatisi kuzviona izvo munyaya yeVenezuela. Vanhu vakafuratira, havasati vanzwa chero chikonzero, chero kumanikidzwa kuita kudaro.
Asi isu tiri kuona moto chaiwo, mamiriro anogona kuita dambudziko rakakura, pakupedzisira, kuUnited States. Iwe unodenha Venezuela, unopedzisira wakanganisa, kutaura chokwadi, chikamu chikuru chedunhu, zvirokwazvo dunhu reAndean. Uye ndicho chinhu chinofanirwa kunetsa, uye nhengo dzeCongress dzinofanirwa kuda kufungidzira izvo zvatinganyatso ratidza semaitiro ekugadzirisa ari kushandiswa nehutongi hwaTrump.
SHARMINI PERIES: Zvese zvakanaka. Isu pano paThe Real News ticharamba tiine nhaurirano iyi pamusoro pezviri kuitika muVenezuela uye zvingaitwe nezvazvo. Ndanga ndichitaura naAlex Main, ndiye Director weInternational Policy paCentre for Economic Policy uye Research muWashington, DC. Uye ndanga ndichitaura neManaging Edhita edu pano paThe Real News Network. Uye bhuku rake, Kuchinja Venezuela neKutora Simba, rinofanira kucherechedzwa mumamiriro ezvinhu aya. Ndinokutendai zvikuru nekubatana nesu, vese Alex naGreg.
GREG WILPERT: Ndatenda.
ALEX MAIN: Ndatenda.
SHARMINI PERIES: Uye tichaenderera mberi nenhaurirano iyi mangwana pano paThe Real News Network, saka batana nesu uye tinokutendai nekubatana nesu.
Ndapota Batsira ZNet neZ Magazine
Nekuda kwematambudziko ehurongwa hwedu atakangokwanisa kugadzirisa, papfuura gore kubva patakapedzisira kuunganidza homwe. Nekuda kweizvozvo, tinoda rubatsiro rwako kupfuura nakare kose kuti urambe uchiunza rumwe ruzivo rwawave uchitsvaga kwemakore makumi matatu.
Z inopa iyo inonyanya kukosha nhau dzenharaunda dzatinogona, asi mukutonga izvo zvinobatsira, kusiyana nemamwe akawanda masosi tinosimbisa chiono, zano, uye kukosha kwemuratidziri. Kana tichitaura naTrump, semuenzaniso, ndezvekutsvaga nzira dzinopfuura Trump, kwete kungodzokorora, kakawanda, anotyisa sei. Uye zvimwe chetezvo ndezvekutarisa kwedu kudziya kwepasirese, hurombo, kusaenzana, rusaruraganda, kusarurana, nekugadzira hondo. Chekutanga chedu nguva dzose ndechekuti izvo zvatinopa zvine mukana wekubatsira kuona zvekuita, uye nzira yekuzviita nayo.
Mukugadzirisa matambudziko edu ehurongwa, takagadziridza sisitimu yedu kuti ive inosimudzira uye kupa mipiro kuve nyore. Kwanga kuri kuita kwenguva refu asi isu tine tariro yekuti zvichaita kuti zvive nyore kuti munhu wese atibatsire kukura. Kana uine dambudziko, tapota tizivise pakarepo. Isu tinoda kupinza pane chero matambudziko kuti tive nechokwadi chekuti system inogona kuramba iri nyore kushandisa kune wese munhu.
Nzira yakanakisa yekubatsira, zvisinei, ndeyekuva muchengeti wepamwedzi kana wegore. Vatsigiri vanogona kutaura, kutumira mablogiki, uye kugamuchira mhinduro yehusiku neemail yakananga.
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Kune vanhu vekuUS, dambudziko renguva refu nderekuti kune ruzivo rushoma rwechokwadi nezve dzimwe nzvimbo munyika. Isu takanyanya kuUS-pakati, uye vazhinji vane nzira dzekufamba kune dzimwe nzvimbo vanonyanya mapoka maviri, vashanyi vanorova nzvimbo dzepamusoro uye zvebhizinesi / zvemakambani zvinotarisa pane imwe huru nyaya: purofiti.
Pandakanga ndiri mudzidzi wechikoro chechikoro chechikoro chechikoro chechikoro chechikoro chechikoro chechikoro chechikoro chechikoro chechikoro chechikoro chechikoro chechikoro chechikoro chechikoro chechikoro chechikoro chepamusoro ndaitarisa kuLatin America-zvidzidzo zvenhoroondo, zvidzidzo zvemutauro, nezvimwewo. Panguva yandakanga ndava mumakore angu ekupedzisira e20, ndakaona kuti zvizhinji zvezvandakadzidziswa zvakanga zvisina maturo, zvisina kururama, kana kuti zvakarerekera zvachose munzira. izvo zvakaita kuti kunzwisisa nharaunda yacho kuve kusingabviri. Pakupedzisira, makore akati gare gare, ndakagara muLatin Amerca, kwandakasvika pakuona zvakananga zvandaida kudzidza. Maonero aive akasiyana zvakanyanya, hongu, uye ndakasvika pakuona mhedzisiro yemitemo yeUS uye zviito muLatin Amerca. Kwakanga kuri kuvhunduka, pakutanga.
Ndine shamwari yangu muBrazil yave iri gweta revashandi uye inofarira zvinhu zvakadaro. Haasi kupokana, asi anoshanda. Paakanyora nezveVenezuela mazuva maviri apfuura, akati chikamu chakashata chezviitiko kufa kwevanhu gumi nevatanhatu. Tsitsi dzake netsitsi dzaive dzakangwara uye dzakapusa, mhinduro yemunhu kune mamiriro ekupererwa. Izvi hazvisi izvo zvakanyanya kukosha kune vagadziri vemitemo veUS uye zvido zvemakambani, uye zvirokwazvo kwete tarisiro yaElliott Abrams achangounzwa mubhodhi mukutonga kwaTrump kubata neVenezuela. Abrams ane rekodhi refu yekuchinja kwehutongi, kupindira kwemauto, uye mhirizhonga muLatin America, kudzokera kunguva yeReagan Iran-Contra zviitiko muCentral America izvo zvakaita basa guru mukuparadza El Salvador neNicaragua.
Kwatiri muUS, maitiro ekuwana ruzivo chairwo munyika uye muLatin America inyaya hombe, uye kuziva hutongi hwemamwe marudzi kunofanirwa kuve pakati. Kuita zvinhu zviviri izvi hazviitike nokuzvidira.
Iwe unoziva, mazwi akadai se "udzvanyiriri" anokandwa kunze nguva dzese nehurumende yeUS kana ichitaura nezveVenezuela, kunyangwe vezvenhau vakawira mumusungo iwoyo. Isu hatishandise mutauro wakadaro kana mutungamiri wedu pachedu akavhara hurumende kuburikidza nefiat kweanopfuura mwedzi. Kunyangwe iyi tsanangudzo inotaura zvakawanda nezve pfungwa inoita kuti kunzwisisa nyika nenyika yedu kuve basa rakaoma.