U-AMY GOODMAN: Isivakashi sami esilandelayo kuze kuphele ihora uHoward Zinn, omunye wosomlando abadume kakhulu ezweni. Umsebenzi wakhe wakudala, Umlando Wabantu We-United States, yashintsha indlela esibheka ngayo umlando eMelika. Ishicilelwe okokuqala engxenyeni yesine yekhulu edlule, le ncwadi idayise amakhophi angaphezu kwesigidi futhi iyaqhubeka nokuthengisa amakhophi engeziwe unyaka ngamunye olandelanayo.
Ngemva kokusebenza njengesisebenzi sasegcekeni lemikhumbi kwase kuba i-Air Force bombardier eMpini Yezwe II, u-Howard Zinn waqhubeka waba yisishoshovu sokuthula impilo yakhe yonke. Waya ekolishi ngaphansi koMthethosivivinywa we-GI, wathola i-PhD yakhe e-Columbia. Wayekhuthele emzabalazweni wamalungelo abantu kanye nemizabalazo eminingi yobulungiswa bezenhlalakahle phakathi nengxenye yekhulu leminyaka edlule. Wafundisa eSpelman College, ikolishi labesifazane abamnyama ngokomlando e-Atlanta, waxoshwa ngenxa yokungalaleli ngokumela abesifazane. Manje usenguSolwazi Emeritus eBoston University futhi usanda kuhlonishwa nguSpelman.
U-Howard Zinn uthole i-Thomas Merton Award, i-Eugene V. Debs Award, i-Upton Sinclair Award, kanye ne-Lannan Literary Award. Ungumbhali wezincwadi eziningi, okuhlanganisa nochungechunge Lomlando Wabantu; uchungechunge lwemiqulu eyisikhombisa kuma-Radical '60s; amaqoqo amaningana ezindatshana zobuciko, impi, ezombangazwe kanye nomlando; kanye nemidlalo Emma futhi I-Marx e-Soho.
Kulo nyaka, idokhumentari esekelwe ekudlalweni okubukhoma kuka-Howard Zinn's Umlando Wabantu We-United States futhi Amazwi Omlando Wabantu wase-United States idlala okokuqala ku-History, Isiteshi Somlando. Kubizwa The People Khuluma. Ididiyelwe ngokubambisana nguHoward Zinn, u-Anthony Arnove noChris Moore. Izoba nemidlalo emangalisayo elandisa ngomlando wezwe kusukela kubadlali abafana noMat Damon noJosh Brolin noViggo Mortensen noMarisa Tomei noDon Cheadle noJasmine Guy noKerry Washington kanye nabaculi abafana noBruce Springsteen no-Eddie Vedder noJohn Legend.
Hhayi-ke, u-Howard Zinn useNew York namuhla ukwethula uhlelo olusha lwe-paperback Umlando Wabantu Abasha wase-United States, eguqulelwe nguRebecca Stefoff. Namuhla kusihlwa, uzobe ese-92nd Street Y eNew York ephethe umculo odlalwayo nezingoma ezivela Amazwi Omlando Wabantu wase-United States.
Siyakwamukela, Howard.
U-HOWARD ZINN: Ngiyabonga, Amy. Ngijabule ngokuba lapha.
U-AMY GOODMAN: Kuhle ukuba nawe. Kuleso singeniso ngaphambili, uno-Eddie Vedder ocula u-Bob Dylan, “Masters of War,” ingxenye ye—
U-HOWARD ZINN: Lokho kuyingxenye ye-documentary, yebo, ecula ingoma kaDylan ethi "Masters of War." Ngicabanga ukuthi sibe noDylan alalele u-Eddie Vedder ecula iculo, futhi sabuza uBob Dylan ukuthi ufuna ukulicula yini. Futhi wathi, “Cha, lokho kuhle. Vumela u-Eddie ayicule.” Ngakho-ke, sinoBob Dylan ocula ingoma kaWoody Guthrie efilimini, "Do Re Mi," enye yezingoma ezidumile zikaWoody Guthrie.
U-AMY GOODMAN: Khuluma ngalo lonke lolu chungechunge nalokhu—ngiqonde ukuthi, lokhu kuyakhula nje. I Umlando Wabantu wase-United States liyincwadi ephawulekayo—kahle, kungani ungayichazi ifilosofi, indlela yakho yomlando wase-US?
U-HOWARD ZINN: Yebo. Well, of course, umqondo Umlando Wabantu wukweqa lokho abantu abakufundile esikoleni nalokho engakufunda esikoleni noma abantu abaningi abakufunde esikoleni, futhi lokho kuwumlando ngeso labomongameli kanye nojenene ezimpini ezalwiwa ngeMpi Yombango, futhi sifuna amazwi kwabantu, abantu abavamile, abahlubuki, abaphikisayo, abesifazane, abantu abamnyama, abantu base-Asia baseMelika, abokufika, abasonhlalakahle kanye nama-anarchists kanye nabahlukumezi bazo zonke izinhlobo. Ngakho, sanquma ukuhlanganisa—mina no-Anthony Arnove sahlanganisa imibhalo engu-200. I-Seven Stories Press ivumile ukuyikhipha. Futhi le mibhalo engama-200 iyizincwadi kanye nezikhumbuzo kanye nezikhumbuzo zabantu abasukuma ngokumelene nokusungulwa.
Manje, ngokwesibonelo, sinowesifazane omnyama okhumbula ekhulela eNingizimu, eNingizimu ehlukanisiwe, futhi ehamba eya esikoleni esikoleni sakhe esasihlukanisiwe nabamnyama futhi kwadingeka adlule endaweni yokudlala yabamhlophe, lapho ayefuna ukuhamba khona—efuna ukuya. kumajikijolo, akakwazanga ukukwenza lokhu ngoba wayengakwazi ukuma kule ndawo yokudlala emhlophe. Futhi waya esikoleni futhi wenqaba ukucula "The Star-Spangled Banner." Futhi bambuza ukuthi kungani. Wathi, “Ngoba inqobo nje uma ngingeke ngikwazi ukuqhubeka nalo mjikijelo, ayikho inkululeko nobulungiswa kubo bonke.” Futhi-ke, sinoku-lokho okunye nje kokunye kokufunda okuningi encwadini yethu.
Futhi kulokhu Umlando Wentsha esiyethula namuhla kusihlwa ku-92nd Street Y, sinalawa magama amaningi amangalisayo abantu abake baba ngabaphikisi nabaphikisayo emlandweni. Akukona-asisethuli umlando wokuhlukunyezwa; sethula umlando wokulwa kwabantu. Futhi sifuna ukunikeza—sifuna ukunika abantu baseMelika umlando obabonisa ukuthi kungenzeka ukuthi ulwe, ukuthi awudingi ukuncika kuMongameli noKhongolose kanye neNkantolo Ephakeme. Eqinisweni, kungcono unganciki kubo, ngoba ngeke baxazulule izinkinga eziyisisekelo esinazo emphakathini wethu. Singakwenza ngokwethu kuphela, lapho sihlela, lapho senza, lapho sibhikisha. Ngakho-ke, sizama, yebo, ukunika abantu amandla ngokufunda umlando ovusa inkanuko futhi okhuthazayo.
U-AMY GOODMAN: Ubhala esingeniso ku Umlando Wabantu Abasha wase-United States, “Phakathi neminyaka edlule, abanye abantu baye bangibuza: ‘Ingabe ucabanga ukuthi umlando wakho, ohluke ngokuphelele kunomlando ovamile wase-United States, ufanelekile kubantu abasha? Ngeke yini kudale ukudumazeka ngezwe lethu? Kufanelekile yini ukugxekwa kangaka ngezinqubomgomo zikahulumeni? Ingabe kulungile ukwehlisela phansi amaqhawe endabuko esizwe, njengoChristopher Columbus, Andrew Jackson, Theodore Roosevelt?’”
U-HOWARD ZINN: Yebo, kuyiqiniso ukuthi abantu baye babuza lowo mbuzo kaningi. Niyazi, kufanele sitshele izingane ukuthi uColumbus, eziye zatshelwa ukuthi wayeyiqhawe elikhulu, ukuthi uColumbus wacwiya amaNdiya wawathumba futhi wawabulala efuna igolide? Ingabe kufanele sitshele abantu ukuthi uTheodore Roosevelt, obanjwe njengomunye womongameli bethu abakhulu, ngempela wayengumshisekeli owayethanda izenzo zezempi futhi owayehalalisela ujenene waseMelika owabulala abantu abaningi ePhilippines? Kufanele yini sitshele abantu abasha lokho?
Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi impendulo ithi: kufanele sithembeke kubantu abasha; akufanele sibakhohlise. Kufanele sithembeke ngomlando wezwe lethu. Futhi akufanele nje sisuse amaqhawe endabuko afana no-Andrew Jackson kanye no-Theodore Roosevelt, kodwa kufanele sinikeze abantu abasha elinye iqoqo lamaqhawe.
Esikhundleni sikaTheodore Roosevelt, batshele ngoMark Twain. UMark Twain-kahle, uMark Twain, wonke umuntu ufunda ngaye njengombhali we UTom Sawyer futhi Huckleberry uFinn, kodwa lapho siya esikoleni, asifundi ngoMark Twain njengephini likamongameli we-Anti-Imperialist League. Asitshelwa ukuthi u-Mark Twain ugxeke u-Theodore Roosevelt ngokugunyaza lesi sibhicongo e-Philippines. Cha.
Sifuna ukunikeza abantu abasha izibalo ezifanele njengoHelen Keller. Futhi ngikhumbula ngifunda ngoHelen Keller. Wonke umuntu ufunda ngoHelen Keller, uyazi, umuntu okhubazekile owanqoba ukukhubazeka kwakhe futhi waduma. Kodwa abantu abafundi esikoleni futhi intsha ayifundi esikoleni lokho esifuna bakufunde uma senza izincwadi ezifana Umlando Wabantu Abasha wase-United States, ukuthi uHelen Keller wayengu-socialist. Ubengumgqugquzeli wezabasebenzi. Wenqaba ukweqa ulayini wokuqopha owawucosha indawo yeshashalazi ebonisa umdlalo okhuluma ngaye.
Ngakho-ke, kukhona lawa amanye amaqhawe emlandweni waseMelika. Kukhona uFannie Lou Hamer noBob Moses. Bangamaqhawe enhlangano elwela amalungelo abantu. Baningi abantu abangacacile, abangaziwa. Sinakho kulokhu Umlando Wentsha, sineqhawe elincane elalihlezi ebhasini eMontgomery, e-Alabama, lenqaba ukusuka ngaphambili ebhasini. Futhi lokho kwakungaphambi kweRosa Parks. Ngisho ukuthi, i-Rosa Parks idume ngokufanelekile ngokwenqaba ukushiya isihlalo sayo, futhi waboshwa, futhi lokho kwaba ukuqala kwe-Montgomery Bus Boycott futhi ngempela ukuqala komnyakazo omkhulu eNingizimu. Kodwa le ntombazane eneminyaka eyishumi nanhlanu yakwenza kuqala. Ngakho-ke, sinokuningi—sizama ukubuyisela iningi lalaba bantu abangacacile phambi kwethu futhi sigqugquzele abantu abasha ukuthi bathi, “Le yindlela yokuphila.”
U-AMY GOODMAN: Howard, sizophuka bese siyabuya. Kodwa ikhefu liyingxenye yokusebenza kwe The People Khuluma. U-Howard Zinn uyisivakashi sethu, isazi-mlando esiyinganekwane. Incwadi entsha, Umlando Wabantu Abasha wase-United States. Hlala nathi.
[ikhefu]
U-AMY GOODMAN: UChris noRich Robinson weBlack Crowes, becula ingoma kaNeil Young ethi “Ohio” mayelana nokwenzeka ngoMeyi 4, 1970, ukudubula kweSifundazwe saseKent. Futhi ngiyakunxusa ukuthi uye kuwebhusayithi yethu ku democracynow.org ukuzwa u-Alan noChic Canfora. U-Alan wadutshulwa ngalolo suku. Ngesikhathi sisohambweni lwethu lwe-“Community Voices, Community Media”, sakhuluma naye ekhempasini e-Kent State.
Futhi kusasa, Meyi 14, kuwusuku lwesikhumbuzo se-Jackson State College, manje eseyi-Jackson State University, izigameko zokudubula e-Jackson, e-Mississippi, lapho amasosha adubula abulala abafundi ababili, lelo elalingakhunjulwa njalo.
Isivakashi sethu namuhla nguHoward Zinn, isazi-mlando esiyinganekwane, kubhala Umlando Wabantu We-United States. Futhi manje kukhona zonke lezi zimo. Namuhla, uyethula Umlando Wabantu Abasha wase-United States, eguqulelwe nguRebecca Stefoff.
Kodwa ungumlandi omkhulu wenhlangano yamalungelo abantu. I-Jackson State ayaziwa njenge-Kent State.
U-HOWARD ZINN: Yebo, kuyinto evamile emlandweni ukungazinaki izinto ezenzeka kubantu abamnyama. Futhi-ke, ukudutshulwa kweSifundazwe sase-Kent kwakuyisenzakalo esimangalisa kakhulu futhi esibi kakhulu futhi sifanele ukukhunjulwa njengenye yalezo zinto eziyihlazo emlandweni waseMelika. Kodwa abezindaba bavame ukugxila kwezinye izinto hhayi kwezinye, futhi abezindaba abazange bagxile kwesinye isigameko sokudubula esenzeke eJackson State, lapho kwadutshulwa khona abafana ababili abamnyama. Ngakho-ke, yebo, ngicabanga ukuthi umsebenzi wethu njengosomlando uwukuveza izinto esingazange sizithole ngokujwayelekile ezifundweni zethu zomlando.
U-AMY GOODMAN: Noma ngoFebhuwari 8, 1968, i-Orangeburg Massacre eSouth Carolina, abafundi bebhikisha. Futhi ngamangala uma ngibuka u-Barack Obama, niyazi, empofu njengoba umdlalo wakhe we-bowling unjalo. Kodwa empeleni, kuyadabukisa kuleli zwe ukuthi kuyinqubekelaphambili ukubona indoda yase-Afrika yaseMelika iphosa ibhola, ngoba lezi zingane, ngoFebhuwari ka-1968, zibhikishela ukuhlukaniswa kwe-bowling alley, futhi amasosha avulela ngenhlamvu.
U-HOWARD ZINN: Yebo.
U-AMY GOODMAN: Amaphoyisa avulele ngenhlamvu. Abathathu abashonile.
U-HOWARD ZINN: Yebo. Futhi, uyazi, kwaze kwaba yilapho ngiya eningizimu ngiyofundisa ekolishi labamnyama lapho mina, ngokwami, ngaqaphela umlando wabamnyama oshiywe ngaphandle kwezincwadi zethu zomlando. Futhi ngafunda esikoleni esiphakeme e-Columbia University, futhi ngafunda okuncane kakhulu ngomlando wabantu abamnyama. U-WEB Du Bois ubengekho ohlwini lwethu lokufunda. Zazingekho ngempela izazi-mlando ezimnyama ohlwini lwethu lokufunda. Kodwa lapho ngifika eningizimu futhi ngicwila emphakathini wabansundu, futhi ngaqala ukufunda lezi zazi-mlando zabamnyama.
Ngiqonde ukuthi, ngokwesibonelo, ngafunda isazi-mlando uRayford Logan, owayenikeza umlando wasekuqaleni kwekhulunyaka lamashumi amabili, okuthi ezifundweni zomlando wendabuko waseMelika ubizwe ngeNkathi Eqhubekayo. I-Progressive Era. Uveze ukuthi esikhathini esibizwa ngeProgressive Era, baningi abantu abamnyama ababulawa ukwedlula noma yisiphi esinye isikhathi emlandweni waseMelika. Ngakho, lokho kuhlanekezelwa komlando wethu okwenzeka lapho sikwenza ngobuhlanga, imigqa yamakhaladi.
U-AMY GOODMAN: U-Alice Walker ukhulume ngawe njengomunye wothisha bakhe abakhulu eSpelman. Kodwa uxoshwe eSpelman, nakuba usanda kuhlonishwa lapho.
U-HOWARD ZINN: Hhayi-ke, masingasebenzisi igama elithi “ukuxoshwa.”
U-AMY GOODMAN: O, ngiyaxolisa.
U-HOWARD ZINN: Emhlabeni wezemfundo, sinemibandela enesizotha: "Inkontileka yakhe ayizange ivuselelwe."
U-AMY GOODMAN: Uxoshwe waxoshwa.
U-HOWARD ZINN: Yebo, waxoshwa futhi waxoshwa. Kodwa, njengoba uke washo ngaphambilini, eminyakeni engamashumi amane nambili ngemva kokuxoshwa kwami, ngabizwa futhi ukuze nginikezwe iziqu zokuhlonishwa futhi nginikeze inkulumo yokuqala. Ngakho-ke uyazi, ngezinye izikhathi -
U-AMY GOODMAN: Uxoshweni? Kungani wawu—kungani inkontileka yakho ingavuselelwanga?
U-HOWARD ZINN: Hhayi-ke, abafundi baseSpelman College bavuka kulowo moya onokuthula nokulawula ekolishi ngesikhathi sokuhlala bangena edolobheni, baboshwa, babuya bevutha futhi bezimisele ukushintsha izimo zempilo yabo esikhungweni, ezazindala kakhulu. Futhi bafana—njengendlu yezindela, ababehlala kuyo. Futhi ngakho, bavukela abaphathi. Ngabasekela ekuhlubukeni kwabo, futhi ngangingaphezu kwamandla okuphatha ekolishi.
U-AMY GOODMAN: Ngifuna ukubheka izingcaphuno zedokhumentari ezayo egqugquzelwe yi Umlando Wabantu. Kuyabizwa The People Khuluma, eqondiswe ngokubambisana no-Anthony Arnove kanye noChris Moore. Isiqephu esilandelayo sihlanganisa amazwi kaDanny Glover efunda uJohn Lewis ngesikhathi sokunyakaza kwamalungelo abantu, uMichael Ealy efunda uMalcolm X. Iqala ngomlingisi uJosh Brolin efunda impendulo kaMark Twain ngo-1906 ekuhalaliseni kukaMongameli Theodore Roosevelt kuGeneral Wood, amabutho akhe ayesanda kubulala abantu abaningi. 600 izakhamuzi zasePhilippines.
U-JOSH BROLIN: [ukufunda uMark Twain] Umbiko osemthethweni wathi kuphele ngokunqoba okuphelele kwezikhali zaseMelika, ukuthi kumaMoro angama-600, akekho noyedwa owasala ephila. Hoo-yah. Kuze kube manje njengoba ngingathola, kwakukhona umuntu oyedwa kuphela phakathi kwezigidi zethu ezingu-80 owazivumela ilungelo lokuphawula esidlangalaleni ngalesi senzakalo esikhulu, futhi lowo kwakunguMongameli wase-United States. “Ngiyakuhalalisela wena kanye nezikhulu namadoda omyalo wakho ngezikhali ezinhle kakhulu, lapho wena kanye nabo niphakamise kahle ukuhlonishwa kwefulegi laseMelika. Kusayinwe, Theodore Roosevelt.
U-HOWARD ZINN: Lapha, uMalcolm X, owaba yiqhawe esizukulwaneni sonke sabase-Afrika baseMelika ukhuluma umqondo wakhe eDetroit.
U-MICHAEL EALY: [efunda uMalcolm X] Ngiyakutshela, awazi ukuthi kuyini ukuvukela umbuso, ngoba uma uthola ukuthi kuyini, uzobuyela emgwaqeni, futhi uzophuma endleleni. Awutholanga uguquko olungabandakanyi ukuchitheka kwegazi. Futhi wesaba ukopha. Ngathi uyesaba ukopha. Kudala umlungu ekuthuma eKorea, wopha. Wakuthumela eJalimane, wopha. Ukuthumele eNingizimu yePacific ukuyolwa namaJapane, wopha. Wopha abantu abamhlophe, kodwa uma kuziwa ekuboneni amasonto akho eqhunyiswa ngamabhomu futhi kubulawa amantombazane amancane amnyama, awunalo igazi.
U-DANNY GLOVER: [efunda uJohn Lewis] Kulabo abathi, “Bekezela futhi ulinde,” kufanele sithi ukubekezela kuyigama elingcolile nelibi. Asikwazi ukubekezela. Asifuni ukukhululeka kancane kancane. Sifuna inkululeko yethu, futhi siyayifuna manje. Asikwazi ukuncika kunoma yiliphi iqembu lezepolitiki, ngoba zombili iDemocratic Party kanye ne-Republican Party zikhaphele izimiso eziyisisekelo zesiMemezelo Sokuzimela. Ngeke sime manje. Kuzofika isikhathi lapho singeke sivale amamashi ethu aya eWashington. Sizokwenza isenzo sezinyanga ezimbalwa ezedlule sibukeke sisincane. Futhi ngithi kuwe, “Vuka, Melika.”
U-AMY GOODMAN: UDanny Glover, ufunda uJohn Lewis osemusha, ukhongolose waseGeorgia. Kuthiwani ngaleyo nkulumo? Empeleni ayizange inikezwe, akunjalo?
U-HOWARD ZINN: Cha, inkulumo yanikezwa—
U-AMY GOODMAN: Ngaleyo ndlela.
U-HOWARD ZINN: - kodwa yancishiswa, yahlolwa. Izingxenye eziphikisana kakhulu zenkulumo zicasule noma zakhathaza abanye babaholi abamnyama ngoMashi eWashington.
U-AMY GOODMAN: Lena bekuyinkulumo kaDkt King yodumo ethi “I Have a Dream”, lapho ethule khona eyakhe.
U-HOWARD ZINN: Kulungile. Kulapho anikeze khona inkulumo yakhe ethi “I Have A Dream”. Futhi uJohn Lewis ubemele, niyazi, abantu abasha abathukuthele baseNingizimu kanye neKomidi Lokuxhumanisa Elingenalo Udlame Lwabafundi. Futhi inkulumo yakhe yayiyinkulumo yoguquko. Futhi-ke wawagxeka womabili amaqembu nokunye. Futhi abanye ba—yebo, kanjalo-ke, niyazi, abanye babaholi be-NAACP kanye ne-Urban League kanye nabaholi abansundu ababambelele kakhulu bathi, “Kufanele sikunqamule okunye kwalokhu.” Ngakho-ke, sizama, kudokhumentari yethu, ukubuyisa lezo zingxenye zenkulumo yakhe ezazinoguquko kakhulu futhi azinqamula kumashi yaseWashington.
U-AMY GOODMAN: Nokho, emhlanganweni weDemocratic Alliance eDenver enkundleni yezemidlalo, uJohn Lewis wahlonishwa. Ngesikhathi uMongameli Obama egcotshwa, waxhawula uJohn Lewis. Wayesesiteji esikhulu eCapitol khona lapho ngesikhathi uMongameli Obama ehla ezitebhisini. Imicabango yakho ngoMongameli Obama namuhla, umongameli wokuqala wase-Afrika waseMelika?
U-HOWARD ZINN: Ngifisa sengathi uMongameli Obama angalalelisisa uMartin Luther King. Nginesiqiniseko sokuthi uhlonipha ngamazwi, njengoba kwenza wonke umuntu, kuMartin Luther King, kodwa kufanele acabange ngaphambi kokuthi athumele imicibisholo phezu kwePakistan, ngaphambi kokuba avume lesi sabelomali sezempi esikhukhumele, ngaphambi kokuba athumele amasosha e-Afghanistan, ngaphambi kokuba aphikisane nempi. uhlelo lomkhokhi oyedwa, okhulume ngalo ngaphambilini ohlelweni lwakho. Wayefanele abuze, “UMartin Luther King wayezokwenzani? Futhi wayezothini uMartin Luther King?” Futhi ukube ubelalela uNkosi kuphela, ubezoba umongameli ohluke kakhulu kunalokhu aseyikho kuze kube manje. Ngicabanga ukuthi kufanele sibambe u-Obama esithembisweni sakhe sokuthi ahluke futhi abe nesibindi futhi enze ushintsho. Kuze kube manje, akakafezi leso sithembiso.
U-AMY GOODMAN: Ngesikhathi u-Barack Obama engenela isikhundla sokuba ngumongameli, ebuzwa ezingxoxweni ukuthi ubani ozogunyazwa yi-MLK, ubani owayezogunyaza uDkt. King, wathi, “Akekho kithina.
U-HOWARD ZINN: Yebo, lokho kuyiqiniso, ngoba iNkosi yayikholelwa-futhi lokhu kungenye yezindikimba zomlando wabantu bakithi, ukuthi awukwazi ukuncika komongameli, futhi awukwazi ukuthembela okhethweni nasekuvoteni ukuxazulula izinkinga zakho. Abantu ngokwabo, behlela, bekhombisa, bememeza, yibona kuphela abangaphusha uMongameli futhi baqhube uKhongolose ekushintsheni. Futhi yilokho okumele sikwenze manje no-Obama. Kufanele sikhombe kulokho u-Obama akusho ngesikhathi somkhankaso, lapho ethi akufanele nje siphume e-Iraq, kufanele siphume emcabangweni owasingenisa e-Iraq. U-Obama, yena, akakaphumi kulowo mqondo. Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi thina, abantu, kufanele sikhulume naye ngalokho.
U-AMY GOODMAN: Kanjani?
U-HOWARD ZINN: Hhayi-ke, laba bantu engibabone ohlelweni lwenu phambilini abebekhombisa uhlelo lwezempilo olukhokhelwa umuntu oyedwa, u-Obama umanqika kakhulu ukukuncoma, bebekwenza okufanele kwenziwe. Bebenza izenzo zokungalaleli umphakathi. Babengena emahhovisi ababetshelwe ukuthi bahambe, bangabe besaphuma. Bebenza lokho esasikwenza ngesikhathi sokulwa nempi yaseVietnam. Bebenza lokho okwakwenziwa yinhlangano yabamnyama eNingizimu. Futhi yilokhu esizokudinga. Sizodinga izenzo zokubonisa ezikhombisa iqiniso lokuthi uhulumeni wethu akaphenduli kulokho abantu abakudingayo kanye nalokho abantu abakufunayo.
U-AMY GOODMAN: Iyiphi enye indlela yokulwa ne-Afghanistan nePakistan?
U-HOWARD ZINN: Nokho, enye indlela esikhundleni sempi ukuthumela ukudla nemithi. Benginomshayeli wetekisi ovela e-Afghanistan, futhi ngihlala ngiqala ingxoxo nabashayeli bamatekisi, ngoba bazi ngaphezu kwabahlaziyi abaningi bezindaba. Futhi ngakho-hhayi wena. Angikhulumi ngawe, Amy, kunjalo. Kodwa wayengowase-Afghanistan. Ngase ngithi, “Ucabangani ngo-Obama ngokuthumela amasosha e-Afghanistan?” Angizange ngimtshele ukuthi siyini isikhundla sami. Wathi, “Asiwadingi amasosha.” Wathi, “Sidinga ukudla nemithi.”
Kufanele siyeke ukucabanga ukuthi kufanele sibe nezixazululo zezempi ezinkingeni esibhekene nazo emhlabeni. Izixazululo esizidingayo ziyizixazululo zokubhekana nokugula nezifo nendlala. Lokho kuyisisekelo. Uma ufuna ukuqeda ubuphekula—
U-AMY GOODMAN: Ngiyakutshela, usomlando omkhulu, unemizuzwana emihlanu.
U-HOWARD ZINN: Uma ufuna ukuqeda ubuphekula, kufanele uyeke ukuba amaphekula, okuyinto impi.
U-AMY GOODMAN: Howard Zinn, uzoba namuhla kusihlwa ku-92nd Street Y eNew York.
I-ZNetwork ixhaswa kuphela ngokuphana kwabafundi bayo.
Nikela