Noam Chomsky ndiye Purofesa weInstitute naProfessor Emeritus muDhipatimendi reLinguistics nePhilosophy paMIT. Mupenyu anonyanya kutaurwa pasi rose, dzidziso dzake dzave nesimba guru muzvidzidzo zve analytic philosophy, psychology, mutauro wemazuva ano, uye computer science. Akanyora pamusoro pemabhuku e100 achiongorora nhepfenyuro, mutemo wekunze weUS, nyaya dzemagariro, nhoroondo yeLatin America neEuropean, nezvimwe.
Takasangana naProfessor Chomsky kuCambridge muna Chivabvu kuti tikurukure nezvekuvandudzwa kwenguva yezvidhori pasi pemutungamiri Obama.
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NC: Ndichangotyaira mangwanani ano ndanga ndichiteerera nhau dzeNPR. Chirongwa chakavhurwa nekuzivisa, nemufaro mukuru, kuti indasitiri yezvidhori iri kuputika nekukurumidza zvekuti makoreji ari kuyedza kubata nekuvhura zvirongwa zvitsva muzvikoro zveinjiniya uye zvichingodaro, uye kudzidzisa tekinoroji yedrone nekuti ndizvo zviri kufa nevadzidzi kudzidza nekuda kwe nhamba inoshamisa yemabasa ari kuitika.
Uye ichokwadi. Kana iwe ukatarisa mishumo yeruzhinji, unogona kufungidzira izvo zvakavanzika zvinyorwa. Izvo zvave zvichizivikanwa kwemakore akati wandei, asi isu tinodzidza zvakanyanya uye zvakanyanya kuti ma drones, kune chimwe chinhu, ari kutopihwa kumatare emapurisa kuti atariswe. Uye ivo vari kugadzirwa kune chero chinangwa chinogoneka. Ndinoreva, nedzidziso, pamwe zvingaite, unogona kunge uine drone saizi yenhunzi inogona kunge ichitenderera nekoko [inonongedzera kuhwindo] ichiteerera zvatiri kutaura nezvazvo. Uye ndinofungidzira kuti hazvizotora nguva yakareba zvisati zvaitika.
Uye zvechokwadi vari kushandiswa kuuraya. Pane mushandirapamwe wekuuraya pasi rose uri kuitika uyo unonakidza kana ukatarisa kuti zvinoitwa sei. Ndinofungidzira kuti munhu wese akaverenga peji rekutanga re ari New York Times nyaya, inova yakadonha kubva kuWhite House, nekuti ivo sezviri pachena vanodada nemashandiro anoita mushandirapamwe wekuuraya pasi rose. Chaizvoizvo Mutungamiri Obama uye chipangamazano wake wezvekuchengetedzwa kwenyika, John Brennan, iye zvino mukuru weCIA, vanoungana mangwanani. Uye Brennan sezviri pachena aimbova muprista. Vanotaura nezvaSt. Augustine nedzidziso yake yehondo chete, vobva vasarudza kuti ndiani achaurayiwa nhasi.
Uye maitiro acho anonakidza. Semuenzaniso, kana, toti, muYemen boka revarume rinoonekwa ne drone rinoungana pedyo nerori, zvinokwanisika kuti vangave vachironga kuita chimwe chinhu chingatikuvadza, saka sei isu tisingave nechokwadi nekuvauraya? Uye kune zvimwe zvinhu zvakadaro.
Uye mibvunzo yakauya pamusoro pezvakaitika pakuita kwakakodzera, uko kunofungidzirwa kuti hwaro hwemutemo weAmerica-inonyatso dzokera kuMagna Carta, makore mazana masere apfuura-zvakadii nazvo? Uye bazi rezvemitemo rakapindura. Attorney General Holder vakati vari kutambira zvakafanira nekuti "zvakakurukurwa mudare repamusoro." Mambo John muzana remakore rechi800, uyo akagombedzerwa kusaina Magna Carta, angadai akafarira mhinduro iyoyo. Asi ndipo patiri kufamba. Nheyo dzemutemo wehurumende dziri kungobvarurwa kuita zvidimbu. Iyi haisi iyo chete nyaya, asi ndiyo inonyanya kushamisa.
Uye maitiro anonakidza. Inokuudza zvakawanda nezvemafungiro enyika. Saka imwe koramu, ndinofunga anga ari Joe Klein, mutori wenhau akasununguka kune imwe yemagazini, akabvunzwa nezve imwe nyaya umo vasikana vana vadiki vakaurayiwa nekurohwa nedrone. Uye mhinduro yake yakaita senge, "Zvakanaka, zviri nani kuti vasikana vavo vaurawe pane vedu.” Saka nemamwe mazwi, pamwe izvi zvakamisa chimwe chinhu chingazotikuvadza.
Pane chengetedzo muUnited Nations Charter inobvumira kushandiswa kwechisimba pasina mvumo yeSecurity Council, kunze kwakamanikana muChinyorwa 51. Asi inonyatso taura nezve "kurwiswa kwava pedyo" kuri kuitika kana kwave pedyo zvakanyanya zvekuti hapana nguva yekufungisisa. Idzidziso inodzokera kuna Daniel Webster, iyo Caroline Doctrine, iyo inotsanangura aya mamiriro. Izvo zvakabvarurwa kuita zvidimbu. Kwete chete kurwisa kwe drone, asi kwenguva yakareba.
Uye saka zvishoma nezvishoma nheyo dzerusununguko dzinobvarurwa kuita zvidimbu, kubvaruka. Chaizvoizvo Scott Shane, mumwe wevanyori ve Times nyaya, yakanyora chinyorwa ichipindura kutsoropodza kwakasiyana kwakaonekwa. Magumo ake zvakanga zvakakodzera, ndakafunga kudaro. Akataura chimwe chinhu senge, "Tarisa, zviri nani pane Dresden." Handizvo here? Ehe. Zviri nani pane Dresden. Saka ndiyo bhawa: isu hatidi kungoparadza zvachose zvese. Tichangovauraya nekuti pamwe nerimwe zuva vachatikuvadza. Pamwe. Zvichakadaro, chokwadi, tiri kuitei kwavari?
Ini ndinofunga ndizvo zvese kubva kune izvo kune zvekutarisa masisitimu anozove emuyero usingafungidzike uye hunhu. Uye zvechokwadi ikozvino data inogona kuunganidzwa nekusingaperi. Kutaura zvazviri Obama anofungidzirwa kuti ane Data kuchengetedza sisitimu iri kuvakwa muUtah kumwe uko kune marudzi ese e data ari kudururwa mukati. Ndiani anoziva chii? Pamwe maemail ako ese, kutaura kwako kwese kwefoni, rimwe zuva zvauri kutaura kuvanhu mumigwagwa, kwawave nguva pfupi yadarika, unoziva, ndiani waunotaura naye, pamwe matani ezvinhu akadaro achave aripo. Pane zvazvinoreva here? Chaizvoizvo, zvichida kwete zvikuru sezvinotya vanhu vakawanda. Ini handifunge kuti iyo data inonyanya kushandiswa. Muchokwadi ini ndinofunga, ndinofungidzira kuti inongo shandiswa kune chinangwa chimwe chete: kana hurumende nechikonzero chimwe kana chimwe ichimirira mumwe munhu. Vanoda kuziva chimwe chinhu nezvemukomana uyu, zvakanaka, saka vanogona kuwana data nezvake. Asi kupfuura izvozvo, nhoroondo uye ruzivo runoratidza kuti hapana zvakawanda zvinogona kuitwa nezvazvo.
Kunyangwe makore makumi mana apfuura, makore makumi mashanu apfuura - ini ndaibatanidzwa panguva iyoyo mukuedzwa kwekurwisa Hondo yeVietnam. Ndakanga ndiri mubatsiri asina mhosva mune imwe kutongwa, ndichiuya kuzotongwa ini, uye ndichitevera mimwe miedzo. Ini ndaifanira kunyatso tarisa kuti mhosva dzaive dzakaita sei zvichienderana neFBI data nezve vanhu. Vaisetsa. Ndinoreva, pane zviitiko pavakasarudza vanhu vasiri ivo. Vakasarudza munhu mumwe, vaireva mumwe munhu. Mune mumwe wemiedzo, ndakaramba ndichivhiringidzika nomukomana ainzi Hershel Cominsky; vaisambogona kuwana mazita echiJuda zvakananga. Zvisingadaviriki. Muchokwadi, mu kutongwa kweSpock vakatsamwisa chaizvo vanhu vaviri: Mark Raskin, wavakaisa pakutongwa uye akanga asingadi kutongwa, uye Art Waskow, uyo aida kutongwa uye wavasina kuisa kutongwa. Zvinogoneka kuti Waskow ndiye munhu wavaitsvaga, asi havana kukwanisa kumusiyanisa naRaskin. Uye havagone kubatanidza nyaya.
Iyo Spock kutongwa inyaya inonakidza kwazvo. Ndakanyatsotevera uya. Ndiko kwandakanga ndiri mubatsiri asina mhosva, saka ndakanga ndigere neboka rekudzivirira, ndichitaura nemagweta uye ndaiziva vanhu vose. Muchuchisi, ari FBI, akaisa nyaya yakaora kudaro mukuchuchisa zvekuti mudziviriri akasarudza kungozorora. Havana kuisa chidziviriro, nokuti dziviriro ingadai yakangosunga pamwe chete zvinhu zvavakanga vasina kuwana. Kwakanga kuri kurangana; chavaifanira kuita kubatanidza zvinhu pamwechete. Uye zvaive pachena nekuti zvese zvaiitika pachena. Ndiyo yaiva nyaya yacho yose. Uye iyo FBI sezviri pachena yaingofuratira zvese zvaive pachena, kusazvitenda, izvo zvinenge zvese zvaivepo. Zvinenge zvese zvaivepo; kwete zvose. Uye kutsvaga imwe mhando yekubatana kwakavanzika kune ndiani-anoziva-chii, North Korea kana chero chaive mupfungwa dzavo.
Asi pano ivo vane data rakawanda, pamberi pemeso avo uye havazive mashandisiro. Uye ndinofunga kuti pane zvakawanda zvakadaro.
SG: Kudzokera kune izvozvo New York Times chinyorwa chawataura: Inotsanangura maitiro ari kuseri kwe "kuuraya runyorwa" uye Pentagon-run misangano kwavanoona kana zita rinogona kuwedzerwa. Nechinyakare, vatungamiri vakachengeta chinhambwe kubva kune pamutemo mashandiro eCIA. Asi ivo Times chinyorwa chinoti Obama ndiye chiremera chekupedzisira pane zita riri kuwedzerwa kune rondedzero. Unogona here kutaura nezve kuvepo kwechinyorwa uye kuti Obama ari padyo sei pakuita?
NC: Zvakanaka, chero yezvirongwa izvi zvinofanirwa kutsoropodzwa zvakanyanya. Kusanganisira rondedzero yemagandanga. Ikozvino pane rondedzero yemagandanga, munoziva, a State Department list yemagandanga. Ingozvitarisa rimwe zuva. Nelson Mandela aive pachirongwa kusvika makore mana apfuura. Pane chikonzero: Ronald Reagan aive mutsigiri akasimba werusaruraganda, uye mumwe wokupedzisira, chaizvoizvo kusvikira kumugumo. Uye zvechokwadi pakupera kwetemu yake, akaramba achitsigira hutongi hwerusaruraganda. Muna 1988 bato reANC, Mandela’s African National Congress, rakanzi ndiro rimwe remapoka emagandanga ane mukurumbira wakashata pasi rose.
Saka ndicho chikonzero chekutsigira hutongi hwerusaruraganda: Icho chikamu chehondo yaReagan yehugandanga. Ndiye akazivisa hondo yehugandanga, kwete Bush. Chimwe chazvo chaive, "Tinofanirwa kudzivirira hutongi hwevachena kubva kumagandanga eANC." Ipapo Mandela akaramba ari pazita racho. Ingori mumakore mashoma apfuura kuti anogona kuenda kuUnited States pasina mvumo yakakosha.
Ndiyo list yemagandanga. Pane dzimwe nyaya. Saka tora, semuenzaniso, Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein akange aonekwa segandanga zviri pamutemo. Akabviswa pazita naRonald Reagan nehutungamiriri hwake muna 1982 nekuti United States yaida kupa rubatsiro nerutsigiro kuna Saddam-izvo zvavakaita, uye vakaedza kuvhara, kune marudzi ese ezvinhu. Asi, zvakanaka, saka abvisa rondedzero. Vane nzvimbo isina chinhu. Saka vanoita sei? Vakapfeka Cuba.
Chokutanga pane zvose, Cuba ndiyo yakanga iri chinangwa chehugandanga hwepasi rose kupfuura dzimwe nyika yose yakabatanidzwa kubvira Kennedy paakatanga hondo yake yegandanga kurwisana neCuba. Asi yakakwira zvakanyanya mukupera kwema'70s. Kupfura ndege nekuuraya vanhu makumi manomwe, kuputika maembassy, marudzi ose ezvinhu. Saka heino nyika inovavarira hugandanga kupfuura chero ani zvake, uye vanoiswa pachirongwa chegandanga kutsiva Saddam Hussein, uyo isu [gare gare] tinofanira kubvisa nekuti hatidi kumutsigira.
Izvo izvo zvinokuudza iwe zvinoshamisa kana iwe ukazvifunga. Ehe, hazvina kumbokurukurwa, izvo zvinokuudzawo chimwe chinhu. Asi ndiyo mhando yemubvunzo watinofanira kunge tichibvunza nezve rondedzero yemagandanga: Ndiani ari pairi uye nei? Uyezve, iruramiso ipi yainayo?
Icho chisarudzo mubazi rehurumende rehurumende, kwete pasi pekutonga kana kumwe kuongorora. Vanoti, “Uri pamagandanga!” Ok. Iwe unonangwa chero chinhu.
Uye mamwe mazita akafanana saizvozvo zvakare. Mazita aMcCarthy ane mukurumbira mienzaniso midiki. Iyi mienzaniso yakakomba, aya mazita ehurumende. Saka kutanga, tinofanira kuisa parutivi pfungwa yokuti kune utsvene hupi nohupi, kunyange chiremera, pandandanda. Hapana. Aya angori sarudzo dzehurumende pakuda kwevakuru nekuda kwezvikonzero zvipi zvavangave nazvo. Kwete rudzi rwechinhu chaunomboremekedza. Chokwadi kwete pakadai.
SG: Pane imwe nguva mune ramangwana riri kure, panogona kunge paine mhosva yakaiswa kuna Obama zviri pamutemo nekuda kwekushamwaridzana kwake kwepedyo nerondedzero yekuuraya?
NC: Ndine chokwadi chekuti anozviziva. Ndinofungidzira kuti ndicho chimwe chezvikonzero zvaita kuti ange akanyatso chenjerera kubvisa makanzuru ese apfuura. Saka hapana kutongwa kwaDick Cheney kana George Bush kana Rumsfeld nekurwadziswa, ndoda zvehasha. Hatikwanise kana kutaura nezvazvo. Zviri pachena kuti US inongosunungurwa kubva kune chero mhosva dzechisimba.
Chaizvoizvo, haina kunyanya kuzivikanwa, asi kusvika kumashure se'40s iyo US yakazvisunungura. Saka United States yakabatsira kugadza Dare Renyika remazuva ano muna 1946, asi yakawedzera kusava nechokwadi: Kuti United States haigoni kupomerwa mhosva yokutyora zvibvumirano zvenyika dzakawanda. Zvavakanga vachifunga, chokwadika, yakanga iri Charter yeUN, hwaro hwemitemo yazvino uno yenyika. Uye iyo OAS Charter, charter yeSangano reAmerica States. OAS Charter ine chirevo chakasimba kwazvo chavanoda kune chero nyika dzeLatin America kupokana nechero nzira yekupindira. Zviripachena, US yaisazoganhurirwa neizvozvo. Uye iyo UN Charter, pamwe chete nenheyo yeNuremberg, iyo yakapinda mairi, yakave neshurikidzo yakaoma kwazvo yehasha, iyo yakanyatsotsanangurwa. Uye vakazvinzwisisa, hongu. Vaigona kuverenga mashoko eMuchuchisi Anokosha weU.S. kuNuremberg, Justice Robert Jackson, uyo akataura zvakanaka kudare racho uye akataura apo vakapa mutongo werufu kuvanhu, zvikurukuru nokuda kwokupara yavaiona se“mhosva huru yenyika yose”—kureva. utsinye, asi vamwe vakawanda—kuti vakanga vachi“pa vanhu ava mukombe une muchetura, uye kana tikaunwa, tinofanira kutongwa kumwe chetewo kana zvikasadaro nyaya dzacho dzose hadzina maturo.” Hazvina kutaurwa zvakanaka, asi zvinofanirwa kuve pachena. Asi pane imwe nzvimbo isingasanganisire US.
Chaizvoizvo, iyo US inobviswa kubva kune zvimwe zvibvumirano zvakare. Zvikuru zvese. Kana ukatarisa magungano epasi rose mashoma akasainwa uye akatenderwa, dzinenge nguva dzose dzine chirevo chokuti “hazvishandi kuUnited States.” Kunonzi non-self executing. Zvichireva, izvi zvinoda mutemo chaiwo kuti uzviratidze. Izvi ndezvechokwadi, semuenzaniso, kune Genocide Convention. Uye ikauya mumatare. Mushure mekubhomba kweYugoslavia muna 1999, Yugoslavia yakapomera NATO kudare, uye dare rakabvuma mhosva yacho. Mitemo yedare ndeyekuti nyika inongopihwa mhosva kana yabvuma hutongi hwedare. Uye nyika dzeNATO dzese dzakagamuchira hutongi hwedare, kunze kumwe chete. IUS yakataura kudare uye yakataura kuti US haisi pasi peGenocide Convention. Imwe yemhosva yaipomerwa yaiva yokuparadza rudzi. Saka iyo US haisi pasi peGenocide Convention nekuda kwekusabvumidzwa kwedu.
Saka kusadzivirirwa kubva mukupomerwa hakusi kungoitwa, uye zvechokwadi tsika-haikwanise kufungidzirwa mutsika, iyo inofadza kutaura pamusoro petsika. Asi zvakare kunyangwe zviri pamutemo.
Kutaura idi, mubvunzo mumwe chetewo ungabvunzwa pamusoro pokutambudzwa. Iyo Bush manejimendi yave ichipomerwa, zvakanyanya uye zvakanyanya, nekuita kurwadzisa. Asi kana yakambotongwa ndinofunga gweta redziviriro ringave nechimiro chekutora: US haina kumbobvira yasaina UN Torture Convention. Yakasaina nekuibvumira, asi mushure mekunge yanyorwazve neSeneti. Uye yakanyorwa patsva kuti isabatanidze mafomu ekurwadzisa aishandiswa neCIA, ayo avakange vakwereta kubva kuRussian KGB.
Yakanyatsodzidzwa naAlfred McCoy, mumwe wenyanzvi dzinotungamira dzakabata nekushungurudzwa. Anotaura kuti KGB/CIA inotambudza, sezviri pachena vakaona kuti nzira yakanaka yekushandura munhu kuita muriwo ndiyo inonzi “kurwadziswa mupfungwa.” Kwete maelectrodes kunhengo dzesikarudzi, asi mhando dzezvinhu zvaunoona muGuantanamo uye Abu Ghraib, anonzi kurwadziswa kwepfungwa. Havasiyi mavanga pamuviri, kunyanya. Ndiyo nzira yakanaka uye tinozviita. Kutaura zvazviri, tinozviita mumajeri epamusoro-soro nguva dzose. Uye saka chibvumirano chakanyorwa patsva kuti tisabatanidze rudzi rwezvinhu zvinoitwa neCIA uye zvatinoita uye zvinongoitwa kumba, kunyangwe izvo zvisina kuuya. Uye yakabva yasainwa mumutemo wepamba, ndinofunga pasi peClinton.
Saka Bush Administration ine mhosva yekurwadzisa pasi pemutemo wepasirese here? Hazvisi pachena zvachose. Muchokwadi hazvisi pachena zvachose kuti ndiani angave. Kuti udzoke kumubvunzo wako wekutanga, ndinofunga kuti Obama ane zvikonzero zvakakomba zvekuve nechokwadi chekuti, sekutaura kwaanoita, "inguva yekutarisira kumberi, kwete kumashure." Ndiyo magariro emutsotsi.
SG: Mune mamwe magwaro akaburitswa akatorwa mumwedzi wapera, chimwe chezvinhu zvakaburitswa mugwaro re Times uye muMcClatchy akataura nezvekuti CIA yakaderedza sei kushandiswa kwayo kwenzvimbo dzevatema muchidimbu nekuda kwekutya kutongwa, kuti vakuru vavo vapomerwe mhosva sematsotsi ehondo. Saka uchifunga zvawabva kutsanangura, nei CIA ingatya zvakakwana kugadzirisa marongero ayo?
NC: Zvakanaka, chavanotya, ndingafungidzira, imhando yezvinhu izvo Henry Kissinger sezviri pachena anotya paanenge aenda kunze kwenyika. Pane pfungwa ye "universal jurisdiction" iyo inobatwa zvakanyanya. Zvinoreva kuti kana tsotsi rehondo, munhu akaita mhosva dzakakomba dzehondo, mhosva huru-haifanire kunge iri mhosva dzehondo-akasvika munharaunda yako, nyika iyoyo ine kodzero yekumuunza kumatare edzimhosva. Uye inonzi "universal jurisdiction." Iyo imhando yenzvimbo ine mumvuri yezvinhu zvepasirese, asi yakashandiswa. Iyo Pinochet kesi muLondon yaive nyaya yakakurumbira. Dare reBritain rakasarudza kuti hungu, vaiva nekodzero yokumudzosera kuChile kunotongwa.
Uye kune zvimwe zviitiko. Parizvino, semuenzaniso, kune zviitiko zvichangoburwa apo vakuru vakuru veIsrael vanga vachityira kuuya kuLondon, uye mune dzimwe nguva nzendo dzavo dzakamiswa nekuti dzinogona kuve pasi pesimba repasirese. Uye zvakashumwa, zvirinani, kuti zvimwe chetezvo nezvimwe zvinonetsa Kissinger. Uye ndinofunga kuti pamwe ndizvo zvaari kureva. Iwe haugone kuve nechokwadi kuti. . . munoziva, simba riri kuwedzera kusiyana-siyana munyika. IUS ichiri nesimba rakawandisa, asi hapana sezvayaimbova. Kune mienzaniso yakawanda yeizvi. Uye iwe haugone kuve nechokwadi izvo vamwe vachaita.
Uye muenzaniso unoshamisa wezvirambidzo zvesimba reUS panyaya iyi wakabuda muongororo yakashumwa, asi handifungi kuti chikamu chakakosha chayo chakataurwa—ndicho. chidzidzo chekurwadzisa pasi rose yakabudiswa neOpen Society Forum masvondo mashoma apfuura. Unozoiwana mupepanhau. Yakanga iri chidzidzo chekushandura. Kudhindisa, sezvinei, imhosva huru, zvakare, inodzokera kuMagna Carta, zviri pachena. Kutumira vanhu mhiri kwemakungwa kunotambudzwa. Asi iyo yakavhurika mutemo ikozvino. Uye ichi chaive chidzidzo chekuti nyika dzakatora chikamu mazviri. Uye zvakazoitika kuti dzaipfuura nyika makumi mashanu, zhinji dzeEurope, Middle East, uko kwavakaendeswa kunotambudzwa. Ndiko kwaiva nevadzvanyiriri, Asia neAfrica. Imwe kondinendi yakanga isipo zvachose. Hapana kana nyika imwe yaida kutora chikamu mumhosva huru iyi: Latin America. Uye mumwe munhu akataura izvi, Greg Grandin, muLatin Americaist paNYU, asi ndiye ega munhu wandakaona akazvinongedza.
Izvo zvakakosha zvakanyanya. Latin America yaimbova "seri kwemba." Vakaita zvatakataura kana kuti takapidigura hurumende. Zvakanaka, zvakare, mukati memakore aya yaive imwe yenzvimbo dzepasi rose dzekutambudza. Asi ikozvino simba reUS radzikira zvakakwana zvekuti vechinyakare, vakavimbika vashandi vari kungoramba. Zvinoshamisa. Uye hausi iwo chete muenzaniso. Saka, kudzokera kuhutongi hwepasirese, haugone kuve nechokwadi chekuti vamwe vachaitei.
Munoziva, ndinofanira kutaura, handina kumbotarisira zvakawanda kuna Obama, kuti akuudzei chokwadi, asi chinhu chimwe chete chakandishamisa kurwisa rusununguko rwevanhu. Ini handisi kuvanzwisisa.
ZNetwork inopihwa mari chete kuburikidza nerupo rwevaverengi vayo.
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