Hafu yekutanga yekubvunzurudzwa kwangu nemurwiri wezvematongerwo enyika ane mukurumbira pasi rose, nyanzvi yemitauro, nyanzvi yekuziva, munyori wehuzivi, MIT Muzvinafundo emeritus Noam Chomsky.
Thanks kune Don Caldarazzo kuti ubatsirwe kugadzirisa zvinyorwa.
Uye heino chinongedzo kune odhiyo podcast: Exclusive: Rob Kall Hurukuro Noam Chomsky: America in Decline, US Operating Procedures for Blocking Democracy
Rob: "Station ID (WNJC 1360 AM, the Rob Kall Bottom Up Radio Show)" Muenzi wangu manheru ano ndemumwe wandinofara zvikuru kuva naye zvakare - murwiri ane mukurumbira pasi rose wezvematongerwo enyika, nyanzvi yemitauro, nyanzvi yeruzivo rwepfungwa, muzivi, munyori; ndiye MIT Muzvinafundo Emeritus Noam Chomsky. Kugamuchirwa kune show!
Noam: Zvakanaka kuva newe.
Rob: Zvino, takasangana kutanga kwemwedzi uno muPrinceton. Wanga uchitaura naAmy Goodman pachiitiko cheCoalition for Peace, uye ini ndaida kutanga ndichikubvunza nezve chinhu chimwe chete chawakataura nezvazvo. Iwe wakaenzanisa chinangwa maringe nechokwadi. Ungapinda mune izvozvo zvishoma here?
Noam: Zvakanaka, ini ndanga ndichishandisa izwi rekuti "chinangwa" nekubata kwekunyomba. Pane pfungwa yekuona zvinhu inodzidziswa muzvikoro zvevatori venhau uye inonyorerwa nevapepeti nevatori venhau, uye vanodaro. Objectivity inoreva "kutaura nemazvo zviri kuitika mukati mebhandi, mukati memagetsi emagetsi." Kana iwe ukataura izvo nemazvo, saka une chinangwa. Kana iwe ukaikurukura, kana kunyatsoiongorora, iyo inoenderana. Kana iwe ukataura pamusoro pezvinhu zvisina kukurukurwa mukati mebhanhire, izvo zvakarerekera uye zvine musoro. Muchokwadi, yakauya munguva pfupi yapfuura. Paive nechinhu chidiki - unoziva here boka rainzi Kurongeka uye Kurongeka muMedia, FAIR? Vane bhuku rinonzi Extra, rinova bhuku rekutsoropodza vezvenhau. Yaive nechidimbu chinonakidza ipapo, kwavakatora mupepeti we (ndinofungidzira) rimwe remapepanhau makuru - angave Washington Post kana New York Times - aishoropodza munyori kana mutori wenhau, nekuti munyori akange ataura izvi. Hurukuro yakakurumbira yaPaul Ryan's, iyo yakanga izere nehunyanzvi hwakanyanya. Uye iye akataura nezve nhema uye akagadzirisa, uye pfungwa yake yaive yekuti kwete handizvo zvaunofanirwa kuita. Iwe unongofanirwa kuzvizivisa "nechinangwa." Uye ipapo, vakanokorawo mumwe wevatapi venhau vakuru veNew York Times, Ethan Brenner, uyo akabvuma ndokuti, โHongu, ndiro basa redu: kuva โchinangwa.โโ Saka: usanyatsoongorora zvinotaurwa; izvo ndezvevanyori vemapepanhau, uye usataure zvinhu zvisina kukurukurwa. Uye pane zvakawanda zvisina kukurukurwa, nekuti zviri kunze kwechimiro chinogamuchirwa chedzidziso huru. Saka ndiyo nzira ye "objectivity." Iyo nzira ye - handingati censorship - asi yekuumba nyika, kuti itaridzike nenzira yainofanirwa kuita kubva pamaonero evane simba. Chokwadi ndicho chiri kuitika kunze uko, uye chinangwa uye chokwadi chinogona kunge chakasiyana.
Rob: Uye izvo zvinonyatso kutiunza kune iyi dambudziko rose remamiriro enhau nhasi. Chii chaunotora pane vezvenhau iko zvino, uye pazvingave?
Noam: Zvakanaka, pane zvakawanda zvekushoropodza nezve media, asi maonero angu ndeekuti vangangove vari nani pane zvavaive makore makumi mana kana makumi mashanu apfuura mune izvi. Vezvenhau, senyika yese, vakapesvedzerwa nekuratidzira kwema1960, uko kwaive nebasa rakakura mukungovandudza nyika pazvinhu zvakawanda. Izvo zvave ne - chekutanga pane vanhu vazhinji vari munhau izvozvi, vanodaro vatori venhau nevamwe, vakararama kuburikidza nezviitiko izvi - asi zvakangochinjawo maitiro ehurukuro yezvinhu. Ikozvino, kwave nekudzikira kukuru uye kuita kupokana nazvo, asi zvakadaro zvakachinja zvakakosha uye zvechigarire, uye zvinoreva kuti zvinhu zvave kukurukurwa zvino izvo zvaive zvemhando yemakore apfuura. Saka, mune zvimwe zvinhu, ndinofunga vezvenhau vakanyatsovandudza, asi nyaya huru dzichiri. Chimwe chazvo ndechezvatakanga tichingokurukura: pane hutsika hwakasimba, kutaura zvazviri hunokatyamadza (kunyangwe pfungwa) pamusoro pekuchengeta kumhando dzezvinhu zvinokurukurwa nekukakavadzana mukati mehurongwa hwesimba, uye kusarura zvinhu zviri kunze. Izvi zvakanyanya kukosha, mune zvematongerwo enyika uye epasirese. Saka torai zvinhu zvemumba; kana iwe wakaverenga pepanhau remangwanani ano, iyo inotungamirira nyaya muNew York Times pamusoro pekuti zvichange zvakaoma sei kutema zvikodzero, izvo zvinofanira kuitwa kuderedza kukanganisa, nokuti vanhu vari kungozvipikisa. Zvakanaka, iwe unoziva, pane zvinhu zvinoda kutaurwa nezvazvo, izvo zvisina kukurukurwa mukati mebhandi. Chekutanga, kwenguva yakareba uye nekumahombekombe akakura, ruzhinji rwevanhu - rwakanyanya kuyambuka, nzira yese kusvika kune vanhu veTe Party - vanofunga kuti dambudziko guru ratinosangana naro nderekushomeka kwemabasa, uye kuti. izvo zvakanyanya kukosha kupfuura kushomeka. Uye, chaizvoizvo, ndinofunga kuti vakarurama. Ndinoreva, kunyangwe iyo Bhizinesi Press inobvumirana nazvo, vazhinji vezvehupfumi vanoita.
Asi mabhangi uye masangano emari, vanoisa mari, vanofarira kushomeka. Saka, saka, ndiko kutarisisa kwekutarisa. Inenge nhaurirano dzese mukati mebhandi, sedimikira, nezve kushomeka - "tinofanira kuita chimwe chinhu nezve kushomeka." Kunyangwe, kutaura zvazviri, ndinofunga huwandu hwevanhu hwakarurama: idambudziko diki. Uyezve, kana iwe uchinetsekana nekushomeka, unogona zvakare kutendeukira kune veruzhinji maonero uye kubvunza zvinofungwa nevanhu nezvazvo. Vane maonero. Semuenzaniso, vakanyatsodzidza, vazhinji vanofunga kuti tinofanira kuderedza mari yekushandisa muchiuto. Tinofanira kukwidza zvakanyanya mitero kune vapfumi, avo vari pasi-mutero zvakanyanya. Hatifanire kubata izvo zvinonzi zvinokodzera (Medicare uye Social Security) muchokwadi, asi kuvasimbisa. Uye idzi inzira dzekutarisana nekushomeka. Ndizvo zvinenge zvakapesana nezviri kukurukurwa uye zviri kutaurwa. Uye, kutaura zvazviri, pane imwezve pfungwa iyo vanhu vasingakurukure, pamwe nekuti havazive chokwadi, asi kushomeka, sezvazviri, kunogona kukundwa kana tikaenda kune inonzwisisika hutano hwehutano.
Iyo US healthcare system inyaya yepasirese. Inenge yakapetwa kaviri mutengo wega wega wenyika dzakafanana, uye kune mhedzisiro yakaipa. Uye chikonzero chinoteedzera zvakanyanya kune chokwadi, kwete zvachose, asi zvakanyanya kune chokwadi chekuti yakazvimiririra uye yakanyanya kusarongeka. Uye izvo zvinotungamira kune hombe yekutonga mari kune dzimwe dzisiri dzehutano mari, senge purofiti yekushambadzira, zvichingodaro; zvinotungamira mukunhonga cherry, marudzi ese ezvinhu. Saka ihurongwa husina kunyatso shanda, uye [hwakaratidza] - nehumbowo hwakanaka, dzimwe nyanzvi dzehupfumi dzakashanda pane izvi, kunyanya Dean Baker - kuti kana tikaenda kumhando yehutano hwehutano huri nedzimwe nyika dzemaindasitiri, inopukuta. kunze kwekushomeka. Zvino, izvo hazvina kukurukurwa, uye pachinzvimbo izvo zviri kukurukurwa inzira dzekuita kuti sisitimu iwedzere! Saka, semuenzaniso, chimwe chezvikumbiro pamusoro pekudzikisa mitengo yehutano ndeyekusimudza zera rekukodzera reMedicare mumakore akati wandei. Zvakanaka, chii chinoita izvozvo? Izvo zvinoshandura vanhu kubva kuhurongwa hunoshanda hwehurumende hunoshanda - Medicare - kune chirongwa chakazvimiririra chisingashande, chinodhura zvakanyanya, kureva, inishuwarenzi yakazvimirira. Saka ndiyo nzira yekuita kuti dambudziko riwedzere! Zvechokwadi inoita kuti itaridzike zvishoma zviri nani kubva pakuona kwemaitiro emagetsi, nokuti inoshandura mari kubva kuhurumende kune vanhu; vanhu vachiri kubhadhara zvakanyanya, ivo pachavo, asi mari yehutano yese inokwira.
Zvinhu izvi hazvingotaurwi. Iwe hauverenge nezvavo munhau, nekuti ivo havana kukurukurwa mukati mebhandi, uye vanopikiswa nenzvimbo huru dzesimba. Ndinoreva, semuenzaniso, kwenguva yakareba kwave kune rutsigiro rwakasimba rwakakurumbira - kazhinji rutsigiro rweruzhinji, rutsigiro rukuru rweruzhinji - kune rumwe rudzi rwehutano hwenyika. Asi pazvinenge zvambokurukurwa, zvakanzi "zvisingagoneki mune zvematongerwo enyika" kana chimwe chinhu chakadaro. Ndinoreva, masangano makuru emari haazvifarire. Hameno unoziva nyaya dzemumba, nyaya huru dzemumba. Panyaya dzepasi rose zvakangofanana: zvinhu zvakawanda zvakakosha zvingave zvisina kukurukurwa, kana zvinokurukurwa kuburikidza nelenzi yakamonyoroka zvekuti haugone kuwana mufananidzo chaiwo wazvo. Ichi chikamu chezvinenge hurongwa hwemasangano enhau.
Rob: Tine vezvenhau uye hurumende uye hurongwa hwezvematongerwo enyika hwave hwemubatanidzwa. Zvakawanda zve duopoly pane kuparadzanisa mapato akasiyana zvakare. Uye kune vanhu vazhinji vanoona kuti tave kuda - vanhu vakatarisana nekudonha kuri kuuya. Mubvunzurudzo yeAtlantic yawakaita naYarden Katz, yawakataura nezvayo - yaive hurukuro yeAtlantic? Kwete, zvaive naAmy Goodman - wakataura nezvekuti hungwaru hunogona kuuraya sei. Uye ndinoshamisika: unoona nzira yekubuda nayo? Unoona here ramangwana rehupfumi hwedu rinopfuura iyo corporatist system yatinayo ikozvino, mune chero rudzi rwehupfumi, ingave capitalism kana chimwewo chinhu, chine mwenje pakupera kwenzira yeMiddle Class kana yemunhu. kunyange? Iwe waunza nyaya yehungwaru hunouraya maererano neGlobal Warming, uye kuti vatungamiriri vese ava vakasiyana vari kuita kuti zvinhu zviwedzere sei pane kuve nani.
Noam: Zvakanaka, ini handiyeuke nhaurirano chaiyo, asi dai ndanga ndichitaura nezvehungwaru kuve chinhu chinouraya zvimwe zvaive muchirevo che"
Rob: Ernest Mayer! Ernst Mayer aiva
Noam: โ Ernest Mayer. Ehe, ini ndanga ndichipa rurimi-ne-dama runyoro rwenhaurirano yake. Angangove "Grand Old Man" wemazuva ano American biology, akakosha kwazvo biologist. Ndakaverenga imwe nyaya inofadza iyo yaakataura kuti, maererano nekubudirira kwehupenyu - kubudirira kwehupenyu kunoreva kuti vangani varipo kumativi ose - maererano nekubudirira kwehupenyu, akati "Zvipenyu zvinobudirira ndezvishoma kungwara." Idzo dzinoshanduka nekukasira senge mabhakitiriya, kana ayo akagadzirisa ecological niches sezvipembenene, ese anoita zvakanaka. Paunokwidza chikero chezvatinoti kungwara, kumhuka dzinoyamwisa, kumhuka huru dzinoyamwisa, kuma primates, zvichingodaro, unowana kubudirira kushoma kwebiology. Uye akagumisa kuti, achizviona sebiologist, unogona kupokana kuti kungwara hunhu hunouraya. Ipapo ndakawedzera kune izvozvo, kuti zvipenyu zvinoonekwa sepamusoro pehungwaru (kureva, isu) zvino zvave kuita mukuzviparadza uye kuparadza zvimwe zvese pamwe chete nazvo, izvo zvaizopa kubata kwekupedzisira kune dzidziso. Uye ndizvo zvatiri kuita. Ndinofunga kuti ndanga ndichireva njodzi yezvakatipoteredza. Hatifanirwe kuzviita, asi tiri kuzviita, uye hazvisi nekuti takangwara. Imhaka yekuti takagadzira zvimiro zvemasangano izvo zvinotimhanyisa munzira iyoyo. Saka, toti, masisitimu emusika: Ndinoreva kuti hatina masisitimu emusika, asi tine masisitimu emusika. Uye, musika system ine yakavakirwa-mukati doomsday muchina mukati mayo. Muchirongwa chemusika, hautarise kune izvo zvinonzi zvekunze, semuenzaniso, zvinokonzeresa kune vamwe. Saka, sekuti kana ukanditengesera mota, ngatiti: kana takateerera tichazviitira zvakanaka, iwe neni tichabuda zvakanaka. Asi isu hatiunze mukuverenga mhedzisiro yekutengeswa ikoko kune vamwe vanhu, uye pane mhedzisiro. Pane imwe motokari mumugwagwa, kune kusvibiswa kwakawanda, kune kuwanda kwehuwandu, kune mikana yakawanda yenjodzi, nezvimwe zvakadaro. Uye kukwidziridzwa pamusoro pevanhu vazhinji, izvo zvinogona kuve mhedzisiro yakakura. Zvakanaka, izvo zvinogara muchimiro chemusika masisitimu, kunze kwekunge ivo neimwe nzira vapinza zvekunze, mune izvo zvisiri izvo zvemusika masisitimu. Ndiko kungoitwa kwemunhu wega. Asi iwe unofunga nezvazvo maererano nemasangano makuru, sekuti mabhangi uye mafemu ekutsvaga mari, anoti, Goldman Sachs, pavanenge vachiita kutengeserana, vanoti, chikwereti chine ngozi kana chimwe chinhu chakadaro, vanofungisisa migumisiro pavari; purofiti ichakunda njodzi, zvichingodaro. Asi ivo havafungi nezve izvo zvinonzi systemic njodzi: ndiko kuti, mukana wekuti kana chikwereti chikaenda zvakashata uye ivo vari mumatambudziko, iyo system yese inogona kuparara. Ivo havatore izvozvo. Icho hachisi chikamu chekuverenga. Zvakanaka, ndicho chikamu chakakosha chezviri kuseri kwekuparara kwemari, kuri kuramba kuchiwedzera kubva pakatanga kudzorwa. Zvino kana iwe ukaenda nhanho yakakwira kupfuura iyo, uye iwe, taura, CEO weimwe Exxon Mobile kana chimwe chinhu, basa rako nderekuwedzera purofiti uye mugove wemusika. Iwe haufungi nezve chokwadi chekuti kune kunze: kuguma kwezvipenyu. Iwe hauverenge izvo mukati, uye ichokwadi kune asiri-emagetsi makambani zvakare. Mukuedza kuwedzera purofiti, haufungi nezve mhedzisiro yezvipenyu, uye iyo haisi joke ikozvino.
Rob: Ikozvino uri kutaura nezve economics, chaizvo. Zvino, mubvunzurudzo yako naYarden Katz muAtlantic, wakataura nezve sei, chero sainzi, iwe unofanirwa kudzidza iyo yakakosha sainzi inozoshanda nechero inouya inotevera. Wakataura nezvazvo neinjiniya inoda fizikisi, nemushonga unoda biology. Iwe unofunga kuti mamiriro ehupfumi ndeapi, nekuti haisiriyo chaiyo sainzi iyo kushambadzira kwakavakirwa pairi?
Noam: Zvakanaka, zvehupfumi hazvina kufanana nefizikisi uye biology. Economics inzvimbo inonakidza, uye vezvehupfumi vanoita zvinhu zvakawanda zvinonakidza. Asi, kusvika pamwero wakakura dzidziso yehupfumi iri kudzidza abstract masisitimu ane hukama hushoma kune zvinoitika munyika. Ndicho chimwe chikonzero nei, zvakanyanyisa, nyanzvi dzezvehupfumi dzisina kuona, kana kusafunga kuti zvakakosha, kuti tiri kupinda mubhubhu guru redzimba. Mumakore gumi apfuura kusvika yaparara, kusvika yaputika, mitengo yedzimba yakanga ichipfuura chero nheyo mune zvehupfumi. Asi, nyanzvi dzezvehupfumi dzakatorwa moyo nepfungwa dzakaita senge fungidziro yemusika inoshanda, uye zvichingodaro, zvekuti havana kufunga kuti yakakosha, kana kutombozviona. Zvakanaka izvo zvinoshamisa - uyezve chinhu chose chakapunzika, uye chokwadi hwaro hwakawanda hwedzidziso yehupfumi hwakapunzika. Asi izvi zvinoratidza chokwadi chekuti, ndima iri - uye handisi kushora ndima, kune basa rakawanda rakakosha - asi zvakadaro kune maitiro ayo ari kure nesainzi; zvakawanda. Izvo hazvishamise: masisitimu ehupfumi akanyanya kuomarara kupfuura mamorekuru makuru.
Rob: Uye iwe wataura nezvekuoma uye masisitimu. Iwe unotaura nezve sei, kana iwe uchizonyatso dzidza chero chinhu, unofanirwa kutarisa kuti masisitimu akanyanya sei modular, uye kuti zvikamu zvakasiyana zvinoshanda zvakasiyana, asi iwe zvakare unotaura, uye ini ndichakutora iwe, "Kubatana ndiko. mhando yeinonzwisisika yakanaka: chikamu che'Scientific Mystique,' kana uchida.Ndokuti uri kuyedza kutsvaga Dzidziso Yakabatana yenyika.Zvino, pamwe hapana imwe.Zvimwe zvikamu zvakasiyana zvinoshanda nenzira dzakasiyana, asi fungidziro yako ndeyekuti, kudzamara ndaratidzwa kuti handina kururama, chokwadi, ndichafunga kuti kune nhoroondo yakabatana yenyika, uye ibasa rangu kuedza kuiwana. " Uye zvinoita sekunge zvauri kutsanangura mumatambudziko nemisika, uko ese aya mazinga anosiya aya mahombe mhedzisiro pahurongwa hwese, kuti idzidziso yekubatanidza inoda kugadziriswa!
Noam: Zvakanaka, regai ndingotaura. Ndima dzauri kutaura dzinenge dzakaoma sainzi. Iwo ari ekutanga fizikisi uye chemistry, uye pamwe biology. Uye ndipo panomuka matambudziko ekubatana andaikurukura. Paunofamba uchienda kumagariro evanhu (misika yemisika nevamwe), yakaoma uye kune zvakawanda zvakasiyana-siyana uye zvishoma zvinonzwisiswa, zvokuti iwe unogona kusimudza mibvunzo iyi.
Rob: Asi ichocho hachingavi chiono chenguva refu here? Munoziva, kutaura chokwadi, Dr. Chomsky, ndiri kukuona semufungi mukuru pamwe chete nemunhu anoziva minutiae, saka ndiri kukubvunza mibvunzo mikuru chaizvo, nekuti inoratidzika kwandiri senge inoshanda!
Noam: Zvakanaka, mhando dzemibvunzo yanga ichikurukurwa mundima yawatora nezvekubatana ine chekuita nezvinhu zvakaita sekutanga 20.th chemistry yezana ramakore inoenderana neQuantum Theory. Ikozvino ndiyo nzira inopfuura chero chinhu chatinogona kukurukura munyaya yemagariro evanhu muhupenyu hwevanhu. Tinogona kutarisira kuti rimwe zuva tichanzwisisa zvakakwana pamusoro penyaya dzakaomarara kuti tikwanise kusimudza iyi mibvunzo, asi hazvina musoro kuti tiibvunze izvozvi. Ndinoreva kutora kunyange - wakatora kutaura kwangu kuti mainjiniya anofanirwa kunge achidzidza fizikisi yekutanga - asi rangarira mamiriro ekutaura ikoko. Ndanga ndichinongedzera kuchinja kwakaitika muzana ramakore rechimakumi maviri, muupenyu hwangu. Muchokwadi, kunyangwe panguva yebasa rangu rehunyanzvi, ndanga ndichinongedza kuti apo - MIT ndiyo yekutanga engineering kana sainzi chikoro munyika, kana zvechokwadi chimwe chazvo - kuti pandakasvika pano muma1950s, pakanga paine fizikisi yakanaka uye masvomhu. madhipatimendi, akanaka chaizvo, asi ivo vaipa masevhisi kune mainjiniya, vachivadzidzisa matipi avaigona kushandisa. Mainjiniya vakanga vachiri panguva iyoyo (kumakore ekuma1950), basa rouinjiniya rakanga richinyanya kuvakirwa paumhizha, ruzivo rwemhizha, unyanzvi, ruzivo; rudzi rwechinhu chinogadzira muvezi akanaka. Saka vadzidzi vaidzidza kuvaka zvinhu, kugadzira uye zvichingodaro, vachishandisa rudzi rwakadaro. Zvino nema1960, makore gumi gare gare, kosi yefundo yakanga yachinja zvikuru. Uye panzvimbo yekudzidza, iwe unoziva, mavakirwo aunoita masekete, kana kuvaka bhiriji, kana chimwe chinhu chakadaro, vadzidzi mudhipatimendi rega reinjiniya vaidzidza fizikisi yekutanga uye yekutanga chemistry. Uye pakanga pane zvikonzero zvinoverengeka nokuda kwaikoko: chimwe chikonzero chakanga chiri chokuti kwakanga kune kufambira mberi kukuru musayenzi noruzivo rwokugadzira zvinhu mukati menguva iyoyo; uye, kutaura zvazviri, imwe mhedzisiro yaive yekuti kana iwe waida kuita yakakomba engineering, iwe unonzwisisa zviri nani fizikisi yekutanga, nekuti yaive yava kushanda zvakananga. Uye zvakare, tekinoroji yaive yave kutanga kushanduka nekukurumidza, saka kudzidziswa mune tekinoroji yemazuva ano kunogona kusabatsira zvakanyanya makore gumi kubva zvino. Saka zvakanaka kuti unzwisise sainzi yekutanga iri kumashure kwayo, uye unenge wakashongedzerwa kubata nekuchinja. Asi iyo ichangobva kuchinja! Aya makumi emakore apfuura. Uye izvi zviri muzvidzidzo zvepamusoro. Zvakangofanana nezvakanga zvakaita mushonga.
Rob: Iwe unofunga kuti hupfumi nekushambadzira zviri padanho ripi, zvichienzaniswa"
Noam: Kwete kunyange mupaka bhora rimwe chete.
Rob Kall ndiye mupepeti mukuru, muparidzi uye mugadziri wewebhusaiti ye OpEdNews.com, Mubati weRob Kall Pazasi Up Radio Show (WNJC 1360 AM), uye muparidzi we Storycon.org, Mutungamiri we Iyo kambani Futurehealth, Inc, Uye muvambi . Anoburitswawo nguva nenguva pa Huffingtonpost.com
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