Masiku angapo apitawo boma la Israeli linavomerezanso kumanga midzi yatsopano ku West Bank. Pakali pano, andale ku European Union ndi United States amakhulupirirabe njira yothetsera mayiko awiri. Kodi izi ndi zoona bwanji pakadali pano?
Ilan Pappe: Si. Njira yothetsera mayiko awiri yakhala chiyembekezo chosatheka kuyambira 2000, ngati si kale. Chifukwa chake ndi mfundo zosatsutsika pansi, zopangidwa ndi Israeli. Madera akuluakulu a West Bank alamulidwa kale. Ndizosatheka kupanga boma kumeneko. Ichi ndi chifukwa chimodzi chomwe sichikhala chenicheni.
Chifukwa china ndi chakuti ngakhale kwa nthawi yochepa, mbali ziwirizi zidagwirizana kuti zithetse mgwirizano wa mayiko awiri, sizikanathetsa mkanganowo, chifukwa si njira yothetsera mavuto akuluakulu a Israeli ndi Palestine. Ndipo vuto lalikulu ndilakuti anthu a Palestine ndi Israeli sakhala ndi mwayi wofanana monga nzika za mayiko amenewo pakati pa mtsinje wa Yordano ndi Mediterranean.
Chigawenga cha Israeli ndi chikoloni cha Zionist atsamunda, osanenapo za kuyeretsedwa kwa mafuko komwe Israeli m'mbuyomu ndi vuto lenileni. Simungawathetse ndi njira yamayiko awiri. Mutha kuwathetsa ndi dongosolo la ndale lomwe limaletsa njira ndi malingaliro otere kuti azindikire ubale pakati pa Palestina ndi Ayuda ku Palestine wakale.
Nthawi zambiri mumapereka lingaliro la boma la mayiko awiri ngati yankho. Kodi yankho loterolo likanakhala lotani m’mikhalidwe yamakono mu Israel ndi Palestine ndipo kodi moyo ukanakhala wotani mu mkhalidwe woterowo?
Pappe: Sindikutsimikiza ngati padzakhala boma la mayiko awiri. Kaya tidzakumana ndi vuto la dziko limodzi sizidziwika. Ndikufuna dziko lademokalase. Sindikuganiza kuti ngakhale boma la mayiko awiri lingakhale yankho labwino kwambiri. Popeza kuti utundu umakhalabe wamphamvu kwambiri kumbali zonse ziwiri, komabe, ingakhale sitepe yofunikira panjira yopita ku boma la demokalase. Ndizovuta kunena kuti moyo mumkhalidwe woterewu ungawoneke bwanji. Chotsimikizika ndichakuti tikukhala kale m'dziko limodzi lomwe silikuyenera kupitiliza.
Masiku ano Israeli akulamulira Palestina wakale wakale. Anthu aku Palestina amakhala pansi pa malamulo a Israeli komanso pansi pa kuponderezedwa kosiyanasiyana. Gaza, kumene anthu atsekeredwa m’zingidwa, mwinamwake ndi malo oipitsitsa kwambiri. Zigawo zachiwiri zoipitsitsa ndizo zomwe zimatchedwa madera A ndi B ku West Bank, kumene anthu amaletsedwa ufulu uliwonse woyenda, kaya mkati kapena kunja. N’chimodzimodzinso m’dera la C, kumene anthu amatsatira mfundo zowalanda katundu. Komabe ngakhale ma Palestine omwe amakhala ku Israel komweko amatsatiridwa ndi ndondomeko za tsankho ndikulandidwa. Ili si dziko limodzi lomwe tinkatsatira. Ngakhalenso si zigawo ziwiri.
Timadziwa zomwe sitikufuna kuziwona ndipo izi ndi zofunika kwambiri. Tikudziwa kuti sitikufuna kuwona anthu aku Palestine akutaya malo ambiri. Sitikufuna kuwaona akusalidwa ndi malamulo kapena ndondomeko. Sitikufuna kuwona nyumba zawo zikugwetsedwa. Sitikufuna kuwaona ali m’ndende popanda kuzengedwa mlandu, kuthamangitsidwa kapena kuphedwa.
Ngati tiyamba ndi maufuluwa ndikuletsa zina mwazophwanya izi, tikhoza kuyamba kumanga dziko limodzi kuchokera pansi. Simuyeneranso kuyitcha njira yadziko limodzi. Mukungoyenera kuyitcha kumenyera ufulu wa Palestina. Imalungamitsidwa kumenyera ufulu. Ufuluwu ukadzatetezedwa, kuphatikizapo ufulu wa anthu othawa kwawo ku Palestina kuti abwerere, ndikuganiza kuti tidzakhala ndi lingaliro labwino la momwe anthu angakhalire ogwirizana mofanana.
Mumatchula mawu ngati "apartheid" ndi "settler colonialism". Ku Ulaya, makamaka, zimativuta kugwiritsa ntchito mawu otere tikamalankhula za nkhaniyi. Chifukwa chiyani mumatchula Israeli ngati gulu la atsamunda okhazikika?
Pappe: Zowona ndizovuta kugwiritsa ntchito mawuwa chifukwa amafotokoza chinthu chomwe Israeli adayesetsa kubisa kwa zaka zambiri. Koma ndikuganiza kuti anthu ambiri amamvetsetsa kuti izi ndi zenizeni pansi. Simunganene kuti ndi demokalase ndipo simungakane chiyambi cha Zionism. Kugwiritsa ntchito chinenero chatsopano ndi choyenera n'kovuta kuti tichotse chinenero chakale. Ndi kulimbana mwaluntha, komanso kumenya nkhondo. M'derali, osachepera, ndikuganiza kuti tikupeza zotsatira zabwino kuposa kale.
Settler colonialism inali gulu la Azungu omwe adachoka ku Europe pazifukwa zomveka. Kaya anali Ayuda kapena Akhristu, anafunika kuchoka. Iwo ankadziona ngati osatetezeka kapena ankadziona kuti ali pachiswe. Sikuti ankangofunafuna kwawo, koma ankangofuna kwawo. Ndipo monga tikudziwira kuchokera ku zochitika zomwe Zionism isanayambe ndikuyiyambitsa, anthu amtunduwu mwatsoka anali chopinga chachikulu pakuchita bwino kwa kayendetsedwe kameneka. Pankhani ya atsamunda aku North America, Australia kapena New Zealand, Azungu adachotsa mbadwazo, adapha anthu. Pankhani ya South Africa, kale Zionism isanayambe, adayambitsa tsankho ndikuyeretsa mafuko. Njira izi zinali zofanana kwambiri ndi zomwe Zionism idagwiritsa ntchito kulamulira Palestine. M'mawu amaphunziro, kutcha Zionism kukhala gulu la atsamunda okhazikika ndizotheka. Madera ambiri padziko lapansi amachokera kumagulu atsamunda atsamunda. Israeli ndi yekhayo amene akukana izi.
Ponena za tsankho, zikuwonekeratu kuchokera ku maphunziro ambiri atsopano omwe adasindikizidwa zaka khumi zapitazi. Inde, pali kusiyana pakati pa Israeli ndi South Africa, koma palinso zofanana zambiri. Mutha kuyitcha imodzi mwamitundu yambiri ya tsankho. Pali mitundu yambiri ya tsankho, koma zomwe onse ali nazo ndikukana maufulu ofanana.
M'zaka zaposachedwa, tidawonapo Arabellion m'maiko ngati Egypt, Libya kapena Syria. Kodi maganizo a Israyeli ndi otani pa kuwukira kumeneku?
Pappe: Poyamba ndikuganiza kuti Israeli anali ndi nkhawa kwambiri ndi zomwe zikuchitika m'mayiko achiarabu, makamaka pamene zinkawoneka ngati demokalase idzagwira m'mayikowa. Dziko lachiarabu la demokalase ndizovuta kwambiri ku Israeli. Choyamba, anthu angafune kuti maboma awo achitepo kanthu mwachangu pothandizira Palestine. Kachiwiri, udindo wapadera wa Israeli ku Middle East, komwe umapindulanso, udatha.
Momwe zinthu zikuwonekera tsopano, maulamuliro aulamuliro akuchulukirachulukira - tenga Egypt kapena Syria. Izi zimasewera m'manja mwa Israeli. Ikupindulanso ndi zochitika za "Islamic State", chifukwa ikugwirizana bwino ndi nkhani ya Israeli. IS ikusokoneza chidwi cha aliyense kutali ndi Palestine. Panthawi imodzimodziyo, imapatsa Israeli chifaniziro changwiro cha Islam. Chifukwa chake Israeli atha kupitiliza kudzigulitsa ngati "chikhalidwe chanzeru" m'derali, "malo omaliza" a Kumadzulo ku Middle East.
Pokumbukira zonsezi, zomwe zachitika posachedwa ku Iran ndizofunikanso. Pambuyo pa mgwirizano wa nyukiliya ndi kuchotsedwa kwa chilango, zikuwoneka kuti Ulaya ndi United States akusangalala ndi ubale wawo watsopano ndi Iran. Kodi Israyeli akusangalalanso ndi mkhalidwe watsopanowu? Netanyahu nthawi zambiri amanena kuti Iran ili pachiwopsezo chachikulu kuposa IS.
Pappe: Munthawi imeneyi, ndikuganiza kuti tiyenera kusiyanitsa pakati pa boma la Israeli ndi nzika wamba. Ambiri a Israeli samataya tulo usiku chifukwa cha Iran. Boma lakhala likuyesera kufalitsa mantha pakati pa nzika zake ndi mawu awa, koma ndi imodzi mwa nthawi zochepa zomwe sizinapambane. Mwina chifukwa mutu wa Mossad ndi anthu ena apamwamba adanena kuti palibe chowopsa kuchokera ku Iran. Akuluakulu a usilikali sankagwirizana ndi akuluakulu a ndale.
Kwenikweni, boma silikukondwera ndi mgwirizanowu chifukwa zomwe zidachitika ku Iran zinali zosokoneza bwino ku Palestine. Ndikuganiza kuti anthu onse aku Israeli ali okondwa kwambiri ndi mgwirizanowu.
Pakalipano, tikuwona kuti mayiko ambiri achi Sunni Arab akulephera kwathunthu ndikukhala osakhazikika pamene Shia Iran ndi yokhazikika. Kodi mukuganiza kuti Iran itenga gawo lalikulu m'tsogolomu pakuthana ndi vuto la Israeli ndi Palestine?
Pappe: Mwamtheradi. Zambiri zimatengera aku Iran. Sindikuganiza kuti tiwona kusintha kwakukulu malinga ngati Mtsogoleri Wapamwamba wa Iran, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, ali ndi mphamvu. Zomwe zikuchitika ku Iran zidzakhala zosangalatsa kwambiri pambuyo pa imfa yake. Ndikuganiza kuti, pakadali pano, Iran ikungosintha kamvekedwe kake pang'ono, osati mfundo zake. Zitha kukhala zothandiza kwambiri. Ku Syria ndi Iraq, komanso ku Palestine. Ndizowona kuti mayiko a Sunni Arabu alephera m'njira zambiri. Ndipo kuwukanso konse kwa mkangano womwe amati a Sunni-Shia ndi chinthu chomwe chikuseweranso m'manja mwa Israeli. Mphamvu iliyonse yokhazikika yandale yomwe ikufuna kukhazikika ku Middle East yonse komanso ikufuna kuthandiza anthu aku Palestine iyenera kuyimitsa zinthu ngati izi.
Middle East ikusintha tsiku lililonse. Munthu sanganene mmene zinthu zidzakhalire mlungu wamawa kapena mwezi wamawa. Kodi Israyeli akuchita motani ndi kusintha kofulumira kumeneku?
Pappe: Pakalipano, Israeli ali ndi ndondomeko ya ndale yowonekera bwino kwambiri. Mwayi woti boma lililonse laufulu kapena lamanzere liyambe kulamulira mu Israeli ndi lochepa kwambiri. Tiyenera kumvetsetsa kuti malingaliro anzeru a boma lomwe lilipo pano ndi la Israeli lonse. Ndipo maganizo amenewo ndi omveka bwino. Ndilo lingaliro lomwe limati kulengedwa kwa Israeli Wamkulu, dziko lamtundu, ndilofunika kwambiri kuposa kukhala ndi demokalase mu Israeli. N’kofunika kwambiri kuposa kukhala ndi ubwenzi wabwino ndi anthu a m’dzikoli. Akufunanso kuchotsa ma Palestine.
Israel imamvetsetsanso bwino lomwe kuti masiku ano ku Middle East pali anthu ena achiarabu omwe angathandizire cholingachi, bola ngati apatsidwa zomwe akufuna - malo olandirira alendo, zida kapena ndalama. Vuto lenileni la Israeli ndiloti dziko silimangopangidwa ndi ndale zachipongwe. Pali mabungwe aboma komanso mayendedwe ngati BDS (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions), pali intaneti komanso kumadzulo kuli osankhidwa. Palibe aliyense wa iwo amene amavomerezanso malamulo a Israeli. Israeli ayenera kuyang'anizana ndi mfundo izi. Mwachionekere ili ndi mphamvu zankhondo ndi zachuma kuti ipulumuke, koma sichidzakhalanso ndi chichirikizo chofunikira, ngakhale pakati pa Ayuda padziko lapansi.
Choncho akuluakulu a ndale ku Israeli ayenera kudzifunsa ngati uwu ndi mtundu wa Israeli womwe akufuna. Tsoka ilo, pakadali pano zikuwoneka kuti ndi zomwe akufuna. Choncho zili kwa dziko lonse kusintha zinthu. Chifukwa Israeli yamasiku ano ndi dziko la tsankho lomwe lidzapitiriza kuphwanya ufulu wa Palestine. Mkhalidwewu si wanthawi yochepa, ndi tsogolo. United States ndi Europe akuyenera kudzifunsa zomwe akufuna, makamaka chifukwa Israeli imamveka bwino za ndondomeko zake kuposa kale.
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