M'mafunso awa omwe nthawi zambiri amafunsidwa, katswiri wa zilankhulo komanso wothirira ndemanga pa ndale Noam Chomsky akufotokoza malingaliro omasuka pa ntchito ndi maphunziro, ponena kuti ufulu ndiye muzu wa luso komanso kukwaniritsidwa.
Michael Kasenbacher: Funso lomwe ndikufuna kufunsa ndiloti ntchito yomwe ikufunika? Mwina titha kuyamba ndi moyo wanu komanso ntchito yanu iwiri muzayankhulidwe ndi ndale? Kodi mumakonda ntchito yotere?
Noam Chomsky: Ndikadakhala ndi nthawi ndikadakhala nthawi yochulukirapo ndikugwira ntchito pachilankhulo, filosofi, sayansi yazidziwitso, mitu yomwe ili yosangalatsa kwambiri. Koma gawo lalikulu la moyo wanga limaperekedwa ku mtundu wina wa ndale: kuwerenga, kulemba, kulinganiza, kuchitapo kanthu ndi zina zotero. Zomwe zili zoyenera kuchita, ndizofunikira koma sizovuta mwanzeru. Ponena za zochitika za anthu mwina sitingamvetse kalikonse, kapena ndi zachiphamaso. Ndi ntchito yovuta kupeza deta ndi kuziyika zonse pamodzi koma sizovuta kwambiri mwanzeru. Koma ndimachita izi chifukwa ndizofunikira. Ntchito imene iyenera kukhala yofunika kwambiri pamoyo ndiyo ntchito imene mungafune kuchita ngati simunalipiridwa. Ndi ntchito yomwe imachokera ku zosowa zanu zamkati, zomwe mumakonda komanso nkhawa zanu.
Wafilosofi wina dzina lake Frithjof Bergmann ananena kuti anthu ambiri sadziwa kuti ndi zinthu zotani zimene akufuna kuchita. Amachitcha kuti 'kusauka kwa chikhumbo.' Ndimaona kuti zimenezi nโzoona ndikamalankhula ndi anzanga ambiri. Kodi mumadziwa nthawi zonse zomwe mumafuna kuchita?
Ndilo vuto lomwe sindinali nalopo - kwa ine nthawi zonse pamakhala zambiri zomwe ndimafuna kuchita. Sindikudziwa kuti izi zafalikira bwanji - tengani, tinene, mmisiri, sindikhala wabwino ndi zida, koma tengani munthu yemwe amatha kupanga zinthu, kukonza zinthu, akufunadi kuchita. Amakonda kuchita: 'ngati pali vuto ndingathe kulithetsa'. Kapena kungogwira ntchito wamba - ndizosangalatsanso. Ngati mumagwira ntchito motsatira malamulo ndiye kuti ndizovuta koma ngati muchita zomwezo mwakufuna kwanu kapena chidwi chanu ndizosangalatsa komanso zosangalatsa komanso zokopa. Ndikutanthauza kuti nโchifukwa chake anthu amafunafuna ntchito โ mwachitsanzo, ulimi wamaluwa. Chifukwa chake mwakhala ndi sabata yovuta, sabata yopuma, ana akuthamanga, mutha kungogona kuti mugone koma ndizosangalatsa kwambiri kulima dimba kapena kumanga zina kapena kuchita zina.
Ndi chidziwitso chakale, osati changa. Wilhelm von Humboldt, yemwe anachita zina mwa ntchito zosangalatsa kwambiri pa izi, nthawi ina adanena kuti ngati wamisiri apanga chinthu chokongola pa lamulo tikhoza kusirira zomwe anachita koma timapeputsa zomwe iye ali - ndi chida m'manja mwa ena. Ngati kumbali ina alenga chinthu chokongola chomwecho kuchokera mwa iye yekha, tidzasilira izo ndi iye ndipo akudzikwaniritsa yekha. Zili ngati kuphunzira kusukulu - ndikuganiza kuti tonse tikudziwa kuchokera pa zomwe takumana nazo kuti ngati muphunzira pa lamulo chifukwa muyenera kupambana mayeso mutha kuchita bwino pamayeso koma patatha milungu iwiri mwayiwala chilichonse. Kumbali ina ngati mukuchita chifukwa mukufuna kudziwa, ndikufufuza ndikulakwitsa ndikuyang'ana pamalo olakwika ndi zina zotero, ndiye kuti pamapeto pake mumakumbukira.
Ndiye mukuganiza kuti kwenikweni munthu amadziwa zomwe akufuna kuchita?
Pazifukwa zoyenera izo zikanakhala zoona. Ana mwachitsanzo mwachibadwa amakhala ndi chidwi chofuna kudziwa - amafuna kudziwa chilichonse, amafuna kufufuza chilichonse koma chomwe chimawachotsa m'mutu mwawo. Amayikidwa m'magulu owongolera, zinthu zimakonzedwa kuti azichita mwanjira zina kotero kuti zimangomenyedwa mwa inu. Ndi chifukwa chake sukulu ndi yotopetsa. Sukulu ingakhale yosangalatsa. Zinachitika kuti ndinapita kusukulu ya Deweyite mpaka pamene ndinali ndi zaka 12. Zinali zosangalatsa kwambiri, munkafuna kukakhala kumeneko, mumafuna kupita. Panalibe kusanja, kunalibe magiredi. Zinthu zidatsogozedwa kotero kuti sikumangochita chilichonse chomwe mungafune. Panali dongosolo koma mumalimbikitsidwa kuchita zomwe mukufuna komanso nkhawa zanu ndikugwira ntchito limodzi ndi ena. Kwenikweni sindinkadziwa kuti ndine wophunzira wabwino mpaka nditafika ku sekondale. Ndinapita kusukulu yasekondale komwe aliyense adasankhidwa ndipo umayenera kukafika ku koleji kuti ukhoza mayeso. Kusukulu ya pulayimale ndinali nditadumpha chaka chimodzi koma palibe amene ankasamala nazo. Chinthu chokha chimene ndinaona chinali chakuti ndinali mwana wamngโono kwambiri mโkalasimo. Koma sichinali chinthu chachikulu chimene aliyense anachilabadira. Sukulu ya sekondale inali yosiyana kwambiri - uyenera kukhala woyamba m'kalasi, osati wachiwiri. Ndipo ndi malo owononga kwambiri - amayendetsa anthu kumalo omwe simudziwa zomwe mukufuna kuchita. Zinandichitikiradi - kusukulu yasekondale ndidataya chidwi chonse. Ndikayang'ana pa kalozera waku koleji zinali zosangalatsa kwambiri - maphunziro ambiri, zinthu zabwino. Koma zinapezeka kuti kolejiyo inali ngati sukulu yasekondale yomwe yakulirakulira. Patangotha โโchaka chimodzi ndimati ndisiye sukulu ndipo zinangochitika mwangozi kuti ndikhalemo. Ndidakumana ndi membala wa faculty yemwe adandiuza kuti ndiyambe maphunziro ake a graduate kenako ndidayambanso ma graduate courses. Koma ndilibe maphunziro aukadaulo. Ichi ndichifukwa chake ndikuphunzitsa ku MIT - ndilibe ziphaso zophunzitsira ku yunivesite yophunzirira.
Koma ndi momwe maphunziro amayenera kukhalira. Kupanda kutero zitha kukhala zosokoneza kwambiri - ndimawona ndi zidzukulu zanga kapena mabwalo omwe amakhala. Pali ana omwe sadziwa zomwe akufuna kuchita kotero kuti amasuta poto, kapena amamwa, amalumphira kusukulu, kapena amalowa m'mitundu ina yonse ya makhalidwe oipa. Chifukwa ali ndi mphamvu ndi chisangalalo ndipo alibe chochita nazo. Ndizowona pano, sindikudziwa momwe zilili ku Austria[1], koma pano ngakhale lingaliro lamasewera lasintha. Ndimatha kuziwona ngakhale kumalo komwe ndimakhala. Ine ndi mkazi wanga tinasamukira kuderali chifukwa kunali koyenera kwa ana - kunalibe magalimoto ambiri, kunali nkhalango kumbuyo ndipo ana amatha kusewera mumsewu. Ana anali kunja akusewera nthawi zonse, kukwera njinga zawo zilizonse. Tsopano pali ana pafupi koma iwo sali kunja, ali mkati akuyang'ana masewera a pakompyuta kapena chinachake kapena akugwira nawo ntchito zokonzedwa: masewera akuluakulu opangidwa ndi akuluakulu kapena chinachake. Koma maganizo oti anthu azingosewera mwachisawawa akuoneka kuti achepa kwambiri. Pali maphunziro ena okhudza izi, ndawonapo ku United States ndi England, sindikudziwa ngati ndi zoona kwina kulikonse koma kusewera modzidzimutsa kwangotsika pansi pakusintha kwa chikhalidwe. Ndipo ndikuganiza kuti ndichinthu choyipa kwambiri chifukwa ndipamene malingaliro anu opanga zinthu amakula bwino. Ngati mukuyenera kupanga masewera m'misewu, ngati mumasewera mpira wa baseball ndi chogwirira cha tsache mwapeza kwinakwake komwe kuli kosiyana ndi kupita ku ligi yokonzedwa komwe muyenera kuvala yunifolomu.
Nthawi zina zimangokhala surreal - ndimakumbukira pamene mdzukulu wanga anali ndi zaka khumi ndipo anali ndi chidwi kwambiri ndi masewera, nthawi zonse ankasewera matimu a tauni. Titafika kunyumba kwa amayi ake ndipo anabwerera ali wokhumudwa kwambiri chifukwa kumayenera kukhala masewera a baseball koma timu ina yomwe ankasewera inali ndi osewera asanu ndi atatu okha. Sindikudziwa ngati mukudziwa momwe mpira umagwirira ntchito koma aliyense amakhala nthawi zonse, pali anthu pafupifupi atatu omwe amachita chilichonse, wina aliyense amakhala mozungulira. Koma timu yake sinathe kupatsa timu ina player owonjezera kuti ana asangalale chifukwa mukuyenera kutsatira malamulo a ligi. Ndikutanthauza kuti zikutengera kupusa kwenikweni koma ndi mtundu wa zinthu zomwe zikuchitika. Ndizowonanso kusukulu - luso lalikulu la maphunziro la Bush ndi Obama 'palibe mwana wosiyidwa'. Nditha kuwona zotsatira zake m'masukulu polankhula ndi aphunzitsi, makolo ndi ophunzira. Ndi maphunziro opambana mayeso ndipo aphunzitsi amawunikiridwa momwe ophunzira amachitira bwino pamayeso - ndalankhula ndi aphunzitsi omwe andiuza kuti mwana angasangalale ndi zomwe zimabwera m'kalasi ndikufuna kuzitsatira. Aphunzitsi akuyenera kuwauza kuti: 'Simungathe kutero chifukwa mudzapambana mayeso sabata yamawa'. Izi ndi zosiyana ndi maphunziro.
Kodi mukuganiza kuti zingatheke bwanji m'dera lathu, osati m'maphunziro okha, kuti anthu athane ndi dongosolo lonseli, chizolowezi choterechi kuti tilowe m'malo omwe anthu sakudziwa zomwe akufuna kuchita?
Ndikuganiza kuti ndizosiyana: chikhalidwe cha anthu chikutenga mawonekedwe omwe kupeza zomwe mukufuna kuchita ndizovuta kwambiri chifukwa moyo wanu ndi wokhazikika, wokonzekera, wolamulidwa komanso wophunzitsidwa bwino. US inali ndi maphunziro amisala oyamba (kutsogolo kwa Europe) koma ngati muyang'ana mmbuyo ku dongosolo kumapeto kwa 19.th zaka zambiri zidapangidwa kuti zisinthe alimi odziyimira pawokha kukhala ogwira ntchito m'mafakitale okhwima, ndipo maphunziro ambiri amakhalabe motero. Ndipo nthawi zina zimakhala zomveka bwino - kotero ngati simunawerengepo mungafune kuyang'ana buku lotchedwa Vuto la Demokalase - chofalitsidwa cha bungwe la trilateral Commission, omwe anali omasuka ochokera ku Ulaya, Japan ndi United States, mapiko omasuka a aluntha aluntha. Ndiko kumene boma lonse la Jimmy Carter linachokera. Bukuli linali kufotokoza nkhawa za anzeru omasuka pa zomwe zidachitika m'ma 60s. Chabwino zomwe zidachitika mu 60s ndikuti zinali zademokalase kwambiri, panali zolimbikitsa zambiri zotchuka, achinyamata omwe amayesa zinthu, kuyesa - kumatchedwa 'nthawi yamavuto'. 'Zovuta' ndizomwe zidatukuka dziko: ndipamene mumapeza ufulu wachibadwidwe, kayendetsedwe ka amayi, kukhudzidwa kwa chilengedwe, kutsutsa nkhanza. Ndipo ndi dziko lotukuka kwambiri chifukwa cha izi koma izi zidadzetsa nkhawa chifukwa anthu adasiya kulamulira. Anthu akuyenera kukhala opanda chidwi komanso osachita chidwi ndikuchita zomwe akuuzidwa ndi anthu omwe ali ndi udindo omwe akuwongolera. Ndiwo malingaliro osankhika pazandale - kuyambira omasuka kupita ku Leninists, ndi malingaliro omwewo: anthu ndi opusa kwambiri komanso mbuli kuti angachite zinthu paokha kotero kuti tipindule nawo tiyenera kuwalamulira. Ndipo malingaliro apamwamba kwambiri amenewo anali kusweka mu 60s. Ndipo bungwe lomwe linasonkhanitsa bukuli linali lokhudzidwa ndi kuyesera kukopa zomwe iwo ankazitcha 'mongamomwe mudemokalase' - kubweza anthu ku uchembere ndi kumvera kuti asakhale ndi zopinga zambiri pa mphamvu za boma ndi zina zotero. Makamaka ankadera nkhawa achinyamata. Iwo anali ndi nkhawa ndi mabungwe omwe ali ndi udindo wophunzitsa achinyamata (ndiwo mawu awo), kutanthauza kuti masukulu, mayunivesite, tchalitchi ndi zina zotero - sakugwira ntchito yawo, [achichepere] sakuphunzitsidwa mokwanira. Iwo ndi omasuka kwambiri kuti atsatire zomwe akufuna komanso nkhawa zawo ndipo muyenera kuwawongolera bwino.
Mukayang'ana m'mbuyo zomwe zikuchitika kuyambira nthawi imeneyo pakhala pali njira zambiri zomwe zakhazikitsidwa kuti zikhazikitse chilango. Tengani chinthu chophweka monga kukweza malipiro a maphunziro - ndizowona kwambiri ku US kusiyana ndi kwina kulikonse, koma ku US tuition tsopano ndi yokwera kwambiri - mbali ina imasankha zinthu m'kalasi koma kuposa pamenepo, imabweretsa ngongole. Kotero ngati mutuluka ku koleji ndi ngongole yaikulu simudzakhala omasuka kuchita zomwe mukufuna kuchita. Mwina mumafuna kukhala loya wokonda anthu koma muyenera kupita kukampani yamalamulo. Ichi ndi chowonadi chachikulu ndipo pali zina zambiri monga izo. Ndipotu nkhondo ya mankhwala osokoneza bongo inayambika makamaka chifukwa cha izi, nkhondo ya mankhwala osokoneza bongo ndi njira yolangirira, ndi njira yowonetsetsa kuti anthu akuyang'aniridwa ndipo inapangidwa mwachidwi mwanjira imeneyo ... Lingaliro la ufulu ndilowopsa kwambiri kwa iwo omwe ndili ndi mwayi wina ndi mphamvu ndipo ndikuganiza kuti zimawonekeranso mu maphunziro. Ndipo kuntchitoโฆ mwachitsanzo, pali kafukufuku wabwino kwambiri wochitidwa ndi membala wa faculty pano, yemwe adakanidwa udindo, mwatsoka, yemwe adaphunzira mosamala kwambiri kakulidwe ka zida zamakina oyendetsedwa ndi makompyuta - zomwe zidayamba kupangidwa mzaka za m'ma 1950 pansi pa usilikali komwe pafupifupi chilichonse chimachitika. โฆ
Dzina lake ndani?
David Noble. Ali ndi mabuku angapo abwino kwambiri - amodzi mwa iwo amatchedwa Mphamvu Zopanga. Zomwe anapeza zinali zoti pamene njirazi zimapangidwira panali kusankha - kaya kupanga njira kuti kulamulira kukhale m'manja mwa akatswiri amisiri kapena kulamulidwa ndi kasamalidwe. Anasankha chachiwiri, ngakhale sichinali chopindulitsa kwambiri - pamene adachita maphunziro adapeza kuti palibe phindu kwa icho koma ndizofunikira kwambiri kuti ogwira ntchito azikhala pansi pa ulamuliro kusiyana ndi kukhala ndi akatswiri amisiri omwe amayendetsa ntchito za mafakitale. Chifukwa chimodzi nโchakuti ngati maganizo amenewa afalikira posakhalitsa ogwira ntchito adzafuna zomwe zimawoneka zoonekeratu kwa iwo - kuti angotenga mafakitale ndikuchotsa mabwana omwe sachita kalikonse koma kuwalepheretsa. Ndizowopsa. Ndizo kwambiri zomwe zidatsogolera ku New Deal. Njira za New Deal zidayambika chifukwa chakuti sitiraka zidafika pamlingo woti anthu azikhala pansi, ndipo sitikirani atsala ndi mamilimita imodzi kuti anene kuti, 'Chabwino takhaliranji pano? Tiyeni tiyendetse malo'.
Ngati mubwerera ku 19th mabuku a anthu ogwira ntchito m'zaka za zana la ogwira ntchito, pakadali pano pali mabuku ambiri ogwira ntchito, pali zambiri pa [malingaliro awa]. Izi ndizambiri pomwe pano pomwe kusintha kwa mafakitale kudayamba ku United States. Anthu ogwira ntchito ankatsutsa kwambiri machitidwe a mafakitale, adanena kuti akuchotsa ufulu wawo, ufulu wawo, ufulu wawo monga mamembala a republic, kuti akuwononga chikhalidwe chawo. Iwo ankaganiza kuti antchito ayenera kukhala ndi mpherozo nโkuziyendetsa okha. Mu 19th m'zaka za zana lino, popanda chisonkhezero cha Marxism kapena malingaliro aliwonse a ku Ulaya, zinkaganiziridwa kuti ntchito ya malipiro ndi yofanana ndi ukapolo - ndizosiyana chifukwa ndi zakanthawi. Umenewu unali mawu omveka kwambiri moti inali slogan ya Republican Party. Ndipo kwa ogwira ntchito akumpoto pankhondo yapachiweniweni yomwe inali mbendera yomwe adamenyerapo - ukapolo wamalipirowo ndi woyipa ngati ukapolo. Izo zinayenera kuchotsedwa pamitu ya anthu.
Sindikuganiza kuti ili pamtunda, ndikuganiza kuti ikhoza kubwerera nthawi iliyonse. Ndikuganiza kuti zitha kubwereranso pakali pano - a Obama ali ndi makampani opanga magalimoto ndipo akutseka zogulitsa magalimoto, pomwe boma lake likupanga mgwirizano ndi Spain ndi France kuti amange njanji zapamwamba kwambiri zomwe US โโili m'mbuyo kwambiri - ndikugwiritsa ntchito feduro. zolimbikitsa ndalama kulipira izo. Posachedwapa zichitika kwa anthu ogwira ntchito ku Detroit kuti 'titha kuchita zinthuzo - tiyeni titenge fakitale ndikuchita'. Zitha kubweretsa chitsitsimutso cha mafakitale pano ndipo zitha kukhala zowopsa kwa mabanki ndi gulu la oyang'anira.
Kodi chizolowezi chanu cha ntchito ndi chiyani? Kodi mumatha bwanji kugwira ntchito motere?
Mkazi wanga anamwalira zaka zingapo zapitazo ndipo kuyambira pamenepo sindinachite kalikonse koma ntchito. Ndimawona ana anga kamodzi pakanthawi koma palibe china chilichonse. M'mbuyomo ndinkagwira ntchito mwakhama koma ndinali ndi moyo wanga kunja. Koma ndizopadera.
Kodi mumagona maola angati?
Ndimayesetsa kugona kwa maola sikisi kapena asanu ndi awiri ngati ndingathe. Ndi moyo wopenga kwambiri - kuchuluka kwa zokambirana ndi misonkhano kotero ndilibe nthawi yokwanira yomwe ndimafuna kugwira ntchito wamba chifukwa zinthu zina zimachulukana. Koma sindimakhala ndi nthawi yopuma - sindipitako. ku mafilimu kapena kupita kukadya. Koma chimenecho sichitsanzo cha kukhalapo kwamtundu uliwonse.
ZNetwork imalandira ndalama kudzera mu kuwolowa manja kwa owerenga ake.
Ndalama