Leftists are notorious for turning on one another. Sometimes an organization splits. Sometimes two organizations go at it. Most often one individual attacks another individual. Escalation ensues. Some are appalled. Others cheer. Hooray for my side.
The immediately obvious price of personalized in-fighting is to destroy relations between potential allies. Such fighting often even causes committed people to exit politics rather than endure pointless, petty, vindictive slings and arrows.
Further, such battling causes even activists who are not immediately involved to defensively restrict their words and actions to avoid being criticized, in turn crippling diversity and creativity and breeding resentment. Worst, the battling causes people outside the left see the strife and say, are you kidding? You want me to join your movement? You want me to believe you can do something valuable for society, the way you act? Seriously?
So what causes internal fighting? And what can be done?
While avoiding details, consider a few examples.
Some on the left say that various Muslim religious practices have oppressive, anti-progressive implications. A reply comes. You are racist, western, imperialist, etc. Someone else defends Muslim rights. The reply arrives. You are a religion loving cultural air head. Mud flies.
Someone says Black Lives Matter was censorious or is too close to the Charter Schools movement. A reply follows. You are an agent of white supremacy. Someone else says race needs to be part of all left programs, your narrow focus on economics means you donāt care, you are racist. A response comes. Donāt tell me what I have to do to be radical. Your lack of lack of interest in union busting charter schools means you are a tool of school privatizers. Bam, gloves off. Substance replaced by personal body slams.
Someone says Bernie Sanders doesn’t deserve support due to being pro-Israel, insufficiently anti-drone and quiet about the military budget. The reply comes. You are an irrelevant poser not truly serious about winning change. Someone else says, I urge you to work for Sanders. The response comes. You are pro Democratic party and therefore a bourgeois capitalism accepting tool of elites. Pass the knives.
Someone says Russian bombs will aid the elimination of the Islamic State group and that’s good. A reply comes. You hypocrite, their bombs are good, but ours are bad? Are you pro-imperialism and just anti-U.S.? Someone else says a pox on all imperial houses. The reply arrives. Yes, so you are pure while populations are decimated? Verbal MMA ensues.
Someone says we should fight for a higher minimum wage and is called a reformist who doesnāt care about winning a new economy. Someone else says a minimum wage focus operating alone leaves out too much to lead forward and is called a callous crazy who ignores real peopleās current needs. Pull up a chair, fifteen rounder to follow.
Someone says BDS is tactically flawed and even harmful in some of its implications. The reply is you are a Zionist agent of the West. Someone else says BDS is a wonderful approach, emphasize it, and the reply comes. You are a fool following a herd just to fit in, unconcerned about understanding real possibilities. Nastiness escalates.
Someone criticizes Cuba, Venezuela, or Ecuador, and is called an agent of international corporate capitalism. Someone praises Cuba, Venezuela, or Ecuador and is called a lover of dictatorship and accused of ignoring the real left in those countries. Upper cut, jab, and on from there.
None of the above are precise, all are, however, broadly indicative though actually they all fall far short of the nastiness that often ensues. One minute one can be a wonderful and revered progressive or revolutionary. The next minute, incredibly, one can be labelled an imperial, corporatist, bourgeois sell out, moved by vile motives.
I once watched a highly experienced audience get aggressively hostile toward Noam Chomsky because in a talk he uttered some words that they interpreted as racist toward Japanese people. He went, for them, in a heartbeat, for at least a while, from trusted source of insights and assessments to purveyor of vile white supremacy. I have myself heard lots of folks call me bourgeois, reformist, idiotic, etc. for very specific commitments which go, in such cases, substantively unaddressed. Name calling becomes the substance of argument. Apply a label, and evidence of its inappropriateness becomes irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the label itself.
But why?
When a dispute arises, one approach is to address the issues ā it could be facts that are in dispute, or perhaps impressions of the likely implications of some choice, or, rarely, the merits of some value. To proceed, one would present the substance, assess it, make claims related to it, and so on. Nothing nasty. Just logic and evidence all addressing what is really being said.
Another approach is to jump to the conclusion that the reason a person has a view different than your own is not a dispute over substance, but is simply a different value system, a different agenda, and so motives are what must be addressed. The facts of the specific issue disappear. Imputed bad motives of the person with a different view become paramount.
At the same time, again when a dispute arises, one approach is to be quite relaxed and raise points, facts, evidence, or whatever in a manner one might employ in a dispute with a friend. Another approach is to quickly get highly aggressive and slash and burn using sarcasm and nasty epithets galore.
I think, if we were to exhaustively catalog disputes that become hostile, split inducing, and audience depressing, we would find that virtually every time they move away from substance of difference and toward motives of partisans, and away from calm communications toward hysterical stabs and parries.
Maybe there are lots of reasons this happens, but here is one that strikes me as very often at the heart of it. One or both parties feels their very being, the basis of their self image, is threatened and feeling assaulted replies with aggression, like one would with a thug attacking.
If I think something is totally evident, and to me it is core to my identity as a leftist and a person, and someone argues it is wrong, even harmful, to me it may sound like they are saying I am not what I think ā I am myself, wrong, harmful ā and then, typically, they will actually say it, too. Not surprisingly things go to hell.
If I am insecure in my views, and in their defense, yet I feel they are essential to who I am, if they are challenged, my easy path is to adopt sarcasm, or question motives, anything to move the discussion away from substance and toward my criticsā motives.
When we enfold our self definition in some views we hold, attacks on those views, even sincere ones, feel like attacks on us, as people. Pass the ammunition.
So what is the bottom line? If we have a difference with others, what do we care to accomplish. That is perhaps the best question. If it is to arrive at good views and to see them spread, then getting hostile is quite obviously counterproductive. If it is to get past the battle without revealing our own lack of information or of clarity, or to otherwise protect our self regardless of the impact on others, than grabbing a thesaurus to find the most disparaging words we can muster makes sense.
So at the risk of being guilty of the untoward behavior I am trying to argue against, which is it? Can we be calm, sober, respectful and address substance in pursuit of positive results? Or must we attack, attack, attack, personally, in pursuit of nothing but ego gratification, I guess?
Might we be able to find areas of agreement, clarify areas of disagreement, and work on from there? If we can disentangle our identities from our arguments, perhaps we can.
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17 Comments
I tend to agree that to “disentangle our identities from our arguments” is where the real solution lies.
The kinds of questions that I would like to put out there, that follow from this, are:
What exactly is involved in this process of disentanglement?
Would such a transition constitute a radical shift in Left consciousness?
Is it realistic to simply think “I am not my arguments” and expect that to be enough to address the in house fighting of the kind that Michael discusses?
If left unaddressed, won’t the ego just use that stance as another opportunity to feel superior and then as another stick to beat people with?
I hate to over complicate this issue but I am just not sure that it is as simple as we might like to think.
How does one move from the individual to “Left consciousness”?
And what exactly is “Left consciousness”?
Are we dealing with individuals or groups?
And can groups have egos?
How to disentangle all the individual identities and their complexities from all the arguments and their differences and possible subtleties so the group is clear of identity? Is that really necessary?
You know we’re all gonna have to start sitting at some point. Eyes down on a 45 and half closed. Half lotus or full if you can or on a chair if you can’t. Hands resting gently on your knees or thighs.Tongue lightly tucked behind the top front teeth. Just watching the breath come and go through the mouth slightly open. Nothing more than that. If you lose the breath, just come back to it, no problem. Again and again. Mind in comfort and ease.
But we all know it’s a long hard road to the little red cushion.
I think it is making the thing complicated and problematic. People just aren’t perfect and never will be. People just aren’t always rational or reasonable. Depends on the weather and lots of other stuff and probable fear of death and the absurdity of existence.
You try to talk things through, sort them out. Communicate. Try to get past the shit if you think it worth while. In certain contexts what Michael suggests may work. In others maybe not. Is everyone capable of applying all these reasonable and rational behaviours most of the time? Who knows?
What simplifies should be, could be, collectivity.
In this case – disputes about matters of society, history, strategy, vision, etc. etc. – not the patience and civility and continual effort to ensure clarification, etc. etc. from protagonists (though all that would be nice) but the DEMAND from a much larger circuit of folks, for all those things.
How does a large community demand such things – well – it doesn’t in the sense of a law or rule with punishment and so on. Of course not. It does so , instead, I would say, by establishing a general expectation which, if violated, speaks poorly of the culprit.
Think about how racist epithets disappear, say, or sexist ones. Ignoring excess, it isn’t by the pure wisdom and largess of those who might be racist or sexist. Nor is it by rules which, if people violate, they go to jail or whatever. It is by a far simpler and arguably more powerful dynamic. The community gravitates toward an understanding that certain utterances and types of engagement are simply not civilized, I guess, and that those partaking are not worthy of respect. And how does that understanding get established – largely by folks acting on it, even before others are also doing so, I guess.
Suppose the left, writ large, dumped its idiotic posturing, at least for the most part, but retained a clear and virtually universal commitment to reason and respect and so on, such that violating the expectation, much less doing so even after being told to cool it, was deemed as unjustifiable and unworthy as sexist or racist or classist dismissal of others. What impact would that have?
Imagine when people write or speak unduly disparagingly, personally, etc. if people commented on the behavior, sensitively but persistently indicating that it was unworthy, etc. I suspect it would have an impact.
Yeah, I agree. I think that is all that is needed really, common sense. I also reckon that is what does go on, already. Bad behaviour or idiotic posturing may still sneak through at times, and maybe in some places go unnoticed or unchallenged depending, but on the whole most people call others out, try to talk things through, fix situations, cool them, remedy them, or whatever, most probably via general rules of expectation rather than laws. But sometimes things may just get out of hand before they get better. Happens.
I think that what you suggest is fine, Michael, but the additional questions that I put out there came off the back of your statement – ādisentangle our identities from our argumentsā – and I don’t see how what you suggest in your latest comment even begins to address that.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean by that phrase but it seems to me to point to a much more fundamental understanding of the problem that you discuss in your blog which, in turn, suggests a much more radical solution.
All that said, I do hope that you are right and that what you suggest is all that is needed. One small obstacle, however, might be the fact that the Left’s self-image is already that of “a clear and virtually universal commitment to reason and respect”. This lack of insight is part of the problem but you seem to be proposing it as the solution. All we have to do, you seem to be arguing, is dump our idiotic posturing. Again, to my mind, you seem to be posing the problem as the solution without getting to the root cause.
Help me undestand – I think you are saying, look, people treat each other in these aggressive and hostile and inflexible and kneejerk ways because of deep issues – most generally habits of doing so, feelings that doing so is warranted, receipt of praise for doing so, etc., but, also, further down, due to psychological dynamics whereby the person doing so feels an assault on their very being – just from hearing a criticism or or even just a difference in views – and then lashes out, in reply, in a kind of collectively destructive personal self defense.
At any rate, I think that is the case, and if you do too, then we agree so far.
So now, what to do about it? Well, you may be saying, I am not sure but perhaps, that fixing thist entails some major changes in people’s way of viewing themselves, in their habits, and so on. And of course I would agree that that would have major impact.
But, what causes that? I suppose a huge number of possible answers exist, differing from person to person. Maybe a heartfelt talk would do it for someone. Maybe evidence of harm. Maybe some kind of therapy. And so on.
But, for social movements, these multiple personal possibilities are really not, I think, paramount. For individuals, maybe yes, but for the big overall situation, I think probably not. Aa the large scale what is needed is different relationships and norms, with different results and reactions from others coming from choices. Different incentives and pressures, one might even say. Thus my suggestions.
I suspect political people may tend to align their self imagine and their political commitments a bit more than physical scientists, say – thus being more prone, as individuals, to defensiveness, hostility, and so on, over claims – though I am not sure about that. But something very different happens in the sciences writ large than in political disputes and debates writ large – where the former is not perfect by any means, but is much better. And I would wager that the difference has nothing to do with therapy or anything like that at the personal level – but instead with the overall policies and practices of the physical sciences as compared to those of “politics” and activism. And one can even see where it fails, for the sciences, too, and the failure of the differences in their being weakened or ignored at times is the reason – that is, failure of those different norms and practices – which are mainly testing claims logically and against evidence, including means of circulating the claims and their evaluations without anger, having positive reactions for such behavior and negative for defensiveness, hostility, and more gnerally urging positions without regard for attending to evidence and logic.
If movements prioritized different ends for disputes – not protecting ideology or appearing redical and so on, but unearthing differences and assessing them carefully, and had different practices regarding what gets heard, and so on – and movement organizations had procedures too, then the imperfect and sometimes pretty horrible personal traits and habits we all have picked up as baggage from our perpetual immersion in the rate race world of capitlaism would, or could, be swamped by collective norms and practices – rather like what largely (again not perfectly) happens in, say, the physical sciences.
I don’t know if this is right, the way I know things about, say, U.S. foreign policy, or even the effects of markets on people’s behaviors, but I think it probably is, and so it points toward where change may have to occur – and where it can occur, without first havng perfect people, so as to be better people.
Michael –
We do agree on:
ādue to psychological dynamics whereby the person doing so feels an assault on their very beingā
and
āthat fixing thist entails some major changes in peopleās way of viewing themselves, in their habits, and so onā
But where you start to lose me is when you say:
āBut, for social movements, these multiple personal possibilities are really not, I think, paramount. For individuals, maybe yes, but for the big overall situation, I think probably not. Aa the large scale what is needed is different relationships and norms, with different results and reactions from others coming from choices. Different incentives and pressures, one might even say. Thus my suggestions.ā
What I donāt understand is who you think is going to establish these ādifferent relationships and normsā if the emphasis is not on individuals. I mean, we first have to establish these social norms and that has to be done by groups of people made up of individuals with a certain level of consciousness – part of which would be an ability to ādisentangle our identities from our argumentsā.
So, whilst I ultimately agree with what you say about what is needed at the ālarge scaleā I donāt see what this says about the consciousness raising that is necessary as a precursor for that. Yes, the problem is that we do not have those large scale arrangements in place but to propose that as the solution seems to me to leapfrog over the issue.
Maybe I shouldn’t get involved in this conversation, I feel, but for me a little more specificity on both sides would be welcome. I think I get Michael, I think, and would like to see where Mark is really headed in regard to disentangling identities and consciosness. Loke there’s a bit of saying stuff without saying stuff, at least to me. Beating round the bush so to speak.
I know what you mean James but rushing can also be problematic.
You agree with Michael but I have a problem with the basic logic of his argument. It is probably just a misunderstanding on my part but that is what I am trying to clarify before moving on to explore other aspects of this topic – like the ones you want to discuss.
Given your interest, perhaps you will consider writing something on this as a follow up to Michael’s piece. That would keep the topic alive and the conversation going.
I don’t want anyone to rush. Nor do I want to write anything beyond this. Happy to converse here regardless of the clunky nature of it.
I don’t think there is anything necessarily illogical in what Michael says or proposes. Though I see your point. Some of his sentences are a tad long and a little awkward for me to follow but that’s ok. There is a difference however, that I see between a group of scientists, even largish ones, and a group of radical left activists. The main one being the educational background. One could make the argument that most scientists discussing stuff are of a similar educational level and ability who have attended institutions that create similar disciplined minds. This is most definitely not the case with radical left activists.
I think I understand Michael’s point about movements having different ends for disputes and procedures, collective norms that “swamp” the bad stuff but that comes with patient communication and willingness on those involved to go the distance in building the movement. It involves experience and reason mixed with trial and error, not rocket science, to get there, which is pretty much happening now anyway. It requires people to hang in there even if their entangled politics and identities get themselves, others and the movement into horrible trouble. You know for the greater good.
So those who think humans are pretty useless, flawed beings, who over ten thousand years have been working hard, stupidly and ignorantly, to ruin the very thing keeping them alive and that catastrophe is now coming, maybe imminent, will still devote energy to advocating something like Parecon, or building a movement built on strong vision and good strategy, not just arrogantly berate everyone for being a naive dick about shit without offering something positive.
I don’t see what the problem is. Of course if some organization or party or whatever builds in some rules, that will be done by people who propose and push for it, and others who agree. But it may well be, probably is the case, that none of them are indivdiually beyond being defensive, sectarian, or whatever, even thought they all agree to establish (and some propose in the first place) structures that reduce of even eliminate such tendencies.
Let me put it this way, for simplicity. Suppose we have an organization with 50,000 members. Suppose ten propose some important change that would affect how all 50,000 behave in various situations. Not one of them, or even 1 of the 50,000 now behave in the sought way. Whatever is inside of them that militates against that, is inside of them, and not yet altered. Yet, they overwhelmingly agree with the need for the new relations. They enact them. Now those structures reduce and even very nearly elminate the unwanted behaviors, hopefully, and people’s inner selves likely change too, over time.
The problem is getting an organisation with 50,000 members in the first place, organised in the appropriate way!
Following your simple example I think I now have a much better understanding of what you have in mind and how that could unfold. That said, I still think that there is important work that people can do at the individual level to make values like solidarity more than just an intellectual commitment.
Of course…
My inclination is to think that one key factor is the choices of those beyond the immediate clashes – who typically watch, even take some pleasure in the heated exchanges, but don’t interrupt and settle things toward sensible interactions – for example, saying, okay, what would constitute reason to say one stance is right, or wrong…is there evidence we can agree would matter? Is there a connection or insights we can agree would matter? If yes, does it exist?
And a second key factor is those who are engaged telling themselves and one another what they are trying to achieve – why they are engaged, that is, and why they are so heated, if they are, and so sure of their correctness, if they are – and how they are open to having their views change, if they are.
Perhaps it should be mandatory in a dispute, debate, whatever, that each side demonstrate its ability to present the case of the other side as compellingly, or even more so, than they other side does present it. Then people know they hear each other, and need not just repeat it all over and over. Then they can say why they disagree, and try to focus on that… And then perhaps it should be mandatory for each side to say what would cause them to change their view, if anything. Because if there is nothing, then there is little point to discussion…
And beyond all of that and similar contextual choices, there is a simply a mindset – am I defending my past, my identify, as if I am personally in danger, say – and reason isn’t the issue, survival is – or am I trying to arrive at useful insights and inclinations, with others concerned only that we go forward well, not that my personal views are ratified.
I am not sure there is much else to propose, probably some things, but not too much, that isn’t so vague, so general, and so obvious, that it doesn’t matter – unless, of course, implemented.
I would be interested in hearing other ideas though….
The thing for me is that this conversation is too general. It lacks context. Your ideas may work in certain contexts, with certain people, but would your inclinations here, work during a Chomsky lecture or other less controlled environs? It’s all a little loose.
Small meetings, online discussions with comments with lots or single people, large meetings, lectures, forums, classrooms, onthe street, impromptu whatevers….
Mandatory rules in a debate, sure, if it’s all decided before hand. Some kind of public thing, promoted with or without audience. Or some online thing. But just a discussion, happening. like this one? I’m not so sure.
I’ve read email exchanges between Chomsky and Sam Harris and Chomsky and Monbiot and at times the things got pretty edgy. Almost nasty. On both sides to some degree but in different ways or styles. Chomsky held his ground strongly, not giving an inch and the others at times felt aggrieved at times by what they saw as recalcitrance. I tended to side with Chomsky on substance but wasn’t totally convinced he was being cordial the whole time, whilst standing firm. I thought the others were going a bit over the top at times and resorting to little personal jibes. Feeling the pinch so to speak. The exchange not really going in the direction they may have thought or hoped (they really should do a bit of free improvising, they might learn a thing or two!)
Now these people are all pretty intelligent, been around, used to a bit of intellectual argy bargy and I felt the exchange degenerate a tad as it progressed. Wasn’t over the top bad, but heading down a slope. So even these people used to this stuff couldn’t totally hold it together. Check Media Lens in England for ways to deal with people or journos specifically.
So context includes the particular person at that particular time with all their particular dispositions and characteristics, involved in the discussion.
I’m not so sure the kind of manner or ways discussions or debates could or should be conducted, that you suggest Michael, can be universally applied. They could work in some contexts with certain people but not others. It’s a good hope but I think an overly ideal one.
I really think shit will just happen and people have to try and work their way through it. If successful, great, if not so be it.
Not sure if I’m making sense, being clear or repetitive really, but giving it a shot, and if you disagree, stuff ya then!
That’s a hard one really. A perfect world? We talking face to face here or online discussions? There is a difference and all sorts of problems can arise from reading something which wouldn’t if heard. Sarcasm or humour sometimes doesn’t come across in print. You really have to work it.
Maybe doing what your doing here is the answer. Just talking it through. Talking differences through. Taking the time to do it if you think it worth while. But if the other party refuses to give, doesn’t think it worthwhile, nothing much you can do.
I reckon most people are pretty amicable, but mistakes can be made and some people just have certain manner, are just a hot head or whatever. Some may flat out disagree with you, not give an inch, not budge, even treat you with disdain, without calling you a name and without raising their voice or being nasty at all. They just have that way that shits you. What can you do?
Some people may think their being pretty good and open, listening and responding in ways they think appropriate, not disparaging, yet, the other party may feel aggrieved or insulted by something they said. Can happen online and in person. Then things may spiral out of control or be sorted through communication. Time taken to fix the problem.
Other than that, we all have dispositions, tendencies to behave in certain ways, have buttons that can be pushed, sometimes accidentally, can yell, can insult etc.. Circumstance, age, what sort of dreams or sleep we had that put us in a shitty mood. Just a bad day. Who knows.
We’re only human? How trite! But most of us are pretty good I reckon and try our best and if you don’t believe me you can go and get fucked!