Omar Barghouti murwiri uye munyori anogara muPalestine. Aive mumwe wevamiriri vekutanga veBoycott, Divestment, Sanctions strategy inopokana nekugara kweIsrael uye mitemo yerusaruraganda. Aive mumwe wevakurukuri veIsrael Apartheid Week (IAW) 2009. Ndakamubvunzurudza muToronto musi wa2 Kurume 2009.
Justin Podur (JP): Zvimwe tinofanira kutanga nerondedzero yekudanwa kweVakomana, Divestment, uye Zvirango (BDS), uye zvinodiwa pakufona.
Omar Barghouti (OB): Kudanwa kweBDS kunobva pakuongorora kuti kudzvanyirirwa kwevaPalestine kune mafomu matatu akakosha. Kutanga, kutorwa uye kuumbwa kwenyika idzo dzakatorwa kubva 1967. Chechipiri, kunyimwa kodzero yekudzoka vapoteri vePalestine vakadzingwa nechisimba muna 1948 uye kubvira. Chechitatu, hurongwa hwerusarura rwemarudzi pamusoro pevagari vePalestine veIsrael. Chinodiwa ndechekugumisa kusarongeka uku: kugumisa kugarwa kwenyika dzakatorwa muna 1967, kubvumidza kodzero yekudzokera kuvapoteri vePalestine, uye kugumisa hurongwa hwehudzvanyiriri hunopesana nevagari vePalestine veIsrael.
Kushevedzera kunokwezva nzanga yePalestine muzvikamu zvese zvitatu zvevanhu vePalestine, uye ndiyo yekutanga kufona mumakumi emakore kuti vawane mvumo yezvikamu zvese izvi. Kubva zvibvumirano zveOslo zve1993, "vanhu vePalestine" yakatsanangurwa patsva kuti ibatanidze chete chikamu chekutanga, avo vanogara muOccupied West Bank neGaza Strip. Asi izvi hazvibatanidzi vagari vePalestine veIsrael uye vapoteri, vanoumba ruzhinji rwePalestine. Iwe uchanzwa kusarudzika uku paunonzwa mhinduro dzekuvhotera senge: "60% yePalestine inotsigira Hamas" - sarudzo ichange yangoitika kuWest Bank neGaza.
Iyo BDS inodaidzira kuti masangano arambe, kupatsanurwa, uye zvirango kudzamara Israel yanyatsotevedzera mutemo wepasi rose nemisimboti yekodzero dzevanhu.
Chikamu chakakosha cheBDS call ndechekuti inotora kodzero-yakavakirwa, kwete mhinduro-yakavakirwa nzira. Iyo haitsigire sarudzo yehurumende imwe chete kana mbiri-nyika, kungogara kwekodzero dzekodzero, pasina iyo hapazombovi nerunyararo uye rusingaperi. Ndosaka ichitsigirwa nezvikamu zvese zvitatu zvevanhu vePalestine.
Chimwe chinhu ndechekuti BDS inodaidza zvikumbiro zvakajeka kune veIsrael vane hana kuti vabatane nesu mukurwira kupedza kusarongeka. Izvo hazvina mhirizhonga, asi zvine rutsigiro, zvirinani pabepa, rezvematongerwo enyika ese emapato ePalestine.
JP: Nekutanga nhasi, wapa mharidzo kuYork University's Center for International Security Studies (YCISS) uchiitirana nharo nezvekuramba zvidzidzo. Imwe yenharo dzako yakanga iri yokuti kune miganhu kurusununguko rwedzidzo, kuti rusununguko rwedzidzo runodzvinyirirwa nedzimwe kodzero, dzakadai sekodzero youpenyu. Iwe unofunga kuti iyi nharo yemiganhu yerusununguko rwedzidzo yakakosha here kutsigira kuramwa kwevadzidzi? Izvi zvinoreva here kuti kana iwe uri absolutist pakusununguka kutaura, haugone kutsigira kuramwa kwezvidzidzo?
OB: Sezvo kuri kuramba kwemasangano kwete kurambwa kwemunhu ega, hapana dambudziko nekukoka vadzidzi veIsrael kuti vataure zvavanofunga. Izvo hazvingatadzise chero munhu weIsrael mudzidzi kutaura pfungwa dzake, kana kuenda kumusangano, chero vasingaite zviri pamutemo. inomirira chero sangano redzidzo reIsrael. Saka pachiso harisi dambudziko. Asi zvinotsvaga kudimburwa hukama hwemasangano, zvibvumirano zvekutsvagisa, uye zvirongwa zvekutsinhana, saka kana iwe uchifunga kuti kuchinjana uku kwakakosha kune rusununguko rwedzidzo, kuvabvisa kunoderedza rusununguko rwedzidzo neimwe nzira. Saka absolutist haangakwanise kuitsigira.
Sezvineiwo, vakasununguka vanopokana zvakanyanya neBDS pazvikonzero zverusununguko rwedzidzo havana kuita kudongorera apo Birzeit University pedyo neRamallah yakavharwa kweanoda kusvika makore mana. Havana kutaura chero chinhu apo Islamic University muGaza yakabhombwa muna Zvita wapfuura. Pane kuchema kunopesana neBDS nekuda kweiyo fungidziro yerusununguko rwedzidzo iyo inogona kudzikiswa kana zano racho rikabudirira, asi hapana kuchema kwakadaro kubva kuzvikamu zvakafanana zvechokwadi kudzvinyirirwa kwerusununguko rwedzidzo kunoitika. Pane mhedziso mbiri munhu anogona kutora kubva pane izvi. Pamwe vanhu ava vanyengeri, kana kuti vanoona maPalestine sevasiri vanhu vakakwana uye rusununguko rwedzidzo rungori rwevanhu vakazara, uye "vasiri vachena" havafanirwe kushanda. Izvo zviviri ndizvo chaizvo zvinogoneka.
JP: BDS, zano rakanangana nekupatsanura Israeri, rinouya panguva iyo Israeri iri kuyedza, nekubudirira kumwe kuparadzanisa maPalestine, uye kuvaparadzanisa.
OB: Imwe nharo nevanokumbira ruregerero veIsrael ndeyekuti, dambudziko chairo harisi Israeri, dambudziko chairo nderekuti maPalestine haagone kuiunganidza. Asi vapambi vanopatsanura vagari vemo kuti vatonge. Saka kupatsanurana munzanga yePalestine chiporofita chinozvizadzisa. Kazhinji kushoropodzwa kuti hatigone kuzvibatanidza kunobva kuvanhu vasingatitsigire zvakadaro. Patakanga tabatana, vakanga vasipo. Zvino takaparadzana, uye nazvino havasati. Uyezve, vazhinji veavo vanodana kubatana kwePalestine ikozvino semamiriro ekusimudza kukomba kwemhosva paGaza ndiyo hurumende imwechete uye vezvematongerwo enyika vakaramba mhedzisiro yesarudzo dzePalestine democracy mu2006 uye vakatirova nekukomba sechirango.
Zvisinei, iyi ndiyo imwe yenguva dzakaomesesa yesangano rePalestine nekuti hutungamiriri hwedu huri pamutemo ndehwezvose zvinangwa zvekushandira kune rumwe rutivi. Bato rega rega rine maquislings, asi kuve nehutungamiriri hwepamutemo kune rimwe divi, tichibatana pachena nemudzvanyiriri, hatisati tambozviona.
Chaizvoizvo, BDS inobatsira kusangano rePalestine mupfungwa iyi zvakare. Kunze kwekuita kwayo kukuru, mhedzisiro inodiwa yekuedza kuita Israeri pariah nekuiparadzanisa kuti iite kuti ibvumidze kuremekedza mutemo wepasirese uye kodzero dzePalestine dzakakosha, BDS inobatanidza maPalestine pachikuva chekupokana kana vachinge vachida zvakanyanya mapoinzi ekubatana. Kubvumirana kuseri kweBDS kwakasimba zvekuti kunyangwe Dare rePalestine muRamallah harizorirwisa pachena. Vanosunga, vanosunga, uye vanoita zvakanyanya kuipa kune vePalestine pachinzvimbo cheIsrael, asi havana kushora BDS.
JP: Vane rutsigiro rwekurasikirwa nekuita chinhu chakadaro?
OB: Kwete zvakanyanya, asi hongu.
JP: Chinhu chimwe chinondishungurudza pamusoro pekufanana kweSouth Africa inzvimbo inoiswa paBDS munyaya yekuSouth Africa. Zvinoita sekuti rusaruraganda rwakapedzwa nevanhu vekuSouth Africa, uye kuti kubatana kwepasi rose, kusanganisira BDS, kwakaita basa diki kana tichienzanisa.
OB: Ndiwo mashanga akatyora musana wengamera. Pasina izvozvo waisagona kupedza rusaruraganda. Rusaruraganda rwakabviswa pamutemo mukati nezvainge zvichiitwa neANC, asi pasina chimiro chepasi rose, hutongi hungadai husina kuparara. Uye yeuka kuti rusaruraganda rwakanga rwakaipisisa kusvika kumagumo. Makore mashoma apfuura akanga akaipisisa kupfuura ose, ane utsinye zvikuru uye aidzvinyirira.
JP: Zvakadini nenharo yekuti BDS isati yakwana kusvika hwaro hwaitwa, kusvika pave nedzidzo yakakwana?
OB: Izvi zvinofuratira chokwadi chekuti zviri nyore kudzidzisa kana uine mushandirapamwe wakakodzera. Kana iwe usina kujeka kwezvinangwa kana maturusi kana kupera kwemutambo, mushandirapamwe wako wekudzidzisa hauzoshanda. NeBDS, une magumo akajeka - kucherechedzwa kwekodzero dzizere dzisingabviswe dzePalestine - uye une hurongwa hwakajeka, BDS isina mhirizhonga. Ndiko kusaka sangano rakura nenzira yarakaita. Mumamiriro ezvinhu ePalestine, kufamba kweBDS kwakakura nekukurumidza. Yakatanga kuDurban muna 2001, asi yakakura zvakanyanya muna 2005 nerunhare rweBDS kubva kumasangano anodarika zana nemakumi manomwe emasangano akazvimirira, mapato ezvematongerwo enyika nemibatanidzwa. Nhasi zvave kutanga kusvika kune veruzhinji, une UN, Mutungamiriri weGeneral Assembly, Special Rapporteur Richard Falk, zviito munyika dzakawanda. Izvi zvave kuita kufamba kwevanhu vakawanda zvino.
JP: Chimwe chishoro chinosimudzwa ndechekuti BDS inovhara nhaurirano uye inopedza simba reIsrael rakasara, izvo zvichange zvichidikanwa kana paine kufambira mberi kuchizoitwa.
OB: Hazvina musoro kuve nekunyepa nezve muIsrael "akasara." Nezviyero zvepasi rose zvetemu iyi, hapana chakasara muIsrael. Kune vanhu vakasara uye vadiki, vari kumucheto, asi vane misimboti mapoka, asi hapana kufamba kunogona kunzi kuruboshwe. Iwo mapoka muIsrael anozvizivisa ivo se "kuruboshwe" ndiwo maZionist, saka ane rusaruraganda, uye anopesana neanenge ese 3 kodzero dzinokosha dzevanhu vePalestine, sezvataurwa pamusoro apa. Pane kubvumirana kukuru pakati pemapato ezvematongerwo enyika echiJudha eIsrael achipokana nekupa maPalestine kodzero dzavo dzisingabviswe. Ndichakupa muenzaniso chaiwo. Paive nechikumbiro chakatenderera kune yega yega ye9000 Israel vadzidzi. Chikumbiro changa chisiri cheBDS, kana rusaruraganda. Kwaingova nezverusununguko rwezvidzidzo. Yakangokurudzira zviremera zveIsrael kuti zvibvumire kufamba kwakasununguka pamazana emigwagwa uye nzvimbo dzekutarisa muWest Bank kune vese vadzidzi vePalestine uye vadzidzi vanoenda kuzvikoro zvavo nemayunivhesiti. Hapana kudiwa kusimudza maroadblocks. Hapana chinodiwa kugumisa basa. Kurerutsirwa kwenzvimbo dzekutarisa, nekuda kwerusununguko rwedzidzo, rusununguko rwunonzi runokunda mamwe rusununguko rwese. Vanenge mazana mana chete kubva ku400 veIsrael vadzidzi vakasaina. Fungidzira kudai chikumbiro chacho chaida kugumisa basa racho!
JP: Uye zvakadini nekupokana kuti pane kushandira BDS pamakampasi, vadzidzi vanofanirwa kushanda kuti vagadzire hukama nemayunivhesiti ePalestine?
OB: Hatigone kugamuchira mavhiri uye kubata. Iyo BDS kufamba inotungamirwa. Hatingazviputse nokuda kwechiokomuhomwe. Iko hakuna symmetry mumusimboti - kushamwaridzana neyunivhesiti yeIsrael haina kuenzana nekubatana neyunivhesiti yePalestine - nekuti hapana symmetry muchokwadi. Hapana nzvimbo yepakati pakati pevadzvinyiriri nevanodzvinyirirwa. Kubata masangano ePalestine neIsrael zvakaenzana zvinoreva kubvuma hurongwa hweIsrael hwerusaruraganda nehukoloni uye kuchenesa kuwirirana kwemasangano eIsrael mukuchengetedza hutongi hweIsrael uye dzimwe nzira dzekudzvanyirira.
Ndichakupa muenzaniso. Rumborera rwakauya kuna Israeri. The Palestinian Campaign for the Academic and Cultural Boycott of Israel (PACBI) yakanyorera kwaari ichimukumbira kuti asaite muIsrael. Haana kukanzura, asi akazvipira kuuya kuRamallah. Isu takanyora, panguva yerusaruraganda, ungadai wakaenzanisa kutamba muSun City nekuenda kuSoweto? Akabvuma kuti aisazodaro. Asi panguva yatakachinjana akanga atoita muIsraeri. Pakupedzisira, akapikira kuโrangariraโ nzvimbo yedu kana akazokokwa kuzoridzazve muna Israeri.
Roger Waters anobva kuPink Floyd aienda kunoridza muTel Aviv, asi, mushure menhaurirano dzakanaka nevaimbi vePalestine nePACBI, uye sekubvumirana, akatamisa konzati iyi kuenda kuPeace Valley, musha uri muIsrael une chimiro chekuenzana pakati pePalestine nemaJuda. vagari venyika. Akataurirana nesu kwemwedzi yakatiudza chimwe chinhu nezvake: kuti munhu ane tsika. Takamurongera rwendo rweApartheid Wall uye tikamukurudzira kuti ataure zvakajeka, pamberi uye panguva yekonzati, achipesana nekugara uye Masvingo. Akabvuma. Akaenda kuBethlehem, ndokupfapfaidza pendi yokuti, โParura Rusvingo urwuโ pamadziro. Yakanga yakafukidzwa neAP, Reuters, uye midhiya inoregeredza konzati. Kwakanga kuri kukunda kukuru kwatiri, uye akaita zvipikirwa zvake zvose. Chiripo ndechekuti, hatigone kubvuma pfungwa yekuti pane symmetry. Zvakaitwa naRoger Waters zvakagamuchirwa nekuti zvaive zvisiri symmetry. Akaziva pachena uye akashora basa racho uye kuratidzwa kwaro.
JP: Vagadziri, sevadzidzi, vangati vanofanirwa kunge vari pamusoro peBDS uye pamusoro pezvematongerwo enyika? Zvinoratidzika kwandiri kuti kana vachida, ivo vanofanirwa kuve maartist kutanga, uye kuramba chinzvimbo chavo muhurongwa.
OB: Ndichitaura semuchoredzi, ini handioni chero chikonzero chekusiya tsika. Kana vachida kuve pamusoro pezvematongerwo enyika, vanofanirwa kupesana nekugara uye hudzvanyiriri hwevakoloni. Hazvina musoro - basa rinotyora kodzero dzese. Hapana kusununguka kutaura pasi pebasa. Heino muenzaniso. Ohad Naharin, mutungamiriri ane mukurumbira weIsrael weBatsheva dance troupe, akataura chimwe chinhu senge "Ndiri kuramba ndichiita basa rangu, nepo 20 km kubva kwandiri vanhu vari kutora chikamu mumhosva dzehondo ... enderera." Haana hanya nemhosva dzehondo dzinoitwa nehurumende yake, muzita rake, asi anoti ndiri muimbi, saka zviri pasi pangu. I ignore it. Haazvifuratiri, kunyange zvakadaro. Kana vatambi vari muboka rake vanotumirwa pabasa rekuchengetedza, vanoenda kunoshanda muuto rebasa. Batsheva haana kumboshora basa iri. Muchokwadi, hapana sangano retsika reIsrael rakambodaidzira kumisa basa.
JP: Pane zvimwe zvipikiso kune BDS zvaungada kupindura?
OB: Ndinogara ndichida kuita nharo nemunhu wese asi ndanga ndichiwana mashoma mashoma ekuramba. Zvakasvika pakudheerera chete. MaZion akarasa kugona kunyengetedza; Chavanoshandisa iko zvino kudheerera, kusvibisa danidziro uye kutya kwehungwaru kudzvanyirira kupokana uye kuvhara gakava rose rakakomba paIsrael. Izvi ndizvo zvombo zvavo zvavanosarudza. Iyo huru ndeye smear ye anti-Semitism. Asi kunyangwe izvo zviri kunyanya kushandiswa, uye zvenhema uye zvisiri pamutemo kushandiswa, zvekuti zvakare iri kurasikirwa nekuruma kwayo. Chokwadi ndechekuti Israeri uye sangano reZionist rakatadza kuburitsa chero chombo chinoshanda kurwisa BDS. Vanoziva izvi, uye vanovhunduka.
Justin Podur munyori weToronto-based.
ZNetwork inopihwa mari chete kuburikidza nerupo rwevaverengi vayo.
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