Ohambweni lwakamuva olubuyela ekhaya oluya e-India, ngikwazile ukuthola uSiddharth Varadarajan, Umhleli Ohlangene we The Hindu - iphephandaba kazwelonke e-India - ehhovisi lakhe elise-Indian Newspaper Society, e-Rafi Marg, eNew Delhi.
Usuku lungoJulayi 6, 2007 futhi ngaphandle kushisa kakhulu ntambama eDelhi…
Ingxenye encane yokulotshiwe ishintshwe kancane (ikakhulukazi imibuzo) ukuze kucace kakhudlwana lapho kufundwa kanye nokunemba kwezingcaphuno zomlando.
I-Karthik Ramanathan: Engqungqutheleni yase-Bandung ngo-1955 e-Indonesia, undunankulu wethu wokuqala, u-Jawaharlal Nehru, wabuza ezinye ze-SEATO (South East Asian Treaty Organization - isivumelwano sezokuphepha eNingizimu East Asia esakhuthazwa yi-US maphakathi nekhulu lama-20) amazwe ayekhona. engqungqutheleni umbuzo olandelayo: Kungani iBrithani ne-United States ziyingxenye “yendawo yokuzivikela” yaseNingizimu-mpumalanga Asia?
Lokho kwakuse-Bandung Summit ngo-1955. Namuhla, uNdunankulu wethu uMnu Manmohan Singh akanazo izinkinga zokusayina izivumelwano zokuphepha ne-United States! Ungakwazi yini ukulandelela cishe isizinda soshintsho olukhulu esimeni saseNdiya.
Siddharth Varadarajan: Ngicabanga ukuthi okokuqala, kufanele sicacise uhlobo lwesivumelwano i-SEATO eyayiyiyo noma uhlobo lwesivumelwano i-CENTO eyayiyiyo - lezi kwakuyizivumelwano zokuphepha. Lezi zihluke kakhulu ezivumelwaneni zokuvikela i-India ezisayine ne-US. Ngifuna nje ukukucacisa lokho. Lokhu akusho ukuthi lokho i-India eyisayinile akuyona into engavamile noma ephikisekayo, kodwa ihlukile kulezo zinhlobo zezivumelwano - ngoba ayiboni ngeso lengqondo ukuphepha okuhlangene ngaleyo ndlela. Okusayinwe yi-India ne-US nakho kuhluke kakhulu kulokho i-India eyayisayine neSoviet Union ngo-1971, hhayi ngendlela engcono. Kodwa nokho ngicabanga ukuthi kubalulekile ukuqonda uhlobo lwangempela lobudlelwano bezokuvikela obuqhubekayo phakathi kwe-India ne-US. Empeleni, ngo-June 28 2005, i-India ne-US basayina lokho okubizwa ngokuthi ‘Uhlaka Olusha Lokubambisana Kwezokuvikela’. Lokhu kukhombisa ukuthuthukiswa okubalulekile kobudlelwano bezokuvikela obulokhu buthuthuka kusukela ekuqaleni kwawo-1990. Empeleni, ngenkathi lesi sivumelwano sisayinwa ngo-2005, kwakunezivivinyo eziningi ezihlanganyelwe, ukuqeqeshwa okuningi, ukuhwebelana kwezokuvikela… Futhi i-United States yayikushisekela kakhulu ukuphusha nokuhlela lokho okubizwa ngokuthi 'ukusebenzelana' - ngamanye amazwi ukudala. isimo lapho i-Indian Armed Forces kanye ne-US Armed Forces zingasebenza ndawonye. Senze ukuzivocavoca okuningi kodwa ngandlela thize le ngxenye yokusebenzisana ibingekho….
I-Karthik Ramanathan: Ngokusobala ngeke basebenzise imishini yaseNdiya, bazofuna ukuthi sisebenzise imishini yase-US.
Siddharth Varadarajan: Kulungile. Manje isici esibalulekile sokusebenzisana kufanele sisebenzise izinto ezifanayo. Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi ngo-2004/2005, i-US yathatha isinqumo - ngokuhambisana nezinguquko eziningi kunqubomgomo yayo, isibonelo umbuzo we-nuclear - ukuthi sizozama ukutshala i-India njengemakethe yezinsimbi zezempi, ngaphesheya kwebhodi. : kungakhathaliseki ukuthi i-Multi-Role Combat Aircraft, noma ngabe imikhumbi yayo ethuthukisiwe, i-AWACS, noma ezinye izinhlobo zezindiza ezigadayo, i-Hercules heavy lift… i-US cishe yanquma ukuthi uma sifuna ukusebenzisana namasosha ase-India, sebenzisa izinsiza zamaNdiya, futhi ekugcineni sisebenzise i-Indian Armed Forces ukuze sinikeze imisebenzi yethu 'esezingeni eliphansi' endaweni ebanzi yase-Asia ngakho-ke ngokusobala i-India kufanele ijwayele amathuluzi ethu. Ngakho-ke, umgomo wesivumelwano sika-2005 usemishinini, ekuthuthukiseni lokhu kusebenzisana, kodwa futhi ucabanga noma udale isisekelo sokuthi i-India ibambe iqhaza kulokho okubizwa ngokuthi 'imisebenzi yamazwe amaningi' ne-United States, "uma womabili amazwe ezwa kuwusizo kubo bobabili”. Manje lokhu kwakhiwa beku… kube wukusuka kancane ezikhundleni zangaphambili zamaNdiya ngoba i-India ayikaze ivume ukuba nengxenye emisebenzini yamazwe amaningi ngaphandle uma igunyazwe futhi iholwa yiNhlangano Yezizwe Ezihlangene. Ngakho-ke lokhu kubonakala kabanzi njengento entsha kunqubomgomo yaseNdiya, okucacayo lokho i-United States ebihlose ukukuletha esikhathini esizinzile sokusebenzisana kwezokuvikela. Ngamanye amazwi, ukwakha umhlabathi, ukubeka isisekelo sokuthi amasosha aseNdiya abambe iqhaza emisebenzini yangaphandle. Angicabangi ukuthi i-US ilindele ngokweqiniso ukuthi sizoke sibe yingxenye yomfelandawonye ohlaselayo. Lokho ngeke kwenzeke nje. Iqiniso lezepolitiki laseNdiya liwukuthi akekho uhulumeni ongenza lokho. Kodwa ngemisebenzi engaphansi kwalokho - ngaphansi kwamazwe ahlaselayo - bangathanda ukusebenzisa izinsiza zamaNdiya, abasebenzi baseNdiya, njll. Futhi yilokho ngempela esimayelana nesivumelwano sokuvikela sika-2005.
I-Karthik Ramanathan: Indaba ukuthi nakuba singase singalokothi sibe ingxenye yebutho lase-US elihlaselayo, ukudlala indima yokusekela nokho kukhulula amabutho ase-US ukuthi enze umsebenzi ongcolile.
Siddharth Varadarajan: Ngandlela thize sesivele sikubone lokhu. Isibonelo, ukuvakasha kwakamuva kwe-USS Nimitz eya eNdiya…
I-Karthik Ramanathan: Yebo, bengizokubuza ngalokho...
Siddharth Varadarajan: I-USS Nimitz ifike ngokuvakasha kwezinsuku ezinhlanu eNdiya. Abantu abaningi babhikisha, AmaNdiya amaningi awaneme ngakho. Isizathu yingoba iNimitz iyingxenye yezingxoxo zokusabisa zaseMelika ePersian Gulf ngokumelene ne-Iran. Ngakho-ke unaso lesi sikhali, lo mkhumbi wempi okhona njengengxenye yokwanda okukhulu kokuthunyelwa kweMelika ePersian Gulf - ngokuyisisekelo i-saber rattling - izama ukusongela i-Iran, ibamba iqhaza kuzo zonke izinhlobo zokuhlasela. Bese beza eNdiya isizathu esingaziwa...
I-Karthik Ramanathan: [ehleka…]
Siddharth Varadarajan: Futhi lapho ebuzwa, akekho ohlangothini lwaseNdiya owayezimisele ukusho ukuthi lo mkhumbi wawuzohamba kuphi ngemva kwe-Chennai.
I-Karthik Ramanathan: Babengazimisele futhi ukucacisa ukuthi umkhumbi unezikhali zenuzi yini.
Siddharth Varadarajan: Kulungile, kodwa kwakungelona iphuzu eliyinhloko lelo. Bheka, kwavela umbono wokuthi lo mkhumbi wawusuqedile uhambo lwawo lomsebenzi ePersian Gulf futhi manje usendleleni eya nomaphi. Kodwa umkhumbi waphindela emuva egunjini lasePheresiya. Ngakho-ke, iphuzu ngokusobala ukuthi lolu cingo lwase-Indian port - ucingo abathi luwukuvakasha nje kokuhle - futhi luvumela ukuthunyelwa kwezinhlaka ezihlaselayo zaseMelika zesikhathi eside. Ngakho-ke ungabona ukuthi ukufinyelela e-India kuvumela kanjani ukuthunyelwa kalula kwamabutho ahlaselayo aseMelika, noma i-India ingahle ingabi mbambi qhaza oqondile…
I-Karthik Ramanathan: Futhi njengoba ubukhomba [esihlokweni esithi The Hindu ngoJulayi 5, 2007] kuyindlela yokubulala umphakathi wamaNdiya kulokho abazokwenza esikhathini esizayo.
Siddharth Varadarajan: Impela.. ukuhlakulela… ngisho ukuthi ..unamatilosi afanayo - ngo-2003, i-Nimitz yayiyingxenye yokuhlasela kwe-Iraq - wona kanye amatilosi anesandla ekubhujisweni kwe-Iraq azama [ukuhlukumeza] abantu eNdiya ukuhlanza amadolobhana athile njengengxenye yokuzivocavoca kwe-PR ngemuva kokuthi i-USS Nimitz imise ethekwini lase-Chennai…[ehleka.]
I-Karthik Ramanathan: Yebo.. yebo.. Bengifuna ukukubuza ngalokho. Empeleni ngisanda kufika eDelhi ngivela e-Chennai lapho ngibuya khona ngivela e-US ukuzobona umndeni wami. Ngiyisisebenzi sesikhashana e-US, futhi okwangithusa kakhulu nokunengeka lapho ngifika e-Chennai, ngathola ukuthi abantu baseMelika (njengengxenye yeqembu le-USS Nimitz) babekhona ukuze bangamukele. Kodwa iphuzu yilesi senzo somusa womphakathi esafakwa ithimba le-USS Nimitz, nale blonde eza ogwini izoqabula ingane yaseNdiya ekhaya lezintandane nokunye, yayinengeka. Bengifuna umbono wakho mayelana nesimo esicatshangelwayo kodwa esifana naso: Ake sicabangele ukuxoxa ngesifunda esithile esiqinile, kusho iNorth Korea, kwakufanele sithumele amabutho ayo ukusho isisekelo esithile ePakistan bese sifaka imaski yomusa yohlobo lwethimba le-USS Nimitz. ubonakala ehlakaniphile - ngiyangabaza ukuthi umshini wokushicilela wasentshonalanga ungathenga kuwo?
Siddharth Varadarajan: Nakanjani. Umbhedo ophelele lo. Ngiqonde ukuthi, abantu abeza ogwini… bavakashela amadolobhana.. lokho okubizwa ngokuthi ukuhlanza ulwandle… wukucwilisa abantu eNdiya ngempela.. Umqondo wami uwukuthi ekugcineni kosuku, naphezu kwalokhu kuvivinya umzimba okukhulu kwe-PR, abantu baseNdiya uhlale ungakhululekile ngomqondo wokuthi i-India idlala indima yokusabisa noma ukuhlaselwa kwamazwe akulesi sifunda. Leli phuzu lihlala likhona.
I-Karthik Ramanathan: Ubunesihloko esithi ‘AmaHindu’ lapho ukhuluma khona ngombono ‘wombuso wezwe’ owethulwa eNdiya. Imibhalo eminingi yenqubomgomo yase-US, ikakhulukazi emibhalweni yezempi ephezulu icacisa ukuthi inhloso yabo enkulu ukuvimbela abantu ekutholeni ngisho “izikhali zabantu abampofu”, ukuthi bafuna “ukubusa okugcwele” – okuyigama langempela elisetshenziswa emibhalweni ye-USAF- ukuvimbela ukuvela kwanoma iyiphi imbangi okungenzeka. Uma kubhekwa lokhu, umuntu wenzani ngemizamo kahulumeni wase-India yokuthenga e-US isifungo sokwenza i-India umbuso womhlaba? Ngiqonde ukuthi, umuntu angaqonda uma uhulumeni engenazo izithakazelo zabantu, kodwa lo hulumeni [kaManmohan Singh] awubonakali nokuthi unezintshisekelo eziphakeme engqondweni. Ungakwazi yini ukuba namagama ambalwa kulokhu?
Siddharth Varadarajan: Kucace bha kusukela ekuhlolweni kwezikhali zenuzi zango-1998 noma mhlawumbe nangaphambi kwalokho, kusukela kwaqala izinguquko zika-1991, izikhulu zaseNdiya, isigaba samabhizinisi aseNdiya, zinezifiso zomhlaba wonke. Futhi uzibona njengomdlali esikalini somhlaba. Noma kunezigaba zenhlokodolobha yase-India ezizizwa zikhululeke kakhudlwana ukubamba iqhaza ekuthuthukisweni komhlaba wonke njengozakwethu omncane wase-United States, unezingxenye ezibalulekile zenhloko-dolobha yase-India ezizibona njengabadlali bodwa futhi ezingafuni ukuba uzakwethu omncane noma ubani. Manje, lesi sipho sase-US 'sombuso wezwe' siyathakazelisa. Kubalulekile ukuqaphela ukuthi lokhu kuwumzamo we-United States wokungena esitezi esiphansi, njengokungathi. Ngicabanga ukuthi i-United States inhle kakhulu ekuboneni izitayela zesikhathi eside. Futhi bayazi futhi bayabona ukuthi eminyakeni eyi-10-15, umkhondo we-India ngokwemigomo yezomnotho-yebhizinisi uzoba mkhulu kakhulu kunalokho oyikho namuhla futhi ngicabanga ukuthi i-US yathatha isinqumo ngemuva kwe-Iraq. ukuhlasela kanye nenhlekelele eyabangela, ukuthi uma sifuna .. uma besizoqinisa indima yethu ye-hegemonic e-Asia futhi sanelise umgomo wethu wesikhathi eside wokuvimbela izimbangi ukuthi zikhuphuke lapha nalaphaya, umfelandawonye neNdiya uwusizo ngempela ukusunduza okwe. Iwusizo ezicini ezimbili: eyokuqala, ukuthi ungasebenzisa umbimbi ne-India ukuze uhlole noma yiziphi izifiso iChina engase ibe nazo zokubusa umhlaba wonke kanti ezimbili, ngokungena phansi ungaqinisekisa nokuthi i-India ayihlanganisi namanye amazwe afana neChina. noma i-Russia futhi, ngaleyo nqubo ye-bandwagoning, ukudala isimo lapho i-American hegemony ingase iphikiswe noma iphikiswe ngokuqinisekile ezingxenyeni eziningi zomhlaba. Ngakho-ke, ngicabanga ukuthi lesi yisamba kanye nengqikithi yalo mnikelo. Lokhu akusona isithembiso esibucayi ngempela. Kuyisimemezelo senhloso ngempela.
Kunjalo, izigaba ze-elite zithotshwa yilokhu: oh wow! abantu baseMelika bazosisiza futhi lokhu kuhle ngempela… kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi ngokuvamile, i-Indian elite inengqondo mayelana nokuthi siyini isipho. Uhulumeni waseNdiya naye uyazi ukuthi kumayelana nani lokhu. Bacabanga ukuthi bangadlala lo mdlalo onzima kakhulu, wokwamukela izintshisekelo zaseMelika
Kuze kube sezingeni elithile, ukuyisebenzisela ukuba nkulu futhi ibe namandla kakhulu esiteji somhlaba bese ngesinye isikhathi ngitshele abantu baseMelika: kuze kube manje futhi ngeke kuqhubeke. Kodwa lona umdlalo onzima. Izinto azisebenzi ngaleyo ndlela. Futhi ukulinganisa izinga ohambisana nalo ne-ajenda ethile kuba nzima nakakhulu. Lapho uhlanganyela kakhulu namasosha aseMelika, yilapho ucwiliswa kakhulu yinqubomgomo yezangaphandle yaseMelika esifundeni, kuba nzima kakhulu kuwe ukuthi uzikhiphe. Imayela ngalinye elingeziwe olihambayo nenqubomgomo yezangaphandle yase-US esifundeni ikhawulela izinketho ezitholakala kunoma yiluphi ushintsho lwenqubomgomo oluzayo. Ngicabanga ukuthi lokhu kuyinto uhulumeni waseNdiya angakwazi ukuyiqonda. Ngakho-ke bayazi ukuthi okunikezwayo kwaseMelika kuwumnikelo ogqugquzelwe, abantu baseMelika bazifunele bona, kodwa bazizwa bephilile, ngingasebenzisa lesi sipho ukuze ngiqhubekele phambili - ngaphandle kokuqaphela ukuthi izingibe zaleli su zinkulu ngempela.
I-Karthik Ramanathan: Bengifuna ukukubuza lo mbuzo ngemva kwesikhashana. Kodwa njengoba ushilo ukuthi uhulumeni waseNdiya akakwazi ukuqonda umdlalo wamasu odlalwayo: Ingabe singafunda izifundo eLatin America, hhayi nje njengohulumeni kodwa njengabantu? Abantu baseLatin America badlule kulokho esibhekene nakho emashumini ambalwa eminyaka adlule - mayelana nokuqeqeshwa kwezikhulu zezempi zase-US, ngokuya nge-US esekela imibuso yezempi. Ngabe sibheka isimo lapho sithi kungenzeka umbuso wamaKhomanisi e-India uketulwe izikhulu zezempi zase-India eziqeqeshiwe zase-US eminyakeni embalwa ezansi komugqa. Ingabe abantu bangafunda eLatin America?
Siddharth Varadarajan: Nokho, ngicabanga ukuthi kuningi i-India engakufunda eLatin America. Kodwa lezi zimo [okukhulunywe ngazo] azinakwenzeka ngempela…amasosha athatha izintambo. Ngisho ukuthi lokho akukho esihlahleni, ngoba umbuso wamaKhomanisi awukho esihlahleni! Lokho i-India engakufunda eLatin America yizinto ezimbili noma ezintathu, ikakhulukazi uma ubheka eminyakeni emihlanu noma engu-5 edlule. Okokuqala, isidingo senqubomgomo yezomnotho ebandakanya wonke umuntu. Ngisho noma ukholelwa emakethe, ngisho noma ukholelwa ebhizinisini elizimele, kuwukuzikhohlisa ukucabanga ukuthi ungaba nemodeli yokukhula ngokusekelwe ekukhishweni komphakathi. Ukufakwa yinto eyenza ukwazi ukwandisa usayizi wemakethe yakho, kuyinto enhle ku-capitalism. Yebo ukuguquguquka konxiwankulu, ikakhulukazi uhlobo lwentuthuko yonxiwankulu esinalo eNdiya, akubandakanyi izigidi nezigidi zabantu. Kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi kufanele kwenziwe umzamo othile wokufaka bonke labo abakhishwe ngaphandle futhi ungabona eminyakeni engu-6 edlule, uhulumeni weCongress evuma ukuba ku-Rural Employment Guarantee Scheme (NREGA) ikakhulukazi ngenxa yengcindezi evela kwesobunxele, okuwumzamo owodwa wemodeli ehlanganisiwe.
Okwesibili i-India okufanele ifunde eLatin America ukubaluleka kokuhlelwa kwesifunda - ukubaluleka kokubambisana kwesifunda, ukusebenzisana kwesifunda. I-Asia iyingxenye yomhlaba engenazo izikhungo zesifunda eziqinile. Unezikhungo zesifunda ezifana ne-SAARC, une-ASEAN. Kodwa awunalutho oluhlanganisa i-Asia iyonke ukusuka empumalanga kuya entshonalanga. Kungaba ngokwemibandela yezomnotho noma ngokwemibandela yamasu noma ngokwemibandela yezepolitiki. Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi i-India idinga ngempela ukunaka…mayelana nokusebenzisana namanye amazwe ase-Asia neChina, neJapan, iRussia ukuphusha ukwakhiwa kwalezi zikhungo. Ngoba uma zingekho lezi zikhungo ezingaba nomkhakha wezomnotho namasu, amandla angaphandle - okuyi-US - anekhono kakhulu lokususa ukungavikeleki amazwe akhona anakho komunye nomunye. Ngakho-ke sihlala sibheke ngaphandle ukuze sidlale umdlalo wokulinganisa, kunokuba siguqule ukwakheka kwezokuphepha kwethu lapho i-China, Japan, Korea ingaxazulula ukungezwani kwezokuphepha okungenzeka babe nakho. Ngakho-ke, ngicabanga ukuthi yilokho ngempela okudingeka kufundwe e-Latin America: imodeli yezomnotho ebandakanyayo kanye nokubaluleka kokuhlelwa kwesifunda.
Kunjalo, isifundo sesithathu esisitholayo siyisifundo esibi, okuyizindleko ezinzima ozikhokhayo ngokusondela kakhulu e-United States. Kodwa umuzwa wami ukuthi lokho kuyinqaba yokusondelana ngokomzimba kweLatin America ne-United States - ubuneminyaka eyikhulu yemfundiso kaMonroe. Angicabangi ukuthi i-India ingena kulolo hlobo lobudlelwano. Kodwa ungena esimweni lapho izinketho ebezitholakala e-India uma kungenjalo zingancipha ngenxa yalokhu kusondela e-US.
I-Karthik Ramanathan: Ngiqonde ukuthuthukisa i-architecture yezokuphepha yase-Asia nakho kunenzuzo yomphakathi - ngoba futhi sixazulula izinkinga zethu zezepolitiki nezempi…
Siddharth Varadarajan: Nakanjani. Ngoba uma i-India ne-China zingakhathazeka kancane ngomunye nomunye njengokusongela kwezempi… uma i-India ne-Pakistan zingakhathazeka kancane ngomunye nomunye njengokusongela kwezempi. Lokhu ngokusobala kunomphumela wezenhlalo nezomnotho. Ushaye khona.
I-Karthik Ramanathan: Kulungile. Izinyathelo ezithathwa yi-Washington manje [vis-Ã -vis India] azisona isiqinisekiso esingenangqondo e-Washington sokuthi uhulumeni wesikhathi esizayo ngeke akwazi ukukhetha indlela ezimele. Njengoba kwenzekile eVenezuela, njengoba kwenzeka eBolivia, izinyathelo ezithathwa yiWashington azizukufeza izinhloso zazo.
Siddharth Varadarajan: Nakanjani. Ngicabanga ukuthi i-US ayiphumeleli ukuguqula isimo eLatin America, naphezu kokuqubuka kombuso, naphezu kokwenza zonke izinhlobo zezinto. Ngicabanga ukuthi naseNdiya, ngihlala nginethemba ngekusasa. Ngicabanga ukuthi sisempambanweni maqondana nenqubomgomo yezangaphandle yamaNdiya kanye nenqubomgomo yezomnotho. Ngokuya ngengcindezi evela ngezansi, kuye ngokuhlanganisa okudumile, kuye ngemizwa edumile, kungenzeka kukhawulwe izinga elilimazayo lokuzibandakanya lo hulumeni awuqalile ne-US. Futhi ngisho ukuyihlehlisa. Futhi awuhlehli ngokuthi...Angicabangi ukuthi kukhona umuntu kuleli, okungenani kunabo bonke, ofuna ubudlelwano obubi ne-US. Ngicabanga ukuthi umuntu ufuna ubudlelwano bokulingana obungazuzisa bobabili. Kodwa ubudlelwano obungokoqobo obusekelwe e-India obubona ukuthi okuningi okwenziwa yi-US kule ngxenye yomhlaba empeleni kunomthelela omubi ekuvikelekeni kwami, kunomthelela omubi esifundeni. Ngamanye amazwi, kufanele ngibe sengibheka inqubomgomo ezovimbela i-US ekwenzeni ezinye zezinto ezenzayo kulesi sifunda. Futhi indlela engikwenza ngayo lokho iwukuba ngisebenze namanye amazwe ase-Asia ukuze siphushele izixazululo zentando yeningi kwezinye zezinkinga ezidalwe yi-US noma ethi inesithakazelo sokuzixazulula kodwa empeleni engenzi lutho ukuzixazulula. NjengePalestine ngokwesibonelo. .
I-Karthik Ramanathan: Kulungile. Esuka emandleni amakhulu aye ekushisekeleni izwe, uMnu. Manmohan Singh ufuna ukuthi amaNdiya ashisekela izwe asekele isivumelwano senuzi ne-US - uyazi ukuvula indawo yamandla enyukliya eNdiya. Uyazi ukuthi amandla enuzi yinto engase ivuleke esikhathini eside, kodwa esikhathini esimaphakathi kuzofanele sigxile ekugcinweni kukaphethiloli, njll. Kodwa kunezici ezimbili esivumelwaneni senuzi: eyodwa esivunyelwe ukuyikhuluma. mayelana nokuhlobana nesici esincanyana sokuphehlwa kwamandla enuzi e-India kanye nokuvimbela amasu. Kodwa kukhona okunye okukhathazayo okungakhulunywa ngakho: okungukuthi, bavumela ukuguqulwa kwenqubomgomo yamaNdiya ukuze kusekelwe izenzo zobuphekula zase-US phesheya - kungase kungabi ngokuqondile, kodwa ngokudlala indima yokusekela. Kimina kuzwakala sengathi amaNgisi akwenza ngemihlathi yethu ngesikhathi sokubusa kwamakholoni abantu bakithi. Ungakwazi yini ukuphawula ngalokho.
Siddharth Varadarajan: Hhayi-ke, kucace kimina ukuthi i-US ingathanda - ukubuyela kulobu budlelwano bezokuvikela okuyiyona ndlela esaqala ngayo - ingathanda ukusebenzisa amasosha aseNdiya ukuze iveze amandla ayo kulesi sifunda. Uma ulandele izinkulumo-mpikiswano ngaphakathi kwe-United States, uhlelo lweRumsfeld, olusekhona naphezu kokuhamba kukaRumsfeld, bekuwukudonsa phansi konke ukuthunyelwa kwamasosha aseMelika - ngamanye amazwi kugcizelela ukuthunyelwa kwamasosha ngezinga elikhulu ezisekelweni eziya phambili - kodwa abe nenombolo. amaphedi omnduze amancane lapho angagxuma khona ukusuka kwenye indawo kuya kwenye.
Futhi ukuze lelo qhinga lisebenze, badinga izinto ezimbili. Okokuqala, ukufinyelela ezikhungweni ezitholakala enkabeni yedolobha. Futhi ukwazi ukudweba amasosha anobungane nomaphi lapho le misebenzi yokuphoqelela, le misebenzi ye-hegemonic, ayikwazi ukuphathwa kahle ngamanani amancane amasosha aseMelika. Ngizokutshela ngokungananazi ukuthi ngiqonde ukuthini: bona i-India ingena ngoba a) I-bang maphakathi ne-Asia. Ihlinzeka ngezinsiza ezinhle kakhulu zokubeka / isisekelo. Awusoze wabona izisekelo zaseMelika ezihlala njalo lapha. Kodwa bangathanda Isivumelwano Sokufinyelela [Ne-Cross-Servicing] esingabavumela ukuba beze futhi bahambe kaningi futhi ngokushesha ngangokunokwenzeka. Vele, akunakwenzeka ukuthi i-India ivumele izisekelo zaseMelika. Ngeke kwenzeke...
I-Karthik Ramanathan: Awucabangi kanjalo..?
Siddharth Varadarajan: Cha, akunakwenzeka. Ngoba nje umbono womphakathi wamaNdiya ngeke ubekezele. Noma ngabe uhulumeni unesifiso sokuvumela izisekelo zaseMelika, ngeke kwenzeke. Lolu wudaba lapho uhulumeni angaketulwa khona, uzolahlekelwa ukwesekwa ngumphakathi. Kufana nokuthi, ukube uVajpayee wayevumile ukuthumela amasosha aseNdiya e-Iraq [ngo-2003], uhulumeni wakhe ngabe usebunzimeni obukhulu. Leso yisibonelo sakudala lapho izikhulu zamaNdiya - umphakathi waseNdiya obizwa ngokuthi umphakathi wamasu, izikhulu zezombangazwe - zazincike kakhulu ekuthumeleni amasosha amaNdiya ukuthi ayofela e-Iraq ngempi kaBush. Kepha ekupheleni kosuku, uVajpayee kwadingeka ahlehle.
Sizokubona lokhu kaninginingi. Ngicabanga ukuthi abaseMelika bazohlale bezama ukuphusha imvilophu. Futhi lapho ngandlela thize bezophumelela khona, kukulokhu okubizwa ngokuthi yimisebenzi yamazwe ngamazwe yokusimamisa/ukugcina ukuthula okungeyona nje imisebenzi eholwa yi-UN. Ngithanda ukwenza isibonelo okungekude kangako. Uma ucabanga eminyakeni embalwa phansi komgwaqo okwenzeka eSomalia - lapho abantu baseMelika baphazamisa lokho okubizwa ngokuthi uhulumeni wezinkantolo zamaSulumane. Baphusha umlingani wabo omusha esifundeni, i-Ethiopia ukuba ihlasele. Badale isimo abazama ukusilawula. Kusasa isimo singase siqhume ebusweni babo. ISomalia, elokhu ithubeleza onqenqemeni, ingase iphinde ibuyele esiphithiphithini. AbaseMelika bangase baqale ukuhlasela kwezindiza ezindaweni ezibizwa nge-Al-Qaeda lapho. Futhi njengoba sebelwe kanzima, bangase bazizwe ngaleso sikhathi, kulungile, manje yisikhathi sokusiza ‘ngosizo lobuntu’ kanye ‘nokwakhiwa kwezikhungo zaseSomalia’. Ngaleso sikhathi, bangase bacele i-India ukuthi isisize lapha: asiceli amasosha akho ukuthi abulale noma afe. Kodwa kungani ningahambi nisisize ekwakheni izikole… njll., njll. Ngicabanga ukuthi ngaleso sikhathi, noma i-India ibizokwazi ukuthi lolu wuhlobo lwesiphakamiso somkhankaso, kodwa izindleko zokuthi 'cha' uma iminyaka emihlanu yobudlelwano obusondelene kakhulu bekungaba phezulu…
I-Karthik Ramanathan: Ngaleso sikhathi imishini eminingi, izingxenye eziningi eziyisipele bezizodingeka…
Siddharth Varadarajan: Imishini eminingi nezingxenye ezisele ozidingayo…. [ukuthi ‘cha’] kuba nzima kakhulu. Ngakho-ke, ngicabanga ukuthi ukukhathazeka kwakho kokuthi i-US ikwazi ukudonsa impahla yaseNdiya noma ibutho laseNdiya livumelekile. Angicabangi ukuthi kuzoholela esimweni lapho sizobona khona amaNdiya ezolwa impi yaseMelika. Njengoba ngishilo, umbono womphakathi waseNdiya uzwela kakhulu kulezi zinhlobo zezinto. Kodwa uyazi, 'izinga eliphansi' lokukhishwa kwemisebenzi yezempi kungenzeka.
I-Karthik Ramanathan: Ngangibhale mayelana… Ngangiphatheke kabi kakhulu ngombono wokuthi siyobe seseka izimfuno zombuso ngemva kweminyaka engamashumi ayisithupha sathola inkululeko. Uyazi, uMnu. Manmohan Singh, enkulumweni yakhe e-NAM (e-Havana Cuba) wafuna ukuthi i-NAM izibandakanye ekulweni namaphekula. Nali udaba lukaNdunankulu oya engqungqutheleni yeNAM eyofuna ukuthi silwe nobushokobezi. Kodwa okujabulisayo ukuthi akazange ayisho i-ejenti yobushokobezi ayefuna i-NAM ilwe nayo. Umhlangano weNAM ubuseCuba. Wayengakhomba kalula izenzo eziningi zobuphekula - ubuphekula base-US ngokumelene neCuba. Kodwa wakhetha ukushiya ama-agent engashiwongo. Ngokusobala, uMnu. Manmohan unama-ejenti hhayi njenge-Washington, kodwa ukhuluma ngobuphekula obenziwa yizitha zaseWashington. Uyazi uhlobo lwayo lokufana nokumemezela ukungabaza kokungavumelani ne-India esemthethweni. Futhi ngasikhathi sinye, ubekhombisa futhi eWashington ukuthi uzimisele ukukhotha amabhuzu abo noma ngabe kusho ukudayisa ingqungquthela ye-NAM ezithakazelweni zombuso waseMelika. Ngakho-ke, lobu [budlelwano bamasu] buhlangana kanjani nesikhundla saseNdiya sokungaqondani.
Siddharth Varadarajan: Ngicabanga ukuthi kunezinto ezimbili okufanele zibhekwe ngokwehlukana. I-India kuye kwadingeka ibhekane nezalo izindaba zobuphekula. Ngemuva kuka-9-11, kuzwakale kwaneliseke kakhulu ukuthi i-US izolwa impi yethu - okungukuthi i-US izobona ukuthi i-Pakistan iyi-vortex yayo yonke le misebenzi nokuthi bazokhipha iPakistan. Manje, okwenzekile kuphambene. IPakistan, enobudlelwano obusondelene kakhulu nebutho laseMelika - ibutho lezempi lasePakistan linobudlelwano obusondelene kakhulu nebutho laseMelika - ngokushesha kakhulu lobo budlelwano baqala futhi. IPakistan iyisizinda samasosha aseMelika e-Afghanistan. Ngaphezu kwalokho, ngingaphikisa ukuthi uma ubheka izithakazelo zaseMelika e-Asia Ephakathi, iPakistan ibaluleke kakhulu. Futhi ayikho indlela yokuthi amaMelika azokwehlisa amasosha asePakistan. Iphupho lokusungulwa kwamaNdiya ukuthi 'umfelandawonye wami neMelika uzongisiza ngibhekane nePakistan', bekuyinganekwane yabo. Indlela engcono yokubhekana nePakistan yilokho uhulumeni asezame ukukwenza manje, okuyizingxoxo ezibucayi. Manje, inkinga isekhona ukuthi unombuso wezempi ePakistan okhombise ukuzimisela ukuxoxisana kodwa ukuzinza kwawo kuyahlaselwa ngaphakathi ezweni. Kunzima ngempela ukubona ukuthi kuzokwenzekani. Kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi uhlangothi lwaseNdiya kufanele luqaphele ukuthi asikho isisombululo sezempi enkingeni yaseKashmir noma ngisho nenkinga yobuphekula. Yebo, uma umuntu ezama ukubulala izakhamuzi ezingenacala - kufanele uphenye, ubajezise, ubaphikise, wenze okufanele... hlala epharadesi leziwula. Ezingeni lomhlaba wonke, ngicabanga ukuthi ukusungulwa kwamaNdiya nakho kuyaqaphela ukuthi indlela yaseMelika yokulwa nobuphekula ngezindlela eziningi iphikisana nokukhiqiza. Abakwenzile e-Iraq ngokwesibonelo, kwenyuse isibalo sabaqhubi bebhomu ngokuzibulala ngokuphindwe kaningi. Angicabangi ukuthi laba baqhubi bebhomu abaningi abazibulalayo babekhona emhlabeni wama-Arab...
I-Karthik Ramanathan: Uma ngikhumbula, abekho amabhomu azibulale e-Iraq kusukela ngekhulu le-13th [kwaze kwaba ukuhlasela kwe-US].
Siddharth Varadarajan: Impela. Lokhu, uyazi, into isikhungo saseNdiya esiqaphelayo. Ngicabanga ukuthi isikhungo saseNdiya siyaqaphela ukuthi uma i-US ibingenza ubuwula obufanayo e-Iran, lokhu bekungaba nemiphumela emibi kakhulu.
Olunye udaba oluphakamisayo ngeye-NAM. UCondoleeza Rice, esitatimendeni emhlanganweni we-US-India Business Council eWashington, uhlasele i-Non-Aligned Movement futhi wathi i-India kufanele ngandlela thile… Uthe Ukungavumelani kungenzeka kube nokuhlobene emhlabeni ohlukaniswe waba amabhulokhi. Namuhla awasekho amabhlogo, onakho kungamagugu. Futhi i-India kufanele ihlangane ne-United States ngesisekelo sokukhuthazwa kwentando yeningi nokunye nokunye. Manje, lokhu kucasule abantu abaningi eNdiya. Ngenxa yezizathu ezimbili.
Eyodwa, niyazi, yiziphi izindinganiso esikhuluma ngazo? Ngicabanga ukuthi abantu baseNdiya bakholelwa kuntando yeningi… abantu baseMelika bakholelwa kuntando yeningi kodwa abaphathi bakaBush akubonakali bakwenza lokho. Ngakho ungaba nemibuso, ngikhulume nge-Ethiopia ekuqaleni. I-Ethiopia njengamanje ibophela osopolitiki abaphikisayo. Ingabe lokho kuyabakhathaza abaphathi bakaBush. Cha. akunjalo. Kungani? Ngoba ufuna i-Ethiopia ihambe iyohlasela iSomalia. Ngakho-ke, lokhu kunamathisela 'kumagugu entando yeningi' kuwusizo kakhulu... Futhi ukuphakamisa ukuthi iMelika inanoma yikuphi okunamathiselwe kulawa magugu kuwumbhedo omsulwa.
Futhi okwesibili, uyazi, kungani iNdiya kufanele ilahle abangani bayo, imifelandawonye yayo, amaqembu ayo? Uma lokhu kuyintengo yesivumelwano ne-US… Ngicabanga ukuthi i-India ifuna ubungane ne-US, kodwa ayibheki ubudlelwano obunjalo obudlulele. Ngicabanga ukuthi sifuna ubungane ne-US, kodwa futhi neChina, neRussia, kanye ne-Non-Aligned Movement. Ngicabanga ukuthi inselelo yokusebenzelana kwama-India ukuphatha bonke lobu budlelwano futhi empeleni ukuphatha lokhu okulindelekile okungenangqondo ngokuphelele i-United States enayo maqondana nendlela yayo yaseNdiya.
I-Karthik Ramanathan: Siyabonga Siddharth!
Siddharth Varadarajan: Wamukelekile.
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