Michael Lerner (ML): Iwe wakaita ongororo yakanakisa yesimba reiyo capital capital uye kugona kwayo kukanganisa kuyedza kwevagari vemo kushandura chokwadi chepasirese kuti chive nyika ine hunhu uye ine rupo. Kana paine bato rakakomba muUS rakagadzirira kupikisa capital yepasirese, bato rakadaro rinofanira kuitei? Kana kuti, sezvinofungwa nevakawanda, kusava netariro, kupiwa simba guru rekutonga nhepfenyuro, kukanganisa mafambiro egutsaruzhinji, uye kushandisa masimba emapurisa/echiuto uye simba remubatanidzwa rekuvaraidza vanhu vakawanda, mitambo isingaperi, uye muripo wemari kune vakawanda vanhu vakangwara zvikuru vanouya kuburikidza nekushanda-kirasi uye nzira dzepakati? Ndeipi nzira ine musoro kune bato rinotsvaga kuvaka nyika ine hutsanana hwemhoteredzo, kururamisira mumagariro, uye runyararo, asi ichitarisana nehurongwa hwemagariro hwakaoma kudaro, hune simba, uye hwakarongeka?
Noam Chomsky (NC): Hapana kupokana kuti mari yakazvimiririra yakabatana zvakanyanya nehurumende ine zviwanikwa zvakakura, asi nerumwe rutivi hatifanire kufuratira chokwadi chekuti zvakati wandei zvakawanikwa kuburikidza nekurwira veruzhinji muUS mumakore apfuura. Munzira dzakawanda iyi inoramba iri nyika yakasununguka zvisingaite. Hurumende ine simba shoma rekumanikidza, zvichienzaniswa nedzimwe nyika dzakawanda, chiri chinhu chakanaka kwazvo. Kodzero zhinji dzakawanwa, kunyangwe muchizvarwa chakapfuura, uye izvo zvinopa nhaka yatingaendera mberi kubva mairi. Kurwira rusununguko uye kururamisira hakuna kumbova nyore, asi kwakawana budiriro; Handifungi kuti tinofanira kufunga kuti pane mimwe miganhu.
Parizvino isu hatigone kutaura zvine musoro nezve dambudziko renyika, nekuti mafambiro anogona kuita basa rakadaro akapararira zvakanyanya uye atomisikidzwa uye akatarisana nezvimwe zvinhu. Asi isu tinogona kuedza kunangana zvakananga izvo capital capital yepasirezvino iri kuita izvozvi uye, pahwaro hweizvozvo, enderera mberi kune zvimwe zvakabudirira. Semuenzaniso, hachisi chakavanzika chikuru kuti mumakore makumi matatu apfuura kwave nekuwanda kwehupfumi muchikamu chidiki kwazvo chevanhu, 1 muzana kana kunyange chikamu chimwe mugumi che1 muzana, uye izvo zvakapa simba rinoshamisa rezvematongerwo enyika pane zvakanyanya. vashoma vashoma, kunyanya [avo vanodzora] mari yemari, asiwo zvakanyanya pavakuru uye maneja makirasi. Panguva imwecheteyo, kune ruzhinji rwevanhu, mihoro yakadzikira, maawa ekushanda awedzera, mabhenefiti akadzikira - anga asina kumbonyanya kunaka - uye vanhu vakatsamwa, vanovenga, uye vakagumbuka. Vanhu vazhinji havavimbi nemasangano, ose; inguva isina kugadzikana, uye inguva inogona kufamba munzira ine ngozi zvikuru - kune analogue, shure kwezvose - asi inogonawo kupa mikana yekudzidzisa nekuronga uye kuendesa zvinhu mberi. Mumwe anogona kunge aine chinangwa chenguva refu chekutarisana nehupfumi hwenyika, asi panofanirwa kuve nenhanho diki munzira usati watombofunga kuita dambudziko rehukuru ihwohwo nenzira inogoneka.
Mabhizimisi Anotungamirirwa Nevashandi
Mienzaniso inonyanya kukurudzira yevashandi vanotora mafekitori vanga vachibva kuArgentina. Sin Patron, rakabudiswa muchiRungu neHaymarket Books, rinotaura nemazwi evashandi vega nyaya dzenzvimbo gumi dzakagarwa uye dzakadzoserwa mabasa.
ML: Uri kuona here nzira yekukunda kupatsanurana kuripo pakati pemafambisirwo emagariro evanhu kubatsira vanhu kuti vaone imwe hurongwa hwekugovana?
NC: Kumwe kutadza kwemasangano andakaona mumakore akawanda ndeekuti kunyange zvazvo vachitarisa zvinhu zvakakosha zvikuru uye zvakakosha zvemagariro evanhu sekodzero dzevakadzi, kuchengetedzwa kwezvakatipoteredza, nezvimwe zvakadaro, vanenge vasingatarisire kana kurerutsa matambudziko ehupfumi nemagariro. vakatarisana nevanhu vanoshanda. Hazvirevi kuti vanofuratirwa zvachose, asi vanoderedzwa. Uye izvo zvinofanirwa kukundwa, uye kune nzira dzekuzviita. Saka, kutora muenzaniso wekongiri padhuze nekwandinogara, iko zvino kune dhorobha riri pedyo neBoston uko kambani yepasi rose iri kuvhara chirimwa chemuno nekuti haina pundutso yakakwana kubva pakuona kwevenyika dzakawanda. Nhengo dzevashandi vakazvipira kutenga chirimwa nemidziyo, uye vemarudzi akawanda havadi kuita izvozvo; zvingatoda kurasikirwa nemari pane kupa mukana kune mushandi anozvitarisira wega chirimwa chinogona kubudirira. Uye vemarudzi akawanda vane simba rekuita zvavanoda, hongu. Asi rutsigiro rwakakwana rwakakurumbira - rutsigiro rwenharaunda, rutsigiro rwemuratidziri, zvichingodaro - runogona kutsveta chiyero. Zvinhu zvakadai zviri kuitika munyika yose.
Tora kutora kwaObama chaiko kweindasitiri yemotokari. Paiva nezvakawanda zvokusarudza panguva iyoyo. Imwe sarudzo, yakasarudzwa nehutungamiriri hwaObama, yaive yekudzoreredza kurongeka kwekare, kubatsira mukuvharwa kwezvirimwa, kuchinjika kwekugadzirwa kunze kwenyika uye zvichingodaro, uye pamwe kuwana indasitiri yemotokari inoshanda zvakare. Imwe nzira ingadai iri yekutora zvirimwa izvi — zvirimwa zviri kuputswa — tozvishandura kuita zvinhu zvinonyanya kudiwa munyika, senjanji inomhanya zvikuru — imhosva kuti United States haina rudzi urwu. yezvivakwa, izvo zvakagadziridzwa nedzimwe nyika dzakawanda. Muchokwadi panguva chaiyo iyo Obama aivhara zvirimwa kuMidwest, munyori wake wezvekufambisa aive muEurope achiedza kuwana zvibvumirano kubva kuSpain zvekuvaka njanji yekumhanya, izvo zvingadai zvakaitwa mune izvo zvidyarwa zvaive zvichibviswa.
Kufamba munzira yandinofunga kuti zvingatora kurongeka kwakakura, rutsigiro rwenharaunda, rutsigiro rwenyika, uye kucherechedzwa kuti kugadzirwa kwevashandi vega kwakanangana nezvido zvemagariro chaiwo isarudzo inogona kutevedzwa; kana ikateverwa, unofamba uchienda padanho rekuziva, uye rinogona kuenderera mberi richibva ipapo. Sezvineiwo, izvozvo hazvina kana kukurukurwa.
Kuvandudza Bumbiro reMitemo?
ML: Tikkun uye Network of Spiritual Progressives vakaronga Kugadziriswa kweEnvironment and Social Responsibility kuBumbiro reMitemo kana ESRA [iverenge pa spiritualprogressives.org/ESRA], yatinofunga kuti inogona kubatanidza zvikamu zvakawanda zvemasimba akasununguka uye anofambira mberi munyika ino. Zvinotanga nechikamu chekutanga chinoburitsa mari musarudzo dzenyika nekurambidza mari dzemunhu musarudzo uye zvinoda kuti dzipiwe mari neveruzhinji. Inopidigura Citizens United, zvinoda kuti vezvenhau vape nguva yakaenzana uye yemahara kune vese vanokwikwidza, uye inorambidza chero kushambadza kwakavanzika mumwedzi sarudzo dzisati dzaitwa. Zvinobva zvaenda kunyaya dzemakambani ezvakatipoteredza nemagariro uye zvinoda kuti chero kambani ine mari inodarika madhora zana pagore inofanirwa kuwana gwaro idzva rekambani kamwe chete makore mashanu ega ega; kuti iwane charter, mubatanidzwa unofanirwa kuratidza nhoroondo inogutsa yezvakatipoteredza uye zvemagariro mutoro kune jury revagariwo zvavo kuitira kudzivirira kutonga kwemasangano anodzora nevanhu vavanofanirwa kunge vachitonga.
Ini ndinoshamisika kana rudzi urwu rwepfungwa rune musoro kwauri, kwete sechimwe chinhu chingangopfuura asi sechimwe chinhu chingango gadzira hurongwa hunogona kubatanidza uye hunopa vanhu muono wakajeka wezvaungaite sekuwana. kufambira mberi kwakakosha kune kutonga kwedemocracy munharaunda uye kumwe kutaridzika kwemutoro kubva kumakambani.
NC: Ndinofunga kuti idzo pfungwa dzandingatsigira. Ndine chokwadi chekuti dzinogona kushandiswa kuronga uye dzidzo, asi kudzamara izvo zvekuronga uye kuedza kwekudzidzisa kwasvika pakakwirira kupfuura chero munhu angafungidzira nhasi, zvikumbiro hazvigone kuita. Saka hongu, sechikuva chekuronga nekuunza vanhu pamwe chete, pfungwa dzerudzi irworwo dzinoita zvine musoro, sezvinoita rudzi rwandataura, nezvimwe zvakawanda, asi basa rinofanira kuitwa.
ML: Dennis Kucinich akavimbisa kuunza izvi muCongress. Haisi chimwe chinhu chatiri kutarisira kuti chipfuure muCongress yazvino, asi chimwe chinhu icho - kana tikakwanisa kuita kuti vatsigirwe nemakanzuru emuguta nematare eparamende - chinogona kusimudza mhando dzenyaya dzisiri munharaunda yeruzhinji. zvachose.
NC: Iro zano rinonzwisisika, kunyanya kuyedza kurishandisa padanho renzvimbo. Pane zvinhu zvaunogona kuita nemakanzuru emunharaunda, nharaunda, uye pamwe rimwe zuva maparamende enyika izvo zvisinganyatsogoneke padanho reCongress, uye iyo inzira yekuvaka masangano akakurumbira.
Mhanyai Mumiriri Anoenderera mberi achipokana naObama muna 2012?
ML: Ikozvino mukuyedza kutsvaga nzira yekuunza pamwe chete mamwe emauto akadaira kune zvavaitenda kuve kukwikwidza kunofambira mberi mumushandirapamwe waObama we2008, ndinoshamisika kuti unofungei nezvepfungwa yekuyedza kugadzira anoenderera mberi anopikisa Obama. muma 2012 Democratic primaries, uye kushandisa simba iroro kuvaka chiso cheveruzhinji kune vanopikisa vanofambira mberi vanokwanisa kupatsanura maDemocrats vogadzira bato rechitatu rine huzhinji hwakakura kupfuura veGreens.
NC: Iwe unoziva, ndiwo mubvunzo wakaoma wehunyanzvi. Kufungidzira kwangu ndekwekuti kuedza kunoitwa padanho renyika kune musoro kana kwakabatana nechirongwa chekuronga kwenzvimbo. Ndinofunga isu tiri kure kwazvo nekukwanisa kuita shanduko huru padanho renyika.
Unogona kuona zvipimo zvemushandirapamwe wenyika musarudzo dza2008. Simba rakawandisa uye kufara kwakagadzirwa, asi zvaive pachena kubva pakutanga kuti yaizoenda kune kuodzwa mwoyo kwakanyanya nekuti pakanga pasina chinhu chaicho ipapo - yaive yakavakirwa pakunyepedzera. Uye kana vanhu vakazvipira uye vachishanda nesimba kuti vaedze kuunza chimwe chinhu chisina kujeka, pachava nemhedzisiro yakaipa, iyo yakaitika, saka pave nekuodzwa mwoyo kukuru, kusakendenga, kudhonza, zvichingodaro.
Rongai Munharaunda, Dzivirirai Mibatanidzwa yePublic Sector
Ndinofunga kuti tinofanira kungwarira kumisa zvinangwa zvechokwadi - hazvifanirwe kubudirira, asi kana zvikakundikana, kukundikana pachayo kunogona kushandiswa sechikonzero chekuenderera mberi, uye handizvo kana iwe ukapinda mune zvematongerwo enyika sarudzo. . Saka mhando yezano raunoita, ndinofunga rinogona kuvandudzwa nenzira inovaka. Asi kujekesa kuti chinangwa chaicho ndechekuvandudza rudzi rwesangano rinogona kuchinja zvinhu pasi; inogona kupedzisira yave nemhedzisiro yenyika, asi chete kana yakagadziridzwa kupfuura zvayave iko zvino.
Haisi chakavanzika chikuru kuti makirasi ebhizinesi muUnited States, ayo anogara achirwa hondo yekirasi inorwadza uye anonyatsoziva kirasi, akazvipira kuparadza mibatanidzwa kubvira kuma1930s. Uye vakabudirira zvakanyanya munzvimbo yakavanzika, asi zvisati zvave kubudirira munharaunda yeruzhinji, uye ndizvo zviri kunangwa izvozvi: kuedza kukuru, kuedza kuparadzira - vezvenhau vari kutora chikamu, mapato ese ari kubatanidzwa - kuyedza nekuderedza. masangano ehurumende. Uye ndiyo imwe yemapoinzi pakurwiswa uku kwevashandi veveruzhinji, vachivashandura kuva matsotsi aive akonzeresa dambudziko remari. Kwete Goldman Sachs, asi vadzidzisi nemapurisa uye zvichingodaro.
Isu takangoona izvo zvichiitika muWashington mwedzi mishoma yapfuura. Pakanga paine nyaya hombe - kubudirira kukuru kwechirema-dhadha Congress yaifanirwa kunge iri chibvumirano chebipartisan pamitero. Zvakanaka, nyaya yakakosha yaive yekuti yekuwedzera mutero waBush kune vakapfuma kwazvo. Huwandu hwaipokana neizvozvo, pamwe vaviri kune mumwe, asi maDemocrats naObama, pachinzvimbo chekushandisa chokwadi ichocho kuyedza kubvisa iyo hombe yemutero yevapfumi, vakaenda nayo.
Panguva imwecheteyo, mapato ese ari maviri aiedza kukurira mumwe uye kupopota nezve njodzi yekushomeka kwemubatanidzwa, nepo chokwadi chenyaya chiri chekuti isu tinofanirwa kunge tiine kushomeka munguva yekuderera. Iyo inoshamisa propaganda kubudirira, kune maRepublicans kunyanya, kutsigira kuderedzwa kwemutero kune vakapfuma zvakanyanya izvo zvisingafarirwe uye izvo zvichawedzera zvakanyanya kushomeka, uye panguva imwecheteyo vanozviratidza semaperero ari kuyedza kudzivirira. zvizvarwa zvinotevera. Asi icho chingori chikamu chazvo, nekuti panguva imwe cheteyo, Obama akazivisa kuwedzera kwemutero kune vashandi vemubatanidzwa - yainzi kumisa mubhadharo, asi mubhadharo wevashandi mubazi rehurumende wakafanana nekuwedzera mutero kune vashandi ivavo. . Saka pano, kudanidzira kwakawanda pamusoro pekuti tiri kutema sei mitero uye kukunda kukanganisa, uye panguva imwechete tiri kukwidza mitero kune vashandi vehurumende.
Ichi chikamu chemushandirapamwe mukuru wekunyepedzera wekuyedza kukanganisa veruzhinji: vanoita madhimoni vadzidzisi, mapurisa, uye vanodzima moto nemhando dzese dzenhema dzekuti vanobhadharwa sei, asi ivo vari kubhadharwa mari shoma zvichienderana nehunyanzvi hwehunyanzvi mubazi rakazvimirira. - vachishora penjeni dzavo nezvimwe zvakadaro. Aya ndiwo maitiro makuru ekuparadzira, rudzi rwehondo yekirasi, uye iyo inofanirwa kurwiswa, uye ndinofunga kuti maonero eruzhinji anogona kurongeka kurwisa. Izvo zvinhu chaizvo chaizvo zviri kuitika izvozvi, semukana wekupedza kuvharwa kwemafekitori uye kutambura kwakawanda kwazvinotungamira, uye kushandura icho kuita chimwe chinhu chakanyanya: kunyanya kugadzirwa kwevashandi vega kune zvinodiwa nevanhu.
ML: Zvino, ngatifungei kuti zvinhu zvauri kutaura, izvo zvino zviri kunzwiwa nechikamu chidiki chevanhu, zvinogona kunzwikwa nemunhu ari kuzvitaura musarudzo yemutungamiri wenyika vachipokana naObama - hazvingadaro, mukati uye pachayo, ingave yakakosha? Kunyanya dai munhu iyeye achizoti panguva imwe chete, "uye hatingatarisiri kuwana shanduko yatinoda kuburikidza neDemocratic Party, saka tinofanira kushandisa mushandirapamwe uyu kuunza pamwechete vanhu vanoda kuenderera mberi nehondo iyi. chikamu chesangano rinoshanda mukati nekunze kweDemocratic Party. "
NC: Ndinofunga kuti izvozvo zvinofanira kuitwa. Ini handizive kuti munhu anofanirwa kutora danho rakasimba rekuti anofanirwa kunge ari wechitatu bato kana kushandura Democratic Party - zvese zviri zviviri sarudzo. Mushure mezvose, iyo New Deal yakabudirira kushandura Democratic Party kuburikidza nemaitiro ekuratidzira akakurumbira.
ML: Saka hausi mumwe weavo vari kuruboshwe vanoti ingori muchetura kuti urambe uchishanda mukati meDemocratic Party?
NC: Ini handisi kubuda ndichifarira kushanda mukati meDemocratic Party kana kupikisa kushanda mukati meDemocratic Party, ndiri kungotaura kuti handioni paine chikonzero chekutora chimiro chakasimba pamubvunzo iwoyo. Kana zvichigona kuitwa [mukati mepati], zvakanaka; kana zvisingakwanisi kuitwa, zviite kunze. Muchokwadi, zvakangofanana neyakajairwa nzira yekufambira mberi kune zvinangwa zvekuchinja - chinangwa ndechekutsikirira masangano kumiganhu yavo. Kana muchokwadi vasingakwanise kumanikidzwa zvakare, uye vanhu vanonzwisisa izvo, saka une hwaro hwekuenda kune chimwe chinhu chinosvika kure.
Iwe Mhanya. Kwete, Unomhanya.
ML: Saka usingazivi mumwe munhu ane nzwisiso iri nani yemasimba aya kupfuura iwe, ungave uchida kuve mumiriri wechigaro chemutungamiri wenyika?
NC: Ini handisi munhu akakodzera kuve mumiriri. Saka pachangu, aiwa, haisiriyo rudzi rwechinhu chandinogona kuita.
ML: Sezvo iwe uine ongororo uye uchikwanisa kuitsanangura zvakajeka, sei usingazove mumiriri akanaka?
NC: Muhurongwa hwedu, munhu anofanirwa kunge ari mutauri, kana munhu ane charisma, munhu anoedza kumutsa manzwiro. Ini handiite izvozvo, uye, dai ndaigona kuzviita, handingaite. Ini handisi munhu chaiye.
ML: Izvi zvinogona kunge zviri chikonzero nei iwe uri munhu akakodzera. Rudzi rwemunhu rwakanaka ndiye munhu anga asingade kuzviita.
NC: Zvakanaka, unozviita. Kunyora kwako kwakanaka kwazvo.
ML: Zvakanaka, waita Noam.
[Ndakatotaura pachena kuti ndichamhanya apo rimwe boka revanhu vakapfuma rinopa bhiriyoni remadhora kumushandirapamwe uyu kuitira kuti tikwanise kuhaya varongi vanozoshanda mukuvaka sangano rinokura kubva pamushandirapamwe uye rinotarisa kune zvakatipoteredza. , rugare, kururamisira kwevanhu, democracy yehupfumi, kodzero dzevanhu, uye New Bottom Line yakarongwa ne Network of Spiritual Progressives. Kusvika ipapo, ndicharamba ndichigadzirisa Tikkun; shanda pakuvaka Network of Spiritual Progressives’ mishandirapamwe yeESRA uye yeGlobal Marshall Plan; nyora mabhuku ezvidzidzo zvouMwari, zvepfungwa, uye shanduko yemagariro; uye kupedza nguva mumunamato nekufungisisa nekupemberera ukuru uye chakavanzika chepasirese. Uye nguva Tikkun uye NSP haipindire mune zvematongerwo enyika dzesarudzo (havasi purofiti yakarambidzwa kuita kudaro), ini pachangu ndanga ndichienda kune vanozivikanwa zviri nani vakaita saBill Moyers, Marian Wright Edelman, Senator Bernie Sanders, Rachel Maddow, uye aimbove Congressman Joe. Sestak netarisiro yekuti ivo nevamwe vangangobatana mukuedza kuvaka rudzi irworwo rwemushandirapamwe wesarudzo muna 2012.]
ML: Iwe unayo here rimwe zano rezano kune isu tiri kutsvaga shanduko yehurongwa hwedu?
Iko Kukurumidzira Kutyisidzira Kwekuchinja Kwemamiriro ekunze uye Hondo Yenyukireya
NC: Handifunge kuti pane zvakadzika, zvakavanzika zvakavanzika pamusoro peizvi. Pane zvinangwa zvakawanda zvatinofanira kunge tichishanda nesimba kuti tibudirire; mamwe acho ndeaya awakagadzira muESRA, mamwe ndiwo marudzi andataura.
Kozotiwo zvimwe zvinonyanya kukosha. Somuenzaniso, dambudziko remhoteredzo riri kuuya pasi pose, rinomutsa mibvunzo nezvokurarama kwemarudzi. Zviri urgent izvozvi. Kunyangwe vamwe vari mubhizinesi vanodzvanya pa Business Week vari kutya nenyaya yekuti maRepublicans matsva akasarudzwa vanenge varamba shanduko yemamiriro ekunze. Kutaura idi vakanokora mashoko mumwe nguva pfupi yapfuura angave ari kuwana sachigaro wedare rinokosha, uyo ari kure-kumadziro akati, “Hatifaniri kunetseka pamusoro pokudziya kwepasi nemhaka yokuti Mwari haasati aizobvumira kuti zviitike.” Handifungi kuti kune imwe nyika pasi pano iyo munhu wezvematongerwo enyika anogona kuita izvi. Zvakadaro pano kwave nekunyanya nhema dzemakambani zvinogumbura, zvakaziviswa pachena, kuyedza kunyengerera vanhu kuti dambudziko rezvakatipoteredza ihoax yakasununguka. Uye yakave nebudiriro, maererano nesarudzo dzichangoburwa. Iyo yezana yevaAmerican vanotenda mukudziya kwepasirese anthropogenic, mhedzisiro yevanhu pakushanduka kwemamiriro ekunze, yakadzika kusvika pachikamu chetatu. Iyi inzvimbo ine njodzi zvakanyanya: yava pedyo; tinofanira kuita chimwe chinhu pamusoro pazvo izvozvi.
Pane dzimwe nyaya dzinofanirwa kutariswa nekukurumidza. Kutyisidzirwa kwehondo yenyukireya kwakakomba zvikuru, uye kutaura idi kuri kuwedzerwa nomutemo wehurumende. Parizvino chimwe chezvakazarurwa zvinofadza kubva kuWikiLeaks tambo zvine chekuita nePakistan: zviri pachena kubva kumatambo kuti mumiriri weUS anonyatsoziva kuti zviito zviri kutorwa nehurumende yaObama maererano neAfghanistan nePakistan zviri kuwedzera zvakanyanya. kutyisidzira kugadzikana kwePakistan pachayo, uye vari kusimudza mukana, kwete zvishoma, kuti nyika iparare, uye kuti dura rayo guru rezvombo zvenyukireya rinogona kuguma rave mumaoko evaIslam vane masimba masimba. Ndinoziva kuti hapana mukana wepamusoro, asi zvinogoneka, uye zvatiri kuita kukurumidza kutyisidzira. Zvakare, kutsigira India hombe yezvombo zvenyukireya kuvaka uye kuvharira kuedza kunotsigirwa neinoda nyika yese kuenda kunzvimbo isina zvombo zvenyukireya munzvimbo inotyisa kwazvo yeMiddle East - idzi inyaya dzakakosha zvikuru.
Saka kune akawanda emabasa ekukurumidzira, anongoda chinhu chimwe chete nguva dzose: kuedza kudzidzisa, kuronga, kuunza pamwechete masimba ane hanya uye kugadzira zano nemaitiro uye nekuashandisa. Saka kutsigira, toti, kodzero dzengochani mumauto kwakakosha, asi zvinofanirwa kuve zvakabatana nedzimwe nhamburiko kana zvichizove nemhedzisiro yakakura munharaunda.
Chii Chatinoita Nezve Religiophobia?
ML: Semubvunzo wepadivi, isu muNSP uye Tikkun takaona kuti zvinzvimbo zvedu uye kuongorora - izvo zvine dzimwe nzira zvakanyanya (kuenda kumudzi) kupfuura mazhinji ezvirongwa zvaunonzwa zvichibuda Kuruboshwe, nekuti isu tine ongororo yekirasi uye isu tine ongororo yepasi rose. capitalism - zvakadaro haina kutariswa zvakanyanya nevamwe vese Kuruboshwe nekuda kwezvatakasangana nazvo sekupararira kwechitendero. Uye izvo zvakare zvakaonekwa nevanhu vakaita saJim Wallis nevaya vane chekuita navo Vatorwa, uye vanhu vakakomberedza Christian Century, nemamwe masangano ezvitendero anofambira mberi. Uye ndiri kushamisika kana iwe uine chero zano kwatiri rekuti tingakunda sei religiophobia, sezvo zvichiita sechisina maturo kwatiri kuti nyika yakasiiwa hainzwisise izvozvo, munyika umo mune 80 muzana yevagari vanotenda muna Mwari uye makumi matanhatu. muzana vanoenda kuchechi kanenge kamwe chete pamwedzi, zvingava mufariro yavo kuva nokubatanidzwa navanhu vane ndangariro yomudzimu kana kuti yorudzidziso.
NC: Ini ndinofunga iwe unofanirwa kutaura navo, kwete chete nezvikonzero zvepragmatic izvo zviri mukufarira kwavo, asi zvakare nechikonzero chekuti ndicho chinhu chaicho kuita. Ndinoreva, pachangu, ndiri wepanyika zvachose, asi ndinonyatsoziva kodzero yevanhu yekuve nezvitendero zvavo zvechitendero uye kukosha kwazvingave nazvo muhupenyu hwavo, asi kwete kwandiri. Kunyangwe isu tichigona kunyatsonzwisisa mumwe nemumwe zvakanaka zvakadaro, kure nekurangarira kwepragmatic. Ndinoreva kuti, kana amai vari kunamatira kuti vaone mwana wavo ari kufa kudenga, haisi kodzero yangu kuvapa zvidzidzo zveepistemology.
ML: Asi hadzisi nyaya dze epistemology chete, nekuti ipapo tinogona kuita gakava rakanaka; ndezvekuti kune mamiriro ekunze kana tsika muKuruboshwe uye nhandare dzakasununguka dzinongofunga kuti chero munhu angave ane chinzvimbo chechitendero anofanira kunge asina kusimba muhungwaru kana kuti akabatikana mupfungwa, anoda chimiro chababa kana kutya zvisingazivikanwe, kana zvimwe zvinoderedza pfungwa. kuongorora. Maitiro iwayo - rudzi rwekuseka chero ani zvake angangofunga kuti paive nechimiro chemweya chechokwadi, kana chazara, chinosundira vanhu kure kunyangwe vakabvumirana nezvakawanda zvezviri kutaurwa neKuruboshwe. Munhu anosimudza sei nyaya iyoyo? Mumwe anobata sei nenyaya iyo pakati pevakasara vasingazive nezvehukuru uye kugumbura kweizvi zvirevo? Pane imwe nguva yazvainyanya kuoma kusimudza nyaya yerudzi, rusaruraganda, kana kuvenga ngochani, nekuti vanhu vaifunga kuti, "zvakanaka izvo zvinosemesa, hachisi chokwadi, hazvisi kuitika" - pakanga paine danho rakakura rekuramba. Iwe une chero zano kwatiri here rekuita neiyo level yekuramba iripo mutsika yeKuruboshwe? Muchidzidzo changu cheizvi - ndakaita ongororo yakadzama ye psychodynamics yeAmerican nzanga, iyo yaisanganisira vanhu vanopfuura zviuru gumi - takaona kuti iyi yaive nyaya yepakati pevazhinji vanoshanda mari yepakati, vakabvumirana nezvakawanda. yenzvimbo dzeKuruboshwe, asi akanzwa achipokana neKuruboshwe.
NC: Zvakanaka, nzira yaunosvika nayo vanhu ndeyekuvatsanangurira kuti hazvisi mukufarira kwavo kushora vamwe vanhu, asi zvakare zvakaipa mutsika nemupfungwa. Semuenzaniso, imwe yenjodzi huru chitendero chenyika - kunamata kwenyika. Icho chinhu chinoparadza zvakanyanya muzvinhu zvenyika kupfuura kutenda kwechitendero, uye zvinowanzoitika kune Kuruboshwe. Saka iwe unotarisa kune vanhu chaivo vari kutsigira neshungu kurwira kusatenda Mwari uye kudzokorora nharo dzainzwisiswa nevazhinji vedu pataive pwere - vanhu vamwechete ivavo vanobatanidzwa mukunamata kwehurumende kunoparadza nekuuraya, kwete vese asi vamwe. Zvinoreva here kuti tinofanira kuvadzinga? Aiwa, zvinoreva kuti tinofanira kuedza kuvatsanangurira.
Israel: Maonero eruzhinji eUS ari Kuchinja
ML: Rega ndikubvunze zvishoma nezveIsraeri. Maonero edu ndeekuti Israeri yakananga kukutonga nekusingaperi kwevanhu vePalestine - chinzvimbo chawakataura munguva pfupi yapfuura, chekuti hapana nyika mbiri kana imwe nyika inogona kuitika, asi pachinzvimbo ichienderera mberi nehutongi. Saka, ndiri kukubvunza kuti ndeapi mazano aunokurudzira kune avo vasingagutsikane nemasangano anotsigira runyararo, asi zviite nenzira inogadzirisa nyaya chete maererano nezvido zveIsrael. Tikkun yaizove nemhedzisiro yakakura kwazvo munyika yechiJudha kana, semuenzaniso, isu takanga takagadzirira kushoropodza maPalestine zvakanyanya, kunyanya panguva yechipiri intifada, uye dai taizoronga nyaya dzedu chete maererano nekuti nei zvisina musoro uye kuzviparadza. nokuda kwaIsraeri. Asi sezvo takazvipira kune mamwe maonero - sezvo tichibva mumaonero echitendero ekuti munhu wese akasikwa nemufananidzo waMwari uye akakodzera zvakaenzana kutarisirwa nerutsigiro - tinozviona zvisinganzwisisike kunyarara pamusoro pekurwadziwa uye kuparadza kwevanhu. kuti Basa reWest Bank uye shanduko yeGaza kuita musasa mukuru wejeri wakagadzira. Zvakadaro vanhu verunyararo vakavakirwa muWashington uye vazhinji (kwete vese) pakati peKuruboshwe munyika yechiJudha vanofunga kuti zano rakangwara nderokudzikisira nyaya iyoyo uye kutamba chete kufarira kweIsrael. Iwe une chero zano kwatiri rekuti tingarwira sei kupera kweOccupation uye kupera kwekudzvinyirirwa kwePalestine, kana we - Tikkun neNSP - havakwanisi kuronga nyaya idzi chete maererano nekuzvida kuIsrael asi vanosungirwa kuti vataure nyaya idzodzo maererano nekutambura kwevaPalestine uye maitiro ehutsika, kunyangwe kuita izvi kunoratidzika kunge kunopesana nekuvaka rutsigiro. munyika yechiJudha?
NC: Zvakanaka, kutanga kwezvose ini handina chokwadi zvachose kuti zvinopesana nekuvaka rubatsiro - zvichida pakati pemasangano echiJudha aripo, asi iwe hausi kuzokanganisa masangano eZionist. Asi kunyanya pakati pevaJudha vechidiki, chako inzvimbo iri kuwedzera kukwezva. Ini handisi kuuya kubva mumaonero echitendero asi kubva kune yekunyika uye ndichiita chinhu chimwe chete, uye shanduko dzandakasangana nadzo mumakore mashoma apfuura dzakakura. Kuongorora kwakakosha kwemitemo yeIsrael ndiyo imwe yenyaya dzakakurumbira pane kambasi izvozvi.
Zvisinei, maonero angu ndeokuti zvechokwadi nyaya kwatiri haisi izvo zviri kuitwa neIsrael asi zviri kuitwa neUnited States - zviri mumaoko edu kuona kuti izvi zvinozofamba sei. Kana United States ikaramba ichikweretesa kutsigirwa kusingatsoropodzi kumitemo yeIsrael yekuwedzera kutonga kwavo uye kutonga, sezvazviri kuitika, ndizvo zvinozoitika. Asi izvozvo zvinogona kuchinja. Uye inogona kuchinja nekuunza vanhu vekuAmerica - vechiJudha nevasiri vaJudha - kuti vaone kuti mitemo yehurumende yeUS iyi haigamuchirwe uye inofanira kuchinjwa. Kana iyo US yakanyengetedzwa kana kumanikidzwa nemafungiro akakurumbira kuti abatanidze nyika panyaya iyi, uye ndinonyatsoreva izvozvo, ipapo panogona kuve nekugadzirisa kwenguva pfupi - kwete kupera kwenyaya, asi kuvandudzwa kwakakosha - nekugona. kuenda kune imwe-nyika-yekugadzirisa nhanho uye inoenderera mberi kwenguva refu. Ndinofunga kuti ichokwadi.
ML: Uye unofungidzira kuti kuchinja ikoko kuchiitika sei? Tichifunga nezve kuungana kwemauto izvozvi umo iyi inoita kunge ndiyo chete nyaya umo maDemocrats nemaRepublicans akabatana zvachose, achigadzira mavhoti e415 kusvika makumi maviri mukutsigira zvinopenga sarudzo…
NC: Uri kutaura nezveCongress, asi ndinofunga tinofanira kutarisa huwandu hwevanhu, izvo zvisina kubatana pane izvi. Kutaura zvazviri, ruzhinji rwevanhu runofarira kuumbwa kwenyika yePalestine, uye chinangwa chedu chinofanira kunge chiri chekuronga huwandu hwevanhu kuitira kuti chido chakakurumbira chiratidzwe muzviito zvehurumende. Izvi zvakaitika kare: zvakaitika kuSouth Africa. Ndinoreva, hutongi hweReagan hwaitsigira zvakasimba rusaruraganda, vachishora ANC sesangano guru remagandanga, uye mukati memakore mashoma rakachinja. Chinhu chimwe chete chakaitika neEast Timor - sezvo hutsinye hukuru hwakaenderera mberi muna 1999, hutongi hwaClinton hwakaramba huchitsigira hutsinye hweIndonesia zvakasimba, uyezve, zvakangoerekana zvaitika, pasi pekumanikidzwa kwepasirese uye kwepamba kwakachinja chinzvimbo.
ML: Hongu, asi hapana kana imwe yenyika idzi yaive nechikamu chakakosha chevagari vepano muU. Ipo pano, ini ndichibvuma kuti kune kupatsanurwa kuri kukura munharaunda yevaJudha panyaya idzi uye Tikkun inoratidza maonero echikamu chikuru kwazvo chevaJudha vari pasi pemakore makumi mashanu, handioni kupatsanurwa kwakafanana pakati pevaKristu veZionist, avo vanomiririra chikamu chikuru chevanhu - zvikuru kupfuura vanhu vechiJudha, zvakadaro.
NC: The Christian Right yakatsigirawo rusaruraganda. Kune marudzi ese emisiyano, kune rumwe rutivi, munyaya yeIsrael-Palestine. Parizvino pane chikamu chiri kukura mukati memauto uye mukati mehungwaru chiri kukwevera kupera kwerutsigiro rweUS kuIsrael intransigence nekuti iri kukuvadza mashandiro eUS mumunda. Kana izvo zvikapararira kune huwandu hwevanhu, zvinogona kutungamirira kune guru guru rekurwisana neSemitism. Pane misiyano mizhinji pakati pezviitiko, asi pfungwa ndeyekuti mitemo inogona kuchinja, uye pfungwa yangu ndeyokuti kunyange mukati mevanhu vechiJudha, vaJudha vadiki vari kukukurwa nekuti izvo zviri kuitwa neIsrael hazvigoneke kune maitiro avo akasununguka; Ini ndinofunga isu tinofanirwa kugashira kufamba uku uye kuyedza kuitungamira kune kuchinja mutemo weUS.
ML: Hongu, kutarisa kwekuchinja mutemo weUS ndechimwe chezvikonzero zvakawanda izvo NSP yedu inotarisa paGlobal Marshall Plan yakakosha. Chinhu chepakati cheGlobal Marshall Plan yedu ndechekuti "kuchengetedzwa kwenyika" hakugone kuwanikwa kuburikidza ne "hurongwa hwekutonga" hwazvino hwenyika dzepasirese, asi kuburikidza ne "hurongwa hutsva hwerupo" umo US inoita nenzira ine hanya. kuvanhu venyika. Irworwo rudzi rwekuitira hanya uye rupo haruzobatike muIsrael, kwazvaizochinja zvese, kuita kuti runyararo ruve mukana chaiwo, kwete chinangwa chisingaperi, kudzamara chabata kuMadokero, kunyanya muUS. zvezvikonzero zvakawanda nei ndichibvumirana newe kuti basa redu riri mukushandura nzira yezvekune dzimwe nyika muUS, uye izvo zvichaitika chete kuburikidza nechirongwa chikuru chedzidzo padanho repasi. Nekutsvaga makanzuru emaguta uye maparamende enyika kuti atsigire Global Marshall Plan, isu paNetwork of Spiritual Progressives tichakwanisa kusimudza iyi nzira itsva yekufunga nezvekuchengetedzwa kwenyika uye pakupedzisira kuita shanduko huru mukuziva kwevanhu vakawanda muAmerica pamubvunzo wekuti chii chinonyatsoshanda kuunza kuchengeteka, kuchengeteka, uye rugare kune vanhu. U.S. uye kunyika.
Rabi Michael Lerner, munyori we Ruoko rworuboshwe rwaMwari: Kutora Nyika Yedu Kudzoka kubva Kurudyi Kwechitendero mupepeti weTikkun Magazine, sachigaro wekubatana kwezvitendero Network of Spiritual Progressives, uye munyori webhuku riri kuuya. Embacing Israel/Palestine, iyo ichabuda muna December.
ZNetwork inopihwa mari chete kuburikidza nerupo rwevaverengi vayo.
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