Guests:
Noam Chomsky, marubuci kuma Farfesa Farfesa Emeritus a MIT, inda ya koyar da fiye da rabin karni. Shi ne marubucin litattafai da dama. Na baya-bayan nan shi ne Jihohin da suka gaza: Cin Zarafi da Cin Hanci da Demokradiyya.
Naomi Klein, 'yar jarida kuma marubuci. Littafinta na baya-bayan nan shine Rukunan Shock: Tashin Jari-hujja na Bala'i.
Alice Walker, marubucin Pulitzer wanda ya lashe lambar yabo, mawaƙi kuma ɗan gwagwarmaya. Ta kasance dalibi na Howard Zinn a Kwalejin Spelman a farkon 1960s.
Anthony Arnove, mawallafi, tare da Howard Zinn, na Muryoyin Tarihin Jama'ar Amurka da kuma co-director, tare da Zinn, na Jama'a Suyi Magana
AMY GOODMAN: Muna watsa shirye-shirye daga Park City, Utah, daga Sundance Film Festival, gidan babban bikin fina-finai mai zaman kansa a ƙasar.
Muna ciyar da sauran sa'o'i don girmama Howard Zinn, marigayi masanin tarihi, marubuci kuma mai fafutuka. Ya rasu ne a ranar Laraba sakamakon bugun zuciya yana da shekaru tamanin da bakwai.
Bayan ya yi aiki a matsayin mai bama-bamai a yakin duniya na biyu, Howard Zinn ya ci gaba da zama mai adawa da zaman lafiya na tsawon rayuwarsa. Ya kasance mai aiki a cikin ƙungiyoyin kare hakkin jama'a da kuma yawancin gwagwarmayar tabbatar da adalci a cikin shekaru hamsin da suka wuce.
Ya koyar a Kwalejin Spelman, kwalejin baƙar fata ta tarihi ta mata. An kore shi ne saboda rashin biyayya saboda ya tsaya wa dalibai. Yayin da yake a Spelman, ya yi aiki a kan kwamitin zartarwa na SNCC, Kwamitin Gudanar da Ƙwararrun Ƙwararru na Student. Bayan an tilasta masa ficewa daga Spelman, Zinn ya zama farfesa a Jami'ar Boston.
A cikin 1967 ya buga Vietnam: Dabarar Janyewa. Shi ne littafi na farko kan yakin da aka yi kira da a janye nan take, babu wani sharadi. Shekara guda bayan haka, shi da Uba Daniel Berrigan sun yi tafiya zuwa Arewacin Vietnam don karɓar fursunonin yaƙe-yaƙe uku na Amurkawa waɗanda Arewacin Bietnam suka saki.
Lokacin da Daniel Ellsberg ya buƙaci wurin ɓoye Takardun Pentagon kafin a fallasa su ga manema labarai, ya tafi Howard da marigayiyar matarsa Roz.
A cikin 1980, Howard Zinn ya buga aikinsa na yau da kullun. Tarihin Jama'a na Amurka. Littafin zai ci gaba da sayar da fiye da kwafi miliyan kuma ya canza yadda muke kallon tarihi a Amurka. An yi littafin kwanan nan ya zama na musamman na talabijin da ake kira Mutane Suna Magana.
To, a cikin ɗan lokaci, Noam Chomsky, Alice Walker, Naomi Klein, Anthony Arnove za su kasance tare da mu. Amma da farko, ina so in juya ga wata hira da na yi da Howard Zinn a shekara ta 2005, inda ya yi magana game da lokacinsa na sojan sama bama-bamai a yakin duniya na biyu.
HOWARD ZINN: To, mun yi zaton harin bama-bamai ya kare. An kusa kawo karshen yakin. Wannan ya kasance a watan Afrilu na 1945, kuma ku tuna da yaƙin ya ƙare a farkon Mayu 1945. Wannan ya kasance ’yan makonni kafin a gama yaƙin, kuma kowa ya san cewa za a ƙare, kuma sojojinmu sun wuce Faransa zuwa Jamus. sai dai akwai wata ‘yar aljihun sojojin Jamus da ke rataye a kusa da wannan dan karamin garin Royan da ke gabar tekun Atlantika na kasar Faransa, kuma rundunar sojin sama ta yanke shawarar kai musu harin bam. Masu bom ɗari XNUMX masu nauyi, kuma ina cikin ɗaya daga cikinsu, suka tashi a kan wannan ƙaramin garin Royan kuma suka watsar da napalm—napalm na farko da aka fara amfani da shi a gidan wasan kwaikwayo na Turai.
Kuma ba mu san adadin mutanen da aka kashe ba ko kuma mutane nawa aka kona sosai sakamakon abin da muka yi. Amma na yi shi kamar yadda yawancin sojoji suke yi, ba tare da tunani ba, da injiniyoyi, suna tunanin muna kan daidai, suna kan kuskure, don haka za mu iya yin duk abin da muke so, kuma ba shi da kyau. Bayan haka, sai da gaske bayan yaƙin lokacin da nake karanta labarin Hiroshima daga John Hersey da kuma karanta labaran waɗanda suka tsira daga Hiroshima da abin da suka shiga, sai kawai na fara tunani game da illolin bom na ɗan adam. Daga nan ne na fara tunanin me ake nufi da ’yan Adam a kasa a lokacin da aka jefa musu bama-bamai, domin a matsayina na mai bama-bamai, ina shawagi a tsawon kafa 30,000, tsayinsa mil shida, ba na jin kururuwa, ban gani ba. jini. Kuma wannan yakin zamani ne.
A cikin yakin zamani, sojoji suna harbi, suna jefa bama-bamai, kuma ba su da wani tunani, da gaske, game da abin da ke faruwa da ’yan Adam da suke harbawa. Ana yin komai daga nesa. Wannan yana ba da damar aikata munanan ta'addanci. Kuma ina tunanin, in yi waiwaya kan wannan harin bama-bamai da tunanin abin da ya faru a Hiroshima da duk sauran hare-haren da aka kai kan garuruwan farar hula da kisan gillar da aka yi wa dimbin fararen hula a garuruwan Jamus da Japan, da kashe mutane 100,000 a Tokyo a cikin dare daya da aka yi wuta. -Bama-bamai, duk wannan ya sa na gane yaki, har ma da ake kira yaƙe-yaƙe masu kyau da ƴan fasikanci kamar Yaƙin Duniya na Biyu, yaƙe-yaƙe ba sa magance duk wata matsala ta asali, kuma suna kashe kowa da kowa a ɓangarorin biyu. Suna cutar da tunani da ruhin kowa na bangarorin biyu. Muna ganin cewa a yanzu a Iraki, inda zukatan sojojinmu ke shan guba ta hanyar zama sojojin mamaye a cikin ƙasa da ba a so su. Kuma sakamakon yana da muni.
AMY GOODMAN: Bayan ya dawo daga yakin, Howard Zinn ya halarci Jami'ar New York akan GI Bill. Sannan ya sami digirinsa na biyu da na uku a tarihi daga Jami’ar Columbia.
A cikin ƙarshen 50s, Howard Zinn ya koma Atlanta don koyarwa a makarantar mata baƙar fata Spelman, inda ya shiga cikin ƙungiyoyin yancin ɗan adam. Yanzu muna tare da ɗaya daga cikin tsoffin ɗalibansa, marubuci kuma mawaƙi Alice Walker. Yanzu tana tare da mu daga gidanta a Mexico.
Alice, barka da zuwa Democracy Now! Abin baƙin ciki ne in yi magana da ku a wannan rana bayan mun sami labarin mutuwar Howard Zinn.
ALICE WALKER: Na gode sosai da kuka gayyace ni muyi magana.
AMY GOODMAN: Amma magana game da tsohon malaminku.
ALICE WALKER: To, tsohon malamina yana ɗaya daga cikin mutane mafi ban dariya da na taɓa sani, kuma yana da yuwuwar ya faɗi abubuwa mafi ban mamaki a lokuta mafi ban mamaki.
Alal misali, a Atlanta sau ɗaya, mun isa wannan tsayin daka, a wancan lokacin, kwalejin farar fata, duk waɗannan ƴan mata fararen fata masu daraja a wurin da malamansu, kuma Howie ya tashi - Ban san yadda suka yi nasara ba. gayyace shi, amma duk da haka, muna nan. Kuma wannan ya kasance tun kafin kowane canje-canje a Atlanta. Har yanzu muna fama don shiga gidajen abinci. Don haka Howie ya tashi, ya haura zuwa gaban dakin, kuma wannan babban dakin yana cike da jama'a, ya fara magana da cewa, "To, na tsaya a gefen hagu na Mao Zedong." Kuma ya kasance kawai - wannan lokaci ne, saboda mutane ba za su iya tunanin wani a Atlanta ya ce wani abu makamancin haka ba, lokacin da a wancan lokacin Sinawa da Juyin Juya Halin Sinawa kawai ke nufin cewa, ka sani, mutane suna cikin duniyar da suke. kawai ci gaba kai tsaye, juyin juya halin jama'a. Don haka yana cewa ya bar wancan. Don haka, abu ne mai ban mamaki kawai.
Ina tsammanin ina jin zai rayu har abada. Kuma ina jin farin ciki har na yi sa'ar saninsa. Kuma ya yi tasiri mai ban mamaki a rayuwata da kuma rayuwar ɗaliban Spelman da na miliyoyin mutane. Mun yi farin ciki da samun sa tsawon waɗannan shekaru, tamanin da bakwai. Wannan dogon lokaci ne. Bai dade ba. Kuma ina godiya sosai.
AMY GOODMAN: An kori Alice, Howard Zinn daga Kwalejin Spelman-dama?— a matsayin farfesa, don rashin biyayya, ko da yake kwanan nan sun ba shi digiri na girmamawa, kuma ya yi jawabi ga daliban da suka kammala karatun. Me ya sa aka jefa shi waje?
ALICE WALKER: To, an jefar da shi waje domin yana ƙaunarmu, kuma ya nuna wannan ƙaunar ta wajen kasancewa tare da mu kawai. Yana son dalibansa. Bai ga dalilin da ya sa za mu zama ƴan ƙasa na biyu ba. Bai ga dalilin da ya sa ba za mu iya cin abinci a inda muke so mu kwana a inda muke so kuma mu kasance tare da mutanen da muke so mu kasance da su ba. Don haka, yana tare da mu. Bai tsaya baya ba, ka sani, a hasumiyarsa can a makarantar. Don haka, ya kasance mai tada zaune tsaye a wannan yanayin.
Kuma, ba shakka, gwamnati na iya korar ɗaliban don fafutuka. Kuma na bar Spelman saboda na rasa guraben karatu, amma na zauna. Daya daga cikin hanyoyin da suke sarrafa mu kenan. Kuma sun yi ƙoƙarin sarrafa shi, amma ba shakka ba za ku iya sarrafa Howie ba. Don haka, har sai da ya tafi hutun bazara ya kore shi, ya kore shi. Ba su kore shi fuska da fuska ba. Amma, eh, ya kasance, ka sani, mai tsattsauran ra'ayi ne kuma mai cin zali a cikin harabar, gwargwadon abin da ya shafi su. Kuma 'yancinmu ba shi da mahimmanci ga gwamnati. Abin da suke bukata shi ne kada mu girgiza jirgin.
AMY GOODMAN: Ina so in juya wurin Noam Chomsky, wanda har yanzu yana tare da mu a waya daga Boston. Noam, Ina so in tambaye ku game da rawar Howard Zinn a cikin gwagwarmayar antiwar a cikin 60s. A cikin 1968, Howard Zinn ya yi tafiya zuwa Arewacin Vietnam tare da Uba Daniel Berrigan don dawo da fursunoni uku na Amurka gida. Sun zama biyu daga cikin Amurkawa na farko da suka ziyarci Arewacin Vietnam a lokacin yakin. Wannan shine Howard Zinn yana magana a cikin 1968 bayan ya koma Amurka.
HOWARD ZINN: Baba Berrigan da ni, a kan hanyarmu ta dawowa - wannan yana iya zama kamar girman kai a bangarenmu, amma lokacin da - a kan hanyarmu ta dawowa daga Paris, mun aika da waya, ina tsammanin tare da tsabar kudi goma sha biyar na karshe, zuwa Fadar White House, yana cewa wani abu kamar haka. , “Muna so mu yi magana da ku, Shugaba Johnson. Ka sani, da fatan za a iya saduwa da mu? Mun dawo daga Hanoi. Mun yi magana da Firayim Minista, Pham Van Dong. Amma kawai mun karanta a cikin jarida cewa ka ce Arewacin Vietnamese ba su shirya don yin shawarwari ba. Abin da muka koya daga Pham Van Dong da alama ya saba wa hakan. Muna so mu yi magana da ku game da wannan da kuma batun sakin fursunonin, wanda muke ganin an yi kuskuren kuskure.” Amma har yanzu ba mu ga amsa daga LBJ ba.
AMY GOODMAN: Howard Zinn ne. Noam Chomsky, magana game da wannan lokacin. Yi magana game da lokacin da Howard Zinn ya tafi tare da Uba Dan Berrigan zuwa Arewacin Vietnam da abin da ake nufi.
NOAM CHOMSKY: To, wannan ci gaba ne na fahimtar mutuntakar maƙiyin hukuma. Tabbas, babban abokan gaba su ne mutanen Kudancin Vietnam, waɗanda kusan aka lalata su. Kudancin Vietnam ya lalace a lokacin. Kuma hakan yana da mahimmanci.
Amma, aƙalla a ganina, mafi-mafi mahimmanci shine nasa-littafin da kuka ambata a baya, Hankalin Janyewa. Kuma akwai, a lokacin - don haka ina tsammanin wannan tabbas ya kasance 1967 - kun sani, babban motsi na antiwar, amma yana kiyaye abubuwan jin daɗi, kun sani, daina yin waɗannan munanan abubuwa, yi ƙasa, da sauransu. Howard ya fashe da gaske. Shi ne mutum na farko da ya ce — da ƙarfi, a bainar jama’a, da lallashi—cewa dole ne a daina wannan; ya kamata mu fita, period, babu sharadi; ba mu da ikon zama a can; aiki ne na zalunci; ja daga.
A gaskiya ma, shi - abin mamaki ne a lokacin - ya zama ruwan dare gama gari - wanda ba zai iya ba - babu ko nazarin littafin. A gaskiya, ya tambaye ni ko zan bita a ciki Ramparts don kawai - wanda, ka sani, jaridar hagu na kasance a lokacin - kawai don wani - mutane za su gani. Don haka na yi haka.
Amma ya nutse cikin sauri sosai, kuma ya canza yadda mutane suke kallon yaƙin. Kuma a haƙiƙa, wannan na ɗaya daga cikin manyan nasarorin da ya samu. Ya kawai canza ra'ayin mutane, ta hanyar gardama da ƙarfin hali da amincinsa da shirye-shiryensa na kasancewa a kan gaba a kowane lokaci da sauƙi kuma, kamar yadda Alice Walker ya ce, abin dariya. Wannan lamari daya ne, yakin. Nasa Tarihin Mutane wani lamari ne. Ina nufin, kawai ya canza lamiri na dukan tsara.
An yi wasu nazarin, ka sani, na irin ayyuka daga ƙasa, amma ya ɗaga shi zuwa wani sabon jirgin sama gaba ɗaya. A haƙiƙa, furucin nasa da a kodayaushe ke shiga cikin raina shi ne girmamawarsa da cikakken nazarin abin da ya kira “ƙananan ayyukan mutanen da ba a san su ba” waɗanda ke kai ga waɗannan manyan lokuta da suka shiga tarihin tarihi, tarihin da kuka yi. kawai ba zai iya fara fahimta ba sai dai idan kun kalli waɗannan ƙananan ayyuka marasa ƙima.
Kuma ba wai kawai ya rubuta game da su ba, amma ya shiga cikin su. Kuma ya zaburar da wasu su shiga cikinsu. Kuma gwagwarmayar antiwar wani lamari ne, ƙungiyoyin kare hakkin jama'a a gabansa, yaƙe-yaƙe na Amurka ta tsakiya a cikin 1980s. A gaskiya ma, kusan kowane - ka sani, ma'aikacin ofis yana yajin aiki - game da duk abin da za ku iya - kowane muhimmin aiki na zaman lafiya da adalci, Howard yana can. Mutane sun gan shi a matsayin shugaba, amma ya kasance mai shiga tsakani. Halayensa na ban mamaki sun sa shi zama jagora, ko da kuwa yana zaune a kan-ka sani, yana jiran 'yan sanda su janye mutane kamar kowa.
AMY GOODMAN: Noam, a cikin 1971 - kuna iya tunawa da wannan; a gaskiya, kana iya kasancewa a wurin, amma Howard Zinn da Daniel Ellsberg 'yan sanda sun yi wa dukansu duka a Boston a wata zanga-zangar adawa da yakin Vietnam. Wata rana kafin bugun, Zinn ya yi magana a wani babban gangami a Boston Common. Wannan wani yanki ne daga cikin shirin Ba za ku iya zama tsaka tsaki a kan jirgin ƙasa mai motsi ba.
HOWARD ZINN: Mutane da yawa suna damuwa da rashin biyayya. Da zaran ka yi maganar tada zaune tsaye, sai su dan bata rai. Wannan shi ne ainihin manufar rashin biyayyar jama'a: don tada hankalin mutane, a dame su, a dame su. Mu da muka yi tawaye mu ma muna cikin damuwa, kuma muna nufin mu dagula wadanda ke da alhakin yakin.
DANIEL ELLSBERG: Ya ce a karshen jawabin nasa, na tuna, ya ce, “Yanzu bari in yi wa ‘yan sandan sirri jawabi a cikin wannan taron.”
HOWARD ZINN: Ku wakilan FBI da ke yawo a cikin jama'a, hey, ba ku ganin kuna keta ruhin dimokuradiyya ta abin da kuke yi? Ba ka ganin kana yin hali kamar ’yan sandan sirri na mulkin kama-karya?
DANIEL ELLSBERG: To, wannan ya ɗan ci masa ɗan rai, ina tsammanin, washegari da muke zaune a gaban ginin Tarayya, ina ji, domin, kuma, 'yan sanda sun zaɓi a ƙarshe su kama kusan kowa. Ba sa son kamawa. Ba sa son gwaji. Ba sa son tallan da za a danganta da hakan. Sun kama wasu shugabannin zobe ne kawai, kuma ɗayan waɗannan shine Howard.
HOWARD ZINN: Don haka, a bar ruhin rashin biyayya ya bazu zuwa masana’antar yaki, zuwa fagen fama, zuwa zauren majalisa, zuwa kowane gari da gari, har kashe-kashen ya tsaya, har sai mun sake dago kanmu a gaban duniya. Kuma yaranmu sun cancanci duniya ba tare da yaƙi ba, kuma ya kamata mu yi ƙoƙarin ba su hakan.
DANIEL ELLSBERG: Kuma a wannan lokacin, an ɗaga sanduna, kuma suka fara kula da mu sosai. An ja Howard, kamar yadda na ce. Rigarsa ta yage. Aka tafi da shi. Sai na ga jini na saukowa a kirjinsa yayin da yake fita.
AMY GOODMAN: Wannan wani yanki ne na shirin Ba za ku iya zama tsaka tsaki a kan jirgin ƙasa mai motsi ba, kuma shine taken tarihin rayuwar Howard Zinn.
Noam, muna da saura minti ɗaya a cikin wannan ɓangaren, amma magana game da wannan gwagwarmayar.
NOAM CHOMSKY: To, wannan lamarin ya yi kama da abin da Howard ya bayyana game da harin bam nasa. Ina nufin, a gaskiya ’yan sanda sun kasance masu tausayi, daidaikun ’yan sandan. Suna zuwa wurin masu zanga-zangar, ka sani, suna magana da goyon baya. Kuma a gaskiya ma, lokacin da aka ba su umarnin ci gaba, suna gaya wa mutane, Howard da sauransu, "Duba, don Allah ku matsa, saboda ba ma son yin wannan." Amma sai da odar ta zo, sai suka yi. Ban san wanene ba. Amma yana da yawa kamar yadda ya ce: lokacin da kuke cikin uniform, ƙarƙashin makamai, mai sarrafa kansa yana bin umarni, kuna yin shi.
Kuma kamar yadda Dan ya nuna, sun tafi daidai da Howard, mai yiwuwa a mayar da martani ga kalaman nasa ranar da ta gabata. Aka ja shi aka yi masa duka.
Amma ya kasance yana shiga cikin rashin biyayya ga jama'a. Na kasance tare da shi sau da yawa, kamar yadda Dan Ellsberg ya kasance da sauransu. Kuma ya kasance mai adalci-ba shi da tsoro. Ya kasance mai sauki. Ya mike tsaye. Ya fadi abubuwan da suka dace, ya fadi su da kyau, kuma ya zaburar da wasu su ci gaba ta hanyoyin da ba za su yi ba, ya canza ra’ayi. Sun canza ra'ayinsu ta wurin ayyukansu da jinsa. Ya kasance da gaske-a cikin rayuwarsa da kuma a cikin aikinsa, mutum ne mai ban mamaki, wanda ba zai iya maye gurbinsa ba.
AMY GOODMAN: Noam, kai ma abokai ne na sirri da Howard. Kai da Carol, Howard da Roz sun yi lokacin rani kusa da juna akan Cape.
NOAM CHOMSKY: Ee, mun kasance abokai na sirri, abokai na kud da kud na shekaru da yawa, sama da shekaru arba'in. Don haka, ba shakka, hasara ce ta sirri. Amma ya wuce—har ma da abokansa da danginsa na kud da kud, rashi ne kawai ga miliyoyin mutane—waye ya san adadin adadin da ba shi da iyaka?—Rayuwarsu ya taɓa kuma ya canza kuma ya taimaka musu su zama mutane masu kyau.
Abu daya mai kyau shi ne ya fahimce su kuma ya gane su, tabbas, musamman a waɗancan shekaru na ƙarshe na ban mamaki, ƙwazo na rayuwarsa, yadda aka yi maraba da gudummawar da ya bayar, da sha'awar shi, yadda ake so da sha'awarsa, kuma yana iya waiwaya baya. rayuwa mai gamsarwa ta gaske na nasara da ba a saba gani ba.
AMY GOODMAN: To, Noam Chomsky, ina so in gode maka da kasancewa tare da mu. Noam masanin harshe ne, sanannen ɗan adawa kuma babban aminin Howard Zinn. Kuma Alice Walker, godiya, haka kuma, don haɗa mu daga Mexico, tsohon ɗalibi kuma abokin Howard Zinn.
wannan shi ne Democracy Now! Idan muka dawo, za mu ji ƙarin bayani game da Howard a cikin kalmominsa, kuma za mu kasance tare da Anthony Arnove, babban editan sa kuma abokin aikinsa. Ku zauna tare da mu.
[karya]
AMY GOODMAN: Anthony Arnove da Naomi Klein za su kasance tare da mu, amma a wannan ranar bakin ciki, washegarin labarin mutuwar Howard Zinn, ina so in juya zuwa ɗaya daga cikin tambayoyin ƙarshe da muka yi da shi. Mayu 2009. Ya zo New York don tallata sabon littafinsa.
AMY GOODMAN: Ka rubuta a cikin gabatarwar zuwa Tarihin Matasa na Amurka, “A cikin shekaru da yawa, wasu mutane sun tambaye ni: ‘Shin kana ganin cewa tarihinka, wanda ya bambanta da na tarihin Amirka, ya dace da matasa? Shin ba zai haifar da rudani da kasarmu ba? Shin daidai ne a rika sukar manufofin gwamnati haka? Shin daidai ne a kawar da jaruman gargajiya na al'umma, kamar Christopher Columbus, Andrew Jackson, Theodore Roosevelt?'
HOWARD ZINN: Ee, gaskiya ne cewa mutane sun yi ta maimaita wannan tambayar. Ka sani, ya kamata mu gaya wa yara cewa Columbus, wanda aka gaya musu cewa babban jarumi ne, cewa Columbus ya yanka Indiyawa kuma ya sace su kuma ya kashe su don neman zinariya? Shin ya kamata mu gaya wa mutane cewa Theodore Roosevelt, wanda aka rike a matsayin daya daga cikin manyan shugabanninmu, da gaske ne mai son kashe-kashen soja kuma ya taya wani Janar na Amurka da ya yi kisan kiyashi a Philippines? Ya kamata mu gaya wa matasa haka?
Kuma ina ganin amsar ita ce: ya kamata mu kasance masu gaskiya ga matasa; kada mu yaudare su. Ya kamata mu yi gaskiya game da tarihin kasarmu. Kuma ya kamata ba kawai mu zubar da jaruman gargajiya irin su Andrew Jackson da Theodore Roosevelt ba, amma ya kamata mu ba wa matasa wasu nau'ikan jarumai.
Maimakon Theodore Roosevelt, gaya musu game da Mark Twain. Mark Twain-da kyau, Mark Twain, kowa ya koya game da matsayin marubucin Tom Sawyer da kuma Huckleberry Finn, amma idan muka je makaranta, ba ma koyi game da Mark Twain a matsayin mataimakin shugaban kungiyar Anti-Imperialist League. Ba a gaya mana cewa Mark Twain ya yi tir da Theodore Roosevelt saboda amincewa da wannan kisan kiyashi a Philippines. A'a.
Muna son baiwa matasa kyawawan halaye kamar Helen Keller. Kuma na tuna koyo game da Helen Keller. Kowa ya san game da Helen Keller, ka sani, wata naƙasasshiyar da ta shawo kan nakasarta kuma ta shahara. Amma mutane ba sa koyo a makaranta kuma matasa ba sa koyon abin da muke so su koya idan muna yin littattafai kamar haka. Tarihin Matasa na Amurka, cewa Helen Keller yar gurguzu ce. Ta kasance mai tsara aiki. Ta ki tsallaka wani layin da ke zabar gidan wasan kwaikwayo da ke nuna wasan kwaikwayo game da ita.
Don haka, akwai madaidaitan jarumai a tarihin Amurka. Akwai Fannie Lou Hamer da Bob Moses. Su ne jaruman fafutukar kare hakkin jama'a. Akwai mutane da yawa waɗanda ba a sani ba, waɗanda ba a san su ba. Muna da a cikin wannan Tarihin Matasa, Muna da wani matashin jarumi wanda ke zaune a kan bas a Montgomery, Alabama, ya ƙi barin gaban motar. Kuma wannan ya kasance kafin Rosa Parks. Ina nufin, Rosa Parks ta shahara saboda ƙin barin wurin zama, kuma an kama ta, kuma wannan shine farkon kauracewa Bas ɗin Montgomery kuma ainihin farkon babban motsi a Kudu. Amma wannan yarinya 'yar shekara goma sha biyar ta fara yi. Don haka, muna da abubuwa da yawa—muna ƙoƙarin dawo da da yawa daga cikin waɗannan mutane masu ruɗewa a cikin sahun gaba a cikin hankalinmu kuma mu zaburar da matasa su ce, “Wannan ita ce hanyar rayuwa.”
AMY GOODMAN: Ee, Howard Zinn ke nan. Anthony Arnove yana tare da mu a New York, Naomi Klein a nan Sundance, inda Howard Zinn ya kasance a bara, yana farawa. Mutane Suna Magana. Ya kasance a nan tare da Anthony Arnove, wanda shine mawallafin marubucin Muryoyin Tarihin Jama'a na Amurka da Anthony.
Anthony, muna da 'yan mintoci kaɗan kawai, amma raba ra'ayoyin ku game da sabon aikin Howard Zinn. Na san wannan babbar asara ce a gare ku, da kuma ga kowa da kowa.
Anthony ARNOVE: To, ka sani, Howard bai huta ba. Yana da irin wannan kuzarin. Kuma a cikin ’yan shekarun nan, ya ci gaba da rubutawa, ya ci gaba da magana, kuma ya kawo wannan tarihin da ya yi magana a kansa a cikin wannan sashin da kuka gabatar. Ya so ya kawo sabbin al’umma da suka yi mu’amala da muryoyin ‘yan adawa, muryoyin zanga-zangar, da ba sa shiga cikin littattafan makarantarsu, da ba mu shiga kafafen yada labarai na kafa mu, da tunatar da su game da ikon muryar su, tunatar da su ikon rashin yarda, ikon nuna rashin amincewa. Kuma yana so ya bar gadon ƙirƙira waɗannan muryoyin, haɗa waɗannan muryoyin.
Kuma ya yi aiki tuƙuru don haɗa wannan gagarumin shirin, Mutane Suna Magana, wanda ya ruwaito. Ya yi aiki tuƙuru don ya kawo hakan. Kuma, ka sani, kawai na ji gata sosai don samun damar yin aiki tare da shi kwata-kwata, balle a kan wannan aikin, kuma na ga an gane hakan.
Amma, ka sani, Alice Walker ya yi magana game da barkwancinsa, jin daɗinsa a rayuwa, kuma hakan yana da cutar. A hakika ya bayyana wa duk wanda ya yi mu’amala da shi cewa babu wani aiki mai ma’ana da ya wuce shiga cikin gwagwarmaya, babu cikakkiyar hanyar rayuwa ko kuma muhimmiyar hanyar rayuwa fiye da gwagwarmayar neman adalci. Kuma mutane da yawa, har da ni, amma, ka sani, miliyoyin mutane a duniya, mutane marasa adadi, sun canza rayuwarsu ta hanyar ci karo da Howard Zinn—Howard ya canza rayuwarsu—karantawa. Tarihin Jama'a na Amurka, jin daya daga cikin laccocinsa, saduwa da shi, jin shi a rediyo, karanta labarin da ya rubuta. Haqiqa ya zaburar da mutane su qirqiro nau’ukan qungiyoyin da suka kawo ko wane hakki, ko wane ’yanci, ko wane irin ‘yanci da muke da shi a qasar nan. Kuma hakika wannan shine gadon da ya hau kanmu duka mu tsawaita kuma mu raya da kuma ci gaba da rayarwa.
AMY GOODMAN: Anthony, Ina so in dawo da Naomi Klein cikin wannan tattaunawar. Ina tsammanin yana da ban sha'awa sosai muna nan a Sundance, inda kuka kasance tare da Howard Zinn a bara, kamar yadda ya fara. Mutane Suna Magana. Amma jiya da dare, bayan Howard ya mutu, mun ga New York Times kafa AP, Associated Press, obit. The Times yana da wani abu kamar 1,200 obits da aka riga aka shirya don mutane. Ba su da wanda aka shirya don Howard Zinn. Kuma wannan Associated Press obit ya tafi da sauri zuwa maganar Arthur Schlesinger, masanin tarihi, wanda ya taɓa cewa, "Na sani" - yana magana ne game da Howard Zinn - "Na san yana ɗauke ni a matsayin mai haɗari mai haɗari. Kuma ba na dauke shi da muhimmanci. Shi dan siyasa ne, ba masanin tarihi ba." Naomi Klein, amsar ku?
NAOMI KLEIN: Ba na tsammanin hakan zai dami Howard Zinn ko kadan. Bai taba mamakin lokacin da iko ya kare kansa ba. Kuma da gaske shi masanin tarihin mutane ne, don haka bai kalli manyan mutane don tabbatarwa ba.
Ina matukar farin ciki da Anthony da ƙungiyar ban mamaki daga Mutane Suna Magana ya ba Howard wannan kyauta mai ban mamaki a ƙarshen rayuwarsa. Na kasance a Cibiyar Lincoln a farkon Mutane Suna Magana kuma yana can lokacin da kawai ambaton sunan Howard ya sa dubban mutane suka yi tsalle suna ba shi babban abin da ya cancanta. Don haka bana jin yana bukatar hakan New York Times. Ba na tsammanin yana bukatar masana tarihi na hukuma. Shi ne malamin da kowa ya fi so, malamin da ya canza rayuwar ku, amma ya kasance ga miliyoyin mutane da miliyoyin mutane. Don haka, ka sani, abin da ya faru ke nan. Mun dai rasa malamin da muke so.
Amma abin da ke game da Howard shi ne cewa tarihin da ya koyar ba wai kawai ya rasa hasashe a hukumance game da kishin ƙasa ba, game da jarumtaka. Ya kasance game da gaya wa mutane su yi imani da kansu da kuma ikon su na canza duniya. Don haka, kamar kowane malami mai ban sha'awa, ya bar duk waɗannan darussan a baya. Kuma ina ganin ya kamata mu duka kawai mu yanke shawarar zama dan kadan kamar Howard a yau.
AMY GOODMAN: To, bari mu ƙare da Howard Zinn a cikin kalmominsa, daga ɗaya daga cikin jawabinsa na ƙarshe. Yayi magana a Jami'ar Boston watanni biyu kacal da suka wuce a watan Nuwamba.
HOWARD ZINN: Ko me aka ce mana, ko wane azzalumi ya wanzu, wace iyaka aka ketare, wane irin zalunci ne aka yi, ba wai za mu yi tawassuli da zalunci ko zalunci ba, a’a, amma za mu yi. nemo hanyoyin da ban da yaki don magance kowace irin matsala da muke da ita, domin babu makawa yaki - babu makawa - babban kisan gilla na mutane masu yawa. Kuma yara suna da kyau a cikin waɗannan mutanen. Kowane yaki yaki ne da yara.
Don haka ba kawai kawar da Saddam Hussein ba ne, idan muka yi tunani akai. To, mun rabu da Saddam Hussein. A cikin haka, mun kashe ɗimbin mutanen da Saddam Hussein ya shafa. Lokacin da kuke yaki da azzalumi, wa kuke kashewa? Kuna kashe wanda azzalumi ya kashe. Ko ta yaya, duk wannan - duk wannan shine kawai don sa mu sake tunani game da yaƙi kuma muyi tunani, kun sani, muna yaƙi yanzu, daidai? A Iraki, a Afghanistan da kuma irin a Pakistan, tun da muna aika rokoki a can kuma muna kashe mutane marasa laifi a Pakistan. Don haka, bai kamata mu yarda da hakan ba.
Yakamata mu nemi yunkurin zaman lafiya mu shiga. Haƙiƙa, nemi ƙungiyar zaman lafiya don shiga. Zai yi kama da ƙarami a farkon, kuma mai tausayi da rashin taimako, amma wannan shine yadda ƙungiyoyi suka fara. Haka aka fara yunkurin yaki da yakin Vietnam. An fara ne da ƴan tsirarun mutane waɗanda suke ganin ba su da wani taimako, suna ganin ba su da ƙarfi. Amma ku tuna, wannan iko na mutane a saman ya dogara da biyayyar mutanen da ke ƙasa. Lokacin da mutane suka daina biyayya, ba su da iko. Lokacin da ma'aikata suka tafi yajin aiki, manyan kamfanoni sun rasa ikonsu. Lokacin da masu amfani suka kauracewa, manyan wuraren kasuwanci dole ne su ba da kansu. Lokacin da sojoji suka ƙi yin yaƙi, kamar yadda sojoji da yawa suka yi a Vietnam, ƴan gudun hijira da yawa, ɓangarorin da yawa, ayyukan tashin hankali da wasu mazaje suka yi wa jami'an a Vietnam, matukin jirgin B-52 sun ƙi. don tashi ayyukan bama-bamai kuma, yaki ba zai iya ci gaba ba. Lokacin da isassun sojoji suka ƙi, dole ne gwamnati ta yanke shawara ba za mu iya ci gaba ba. Don haka, a, mutane suna da iko. Idan suka fara shiri, idan suka yi zanga-zanga, idan suka samar da wani yunkuri mai karfi, za su iya canza abubuwa. Abin da nake so ke nan ke nan. Na gode.
AMY GOODMAN: Ee, Howard Zinn ke nan. Yayin da muke kammalawa a yau, Naomi Klein, kalmominku na ƙarshe?
NAOMI KLEIN: To, muna cikin tsakiyar farfaɗowar Howard Zinn. Ina nufin, hakan yana faruwa. Kuma yana da ban mamaki ga wani a ƙarshen rayuwarsa yana yin fina-finai game da su kuma yana wasa a talabijin, kuma littattafansa sun dawo cikin jerin masu siyarwa. Kuma saboda musamman saƙon da Howard ya ba da dukan rayuwarsa, ya sadaukar da rayuwarsa gaba ɗaya, yana da dacewa a wannan lokacin. Ina nufin, ko da tunani game da shi a ranar bayan jawabin Jihar Ƙungiyar, saƙon Howard bai yarda da manyan mutane ba; yarda da kanka; tarihi ya zo daga kasa zuwa sama.
Kuma mun manta da yadda sauyi ke faruwa a kasar nan. Muna tunanin cewa za ku iya zabe kawai kuma canjin zai faru a gare mu. Kuma Howard kawai yana tunatar da mu ba tare da ɓata lokaci ba, a'a, kuna yin canjin da kuke so. Kuma wannan saƙon ya dace sosai a wannan lokacin. Kuma ina jin godiya sosai ga Anthony da, kuma, duk ƙungiyar da ta sauƙaƙe wannan farfaɗo, saboda muna buƙatar muryar Howard fiye da kowane lokaci a yanzu.
AMY GOODMAN: Kuma, ba shakka, wannan aikin na ƙarshe, Mutane Suna Magana, Ya bayyana a Tashar Tarihi, oh, kawai a cikin makonnin da suka gabata, ainihin ƙarshen aikin Howard Zinn.
ZNetwork ana samun kuɗi ta hanyar karimcin masu karatun sa.
Bada Tallafi