Mubvunzurudzo iyi paUniversity yeArizona muTucson, Arizona, ndakagara pasi naMuzvinafundo Noam Chomsky kuti tikurukure zvematongerwo enyika nezvesarudzo, tarisiro yebudiriro muma primaries arikuuya, uye matambudziko anotarisana nevanokwikwidza nemidziyo yavo yemukati yebato, nhepfenyuro nemari yakawanda. vanopikisa, pamwe nekufamba nehurongwa hwakaoma hwekunze nezvinzvimbo. Chomsky anozeya pamusoro pekuenderera mberi kwekuzunguza kwemushandirapamwe weSanders pamwe nenyaya ine dambudziko reBDS uye kuti vanofambira mberi nemapato echitatu vanogona kurongazve uye kudzoreredza mafungiro emberi kuti vatarise zvakare musarudzo dzinouya.
Daniel Falcone: The "blue wave" wakaita somukana wekutora progressive bapiro yeDemocratic Party uye kubatanidza kune vesocialists uye Greens. Zvakawanda kumufaro wevezvenhau vemakambani, vanofambira mberi munguva pfupi yapfuura vakarova zvimwe zvipingamupinyi uye zvipingamupinyi mu maprimaries, kunyangwe ndaida kukubvunza nezve social democratic kana New Deal styled vanoda kukwikwidza vari kubuda musarudzo dziri kuuya, senge. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez uye Julia Salazar muNew York City, pamwe neruzhinji rwevamwe vanofambira mberi senge Jasmine Robinson uye Zephyr Teachout vanouyawo mupfungwa dzangu pachangu. Iwe unoona here kungangoita kunyura kwenguva refu, kwechero rudzi, kwevanopa kirasi-yakatarisana nezvematongerwo enyika nevamiriri ava kunyanya kana mapato echitatu akabatana mukutsigira mapuratifomu kana mapuratifomu akafanana uye zvinopesana?
Noam Chomsky: Iyo ihondo chaiyo. Ndinoreva, isu hatisi kubata nemubvunzo mudiki. Izvi zvingangoita zvese zveAmerica nhoroondo yezvematongerwo enyika. Izvi zvinodzokera kumashure sezvaungarangarira Mark Hanna, aive murongi mukuru wedanidziro yekupera kwezana ramakore rechigumi nemapfumbamwe. In 1895 akabvunzwa kuti, โNdezvipi zvinhu zvinonyanya kukosha panhimbe yezvamatongerwe enyika?โ Akati, โPane zvinhu zviviri. Chekutanga imari, uye ndakanganwa kuti chechipiri chaive chii. Akanga ari 1895. Saka, izvi zvakadzika midzi. Iwe wakaona Nyaya yaTom Ferguson shanda pazviri. Haisi iyo White House chete; zvakare iCongress. Muchokwadi, handizive kana iwe wakaona kudzidza kwaTom nezvesarudzo dze2016, chidzidzo chakakosha, chinoratidza uye ruzivo rwekuti mumavhiki mashoma ekupedzisira emushandirapamwe kuumbwa kweRepublican, avo vaisada Trump, vakaziva kuti. panogona kunge paine hombe yeDemocratic wave - iyo yavaisada zvechokwadi.
Mumavhiki mashoma ekupedzisira emushandirapamwe, pakanga paine hombe mafashamo emari zvese zvePresident neCongress, uye akati kana ukazvienzanisa nemaitiro ekuvhota, semazuva ese [ivo] vakachinja pamwe chete [padivi] nemari yemushandirapamwe yezvishambadzo zvisina kunaka. Uye, kutaura zvazviri, ndizvo zvakakonzera sarudzo dzeCongress neWhite House. Yakanga isiri Trump chete, yaivewo Congress. Saka, ndizvo kumwe kukunda kwekushandisa mari yemushandirapamwe. Uyu ndi2016, uye [kwete kure kubva 1895].
Chinhu chinoshamisa nezve 2016 yaive mushandirapamwe weSanders. Ndekekutanga munhoroondo yeAmerica kuti mumiriri anogona kunge akahwina, dai yanga isiri yemamaneja emapato vaimuchengeta kunze, asina mari kubva kumakambani emakambani, uye asina mari kubva kune vakapfuma, uye pasina rutsigiro rwenhau. Saka, kubudirira chaiko, asi kuita [kuora kungangoita kweboka revanopa] kuenda kumberi kunenge kwakaoma nekuti kuchavewo nekuunganidzwa kwekuedza kudivi rekirasi yese yecapitalist, Republican neDemocrat, kudzivirira kuti zvisaitike. Muchokwadi, dai Sanders akamhanya ndinofunga angadai akaurayiwa neparaganda, uye ingadai iri nhema huru pamusoro peuyu muJudha, asingatendi kuti kuna Mwari, mukomunisti anoda kuunza vatorwa kuti vauraye munhu wese.
Zvakafanana nezvaunoona nazvo Jeremy Corbyn. Ndinoreva, maTories neBato reLabour - maParamende eVashandi, vakomana veBlair, vezvenhau, senge The Guardian- ivo vese achiedza kumuparadza. Uku kurwiswa kwazvino kwaari nekuda kwekurwisa-Semitism kunongova kupenga, asi ivo vachaita chero chinhu kuedza kuparadza mikana yake nekuti ari kuedza kugadzira bato rezvematongerwo enyika iro vanhu vanotora chikamu; kwete chete vakomana vakapfuma uye vane simba vanokuudza zvekuita, uye izvo hazvigoneke. Saka, ndinofunga kuti pamwe ichave hondo chaiyo.
Daniel Falcone: Ndakaverenga tsananguro yako maererano nekufambira mberi uye Israeri uye ndakaiona inonakidza kwazvo, kwaunonongedza aimbova mhedziso mudiwa weinofambira mberi yakasununguka America, Israel, yave kushandura tsigiro yayo kune hutongi hwekurudyi, ichirasikirwa neDemocratic Party. Izvi zvinogadzira here mukana kune vesocial democrat uye nerutsigiro rwavo rwepamusoro rwechinhu chakaita seBDS kuti vafambe kupfuura purojekiti yezvisina maturo kupinda munzvimbo yechokwadi kumiririra kuPalestine mukuona kwako? Uye kubva panguva iyoyo yekutanga, zvinogoneka here kuti kunyange maDemocrats akakurumbira anogona kuswedera pedyo nekugamuchira mitemo chaiyo inoratidza kushushikana kwechokwadi kwekodzero dzePalestine, sezvo mapoka ose achiita seanoenda mberi kuruboshwe panyaya iyi?
Noam Chomsky: Haisi iyo yakasara. Tora iyo Chechi yePresbyterian; izvo hazvisi kuruboshwe. Vakatora chimiro chakasimba pakuramwa padanho - hapana zvirango. Ichokwadi B.D., kwete BDS, asi vakazviita nenzira yazvinoita. Vainyanya kufunga nezvenzvimbo dzakagarwa uye nevepasi rose veUS vari kutora chikamu munzvimbo dzakagarwa. Iyo BDS kufamba haigone kufunga. Ivo vari kuita nenzira inokanganisa zvinangwa zvavo. Ivo vari kusimbirira kuti vatarise kuIsrael, munoziva - vakomana vechikoro, tsika dzetsika. Unogona kuita nharo nazvo, asi hazvisi kuzoshanda.
Izvozvo hazvina kumboitika muSouth Africa. Pese [BDS painoita zvinhu izvi] inotungamira kumusana, uko kwakasimba kupfuura kuedza. Uye zvinongotsausa pfungwa kubva kumaPalestine kuenda kuzvinhu zvisina basa, serusununguko rwedzidzo. Munofanira kutanga kukakavadzana pamusoro pazvo. Ndinoreva, iro harisi dambudziko. Asi Chechi yePresbyterian yakanga ine pfungwa yakanaka, uye handiyo yakasara shure kwezvose. Ndiyo imwe yemakereke makuru munyika. Inochengetedza. Asi kana sangano reBDS riine pfungwa, vanenge vachitevedzera mutemo iwoyo uye vanenge vachiita zvinhu zvavasiri kuita.
Saka, semuenzaniso, unogona kuita nharo yakasimba yekuti rubatsiro rwese rwemauto eUS kuIsrael rwuri kutyora mutemo weUS. Tarisa uone Leahy Amendment, uri mutemo weU.S. Inoti haugone kupa chero rubatsiro rwemauto kumauto ehondo kana masangano anobatanidzwa mukushungurudzwa kwekodzero dzevanhu kwakarongeka, uye mune iyo IDF zvave zvakanyanya. Chaizvoizvo, Leahy akabvunzwa nezvazvo, uye anoti, "Zvakanaka, unoziva, pamwe." Asi Amnesty International iri kuzvisundira; Human Rights Watch irikusundidzira, asi kwete sangano reBDS. Vanoda kuita chimwe chinhu chichaita kuti vaIsraeri vasagadzikana zvokuti havasi kufunga nezvekushandisa mikana.
Asi ini ndinofunga zvauri kutaura zvinogoneka, uye hazvizove zvakadaro Democratic Socialists [kunyanya kunetseka pamusoro penyaya]. Kune vanhu vakawanda munyika vasingaone chero chikonzero chekupa rubatsiro rwemauto kune dzimwe nyika zvachose. Nei tichifanira kuzvipa kuIsraeri? Ndinoreva nyika inosora United States, senge Jonathan Pollard. Vakuru veUS vakati zviito zveIsrael zvinokuvadza mauto eUS. Tamba nazvo kwechinguva, semuno muArizona, semuenzaniso. Saka, pane zvakawanda zvinobvira.
Izvo [zvese] zvinofadza kwazvo [zvine tarisiro yevakasarudzwa maDemocrats kuti vabatane neinofambira mberi pfungwa nekuita]. Mukomana achangobva muhofisi mangu aive mukomana ainakidza. Aive muU.S. Intelligence kweanenge makore 20 - ese gung-ho yeIraq neAfghanistan, asi akaita seakatendeuka - anove Puerto Rican. Anotsamwiswa zvikuru nenyaya yekuti maPuerto Ricans haagone kuwana maSanders kana Ocasio-Cortez kuti atore chirevo chakareruka sekubvumidza. VePuerto Ricans kuti vavhote. Asi izvo zvinodzokera kumubvunzo wako wekutanga nezve zvematongerwo enyika anotungamirwa nevapi.
Daniel Falcone: Inonakidza. Asi izvi zvinovimbisa, ava verudzi rweDSA vanouya pamberi, mungabvuma here?
Noam Chomsky: Zvinovimbisa, asi ndinoda kuona Sanders anobuda zvakanyanya uye uti Trump ichokwadi pane [dzimwe] mitemo yenyika. Ndinofunga angave [akarovererwa nevezvenhau.] Zvimwe zviri nani kuti arege kuzvitaura, asi zvingava zvakanaka kugadzira kunzwisisa kwevanhu kusvika pakuti kana akazvitaura, zvingagamuchirwa. Sei uchisiya zvakadaro Rand Paul- mupengo chaiye - kutaura, hongu, ane kodzero yekuderedza kusawirirana neRussia. Paul ari muMoscow iye zvino. Akapa hurukuro nomumwe mukuru mukuru weRussia umo akanga ane mufungo chose chose. Uye, chokwadi, ari kutukwa nokuda kwayoโkunyombwa. Havana kana basa nekumushora, vanongomuseka.
Daniel Falcone: Ndinoziva Ocasio-Cortez mukumirira kwake chigaro aipa maonero akajeka pamusoro pezvematongerwo enyika kuMideast neDemocratic Party, zvimwe zvinhu zvayo, kunyanya chikamu chakakodzera, zvinosiririsa kuti aisatomboda matauriro ari pakati nepakati. Ini ndanga ndichitarisira kuti kupfava uku paIsrael kweDemocratic Party kwaizova mukana wekutambanudza iyo mamiriro emutemo wekunze, uye kuita kuti ifambire mberi.
Noam Chomsky: Pakati pezvakakurumbira base, hongu, asi iwe unofanirwa kubata nenhau. Iwe unofanirwa kubata nemuchina wese wepropaganda. Ndinoreva, kana vamiriri ava vakataura chero chinhu, unofanirwa kubata neDemocratic Party zvishandiso, uye havazoshiviriri chero kushoropodzwa. Pane kupatsanurana chaiko muDemocratic Party, pakati pehwaro nehutungamiriri. Ivo [DSA] vari kutsika nzira yakaoma. Ndinovenga kuvashora zvakanyanya, asi, hongu, ndinoda kuti vazvitaure, asi ndinogonawo kunzwisisa kuti sei vangave vasingade [kusundira kuruboshwe].
Noam Chomsky: Handizive kuti maGreens ari kubata sei izvi?
Daniel Falcone: Iwo maGreens anowirirana zvakanyanya mukupokana necarceral state, hondo, uye US zviito zvehutsinye. Greens zvakare inotsigira BDS, uye mamwe anotsigira BDS nemapako, seaya aunounza. Semuyenzaniso, ini zvinoitika kugovera maonero ako pamusoro BDS. Zvinoita kuti kuve nhengo uye hukama hwevanhu, mapoka uye masangano ezvematongerwo enyika zviome kwandiri mazviri Staten Island zvikuru sei. Asi nezve "kuwana mari kubva mune zvematongerwo enyika" senge mune Bronx, semuenzaniso, Green Party - vese vaimbova vatsigiri veSanders.
Ini ndinotaura nezvemubvunzo weBDS nekuti ndinotenda kuti yakasimudzwa zvakanyanya sepuratifomu nekuti inzvimbo yakachengeteka yekutora iri kunze kwepfungwa dzevanhu vazhinji. Iri kushandiswa sechirongwa chisina maturo neDemocratic Party nevezvematongerwo enyika vanoshuvira kubata chigaro vachiziva kuti hachiuyi muripo - kungonzwa zvakanaka cheki chiratidzo, asi pamwe izvo zvichachinja nekuchinja kwawataura munguva pfupi yapfuura. Dememocracy Zvino!
Noam Chomsky: Ndizvozvo, asi ndinofunga kuti unofanira kunyatsofunga [zvekubatsira vanhu kuti vazvione] zvichida. Zvakare, kune zvinhu zvakadai seChechi yePresbyterian, avo vari nani zvikuru kupfuura sangano reBDS, nokuti vari kunyatsofunga. Chekutanga pane zvese, ihuru, huwandu hukuru hwevanhu. Uye vari kutarisa pazvinhu zvinonyanya kukosha.
Tarisa kuSouth Africa. Ndinoreva, pakakwirira peapartheid, Howard Zinn akaenda kunopa hurukuro kuCape Town, icho chakanga chiri chinhu chakanaka zvikuru nemhaka yokuti ikoko aigona kupa hurukuro dzokushora rusaruro. Same kana munhu weAmerica akaenda kunopa hurukuro kuTel Aviv University, iye kana iye aizorwiswa nesangano reBDS, iro rinopenga. Kutaura zvazviri, zvakaitika. Ndakakokwa kuzopa hurukuro paHebrew University, chaizvoizvo nokuda kwechirangaridzo cheshamwari yekare iyo yakanga iri murwiri chaiyeiye wekodzero dzePalestine, sezvakaita mwanasikana wake, uyo akaironga. Akanga aita zvakawanda kupfuura vanhu vose vari muBDS vakamboita; [saka mafambiro anoita zvese mukati mehurongwa hwematongerwo enyika esarudzo achanakidza].
Daniel Falcone: Pakupedzisira, sezvamunoziva, ndiri kumhanya se Green Party Mumiriri pamwero wenzvimbo yeNew York's 61stState Assembly District. Ini pachangu, John Dennie, uye nhamba ye Green candidates, kunyanya, Howie Hawkins uye Jia Lee, vari kushandisawo nguva ino munhoroondo senzira yevanoda kumirira masocialist kuti vafambire mberi chirongwa chine musoro chegwara kunze kwesimba rekambani. Iwe unofungei nezveGreen Party kana kugona kwemapato echitatu anofambira mberi uye tarisiro yavo yezvematongerwo enyika esarudzo munguva pfupi iri kutevera?
Noam Chomsky: Muhurongwa hwezvematongerwo enyika hweUS, kusawirirana kwakamisikidzwa kumapato akazvimirira. Zvakangodaro, bato rakaita seGreens rine mukana padanho renzvimbo uye pamwe rimwe zuva kunyange nhanho dzenyika, uye nekuvhota kwefusion, inogona kubudirira kunyangwe kupfuura. Uye kuvapo chaiko kweGreens - kwete makore ese mana, asi zvakatsiga - kunogona kushandura hunhu hwekunzwisisa kwevanhu munzira dzinogona kuve nemhedzisiro yakanaka.
ZNetwork inopihwa mari chete kuburikidza nerupo rwevaverengi vayo.
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