AMY GOODMAN: Kuv tus qhua tom ntej rau lub sijhawm so yog Howard Zinn, yog ib tus kws sau keeb kwm zoo tshaj plaws hauv lub tebchaws. Nws txoj haujlwm classic, Ib Cov Neeg Keeb Kwm ntawm Teb Chaws Asmeskas, hloov peb txoj kev saib keeb kwm hauv Asmeskas. Thawj zaug luam tawm ib lub hlis twg ntawm ib puas xyoo dhau los, phau ntawv tau muag ntau dua ib lab luam thiab tseem muag tau ntau dua txhua xyoo.
Tom qab ua tus neeg ua haujlwm hauv nkoj thiab tom qab ntawd yog Air Force bombardier hauv Ntiaj Teb Tsov Rog II, Howard Zinn tau mus dhau los ua ib tus neeg tawm tsam thiab kev thaj yeeb nyab xeeb. Nws mus kawm ntawv qib siab raws li GI Bill, tau txais nws PhD los ntawm Columbia. Nws tau ua haujlwm nyob rau hauv kev tawm tsam pej xeem txoj cai thiab ntau qhov kev tawm tsam rau kev ncaj ncees hauv zej zog dhau ib nrab xyoo dhau los. Nws tau qhia hauv Spelman College, lub tsev kawm ntawv qib siab keeb kwm dub rau cov poj niam hauv Atlanta, raug rho tawm haujlwm rau kev tsis txaus ntseeg rau sawv cev rau cov poj niam. Tam sim no nws yog xibfwb Emeritus ntawm Boston University thiab tsis ntev los no tau txais kev qhuas los ntawm Spelman.
Howard Zinn tau txais Thomas Merton Award, Eugene V. Debs Award, Upton Sinclair Award, thiab Lannan Literary Award. Nws yog tus sau ntau phau ntawv, suav nrog Cov Neeg Keeb Kwm Keeb Kwm; xya-ntim series ntawm Radical '60s; ntau phau ntawv sau txog kev kos duab, kev ua tsov ua rog, kev nom kev tswv thiab keeb kwm; thiab cov yeeb yam Emma thiab Marx hauv Soho.
Xyoo no, cov ntaub ntawv sau tseg raws li kev ua yeeb yam nyob ntawm Howard Zinn's Ib Cov Neeg Keeb Kwm ntawm Teb Chaws Asmeskas thiab Lub suab ntawm ib haiv neeg keeb kwm ntawm Tebchaws Meskas yog thawj zaug ntawm Keeb Kwm, Keeb Kwm Channel. Nws hu ua Cov Neeg Hais Lus. Nws tau koom nrog Howard Zinn, Anthony Arnove thiab Chris Moore. Nws yuav ua yeeb yam ua yeeb yam ntev ntev txog keeb kwm ntawm lub teb chaws los ntawm cov neeg ua yeeb yam zoo li Matt Damon thiab Josh Brolin thiab Viggo Mortensen thiab Marisa Tomei thiab Don Cheadle thiab Jasmine Guy thiab Kerry Washington thiab cov kws ntaus nkauj zoo li Bruce Springsteen thiab Eddie Vedder thiab John Legend.
Zoo, Howard Zinn yog nyob rau hauv New York hnub no los tshaj tawm cov ntawv luam tawm tshiab ntawm Ib Tug Tub Hluas Ntxhais Hluas Lub Zog Hauv Tebchaws Meskas, uas yog yoog los ntawm Rebecca Stefoff. Hmo no, nws yuav nyob ntawm 92nd Street Y hauv New York ua yeeb yam ntawm kev nyeem ntawv thiab nkauj los ntawm Lub suab ntawm ib haiv neeg keeb kwm ntawm Tebchaws Meskas.
Txais tos, Howard.
HOWARD ZINN: Ua tsaug, Amy. Zoo siab tau nyob ntawm no.
AMY GOODMAN: Zoo siab tau ntsib koj nrog peb. Hauv qhov kev taw qhia ua ntej, koj muaj Eddie Vedder hu nkauj Bob Dylan, "Masters of War," ib feem ntawm -
HOWARD ZINN: Qhov ntawd yog ib feem ntawm documentary, yog, hu Dylan zaj nkauj "Masters of War." Kuv xav tias peb muaj Dylan mloog Eddie Vedder hu nkauj, thiab peb nug Bob Dylan yog nws xav hu nws. Thiab nws hais tias, “Tsis yog, qhov ntawd zoo. Cia Eddie hu nws. " Thiab yog li ntawd, peb muaj Bob Dylan hu nkauj Woody Guthrie hauv zaj yeeb yaj kiab, "Do Re Mi," ib qho ntawm Woody Guthrie cov nkauj nrov.
AMY GOODMAN: Tham txog tag nrho cov koob no thiab qhov no-Kuv txhais tau tias, qhov no tsuas yog loj hlob. Cov Tib neeg Keeb Kwm ntawm Tebchaws Meskas yog ib phau ntawv zoo kawg nkaus-zoo, vim li cas koj tsis piav txog lub tswv yim, koj txoj hauv kev rau Asmeskas keeb kwm?
HOWARD ZINN: Yog lawm. Zoo, tau kawg, lub tswv yim ntawm Ib haiv neeg keeb kwm yog mus dhau qhov uas tib neeg tau kawm hauv tsev kawm ntawv thiab qhov kuv tau kawm hauv tsev kawm lossis cov neeg feem coob kawm hauv tsev kawm ntawv, thiab qhov ntawd yog keeb kwm los ntawm qhov muag ntawm cov thawj tswj hwm thiab cov thawj coj hauv kev sib ntaus sib tua hauv Tsov Rog Tsov Rog, thiab peb xav tau lub suab. ntawm tib neeg, ntawm tib neeg, ntawm cov neeg ntxeev siab, ntawm cov neeg tawm tsam, ntawm cov poj niam, ntawm cov neeg dub, ntawm cov neeg Esxias Asmeskas, ntawm cov neeg tuaj txawv teb chaws, ntawm socialists thiab anarchists thiab cov teeb meem ntawm txhua yam. Thiab yog li ntawd, peb txiav txim siab muab tso ua ke—Anthony Arnove thiab kuv tau muab 200 cov ntaub ntawv ua ke. Xya Dab Neeg Xov Xwm pom zoo muab tso tawm. Thiab 200 cov ntaub ntawv no yog cov ntawv thiab cov cim nco txog thiab nco txog cov neeg uas tau sawv tawm tsam kev tsim.
Tam sim no, peb muaj, piv txwv li, ib tug poj niam dub rov qab los loj hlob nyob rau sab qab teb, nyob rau sab qab teb, thiab taug kev mus rau tsev kawm ntawv mus rau nws lub tsev kawm ntawv dub dub thiab yuav tsum taug kev hauv qhov chaw ua si dawb, qhov chaw nws xav taug kev-xav mus. ntawm lub viav vias, ua tsis tau vim nws tsis tuaj yeem nres hauv qhov chaw ua si dawb no. Thiab nws tau mus rau hauv tsev kawm ntawv thiab tsis kam hu nkauj "Lub Hnub Qub-Spangled Banner." Thiab lawv nug nws vim li cas. Nws hais tias, "Vim tias ntev li ntev tau kuv mus tsis tau ntawm lub viav vias no, tsis muaj kev ywj pheej thiab kev ncaj ncees rau txhua tus." Thiab yog li ntawd, peb muaj - qhov ntawd tsuas yog ib qho ntawm ntau qhov kev nyeem hauv peb phau ntawv.
Thiab nyob rau hauv no Cov Hluas Keeb Kwm hais tias peb tab tom pib hmo no ntawm 92nd Street Y, peb muaj ntau hom lus ua yeeb yam los ntawm cov neeg uas tau tawm tsam thiab tawm tsam hauv keeb kwm. Nws tsis yog - peb tsis nthuav qhia keeb kwm ntawm kev raug tsim txom; peb nthuav qhia keeb kwm ntawm cov neeg tawm tsam rov qab. Thiab peb xav muab - peb xav muab cov neeg Asmeskas keeb kwm uas qhia lawv tias nws muaj peev xwm tawm tsam rov qab, uas koj tsis tas yuav nyob ntawm Thawj Tswj Hwm thiab Congress thiab Tsev Hais Plaub Siab. Qhov tseeb, koj tau zoo dua tsis nyob ntawm lawv, vim tias lawv yuav tsis daws cov teeb meem tseem ceeb uas peb muaj hauv peb lub neej. Peb tsuas tuaj yeem ua nws tus kheej, thaum peb npaj, thaum peb ua, thaum peb tawm tsam. Thiab yog li ntawd, peb tab tom sim, yog, txhawb tib neeg los ntawm kev kawm keeb kwm uas yog qhov ua rau muaj kev tshoov siab.
AMY GOODMAN: Koj sau rau hauv qhov kev taw qhia rau Ib Tug Tub Hluas Ntxhais Hluas Lub Zog Hauv Tebchaws Meskas, “Tau xyoo dhau los, muaj qee tus neeg tau nug kuv tias: 'Koj puas xav tias koj keeb kwm, uas txawv txawv tshaj li keeb kwm ntawm Tebchaws Meskas, tsim nyog rau cov tub ntxhais hluas? Nws puas yuav tsim kev tsis txaus siab rau peb lub tebchaws? Puas yog nws tseem ceeb heev rau tsoomfwv txoj cai? Puas yog nws muaj cai tshem tawm cov neeg ua yeeb yam hauv lub tebchaws, zoo li Christopher Columbus, Andrew Jackson, Theodore Roosevelt?'
HOWARD ZINN: Yog, nws muaj tseeb tias tib neeg tau nug cov lus nug ntawd dua thiab dua. Koj puas paub, peb yuav tsum qhia cov menyuam yaus tias Columbus, uas lawv tau hais tias yog ib tus phab ej, uas Columbus tau tua cov neeg Khab thiab nyiag lawv thiab tua lawv hauv kev nrhiav kub? Peb puas yuav tsum qhia rau tib neeg tias Theodore Roosevelt, uas tau tuav los ua ib tus thawj tswj hwm zoo, yog ib tus neeg sov siab tiag tiag uas nyiam ua tub rog thiab ua kev zoo siab rau ib tus thawj coj Asmeskas uas tau tua neeg hauv Philippines? Peb puas yuav tsum qhia cov tub ntxhais hluas tias?
Thiab kuv xav tias cov lus teb yog: peb yuav tsum ncaj ncees rau cov hluas; peb yuav tsum tsis txhob dag lawv. Peb yuav tsum ncaj ncees txog keeb kwm ntawm peb lub teb chaws. Thiab peb yuav tsum tsis yog tsuas yog tshem tawm cov yeeb yaj kiab ib txwm muaj xws li Andrew Jackson thiab Theodore Roosevelt, tab sis peb yuav tsum tau muab cov tub ntxhais hluas ua lwm tus heroes.
Hloov ntawm Theodore Roosevelt, qhia lawv txog Mark Twain. Mark Twain—zoo, Mark Twain, txhua leej txhua tus paub txog raws li tus sau Tom Sawyer thiab Huckleberry Finn, tab sis thaum peb mus kawm ntawv, peb tsis kawm txog Mark Twain ua tus lwm thawj ntawm Pawg Neeg Tiv Thaiv-Imperialist League. Peb tsis tau hais tias Mark Twain tsis lees paub Theodore Roosevelt rau kev pom zoo rau kev tua neeg tua neeg hauv tebchaws Philippines. Tsis muaj.
Peb xav muab cov tub ntxhais hluas cov duab zoo li Helen Keller. Thiab kuv nco qab kawm txog Helen Keller. Txhua leej txhua tus paub txog Helen Keller, koj paub, tus neeg xiam oob khab uas kov yeej nws qhov kev xiam oob khab thiab muaj npe nrov. Tab sis tib neeg tsis kawm hauv tsev kawm ntawv thiab cov tub ntxhais hluas tsis kawm hauv tsev kawm qhov peb xav kom lawv kawm thaum peb ua phau ntawv zoo li Ib Tug Tub Hluas Ntxhais Hluas Lub Zog Hauv Tebchaws Meskas, hais tias Helen Keller yog ib tug socialist. Nws yog ib tug neeg ua haujlwm ua haujlwm. Nws tsis kam hla ib txoj kab picket uas tab tom xaiv lub theatre uas qhia txog kev ua si ntawm nws.
Thiab yog li ntawd, muaj cov alternate heroes hauv keeb kwm Asmeskas. Muaj Fannie Lou Hamer thiab Bob Mauxes. Lawv yog tus phab ej ntawm txoj cai lij choj. Muaj ntau tus neeg tsis paub qab hau, leej twg tsis paub. Peb muaj nyob rau hauv no Cov Hluas Keeb Kwm, peb muaj ib tug tub hluas uas zaum saum lub npav hauv Montgomery, Alabama, tsis kam tawm ntawm lub tsheb npav pem hauv ntej. Thiab qhov ntawd yog ua ntej Rosa Parks. Kuv txhais tau tias, Rosa Parks yog qhov muaj npe nrov vim tsis kam tawm ntawm nws lub rooj, thiab nws tau raug ntes, thiab qhov ntawd yog qhov pib ntawm Montgomery Bus Boycott thiab yeej yog qhov pib ntawm kev txav mus rau sab qab teb. Tab sis tus ntxhais hnub nyoog kaum tsib xyoo no ua ntej. Thiab yog li ntawd, peb muaj ntau yam—peb tab tom sim coj ntau tus neeg tsis paub qab hau no rov qab los rau hauv pem hauv ntej ntawm peb cov kev xav thiab txhawb cov tub ntxhais hluas hais tias, "Qhov no yog txoj kev ua neej."
AMY GOODMAN: Howard, peb yuav tawg thiab rov qab los. Tab sis qhov so yog ib feem ntawm kev ua haujlwm ntawm Cov Neeg Hais Lus. Howard Zinn yog peb tus qhua, tus kws sau keeb kwm qub. Phau ntawv tshiab, Ib Tug Tub Hluas Ntxhais Hluas Lub Zog Hauv Tebchaws Meskas. Nyob nrog peb.
[tawg]
AMY GOODMAN: Black Crowes 'Chris thiab Rich Robinson, hu nkauj Neil Young zaj nkauj "Ohio" txog qhov tshwm sim rau lub Tsib Hlis 4, 1970, Kent State tua. Thiab kuv yaum koj mus rau peb lub vev xaib ntawm democracynow.org hnov Alan thiab Chic Canfora. Alan raug tua hnub ntawd. Thaum peb nyob ntawm peb qhov kev ncig xyuas "Lub Zej Zog Zej Zog, Zej Zog Media", peb tau hais rau nws hauv tsev kawm ntawv hauv Kent State.
Thiab tag kis, Tsib Hlis 14, yog hnub tseem ceeb ntawm Jackson State College, tam sim no Jackson State University, kev tua nyob rau hauv Jackson, Mississippi, qhov twg cov tub rog tau tua ob tug tub ntxhais kawm, uas ib qho tsis tshua nco qab.
Peb cov qhua hnub no yog Howard Zinn, tus kws sau keeb kwm yav dhau los, tau sau Ib Cov Neeg Keeb Kwm ntawm Teb Chaws Asmeskas. Thiab tam sim no muaj tag nrho cov kev hloov pauv no. Niaj hnub no, nws tab tom pib Ib Tug Tub Hluas Ntxhais Hluas Lub Zog Hauv Tebchaws Meskas, uas yog yoog los ntawm Rebecca Stefoff.
Tab sis koj yog ib tug zoo chronicler ntawm pej xeem txoj cai txav. Jackson State tsis zoo li Kent State.
HOWARD ZINN: Yog, zoo, nws yog ib qho tseem ceeb heev hauv keeb kwm tsis quav ntsej tej yam uas tshwm sim rau cov neeg dub. Thiab, tau kawg, Kent State tua yog ib qho xwm txheej txaus ntshai thiab txaus ntshai thiab tsim nyog yuav tsum nco ntsoov tias yog ib qho ntawm cov kev txaj muag hauv keeb kwm Asmeskas. Tab sis cov xov xwm feem ntau tsom rau qee yam thiab tsis yog rau lwm tus, thiab cov xov xwm tsis tsom mus rau lwm qhov kev tua uas tshwm sim hauv Jackson State, qhov twg ob tug tub hluas dub raug tua. Thiab yog li ntawd, yog, kuv xav tias peb txoj hauj lwm ua keeb kwm yog coj tawm tej yam uas peb tsis tau txais ib txwm nyob hauv peb zaj lus qhia keeb kwm.
AMY GOODMAN: Los yog Lub Ob Hlis 8th, 1968, Orangeburg Massacre hauv South Carolina, cov tub ntxhais kawm tawm tsam. Thiab kuv xav tsis thoob los saib Barack Obama, koj paub, pluag li nws qhov kev ua si bowling. Tab sis qhov tseeb, nws tu siab nyob rau hauv lub tebchaws no tias nws yog ib qho kev tawg uas pom ib tug txiv neej African American bowling, vim hais tias cov menyuam yaus no, thaum Lub Ob Hlis Ntuj xyoo 1968, tawm tsam kev sib cais ntawm ib qho chaw bowling, thiab cov tub rog tau qhib hluav taws.
HOWARD ZINN: Yog.
AMY GOODMAN: Tub ceev xwm qhib hluav taws. Peb tuag.
HOWARD ZINN: Yog lawm. Thiab, zoo, koj paub, nws tsis yog txog thaum kuv mus rau sab qab teb los qhia hauv tsev kawm qib siab dub uas kuv, kuv tus kheej, tau paub txog keeb kwm dub uas tau tso tawm ntawm peb cov ntawv keeb kwm. Thiab kuv tau mus kawm tiav tsev kawm ntawv hauv Columbia University, thiab kuv kawm tau tsawg heev txog keeb kwm dub. W.E.B Du Bois tsis nyob hauv peb daim ntawv nyeem. Muaj tiag tiag tsis muaj keeb kwm dub ntawm peb cov ntawv nyeem. Tab sis thaum kuv tuaj rau sab qab teb thiab nkag mus rau hauv lub zej zog dub, thiab kuv pib nyeem cov keeb kwm dub no.
Kuv txhais tau hais tias, piv txwv li, kuv nyeem ib tus neeg sau keeb kwm hu ua Rayford Logan, uas tau muab keeb kwm ntawm lub sijhawm thaum ntxov ntawm lub xyoo pua nees nkaum, uas nyob rau hauv cov kev kawm keeb kwm Asmeskas yog hu ua Progressive Era. Txoj Kev Txhim Kho. Nws tau taw qhia tias nyob rau hauv lub npe hu ua Progressive Era, ntau cov neeg dub tau raug lynched dua li lwm lub sijhawm hauv keeb kwm Asmeskas. Yog li ntawd, qhov kev tsis sib haum xeeb ntawm peb keeb kwm uas tshwm sim thaum peb ua nws los ntawm haiv neeg, xim kab.
AMY GOODMAN: Alice Walker tham txog koj uas yog ib tus kws qhia zoo ntawm Spelman. Tab sis koj raug ncaws tawm ntawm Spelman, txawm hais tias koj tsis ntev los no tau txais kev qhuas nyob ntawd.
HOWARD ZINN: Zoo, cia peb tsis txhob siv lo lus "khiav tawm."
AMY GOODMAN: Aw, excuse me.
HOWARD ZINN: Hauv ntiaj teb kev kawm, peb muaj cov ntsiab lus coj zoo: "Nws daim ntawv cog lus tsis tau txuas ntxiv dua."
AMY GOODMAN: Raug rho tawm thiab tshem tawm.
HOWARD ZINN: Yog, raug rho tawm haujlwm thiab tshem tawm. Tab sis, raws li koj tau taw qhia ua ntej, plaub caug-ob xyoos tom qab kuv raug rho tawm haujlwm, kuv tau raug hu rov qab kom tau txais daim ntawv pov thawj zoo thiab hais lus pib. Yog li, koj paub, qee zaum -
AMY GOODMAN: Vim li cas koj thiaj raug ncaws tawm? Vim li cas koj - yog vim li cas koj daim ntawv cog lus tsis txuas ntxiv?
HOWARD ZINN: Zoo, cov tub ntxhais kawm ntawm Spelman College tau sawv tawm ntawm qhov chaw nyob ntsiag to thiab tswj hwm hauv tsev kawm qib siab thaum lub sijhawm zaum thiab mus rau hauv nroog, raug ntes, lawv rov qab raug rho tawm haujlwm thiab txiav txim siab hloov cov xwm txheej ntawm lawv lub neej hauv tsev kawm ntawv, uas yog heev, heev antiquated. Thiab lawv zoo li ib tug txiv plig, lawv nyob hauv. Thiab yog li ntawd, lawv tau tawm tsam kev tswj hwm. Kuv txhawb lawv hauv lawv txoj kev ntxeev siab, thiab kuv tau dhau mus rau kev tswj hwm ntawm tsev kawm qib siab.
AMY GOODMAN: Kuv xav tig mus rau excerpts los ntawm yav tom ntej documentary tshwm sim los ntawm Neeg Keeb KwmCov. Nws hu ua Cov Neeg Hais Lus, co-directed nrog Anthony Arnove thiab Chris Moore. Cov lus hauv qab no suav nrog cov suab ntawm Danny Glover nyeem John Lewis thaum lub sijhawm pej xeem txoj cai txav, Michael Ealy nyeem Malcolm X. Nws pib nrog tus neeg ua yeeb yam Josh Brolin nyeem Mark Twain cov lus teb rau xyoo 1906 rau Thawj Tswj Hwm Theodore Roosevelt ua kev zoo siab rau General Wood, uas nws cov tub rog tau tua neeg xwb. 600 tus neeg nyob hauv Philippines.
JOSH BROLIN: [nyeem Mark Twain] Daim ntawv tshaj tawm txoj haujlwm tau hais tias nws tau xaus nrog kev yeej ntawm Asmeskas caj npab, uas ntawm 600 Moros, tsis muaj ib tug tau ciaj sia. Hlo-yah. Raws li kuv tuaj yeem pom, tsuas muaj ib tus neeg ntawm peb 80 lab tus tib neeg uas tau tso cai rau nws tus kheej muaj cai hais tawm rau pej xeem rau lub sijhawm zoo no, thiab qhov ntawd yog Thawj Tswj Hwm Tebchaws Meskas. "Kuv ua kev zoo siab rau koj thiab cov tub ceev xwm thiab cov txiv neej ntawm koj cov lus txib raws li kev ua tau zoo ntawm caj npab, qhov chaw koj thiab lawv tau tuav lub meej mom ntawm Asmeskas tus chij. Kos npe, Theodore Roosevelt. "
HOWARD ZINN: Ntawm no, Malcolm X, uas tau los ua ib tug hero rau tag nrho cov neeg Asmeskas cov neeg Asmeskas hais lus nws lub siab hauv Detroit.
MICHAEL EALY: [nyeem Malcolm X] Kuv qhia rau koj, koj tsis paub tias qhov kev hloov pauv yog dab tsi, vim tias thaum koj pom tias nws yog dab tsi, koj yuav rov qab rau hauv txoj kev, thiab koj yuav tawm ntawm txoj kev. Koj tsis tau muaj lub kiv puag ncig uas tsis cuam tshuam txog ntshav. Thiab koj ntshai los ntshav. Kuv hais tias koj ntshai los ntshav. Ntev npaum li tus txiv neej dawb xa koj mus rau Kauslim, koj los ntshav. Nws xa koj mus rau lub teb chaws Yelemees, koj los ntshav. Nws xa koj mus rau South Pacific mus tua cov Nyiv, koj los ntshav. Koj los ntshav rau cov neeg dawb, tab sis thaum pom koj tus kheej lub tsev teev ntuj raug foob thiab cov ntxhais dub raug tua, koj tsis tau ntshav.
Danny GLOVER: [nyeem John Lewis] Rau cov uas hais tias, “Cia li ua siab ntev tos,” peb yuav tsum hais tias kev ua siab ntev yog lo lus qias neeg thiab phem. Peb ua siab ntev tsis tau. Peb tsis xav kom muaj kev ywj pheej maj mam. Peb xav tau peb txoj kev ywj pheej, thiab peb xav tau tam sim no. Peb tsis tuaj yeem nyob ntawm ib tog nom tswv, rau ob tog Democratic thiab Republican tau ntxeev siab rau cov ntsiab lus tseem ceeb ntawm Kev Tshaj Tawm Kev ywj pheej. Peb yuav tsis tso tseg tam sim no. Lub sijhawm yuav los thaum peb yuav tsis txwv peb txoj kev taug kev mus rau Washington. Peb yuav ua kom qhov kev txiav txim ntawm ob peb lub hlis dhau los zoo li me me. Thiab kuv hais rau koj, "Wake up, America."
AMY GOODMAN: Danny Glover, nyeem ib tug hluas John Lewis, tus neeg sawv cev ntawm Georgia. Yuav ua li cas hais lus? Nws yeej tsis tau muab, puas yog?
HOWARD ZINN: Tsis yog, cov lus tau muab -
AMY GOODMAN: Ua li ntawd.
HOWARD ZINN: -tab sis nws tau raug txiav, nws tau censored. Cov tub rog feem ntau ntawm cov lus hais tawm tsam lossis txhawj xeeb qee tus thawj coj dub hauv lub Peb Hlis ntawm Washington.
AMY GOODMAN: Qhov no yog Dr. King lub npe hu ua "Kuv Muaj Npau Suav", uas nws tau xa nws.
HOWARD ZINN: Yog lawm. Qhov ntawd yog qhov uas nws tau hais nws "Kuv Muaj Npau Suav". Thiab John Lewis tau sawv cev, koj paub, cov tub ntxhais hluas npau taws ntawm Sab Qab Teb thiab Pawg Neeg Saib Xyuas Kev Ua Phem Tsis Ncaj Ncees. Thiab nws cov lus yog ib tug ntau revolutionary hais lus. Thiab ntawm chav kawm nws denounced ob tog thiab hais txog. Thiab qee qhov - yog, thiab yog li ntawd, koj paub, qee tus thawj coj ntawm NAACP thiab Pab Koomtes Hauv Nroog thiab cov thawj coj dub tau hais tias, "Peb yuav tsum txiav qee qhov no." Yog li, peb tab tom sim, hauv peb cov ntaub ntawv sau tseg, kom coj rov qab cov seem ntawm nws cov lus uas tau hloov pauv ntau tshaj plaws thiab uas lawv tau txiav tawm ntawm Washington lub peb hlis ntuj.
AMY GOODMAN: Zoo, ntawm lub rooj sib tham Democratic hauv Denver ntawm lub chaw ntau pob, John Lewis tau qhuas. Thaum Thawj Tswj Hwm Obama tau pib, nws tuav John Lewis txhais tes. Nws nyob rau theem tseem ceeb ntawm Capitol txoj cai ntawd thaum Thawj Tswj Hwm Obama tau nqis los rau hauv cov kauj ruam. Koj xav txog Thawj Tswj Hwm Obama hnub no, thawj African Asmeskas tus thawj tswj hwm?
HOWARD ZINN: Kuv xav kom Thawj Tswj Hwm Obama yuav ua tib zoo mloog Martin Luther King. Kuv paub tseeb tias nws tau hais lus qhuas, zoo li txhua tus ua, rau Martin Luther King, tab sis nws yuav tsum xav ua ntej nws xa cov foob pob hluav taws hla Pakistan, ua ntej nws pom zoo rau cov nyiaj pab tub rog no, ua ntej nws xa tub rog mus rau Afghanistan, ua ntej nws tawm tsam cov ib leeg-them system, uas koj tau tham txog ua ntej hauv koj qhov kev pab cuam. Nws yuav tsum nug, “Martin Luther King yuav ua li cas? Thiab Martin Luther King yuav hais li cas?” Thiab yog tias nws tsuas yog mloog Vaj Ntxwv, nws yuav yog tus thawj tswj hwm sib txawv dua li nws tau hloov mus rau tam sim no. Kuv xav tias peb yuav tsum tuav Obama rau nws cov lus cog tseg kom sib txawv thiab ua siab tawv thiab hloov pauv. Txog tam sim no, nws tsis tau dhau los ntawm qhov kev cog lus ntawd.
AMY GOODMAN: Thaum Barack Obama tab tom ua tus thawj tswj hwm, nug hauv kev sib cav uas yuav MLK pom zoo, leej twg yuav Dr. King pom zoo, nws hais tias, "Tsis muaj leej twg ntawm peb."
HOWARD ZINN: Yog lawm, qhov ntawd yog qhov tseeb, vim Vaj Ntxwv ntseeg - thiab qhov no yog ib qho ntawm cov ntsiab lus ntawm peb cov neeg keeb kwm, yog tias koj tsis tuaj yeem nyob ntawm tus thawj tswj hwm, thiab koj tsis tuaj yeem nyob ntawm kev xaiv tsa thiab pov npav los daws koj cov teeb meem. Tib neeg lawv tus kheej, npaj, ua qauv qhia, tawm tsam, lawv tsuas yog cov uas tuaj yeem thawb Thawj Tswj Hwm thiab thawb Congress kom hloov pauv. Thiab qhov ntawd yog qhov peb yuav tsum ua tam sim no nrog Obama. Peb yuav tsum taw tes rau qhov uas Obama tau hais hauv kev sib tw, thaum nws hais tias peb tsis yog yuav tsum tawm ntawm Iraq xwb, peb yuav tsum tawm ntawm lub siab uas coj peb mus rau Iraq. Obama, nws tus kheej, tseem tsis tau tawm ntawm qhov kev xav no. Thiab kuv xav tias peb, cov neeg, yuav tsum hais lus rau nws txog qhov ntawd.
AMY GOODMAN: Yuav ua li cas?
HOWARD ZINN: Zoo, cov neeg no uas kuv tau pom ntawm koj qhov kev pabcuam ua ntej uas tau ua qauv qhia rau ib tus neeg them nyiaj noj qab haus huv, uas Obama tsis txaus siab rau kev pom zoo, lawv tau ua qhov yuav tsum tau ua. Lawv tau ua phem rau pej xeem tsis mloog lus. Lawv mus rau hauv chaw ua haujlwm uas lawv tau hais kom tawm mus, thiab lawv tsis tawm mus. Lawv tau ua li peb tau ua thaum lub sijhawm tawm tsam kev tsov rog hauv Nyab Laj. Lawv tab tom ua qhov kev tawm tsam dub tau ua nyob rau sab qab teb. Thiab qhov no yog qhov peb yuav xav tau. Peb yuav xav tau kev ua yeeb yam uas ua rau qhov tseeb tias peb tsoom fwv tsis ua raws li cov neeg xav tau thiab cov neeg xav tau.
AMY GOODMAN: Dab tsi yog lwm txoj hauv kev ua tsov rog nrog Afghanistan thiab Pakistan?
HOWARD ZINN: Zoo, lwm txoj hauv kev ua rog yog xa zaub mov thiab tshuaj. Kuv tau nrog tus tsav tsheb tavxij los ntawm Afghanistan, thiab kuv ib txwm pib sib tham nrog cov neeg tsav tsheb tavxij, vim lawv paub ntau dua li cov neeg tshaj xov xwm tshaj tawm. Thiab yog li ntawd - tsis yog koj. Kuv tsis tham txog koj, Amy, tau kawg. Tab sis nws yog los ntawm Afghanistan. Thiab kuv hais tias, "Koj xav li cas txog Obama xa cov tub rog ntxiv rau Afghanistan?" Kuv tsis tau qhia nws tias kuv txoj haujlwm yog dab tsi. Nws hais tias, "Peb tsis xav tau tub rog." Nws hais tias, "Peb xav tau zaub mov thiab tshuaj."
Peb yuav tsum tsis txhob xav tias peb yuav tsum muaj kev ua tub rog rau cov teeb meem uas peb ntsib hauv ntiaj teb. Cov kev daws teeb meem uas peb xav tau yog cov kev daws teeb meem ntawm kev kho mob thiab kab mob thiab kev tshaib kev nqhis. Qhov ntawd yog qhov tseem ceeb. Yog tias koj xav kom xaus kev ua phem -
AMY GOODMAN: Kuv hais rau koj, tus kws sau keeb kwm zoo, koj muaj tsib feeb.
HOWARD ZINN: Yog tias koj xav kom xaus kev ua phem, koj yuav tsum tsum tsis txhob ua neeg phem, uas yog kev tsov kev rog.
AMY GOODMAN: Howard Zinn, nws yuav nyob hmo no ntawm 92nd Street Y hauv New York.
ZNetwork tau txais nyiaj tsuas yog los ntawm kev ua siab zoo ntawm nws cov neeg nyeem.
Pab Nyiaj