Umthombo: Counterpunch
UJoe Emersberger uxoxisane noJustin Podur mayelana neyakhe incwadi entsha mayelana nokungqubuzana abambalwa abaqondayo ngenxa, phakathi kwezinye izinto, izifundiswa “zama-Afrika”.
UJoe Emersberger: Incwadi yakho ihloselwe ukuqonda impi yase-DR Congo eyabulala abantu abalinganiselwa ezigidini ezinhlanu kusukela ngo-5.
U-Justin Podur: Ngibona sengathi umcimbi weminyaka eyishumi nanhlanu owaqala ngo-1990 ngesikhathi i-RPF [eholwa nguPaul Kagame] ihlasela iRwanda. Lokho kwaphetha, ngokungangabazeki, esikhathini esithile kusukela ngo-2003 kuya ku-2006. Kwakungabantu abafanayo ababelwela izizathu ezifanayo. Kwaba namakhefu, awazange abe made kakhulu ekulweni.
Mina: Incwadi yakho ichitha isikhathi esiningi iphikisa "ama-Afrika" - ochwepheshe okuthiwa bafana nochwepheshe baseMpumalanga Ephakathi u-Edward Said ababiza ngokuthi "Orientalists".
I-Podur: Uthe akaliqambanga leli gama. Yilokho labo bantu ababezibiza ngakho - isiko laqala eqenjini lezazi uNapoleon aliletha eGibhithe lapho ehlasela. Lelo siko laqhubeka lokuthi izazi zaseNtshonalanga kube yizo ezazichaza futhi zichaze iMpumalanga. Emashumini eminyaka amuva nje, izazi ezivela ku-Aime Cesaire kanye noChinua Achebe kuya ku-Gayatri Spivak (kanye no-Edward Said) baye baphikisana ngokuthi "Cha, abantu besifunda bangazikhulumela".
Ngaqala ukufunda nge-Congo Wars njengomuntu oyinxele owayezama ukubamba ukuthi kwenzekani, ngazi ukuthi kukhona lo mlando omkhulu wase-US - kanye neCanada (wonke umuntu uyazi ngoRomeo Dallaire indima yakhe okuxoxwa ngayo kabanzi encwadini yami). Ngenza lokho cishe abantu abaningi abakwenzayo lapho bezama ukuqonda impi: Ngathatha uchungechunge lwezincwadi zalezi zifundiswa zase-Afrika.
Okokuqala nje ngangifundela amaqiniso: ubani owenzeni kubani. Kodwa ngaso sonke isikhathi kwakunezinye izinto engangiziqaphela: indlela ababekhuluma ngayo ngeqembu elithile lesizwe elihlobene nolunye, indlela ababechaza ngayo ngokomzimba abaholi ababesekela i-US ngokumelene nalabo ababengeyena. Ngibone ukuthi ukuze ngiyikhulume kahle le ndaba kufanele ngiveze ubandlululo lobuhlanga nokunye kwabantu abaningi asebebhale ngayo kuze kube manje.
Mina: Uchaza ukusetshenziswa komlando obudedengu ohlanganiswe nokucwasa ngamaningi ama-Afrika. Uphinde wagxila kakhulu ekubulaweni kukaPatrice Lumumba ngo-1960 kanye nokuchotshozwa komkhankaso wakhe wokuguqula intando yeningi eCongo.
I-Podur: Bengifuna ukukhuluma ngalokho ngoba ama-Afrika aveza uLumumba njengomholi omubi noma onephutha elibulalayo. Ekufundeni kwami kokuqala le mibhalo, ngacabanga ukuthi lezi zithombe zinembile. Ubani ongenaphutha? Kodwa lapho ngibheka isimangalo ngasinye- amaphutha okusolwa, akukho neyodwa yawo eyabambelela ngokuqinile. Kukhona owabulala amaBaluba [omunye wezizwe esifundazweni saseKatanga] kodwa empeleni yisitha sakhe, uMoise Tshombe, owakwenza lokho kwathi abaseNtshonalanga bakugxisha eLumumba. Kunenani elikhulu lezinto ezinjalo. Kukhona nokuqagela ukuthi “ukube waphila ngabe usengundlovukayiphikiswa”. Leyo enye i-Africanist classic. Kwakumele sibulale umuntu ngoba kungenzeka enze into embi ngomuso.
Kodwa uma uqonda umongo ngaleso sikhathi kuyabonakala ukuthi bambulaleleni. Kwakungengenxa yokuthi wayenephutha, kwakungenxa yokuthi wayengaphambi kwesikhathi sama-impiriyali ayephila kuso. Wayezama ukufaka izinsiza ezinkulu zaseCongo ngaphansi kokulawulwa ngentando yeningi. Akazange ashibilike wabulawa izitha zendawo. Wayenabalandeli abaningi nabajule kakhulu, ikakhulukazi esifundazweni saseMpumalanga, futhi labo bantu, amaLumumbists, baqhubeka nokulwa iminyaka emine ngaphezulu. Eqinisweni omunye umholi, uPierre Mulele, walwa iminyaka engu-4 ngaphezulu.
I-US yayilokhu ithululela izinsiza ezengeziwe ukuze iqinisekise ukuthi amaLumumbists ayachotshozwa. Bakwenza lokho cishe iminyaka eyishumi. Akubanga ngengozi. Kwakuhlelekile - enye yezinhlelo ezinkulu zenqubomgomo yezangaphandle yase-US emazingeni aphezulu. Konke kusezintambo, uBudlelwane Bangaphandle base-United States, ezinye zazo ezikhishwe ngo-2014. Babenolwazi lwepolitiki yaseCongo ngezinga elincane lemininingwane. Babazi osopolitiki bendawo, izikhundla zabo ezindabeni ezahlukene nakwenye. Izikhulu zase-US amagama azo ozowabona akulezi zintambo: Eisenhower, Kennedy, Harriman…. Iwuphikisa ngempela umbono we-Afrika, noma i-Congo ngokuvamile, njengohlobo oluthile lwamanzi angemuva angenamsebenzi. Ama-imperialists awalwenzi lolu hlobo lokuhlela nomsebenzi onemininingwane mayelana ne-backwater - angicabangi nokuthi ikhona into efana ne-backwater, yama-imperialists anenhloso yokulawula umhlaba wonke noma ngaphezulu, kusukela uCecil Rhodes. (umAfrika wokuqala) ngokusobala wabheka phezulu esibhakabhakeni wakhala ngokuthi wayengenakunqoba izinkanyezi.
Mina: Futhi incwadi yakho idingida omashiqela bangemva kwenkululeko abavele baba amathuluzi abalulekile enqubomgomo yase-US: Kagame, Mobutu, Amin, Obote. Ugxile eCongo kodwa ukwenza lokho bekufanele uxoxe kabanzi ngeRwanda ne-Uganda. Ungakwazi yini ukudlula uhlobo lokufa kwabantu laba? Ngiyafisa ukwazi futhi ukuthi kungani u-Idi Amin (owathatha izintambo ngokusekelwa e-UK) efike waba yisilomo esibi kakhulu.
I-Podur: Kunzima ukubala ukufa kodwa ungakwenza ngezimpi. UMobutu isibonelo, kwaba nezimpi ezimbili zokumketula ngeminyaka yawo-1970 ezabekwa phansi. Lawo kwakungamabutho aphiko lwesokudla. Lezo zazizinkulu kakhulu futhi cishe amashumi ezinkulungwane abulawa. Waphatha iminyaka engu-30 - kusukela ngo-1961 kwaze kwaba ngu-1996. Wayenesikhathi eside. Wayaziwa nangomqondo we-kleptocracy. Lokho kuvela kuMobutu.
U-Amin wayemubi ngempela, enecala lokufa kwamakhulu ezinkulungwane ezimpini eziphikisana nezimpi enyakatho ye-Uganda. Ngicabanga ukuthi abantu bangase bamazi kangcono ngoba wavumela abaduni bezimoto ukuthi bafike e-Uganda ngo-1976. Amakhomando akwa-Israel ahlenga futhi kwaba indaba enkulu ngoba ama-commandos akwa-Israel aphumelela. Mhlawumbe ukuwela ama-Israel kwaba esinye sezizathu ezenza abe nedumela elibi. Waphinde waxosha amaNdiya e-Uganda, okwadala ukuhlupheka nenzondo enkulu kuye. U-Amin waketulwa yiTanzania ngo-1979.
Kodwa kwabe sekuqala impi yombango e-Uganda phakathi kuka-Obote noMuseveni. Lokho kwabizwa ngokuthi iMpi Yase-Uganda Yehlathi (1980-86). UMuseveni wayinqoba leyo mpi. Akekho owazi amanani aqondile abulawa ngangokunokwenzeka, kodwa kungenzeka ukuthi kwaba ingxenye yesigidi eyafa kuleyo mpi. Akekho okhuluma ngakho, kodwa izinombolo ezingaqhathaniswa nesibhicongo saseRwanda.
Mina: Lolo hlobo lusiholela kuKagame. Omashiqela ngokuvamile bayazabalaza ukuze baziphendulele emhlabeni, kodwa lo mfana empeleni waphumelela ekudaleni iningi ayebusa phezu kwalo, ngokuyisisekelo ebabeka benecala lokuqothula uhlanga.
I-Podur: Kimina kuwumsebenzi wenkulumo-ze ophumelele kakhulu ngoba, njengoba usho, iningi lezwe manje selibonwa umhlaba wonke njengelinecala futhi elifanele ubugqila obungapheli.
Izehlakalo zango-1994 engixoxa ngazo encwadini, zifaka phakathi ukubulawa kohlanga lwamaTutsi ngamasosha angamaHutu kodwa kanye nezibhicongo ze-RPF [eholwa nguKagame] zezakhamuzi zamaTutsi namaHutu kulo lonke elaseRwanda. I-RPF yabe isilandela laba baseRwanda ababalekela eCongo babulala amakhulu ezinkulungwane - iningi labo okungamaHutu kodwa namanye amaqembu abantu baseRwanda nabaseCongo. Zonke lezi zenzakalo ngokuvamile kukhulunywa ngazo ngokwengqikithi yobubi okuthiwa buyingqayizivele bamaHutu. Igcina isetshenziselwe ukuthethelela ubushiqela obungapheli bukaKagame. Kuyinto emangalisayo.
JE: U-Ed Herman noDavid Peterson bakuthinta lokhu encwadini yabo ethi “The Politics of Genocide” Mhlawumbe ungabheka ezinye zezilinganiso eziphathelene nokubulawa kwabantu ngo-1994.
I-Podur: Ngizama ukugwema, futhi ngicabanga ukuthi empeleni uHerman noPeterson nabo bawugwema, umqondo wokuthi kukhona uhlobo oluthile lwencwadi. Lokho kuyiqembu elikhulu lama-Afrika - ingxenye enkulu yalokho abakwenzayo neRwanda, ukubala izinombolo zamaHutu abulawa amaTutsi namaTutsi abulawa amaHutu kanye nokulinganisa ukufa ngokobuhlanga. Bathi amaTutsi angu-800,000 abulawa, futhi kubonakala sengathi uKagame ebulala amaHutu angaphansi kuka-800,000, unomusa omkhulu, unesihe. Ngilokhu ngiphindaphinda le nkulumo encwadini: ama-Afrika abonakala ecabanga ukuthi "abangu-800,000 bokuqala bakhululekile".
Izilinganiso zokufa azisekelwe emizimbeni yokubala noma ocwaningweni lwamasampula eqoqo olufana no I-Lancet ivame ukushicilelwa e-DRC, Iraq, njll. Isekelwe kubantu abalahlekile. Lena indlela amaTutsi amaningi ayekhona ngokobalo (olulungisiwe). Leli inani elabonakala emakamu ababaleki. Umehluko phakathi kwalokhu okubili kufanele kube inombolo ebulewe. UHerman noPeterson (nabanye abafana noDavenport noStam) bathi ngokusekelwe kuleyo ndlela asazi ukuthi ubani owababulala. Baphinde baphawula ukuthi maningi amaHutu afa kunama-Afrika akhuluma ngawo, kodwa lokho kulindelekile ngoba bebebaningi. Nangoba amasosha ayephethe ucelemba ayengazi ukuthi abulala bani. Ayebulala noma ubani ofika esivimbelweni somgwaqo, avimbe indawo abulale wonke umuntu ongaphakathi kuyo. Phakathi kwezi-500,000 - 800,000 zabulawa yilezi zidlamlilo, kuyilapho i-RPF iqhuba izibhicongo ezinkulu ezindaweni ezandayo ezazilawula. Kukhona izilinganiso ezifinyelela esigidini, cishe ingxenye yawo ngamaHutu.
Mina: Uphinde waphawula ukuthi izibhicongo zagqugquzelwa ukuhlasela kukaKagame okwase kwenzeka ngempela. E-US, kwakukhona ubugebengu obunenzondo ngokumelene nezakhamuzi zase-Arab kanye namaSulumane zase-US ekuphenduleni ukuqhuma kwebhomu le-9/11. Singacabanga inzondo yobuhlanga eyayizogqugquzelwa ukube uBin Laden wayezimisele ngokuketula uhulumeni wase-US. Kodwa uKagame uthola ukudlula yize ukufuna kwakhe amandla kwagqugquzela ukubulawa kwabantu kwasekuqaleni. Uphinde ukhulume ngezimangalo ezingalawuleki mayelana nenani labaphehli bezibhicongo. UKagame uthe izigilamkhuba eziwu-3 million wamemezela ukuthi wonke umuntu wesilisa omdala ongumHutu ungumsolwa.
I-Podur: Impela. Kwakukhona amashumi ezinkulungwane zabenzi bobubi, cishe 30 ukuze 40 izinkulungwane. Kuningi lokho. Ngicabanga ukuthi isilinganiso esiphezulu sezazi ngesabenzi bobubi abangu-200,000. Ingishaya kakhulu kodwa kungenzeka. Nokho i inani labantu ngesikhathi sokuhlasela kwe-RPF ngo-1990 kwakusondele ezigidini ezingu-7 (izigidi ezingu-13 namuhla). Umqondo uwukuthi bonke babenecala. Futhi uma ucabanga ngezibalo zabantu kanye neminyaka yobudala, lawa ngamazwe asemasha, iningi lawo lalingekho ngisho nakuphila ngo-1994. Kodwa kunomzamo omkhulu wokugcina umqondo wokuba necala lamaHutu uphila.
Mina: Kuyindlela yokuthethelela ukubusa kondlovukayiphikiswa kweningi.
I-Podur: Nokuthethelela ukubulawa kwe-RPF. Ngenkathi amasosha ebulala amaTutsi, i-RPF nayo yayiqoqa futhi ibulala amashumi ezinkulungwane zamaHutu, iwabizela emihlanganweni futhi ewashaya ngezinduku aze afe. Lokhu kubhalwe kahle nguJudi Rever encwadini yakhe "Ekudumiseni Igazi”, futhi ngenye intatheli uStephen Smith abalinganiselwa ku-40,000 babulawa yi-RPF ngalesi sikhathi kwathi abanye abayi-150,000 babulawa eRwanda yi-RPF ngonyaka olandelayo. Ngakho-ke ama-Afrika athi "yebo noma yini, awukwazi ukuqhathanisa lokho nabangu-800,000 ababulawa amaHutu" Ngakho-ke abantu abangu-190,000 bakhululekile. Kwabe sekuba nomqedazwe wekholera emakamu ababaleki amaHutu eCongo owabulala amashumi ezinkulungwane. Khona-ke uKagame uhlasela iCongo ngo-1996 ukuze azingele amaHutu asele abaleka eRwanda futhi wabulala 500, 000 kuya ku-600,000, mhlawumbe ngaphezulu. Ukwenziwa amademoni kwabantu abangamaHutu njengabanecala kukhona ukuze kulungiswe leli zinga lokubulawa kwabantu abaningi kanye nobushiqela obuphelele. AmaJalimane ayesekela kakhulu ubuNazi. E-US, abamhlophe baseMelika babebamba amapikiniki ukuze babukele i-lynching. Kodwa eJalimane nase-US, kunabantu abafunda izincwadi zama-Afrika abakholelwa ukuthi kukhona okubi okuyingqayizivele ngeqembu labantu ababizwa ngamaHutu ezweni elibizwa ngokuthi iRwanda abangasoze bakholwe ngabo.
Mina: Futhi ukubuyela eLumumba, kusebenza inhloso yokuphihliza noma yiliphi ithuba lentuthuko yentando yeningi, futhi kusiza ukuphangwa kwezinsiza.
I-Podur: Iphuzu elikhulu ebengifuna ukuliveza ukuthi ngo-1960 iNingizimu Afrika iyizwe lobandlululo. I-US futhi iwuhlobo lombuso wobandlululo. Babengeke bavumele iRiphabhulikhi yentando yeningi e-Congo - i-republic enkulu, ecebile, ephakathi nendawo yentando yeningi yabantu abamnyama engase ibambe iqhaza elikhulu ngokwepolitiki ekukhululeni izwekazi lonke.
Nginesahluko mayelana nemisebenzi kaChe Guevara eCongo. UGuevara wayedangele kancane eCongo. Empeleni ngicabanga ukuthi wayengenathemba kakhulu ngalokho ababekwazi ukukwenza lapho. Abantu bayakhohlwa ukuthi wenza izibalo zokuya khona. Wayengaya noma yikuphi. Kodwa ngo-1964 wanquma ukuthi leyo kwakuyindawo yamasu okufanele aye kuyo, ukuthi impi ebaluleke kakhulu emhlabeni yokulwa ne-imperialism yayiqhutshwa amaLumumbists empumalanga yeCongo. Yilapho okwakudingeka abe khona. Lokho kusitshela okuthile.
I-ZNetwork ixhaswa kuphela ngokuphana kwabafundi bayo.
Nikela
1 Amazwana
I-interview enhle kakhulu. Ngiyaqaphela ukuthi incwadi enkulu ebizayo ekhuluma nge-Afrika ngokuvamile ayikhethwa abantu abangewona ochwepheshe, kodwa “ngiyiqashisile” incwadi ezohlala kukhompyutha yami/kwi-kindle kuze kube uSepthemba 5. Ingaphezu kwamakhasi angu-500, ngakho-ke anginayo. isikhathi esiningi futhi ngizobeka amanye amaphrojekthi eceleni kuze kube yileso sikhathi ngangokunokwenzeka ukuze ngifunde okuningi ngangokunokwenzeka.
“Nginguchwepheshe waseLatin America” kodwa ngizamile ukuqonda okuningi ngangokunokwenzeka nge-Afrika, futhi, umsebenzi ongenakwenzeka futhi omkhulu, engiwaziyo. Kodwa incwadi kaPoder ibonakala ibalulekile.
Kuyathakazelisa ukuthi le ngxoxo iphetha ngokubhekisela emisebenzini kaChe Guevara e-Afrika.
Angithandi i-hyperbole, kodwa kubonakala sengathi umhlaba wethu usesikhathini esiyinselelo kakhulu futhi sihluke kakhulu, kodwa sisesintu esisodwa nokuqonda isikhathi sethu nendawo kusho ukuthi sidinga ukuqonda okuthile kokuqala nokwethembeka. umhlaba uwonke.
Ngokufanelekile, kusukela ekufundeni inhlolokhono nasekufundeni u-Justin Podur isikhathi esithile kule webhusayithi, le ncwadi ibonakala ibaluleke ngokukhethekile. Ngaphezu kwalokho, kulapho ujenene omkhulu ethatha khona isimo somuntu siqu, ngiyazi umndeni owaphunyuka eRwanda futhi lolu uhlobo lwesipiliyoni oludala ukuhlobana empilweni yomuntu eqhelelene ne-Afrika uqobo.