In a special episode of Police Accountability Report, TRNN reporters Taya Graham and Stephen Janis report from the ground in Atlanta, where for weeks forest defenders have been fighting and risking their lives to stop the construction of “Cop City”—a massive planned police training center that would be used to instruct officers from around the country in deadly repression tactics. Speaking directly with activists on the frontlines, Graham and Janis explore the truth behind the police killing of Manuel “Tortuguita” Tehran, and the dark money sources funding the creation of the Atlanta Public Safety Center. This episode features special guests including cop watcher and auditor Lackluster, and Chris Reiter from the For Public Safety YouTube channel.

Studio: David Hebden, Cameron Granadino
Footage: Stephen Janis and Taya Graham

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Transcript

Well, hello there. My name is Taya Graham and welcome to the Police Accountability Report livestream. This is the port of our show where we don’t just hold bad police accountable, but bring other important voices into the conversation to help us. It’s also an opportunity to reveal to you in real time the so-called system that makes bad policing possible. And today, we have a special show for you with not just great guests, but some on-the-ground investigative reporting we’ve been doing over the past few weeks. A story we think is a telling example of how policing and equality and a lack of transparency all meet at the intersection at the corner of excessive punishment and often despair, but don’t lose hope because there are people who are fighting back, and I’m talking about activists, alternative journalists, and people who care about building a stronger community for all of us.

But there is also a strong and vibrant collection of YouTubers and cop watchers who believe that your rights are worth fighting for. And that’s why the theme of tonight’s show is, Is America Becoming Cop City? That’s why it’s got a question mark because within the struggle, there is hope and we don’t want you to forget that. But before I get to the gist of tonight’s show, I want to introduce my reporting partner, Stephen Janis, who, once again, despite my contention he belongs outside, he’s managed to work his way back into the studio. Stephen, welcome to the inside of TRNN Studio.

Stephen Janis:

It’s so amazing because I spend so little time in the studio that when I come in here, I feel like I have to get to know everybody, introduce myself to a staff and some of our support staff like people who work in the studio. They don’t even know me.

Taya Graham:

Yeah.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah. They don’t know who I am.

Taya Graham:

Didn’t they ask you for ID?

Stephen Janis:

Yeah, they do. They asked me for ID. They wouldn’t let me in. I kept knocking on the door.

Taya Graham:

Did they let you stand on your right so?

Stephen Janis:

It’s ridiculous. How can people not know who I am? But anyway, I do appreciate it, you letting me back inside, for a little bit. I hope the people that watch the show, I need support. Tell them please post comments, Stephen.

Taya Graham:

Oh, Christopher said to let you inside so you get one.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah. That’s it?

Taya Graham:

If you get 20.

Stephen Janis:

If I get 20.

Taya Graham:

If you get 20.

Stephen Janis:

Can I stay inside tonight, at least? No? Okay.

Taya Graham:

I’ll think about it.

Stephen Janis:

Well, anyway, I am very happy and appreciative. And I’m appreciative that we have people.

Taya Graham:

Joe Black said, “Kick him out.”

Stephen Janis:

What?

Taya Graham:

And so did Catman. Thank you, gentlemen.

Stephen Janis:

Okay. Well, I guess we know what’s going to happen when the show’s over.

Taya Graham:

The people have spoken.

Stephen Janis:

Okay. So I’m just going to enjoy it while it lasts. And I do like … So it’s nice and warm in here and I’m very appreciative. So thank you.

Taya Graham:

Oh.

Stephen Janis:

Thank you.

Taya Graham:

Oh, Katie Kane said he needs a name tag.

Stephen Janis:

Oh my God. Is it that bad? Okay.

Taya Graham:

Just for next time.

Stephen Janis:

Well-

Taya Graham:

Oh my God. Otto says #OutsideStephen. I love it. I love it.

Stephen Janis:

Well, this … Okay, great. All right. Thank you, everyone. I appreciate it.

Taya Graham:

I hate Cajun Randy. So I just also wanted to add, before we get to tonight’s report, that we are still in the middle of a fundraiser that has a specific goal and that’s making sure Stephen has what he needs to stay …

Stephen Janis:

Exactly.

Taya Graham:

… outside this summer.

Stephen Janis:

If you guys are going to kick me out, you’re going to have to support me.

Taya Graham:

He’s probably going to be an umbrella, tent, maybe a reusable water bottle.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

And he might need a microphone. So if you can, please hit the donate button below. You know we don’t take corporate dollars or ads or money or from the government or any of the other institutions that we would hold accountable, which means we only answer to you, our audience. And, of course, if you like a little bit of behind the scenes with me, you can go to our Patreon at accountability reports because I always have a few extra treats there for my patrons. And at the end of this show, I will be thanking each and every patron, past and present, because we support you and appreciate your support, whether you can only give once or every month. So also, this show is very much live. So please be patient with us if we have any technical difficulties and I will try to get your comments and questions on the screen as we go.

Okay. Now, we’ve gotten that out of the way. So as you may or may not know, Stephen and I spent several days in Atlanta, Georgia to report on a story that has gotten a lot of attention, but we think has been somewhat misreported by the mainstream media, to say the least. It’s a proposed police training center called Cop City, a plan to build a $90 million facility and it’s 380 acres, and it would train cops in urban combat, high speed chases, how to repel up and down the wall. I’m not kidding. David, can you put up clip one of the Cop City map? Thank you. So as you can see on the map I’m showing you now, this training center is going to be expansive with classrooms and auditorium for screenings and housing for cops to stay in while they’re on onsite to learn how to police us with even more aggressive tactics that certainly seem far removed from community style policing.

But beside the disturbing emphasis on militarized policing and punishment, it’s how and why this plan came together and what it’ll mean for communities that surround it that is even more problematic. And that’s why tonight, we are going to take you on a journey, so to speak, a trip down the path that has led us into a world where Cop City is not just possible but probable, a place where the need for affordable housing, good jobs, and freedom from surveillance has been eclipsed by the American addiction to law enforcement. And, of course, a prime example of why our national obsession with law enforcement can have and will continue to have unintended consequences, not just on the health of our community, but on the psyches of people as well.

Stephen, can you share a little bit about how we’ll be approaching this topic and how it’s going to be a little bit different than the way our mainstream media friends are taking a look at it?

Stephen Janis:

Well, because we’re going to be critical of what I would like to call the core imperative of policing in this country, which is something important, it’s important to make a distinction here because, in some ways, we take a look at Cop City as an inevitability, the fact that Cop City is just going to happen no matter what. The policing has to be constituted the way it is no matter what happens. What we want to do is declaw that and unearth the actual imperatives that drive that, the ideas of policing, the ideas of what policing means, of how it’s supposed to function and how it often doesn’t function, and how policing affects us in the way we think about what we deserve, what kind of community we should have. Because when we’re in Atlanta, as you’ll talk about, we uncovered a lot of stuff about the way the community it looks at itself and the way the community views Cop City that I think the mainstream media misses in a lot of ways because there’s a power to policing that is unseen to a certain extent.

It’s a psychological power. And I think tonight, not just going through Cop City, but when we talk to our guests who have police channels, we will see that because we see on the show. I mean, the one thing I think we want to talk to our guests about is, how much pain policing generates in the community.

Taya Graham:

Yes.

Stephen Janis:

How many people email us and how many people send us messages on Facebook, how many things we can’t get to. And-

Taya Graham:

I know. It’s actually really painful to see all those messages and not be able to help every single person that reaches out to us.

Stephen Janis:

And there was a lot of verisimilitude between what we see with our channel and what we saw in Cop City in the way people were pained about what they were going to do to Atlanta, and they wanted to be heard and they were not, or otherwise branded as terrorists or otherwise branded as troublemakers. And I think that’s really important to uncover that and to expose it and to say, “Look, this is painful for the people of Atlanta,” and I think the two guests we have will be able to even elaborate on that more. So I think that’s part of it. Yeah.

Taya Graham:

Well, to help us take this investigative excursion, we’re also going to be joined by several guests who are on the front lines of this fight for a world where the police, excuse me, where the people take priority over police and not the other way around. They are guests who have watched our show and they have their own YouTube channels as well, regular citizens who are fighting back for their rights and sharing their stories and what that means for all of us.

So first, we’ll be joined by a YouTuber, who I am sure you all know. His name is LackLuster and he has one of the most popular channels on YouTube that gets millions of views doing incredible coverage of police malfeasance. Then we’ll be speaking to Chris Reiter, who also has a channel for public safety, and he was a guest on our show a few weeks ago. If you recall, we showed this video of a raid on Reiter’s house that was not just illegal but life-altering for him and Tiffany. And we will be talking to him about what he believes needs to be done to counter the overarching problem of policing, which he has witnessed firsthand.

But first, I want to return to the theme of the show we discussed at the top, that is the deeper meaning of Cop City in the future. It portends for both law enforcement and for us. So one of the things I noticed when we arrived in Atlanta was a phenomena I have seen many times before, as I’ve reported across the country. On the one hand, you have a city with gleaming towers and high price condos, and on the other hand, struggling neighborhoods that have obviously been neglected or even forgotten. But what struck me about this contrast was not just how stark it was, but also how this divide was represented in the very idea of Cop City, how the Atlanta business elite had pretty much rallied around the notion to spend 90 million on a training center while ignoring more pressing concerns raised by neglected communities in favor of this expansive plan to train cops, for lack of a better term, to be soldiers.

Stephen, can you talk a little bit about what we saw and why we think Cop City is not just about a police training facility?

Stephen Janis:

Yeah. We saw that probably more lesser than I’ve seen in any example, although there are a lot, that policing is placed and situated in the divide between the haves and the have nots. And it is a way to mitigate the effects of inequality because we saw in Atlanta, like you said, a shining city with beautiful condos for $700,000, and we saw neighborhoods neglected, and we saw basically a concrete palace, and they’re going to tear down a forest. So this idea of Cop City is in some ways very similar to the idea of policing we see in many communities, both rural and urban. It is the wall between the people who have everything they need and the people who don’t. But it becomes a psychological wall that changes the people who say, “I don’t want this,” into people who are either troublemakers or don’t matter. And I think you could see, you could just feel it in the activist, in the way it was constituted that this idea was only meant to further that. And we’ll talk a little bit about that as we go on.

Taya Graham:

Stephen, that is such a good point.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

And one of the things that stood out to me is some of the companies that were mentioned …

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

… there was Merrill Lynch, J.P. Morgan, Home Depot.

Stephen Janis:

Coca-Co, yeah

Taya Graham:

Equifax, Wells Fargo, I mean, so many others. And their interest in helping build the Atlanta police training facility, as well as putting up those surveillance cameras, seem particularly uniquely focused.

Stephen Janis:

Well, it’s interesting because you have here the capitulation of some sense in the way you have capitalism, some of the biggest names in capitalism, some of the biggest companies lined up on the one side secretly, and this is important, secretly funding this Cop City. And you have the other side, activists who don’t have millions of dollars, who don’t have high price lawyers, who don’t have the power and the levers to fight back coming up again. It was David versus Goliath in the sense, but I think that’s the point to a certain extent. The Atlanta Police Foundation sounds, in some ways, grand, here’s this big Atlanta Police Foundation funded to the max millions of dollars flowing through it to build a training center, while the people who really were activists who had deep passion but had to fight back against would be the pillars of capitalism and fighting over police training center of all things that they say the city doesn’t need because this police training center is going to militarize police, make them less responsive to the community and really gouge out a beautiful forest that they all think should be an amenity.

So it really is amazing that you would have these corporate titans line up against activists and say, “One way or another, we’re building Cop City. In one way or another, there’s nothing you can do about it.” And I think that’s the stark divide we saw in Atlanta, and I think that applies to other communities as well.

Taya Graham:

Very well said. Now, before we delve into some of the more troubling details of how the plans for Cop City unfolded, it’s important to note that the relationship between residents and the police department were already tense. Let’s listen to Kamau Franklin from Community Movement Builders to explain the history a little bit.

Kamau Franklin:

So the relationship is not a great relationship because, I mean, for various reasons, Atlanta has a history, even though it has probably a majority black police force of also using stop and frisk and police violence and violence against the community. And so the relationship is fraught about now. Three years ago, Rashard Brooks, less than a mile from here, was killed at a Wendy’s, which was part of the 2020 uprisings in which people here in Atlanta, as well as all across the country, took to the streets. And over 90%, I think it’s approximately 90% of the arrest in Fulton County, which is the county that Atlanta is mostly situated in. Over 90% of those arrests are of black people in Atlanta, even though Atlanta no longer makes up the majority of black residents in the city itself.

Taya Graham:

So also, Stephen, there was something we noticed, which was along with the fraught relations between police and the community, the mainstream media was advancing a narrative that was quite at odds with what we saw on the ground, but there was also a group that was trying to counter that narrative. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Stephen Janis:

Yeah. Well, the Atlanta Press Collective, which is really just, one, I think the most beautiful things in terms of how journalism, despite the fact that the mainstream media has all the funding, the corporate advertising, that there are citizens who just say, “No, we’re going to tell this story in a different way.” And let’s remember that narratives are important. Narratives are extremely important to policing because policing is, in some ways, a function of governmental narrative saying that there are failed communities and there are successful communities. And that’s why the people we spoke to, some of the on-the-ground journalists, were working, I mean, literally just working for the passion of telling the community’s stories so important because it shapes a narrative in a way that I think makes other things possible. It’s a narrative that’s posited against the idea of police narrative, which is, here’s a community that doesn’t deserve agency, here’s a community that doesn’t deserve amenities. The only people that deserve to have power are the people who already have it. So I think this was very, for me, inspiring.

Taya Graham:

Yeah. Now there … Oh, should we run that clip from the Atlanta …

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

… Community Press Collective?

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

Let’s give them a moment to share their thoughts.

Speaker 4:

How they’re interpreting these domestic terrorism charges.

Clark:

So there are a few things about the mainstream media coverage. One, our paper of record, the AJC is owned by Cox Media. Cox Media is owned by Cox Enterprises, the chair of Cox Enterprises, Alan, or-

Taya Graham:

Now, that was Clark from the Atlanta Community Press Collective. Stephen …

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

… I know you were impressed with that independent reporter.

Stephen Janis:

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well … But he makes a great point that the Atlanta Journal-Constitution is owned by the Cox family, which the Cox family is also part of the funders of the Atlanta Police Foundation, which is funding Cop City. So there you have the most powerful media institution in Atlanta, which also happens to be involved in Cop City.

Taya Graham:

Yeah.

Stephen Janis:

So how can you expect objective coverage of this story from an institution that is intimately involved in its creation?

Taya Graham:

Oh, absolutely.

Stephen Janis:

It’s, I think, a little disturbing, to say the least, but it’s also a very normal fact of life in many US cities, where the mainstream media is intertwined with the institutions that people are trying to hold accountable. So I was really impressed with his breadth and scope of knowledge and his reporting.

Taya Graham:

And I also noted something, that particular newspaper, what was it? The Atlanta Constitutional Journal. Is that-

Stephen Janis:

Atlanta Journal-Constitution, yes.

Taya Graham:

Atlanta Journal-Constitution. I had noticed when I was doing a little research on it, that same day, they had announced their first ever black editor.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

This is isn Atlanta, which has been a majority black city.

Stephen Janis:

True.

Taya Graham:

Home of civil rights, and they literally just got their first black person as an editor. Okay.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

Not a great sign. Anyway, that is … Let me take my reporter hat off for that one.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

Now, there was a key private group funding Cop City with dark money called the Atlanta Police Foundation. It is a nonprofit organization which comprised of a board of economic elites that represent corporate America, to say the least. Executives from Fortune 500 companies like Delta Airlines, Coca-Cola, Chick-fil-A, Waffle House, Cox Enterprises, Home Depot, Merrill Lynch, Equifax, Delta Airlines, I could go on and on. It’s literally a who’s who of corporate Atlanta, who are oddly committed to just funding police privately, but they also have a bit of an issue with transparency, I’ve noticed.

And Stephen, what I’ve also found interesting is that this private police foundation is not only funding Cop City, but it also sponsors a citywide surveillance system, which we learned is named after a developer. So let’s listen to one of the activists, Micah Herskind, describe what they are fighting against.

Micah Herskind:

They were founded in the early two thousands, so they’ve been around for a couple decades now. And really, yeah, they’re supported by a bunch of different corporations, many Atlanta-based corporations, and, really, they, in a lot of ways, act as a shadow government in Atlanta. They have an immense amount of power and authority. I think politicians and people who are trying to see collected office know that, in many cases, if you want a career in politics in Atlanta, you’re going to have to go through the Atlanta Police Foundation because they just have a lot of money and wield a lot of influence. They give a lot of funding to the cops. They channel this private money that is, of course, tax deferred into policing. They operate the city’s Operation Shield network, which is this massive network of surveillance cameras that includes both city cameras and then also everyday people can hook up their security cameras into this feed. And so making Atlanta one of the most surveilled city in the country.

Speaker 7:

[inaudible 00:17:54].

Micah Herskind:

Yeah. So through Operation Shield, which is this surveillance network, all of the footage from the city security cameras, individuals, security cameras that people can link up to the system is run through what is called the Loudermilk Video Integration Center, of course, named after one of these rich Atlanta families developer companies, which even just right there shows the connections of who is behind surveillance and policing in the city.

Taya Graham:

So Stephen, I know you’ve done reporting on surveillance systems before and here and in Baltimore, but a private surveillance system named after a developer.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

How do you explain that?

Stephen Janis:

Well, I found that very interesting because if you look at Atlanta, it’s like a concrete testament to extreme wealth. And so it makes sense, the developer would also have the power to surveil privately the citizens of the city. And I think you can see parallels in cities like Baltimore, where we have done primarily two things, giving tax breaks to developers and spent billions of dollars on policing. And those two things intersect in cities like Atlanta and cities like Baltimore because development is one of the main economic engines. So for him to have actual control over the surveillance system, it’s also almost Gotham-esque in a sense.

Taya Graham:

Oh, no.

Stephen Janis:

Like we’re in Gotham City now.

Taya Graham:

Very much so.

Stephen Janis:

Right, because, literally, he owns the real estate and he pays to surveil the real estate. So it gives you … It’s a little weird and a little disturbing, to say the least.

Taya Graham:

Yeah. I mean, when I was there and I learned about all the different CEOs and executives and corporate elites, it really sounded very dystopian.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

I mean, it’s like one of those futures you can imagine where we don’t have countries anymore, we’re owned by corporations, and the corporations control every aspect of the society.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

It’s really scary.

Stephen Janis:

We’re going to take the metaphor a little … You have this beautiful gleaming city, but underneath it is this private dystopian surveillance system that affects not the people who live in the $700,000 condos, but the people who live on the edge of what will be Cop City. They’re the ones being surveilled, and the people controlling it are the people that own the building. So very illustrative of some of the problems with law enforcement.

Taya Graham:

So I want to share a little bit of the B-roll of the forest, just so people can see what they’re fighting for. It’s also worth noting, I think, that this battle is not just about a training center. It’s also a fight to preserve a life sustaining and unique forest that’s supposed to provide recreation for Atlanta residents, particularly the communities that surround it. That’s because Cop City will be built by tearing down what’s known as the Weelaunee Forest. It’s an old growth contiguous tract of land south of the city that is also known as one of the four lungs of Atlanta.

The nature preserve is a stunning collection of the wildlife and freshwater streams and rivers that will be in part torn down and replaced with pavement and concrete so that police can practice car chases. It’s also worth noting that this beautiful oasis of unfettered nature is next to working class communities and neighborhoods of color that have also suffered greatly at the hands of Atlanta police. We spoke to an activist, Reverend Keyanna Jones, who explained the significance of the land and why she was fighting to stop the plan to pave that over.

Keyanna Jones:

City has never tried to upgrade that land. Neither DeKalb County nor the city of Atlanta has ever tried to do anything with that land to enhance it or make it better for the people. When they finally decide to pay attention, it’s to take it away. There are people who started to create bike trails simply by biking there often enough. When they finally decided to start to build the walking path through their walking, biking, I use it for roller skating because my daughter and I roller skate on that path that goes right into Weelaunee, that finally starts to happen. The next thing you know, “Oh, we’re going to go and take this away because you all have found a use for,” you’ve decided to use it despite the fact that it was an old prison farm and that you could get hurt over there because we haven’t done any type of testing for chemicals in the soil or anything. The people start to use it more and, all of a sudden, you want to take it away.

Taya Graham:

And what makes this even more concerning is how the criminal justice system is treating the activist, including forced defenders who have been fighting back against the plans to build it. That’s because the Georgia Bureau of Investigation has charged several dozen people who were attending a concert and some who allegedly clashed with police last month with domestic terrorism. To do so, they have used a law passed after Dylann Roof massacred nine innocent people in a South Carolina church in 2015, essentially equating the activists with a hate-filled, racially motivated murderer.

Prosecutors have also hinted in court that they may bring RICO charges against the same group, citing specious evidence that the activists have written the number of an organization on their arm that provides bail to people that are helping protect their First Amendment rights. And they’re using that as proof of a conspiracy. So we spoke to a representative of that group, Marlon, of the Atlanta Solidarity Fund, and he said this could have a chilling effect on protesting across the country.

Marlon:

That’s one of the most concerning things that we’ve seen. I mean, really to paint the bigger picture, what we’re seeing is a sustained and escalating campaign of repression against political protestors in this movement against Cop City. And we’ve seen police and prosecutors use an escalating series of tactics, which are increasingly violent and increasingly illegal in an attempt to get protestors to stop their campaign and to scare members of the public into disassociating with the campaign to create this chilling effect. And one of the most recent strategies that we’ve seen prosecutors attempt is this idea of using RICO charges, which is a class of charge that’s designed for prosecuting organized crime organizations like the mafia or violent gangs, and applying this rather to political activists.

Taya Graham:

So these RICO charges are really scary and it’s actually something that we saw potentially weaponized against cop watchers in Texas like HBO Matt, [inaudible 00:24:03] and some of the other folks there as well. So this use of excessive charges, stacking charges on people like that, is really scary, don’t you think?

Stephen Janis:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I’ve seen it across many rural communities, cities as well. I’ve experienced it myself as a reporter where they’ve tried to sweep me into a grand jury investigation when we’re recovering the firing the first black police chief [inaudible 00:24:27]. It is a common tactic. It shows how law enforcement has many tools to fight dissent, to fight people who fight back against law enforcement. I think, in this case, it’s particularly scary because they were saying that these charges, if they’re acquitted, it could be 30 years, 30 years in prison. And I just find it astonishing that is even … And if they come forward with a RICO case, again, these could be massive sentences from people who were just protesting and clash with police. And even if you take it the worst perspective on that, 30 years in prison, we dole out years like candy in this country. And I think it’s reprehensible, really.

Taya Graham:

And just as a side note so that people understand how dangerous this is. So the Solidarity Fund is an organization that you call if you’re in jail because your First Amendment rights have been violated. You’ve gone to a protest, you held a sign and you got taken away. So you wrote the number of the organization on your arm so that you could call and say, “Hey, I need bail fund help.” And that could lead to you getting RICO charges.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

I mean, that’s extreme. So that’s why I’m letting you know, what happens here in Cop City, everyone has to pay attention to it because if this behavior, if these charges are able to allow to go ahead, if it can happen here in Cop City, you know they’re going to try it at a city or a town near you.

Stephen Janis:

Well, that’s the point. I mean, that’s what people are saying. This is a template for repressing protests across the country. And there are other states that have passed laws like these that are very similar in Florida and other places. So it’s definitely something that I think prosecutors are testing the waters.

Taya Graham:

Absolutely.

Stephen Janis:

And they’ll probably see more as people keep pushing back against over policing.

Taya Graham:

But, of course, sometimes a picture can tell a story better than words. Because when we visited the site where the alleged clash between protestors and police occurred, it became clear how corrosive the overemphasis on police in our country can be. What we witnessed was a testament to the power of the corporate elites over the lives and concerns of activists. Stephen, can you talk about what you said when we visited the site and how it affected you? Because I know I was deeply affected when I was standing there right next to the Weelaunee Forest by the site of La Tortuguita’s memorial.

Stephen Janis:

Well, you saw … I think the saddest thing to me is you saw the left remains of a grassroots movement in the most essential way when you say something is grassroots.

Taya Graham:

Yeah.

Stephen Janis:

Because literally people are out in nature trying to protect it, celebrate it, and celebrate the community that comes with it. And it seemed like the place had turned into a semblance of a war zone. There were just remnants of things that had just been cleaned up and cleaned out. And you saw the real power of policing, the way it impacts the environment, and thus impacts our minds, and it impacts the way we think about ourselves. Because you had this campground and places where people have been talking and, obviously, joining in community, and suddenly it had been wiped, not clean, but left in a mess by police pushback. And, of course, when we were there, we kept getting strafed by a police helicopter. Yeah.

Taya Graham:

Oh, that’s right, we were out there.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

I think not only that we have it on-

Stephen Janis:

Yeah, it was like six or seven time.

Taya Graham:

Not only did we have an unmarked police car sitting there with us, keeping an eye on us.

Stephen Janis:

Blocking our car in for a while.

Taya Graham:

Blocking our car in.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

But a helicopter buzzed us while we were trying to do our little standups.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah, I think strafed was kind of like … More buzzed is-

Taya Graham:

Yeah, strafed.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah, I know.

Taya Graham:

I don’t think … If we were strafed, we wouldn’t be sitting here.

Stephen Janis:

I meant, psychologically strafing us. Okay, I’m sorry. That’s pretty funny.

Taya Graham:

But they buzzed us and dipped down six times because apparently at least the two of us standing outside with a camera and a microphone, where it’s just [inaudible 00:28:06].

Stephen Janis:

So it shows the extremes that we’re talking about, the extreme imperative of American policing, that two people holding a microphone and a camera is suddenly a threat. If that’s a threat, I don’t know where we’re headed from there.

Taya Graham:

Iowa Blackbird made an interesting comment. Smartphones are a tool of the surveillance state. How do you organize effectively over time without communication devices or supports? How can you live without a phone? The left has been trapped. That’s an interest-

Stephen Janis:

Maybe signal, I don’t know.

Taya Graham:

Well, I mean, I was going to say, but that still means we are somewhat trapped by our devices. I think that’s when we reach out to the wisdom of some of the older organizers because they manage to organize, create unions, get together, push back, whether it was Eugene Debs’ crew back in the day, or Emma Goldman, or people pushing back against the Vietnam War back in the day. They managed to figure out a way to show up and protest and stay in contact with each other. So if they can do it, we can do it. We’ve just become a bit dependent on our devices, I would say.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah, yeah.

Taya Graham:

But to me, and back to Cop City, but thank you. I just wanted to make sure that I address that comment, and I will try to address as many as I can for you. So one of the things that also stood out to us was the tribute to a young man who lost his life in that struggle. That was Manuel Teran or La Tortuguita. La Tortuguita was a forest defender and environmental activist who was shot by police as they used the same militarized police tactics that Cop City is designed to teach. Police alleged that Manuel had a gun and that he had fired on an officer prior to being shot when independent autopsy commissioned by his family shows he had defensive wounds on his hands, and that he was in a so-called meditative position. His hands like this with his legs crossed.

Again, Reverend Keyanna talked about Manuel and how he believed in peaceful protest.

Keyanna Jones:

Because we know that Manny was a pacifist, that Manny was non-violent, that Manny believed that the way we would win this fight to stop Cop City was through non-violent action and persistence. And one thing that Manny always said was that we were going to win with our love, then our voices, because we could win in the court of public opinion because we had the community on our side. So there is no way that we, as a community who stood with Manny and stood in the forest and understand the magic that happens there that brings people together to fight for this cause, there’s no way that Manny would’ve wanted to injure another soul because they were not violent. They knew that the way to win this is to present the facts like we have been and through the direct actions that we’ve been performing.

Taya Graham:

Stephen, I was really struck by the attachment and love for the forest that La Tortuguita was trying to defend. And in a sense, his and other’s passion for the forest showed that they thought of it as a communal resource. And I think when you’re in the forest, you really understand why Cop City is such an affront to people who believe the land should be preserved for everyone. I mean, Atlanta is a city replete with four-lane thoroughfares and skyscrapers, but hardly any green spaces or park. So you have this gusher of private money to secretly fund it. And then you have this beautiful forest, one of the last so-called nature corridors near the city that is literally going to be paved over to create safety for the rich, to ensure wealthy elites can continue to prosper. And let’s remember, an old-growth forest cannot be replaced. It cannot be raised from the dead after it’s buried under steel and concrete. It is a precious and irreplaceable gift of nature, a unique site where the earth gives to us in which we should treasure.

Okay, Stephen, I know I’m getting a little caught up, but that place was beautiful. And to think that it’s going to be knocked down so that police can practice urban warfare or putting down protestors, I mean, that is horrifying.

Stephen Janis:

I think that’s what makes Cop City so represented with some multifaceted nature of police and the repression it elicits because I think the people who tear down that forest are going to go in the annals of environmental, I would guess, not to call them villains, but historical villains …

Taya Graham:

Yes.

Stephen Janis:

… in the fight to say this planet. I was moved by being in the forest.

Taya Graham:

Yes.

Stephen Janis:

And, to me, to tear it down, to have payments so cops could chase each other around and take an irreplaceable, beautiful symbol of nature, I think that it’s going to be historical in the sense that this will be seen as a fulcrum through which we see the environmental disaster that’s being created by our excess capitalism.

Taya Graham:

And Noli D made a really good point. She said that there’s going to be more storms than ever. And that is something that we discovered talking to a variety of people there, that that forest is absolutely essential to help prevent flooding. It’s also essential to make sure that the area has clean, fresh air. I mean, it’s called one of the four lungs of Atlanta. So this is a beautiful space that was originally promised to that community for recreation to be used for biking and hiking and just enjoying the outdoors. And so it’s being taken away. And that simply isn’t fair. And for some reason, the community apparently doesn’t have any say. There was a 17-hour hearing where members of the community weighed in, talked about how they felt about Cop City. Over 70% of the people who came to that hearing said, “We don’t want it.” But apparently, those city council members don’t want to listen to their constituents.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah. Well, I think you see the real bifurcation the policing has on our concern about things that are really important to the community. You had the grassroots movement, but you have a wide swath of Atlanta that because the mainstream media blankets all this with a blessing of this neoliberal fascism that people say, “Oh, why do I care about Cop City?” I mean, the police want to train and want to repel and want to practice in a fake nightclub, what do I care? But I think everyone who really supports Cop City should go out and spend a couple minutes in that forest and realize what they are trading for this pavement and these police training facilities. It is really depressing in many ways.

Taya Graham:

That’s an excellent point. Well, we will have more to say about Cop City later on in the show and more in our ongoing reporting on policing in America. But now, we’re going to be joined by our first guest to discuss not just the troubling developments with policing we were just discussing, but also the state of law enforcement across the country.

His name is probably familiar to anyone who cares about police accountability and probably some who don’t. In fact, it is no exaggeration to say he has one of the most popular channels on YouTube, at least according to us, particularly when it comes to showing the impact of overpolicing on everyday Americans. His name, of course, is LackLuster, and we are very lucky to be joined by him today. Welcome to the Police Accountability Report livestream.

LackLuster:

Hey, everybody. Thanks for having me.

Stephen Janis:

Hey, LackLuster. How you doing?

LackLuster:

Doing well, doing well. Thank you. Yeah, I almost had myself muted, but …

Taya Graham:

It’s all good.

LackLuster:

… I saved it last second.

Taya Graham:

All good. Well, before we get to your work, I’m just curious if you would share some of your thoughts on Cop City.

LackLuster:

To be honest, I have not been following the whole Cop City thing. I’m learning a lot about it tonight from you guys.

Stephen Janis:

Oh.

Taya Graham:

Oh, good.

LackLuster:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

Well, I’m glad we could do our job as reporters to help inform you.

Stephen Janis:

I do want to ask you a question just to start off about something that we’ve seen in our channel, and I’m sure you see, is just the amount of people whose lives are really negatively affected by policing in this country.

Taya Graham:

Oh, yes.

Stephen Janis:

Is this something you see? I mean, we’re a little over … We get overwhelmed sometimes trying to reach out to all the people who need help. I can’t imagine what you must see. What are you seeing as you continue to report on policing?

LackLuster:

Well, I have a form that people can submit videos to, and that thing blows up all day. And then my email addresses are public and it’s gotten to a point realistically about two years ago where I can’t even respond to them. And half of them, I have to browse over as quickly as I can before I decide whether or not I’m even going to finish reading it. And it’s a shame. And I’ve tried hiring people to help me with it and delegating those tasks out, but it’s crazy. It’s a never-ending story. It’s whack-a-mole, basically.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah. I mean, I see so many people whose lives … To me, the story is a story of chaos in their lives. They get one interaction with law enforcement that seems to turn into something even worse over time, and not the word blossom, but just get worse and worse. But there’s a lot of pain, too, when people reach out because people reach out to us in pain. Not to get too emotional, but do you see that kind of stuff when you’re going through these?

LackLuster:

Yeah, all the time. Typically, the subject line is please help. And for a lot of people, it’s an incident or a situation that is representative of the worst time of their life, whether it was losing someone to police violence or just getting caught up in the court system and having to deal with all of that.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

LackLuster:

So, yeah, there’s quite a bit.

Taya Graham:

Something that I’ve dealt with, you do so much work reviewing cellphone and body camera footage. And I know we’ve both seen some absolute horror. But outside of that horror, there are certain laws that are being broken by these police officers. What are some of the most common abuses of police power that you see?

LackLuster:

I think the most common thing that I see might not actually be them trying to be nefarious. I think the most common thing that I typically deal with is law enforcement that haven’t been trained, I guess, to a level above mediocre.

Taya Graham:

That’s very diplomatic.

LackLuster:

Yeah. It’s really simple stuff. But it’s very interesting because a lot of these things are very simple concepts. When you think about what freedom is and what it would really be, what would freedom look like in a free society, would we allow an armed agents of the state to pull you over on the side of the road and pull everybody out of the vehicle in the name of officer safety? And it just seems like there hasn’t been enough thought and the culture of policing becomes more overwhelming than the legal basis, the legal foundation, the philosophy behind freedom, all of that gets washed away because of the culture and the brotherhood that they have.

And I understand why there’s a brotherhood. I was in the military. I was a firefighter with LA City Fire. So I understand the camaraderie that comes with those jobs and why it becomes an us versus them because it’s experiences that you go through that nobody else experiences except for that specific class of people. But it becomes so strong that it erodes … I don’t know, it seems like it erodes all common sense, to be honest. And that’s a shame.

Taya Graham:

Wow. That’s a powerful statement.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah. I mean, that’s pretty profound.

Taya Graham:

It is.

Stephen Janis:

Because it seems … And I guess you see this a lot, that it seems like many times I watch videos where police could literally deescalate, literally walk away, literally just say, “You know what, I’m not going to deal with you today. I don’t even care.” And it seems that there’s some compulsion they had that they have to resolve the situation in their favor with their power being paramount. Do you see that, and why do you think that is? Is that part of the culture you’re talking about?

LackLuster:

Yeah. I mean, I think it can be part of the culture and even bigger, and maybe even more dangerous part, maybe not, is one’s personal ego. These jobs typically attract type A personalities, people who are often very disagreeable, like to take charge and lead. Whether they’re leading in the right or wrong direction, that’s for you to decide. But that’s the type of personality that we’re seeing in these occupations.

And because of that, when they feel slighted or if they’ve lost control, if you make them look foolish or maybe even if you’re just a little smarter than them and they know it, you can see it turn on people. For example, James Freeman put out a video today from, what is it, Harvey Freebird. And the guy said, “Hey, you dropped your pocket.” And then the cop see … I’m going to be careful with my language. It appears as though he felt embarrassed because he got trolled by this dumb joke and found a reason to arrest the guy.

Taya Graham:

Wow.

LackLuster:

Yeah. So that’s obviously an ego issue.

Stephen Janis:

How did you get from serving your country in the military, being a firefighter, to having one of the most popular cop-watching channels? And being a journalist, how did you make that transition? It’s fascinating to me because you’ve been in both worlds. Taya and I have only been journalists. We don’t know what the other world’s really like. How did you manage that and what did you learn from that transition?

LackLuster:

Sure. Well, I think it goes back to my time in Iraq. I was a combat medic for 1st Infantry. So we were on the front lines and we were sent all over the country to fight in these big battles. And because I’m a medic, I’m the one medic for 38 guys, I’m very protected, I’m very cushioned. So they don’t often push me right to the front. So because of that, I started filming. And they’re all over YouTube, all my videos and stuff. But I was filming, filming, and that’s how I figured out editing and my love for it. And after the military, did the fire department thing, and the editing and my joy for that science fell off a little bit. And because of those occupations, I would say I was probably one of the hardcore boot liquors. And … No, really, I probably would’ve been today commenting-

Taya Graham:

No, it’s good to be honest.

LackLuster:

Absolutely. But it’s that slogan you hear in our community, back the blue until it happens to you. I was a very pro-police, we need it for society and blah, blah, blah. And I think there’s probably still arguments for that. But I had a neighbor threatened to kill himself, said he had a gun, he emailed a bunch of people. And so I took it as a very literal threat. Called the Colorado Springs Police Department. They responded, I let them into my house through into my backyard. He smokes in the backyard over there. I’m just trying to help my friend. And they end up raiding his house. It’s a really small raid. But that interaction, they were telling me to go back inside my house, even though I was like 50 meters around the little corner of this cul-de-sac type street. And so I had my first face-to-face negative experience with law enforcement, and it was just his ego versus mine, and he was wrong.

And because of that editing history, I took all that video and I figured out how to do a foyer request because I’d been watching James Freeman and Johnny Five 0. I found interesting, wasn’t really totally out of the boot yet, but I put it up online and it blew up. And Johnny reached out to me and a bunch of people reached out to me. And from there, it’s been … I mean, it’s still a learning experience. There’s just so much to learn about this, whether you’re a law enforcement officer or on the journalist side or a lawyer or whatever.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

LackLuster:

There’s just so much. So, yeah, that’s been my progression.

Stephen Janis:

Do you think the cops that day realize they launched the biggest cop watching channel in the country?

LackLuster:

I hope so.

Stephen Janis:

Do you think they’ve ever had to reconcile with that?

LackLuster:

I imagine. I mean, that video was quite a ruckus at the time, so I’m sure he knew about it then. And after that video went viral, we had the ACLU come down from Denver into Colorado Springs and host a meetup. My wife had put together this weekly event and we would gather and talk about, I don’t know, odd topics. And so they came down and they actually presented one of his cases from two years prior that cost the city $200,000. But I’m sure they knew all of this stuff was going on. And, I don’t know. The sad thing is I don’t know what happened to the guy, whether he was reprimanded or what.

Stephen Janis:

Well, that brings up an interesting point because do you think that police are becoming cognizant of the fact that they’re being watched more and being videotaped more and that people like you are doing journalism and reporting on things that they do instead of just letting it … I mean, actually when you think about you or James Freeman or a variety of other cop watchers have a bigger audience than the mainstream media. Do you think cops are like, “Uh-oh, LackLuster is on the case with me and I better get back to that car and not arrest this person?” Do you think there’s any consciousness of what you have started and others have created?

LackLuster:

Yeah, absolutely. And because of my role in the military and through the fire department, I still have contacts and friends in those capacities. And just today, there was a conference, I don’t know exactly what conference it was, but there were 13 different states sent their highest ranking to do this big police conference. And my name was brought up apparently. So I-

Stephen Janis:

That’s amazing.

Taya Graham:

That’s awesome.

LackLuster:

And actually, I’m sitting on a video where they’re asking somebody that they’re arresting, “Oh, do you watch LackLuster?” And that was from Florida and I barely go to Florida. So I know it’s having an impact. And I think sometimes we actually see it in the actions of the officers on the street. So there are definitely some interactions where you’re like, “Whoa, this is going to go really bad,” and then it doesn’t. And it’s quite surprising. And sometimes even here, some of these officers, reciting case law on the spot.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

LackLuster:

Yeah. And I think we owe it all basically to the camera. I’m sure this has been going on for centuries, if not, what’s bigger than a century, a thousand. I’m sure it’s been … Yeah. Since human and the need to, I guess, control people in society and keep them in line, I’m sure it’s been going on for that long. But now we get to actually see it like looking into a crystal ball and seeing the past and get to have some retrospect on actions that we wouldn’t have been able to do 50, 60 years ago. It’s crazy.

Taya Graham:

It’s interesting. I was looking into, I guess you could say, the history of cop watching because you’re right. It’s a very recent phenomena. And the earliest cop watching I could find was essentially from the Black Panthers in California initially starting to record the actions of police. They started taking notes to see how the police were interacting with the community. And then later in the 1990s, there was an officer named Don Jackson, who later changed his name to Diop Kamau. And he started an organization called policeabuse.org. And he was an LAPD officer and he eventually said, “I cannot work with these cops. This is a corrupt organization.” And he started filming police himself. And there are a couple … You can find a couple of the old YouTube videos of NBC taking his video footage of him setting up a police officer to see their negligent and even abusive behavior and turn it over. So there is a bit of a history of cop watching, but it was absolutely made possible by the camera, the cellphone. It really … We couldn’t do it, otherwise do it.

Stephen Janis:

And then you had Tom Zebra, who was actually like-

Taya Graham:

Oh, he has VHS tape.

Stephen Janis:

VHS [inaudible 00:50:23].

Taya Graham:

Which is amazing.

Stephen Janis:

Thomas showed me some of that video, and it’s epic.

Taya Graham:

It really is.

Stephen Janis:

It’s epic. But as you point out, it’s evolved. I mean, it seems like, as we were talking about before, what’s amazing is your work is having an impact, I think.

Taya Graham:

Absolutely.

Stephen Janis:

And I am not surprised cops are invoking your name.

Taya Graham:

Oh, yes.

Stephen Janis:

I mean, I don’t know if I’d want to be the subject with 3 million view video.

LackLuster:

Yeah.

Stephen Janis:

What do you think is happening with American policing now? Is it getting worse, better? You touched on this a little bit, but I think we look at Cop City, it seems like it’s just going forward with the same militarized. Is it becoming more militarized? Are we getting closer to what you are familiar with the military? And what are the dangers of that, in your mind, having served in the military?

LackLuster:

Yeah. I think my view on it changes every day. Some days, I’m like, “Oh, wow, look at that. That looks nice. Maybe there’s hope.” And then the next day, you see something that you never thought you’d ever see or you think you’ve seen it all until this one video, and that tends to happen every other day, too.

Stephen Janis:

Wow.

LackLuster:

But as far as whether it’s getting worse or better, as far as if we play the numbers game and look at the history of SWAT and the militarization of police it, I think it’s getting worse. It’s hard to say for sure 100% because it could just be that cameras have become so prolific that now we’re actually being exposed to it rather than just not believing the crazy guy over there that says his house was raided. Now, we actually see it and it’s televised not only by the victims but also by these agencies. And now people like Sheriff Mark Lamb, who are now capitalizing off of the no-knock raids and their special weapons and tactics teams.

But if we look back into the history of it, where SWAT was essentially started to raid the Black Panthers, and then it was televised, people loved it, they created a TV show, and we had this national hysteria, and then by the mid-’70s, you got maybe 500 SWAT teams across the nation. And today, just about every department has one, but it’s not sweeping across a board yet. You do see some smaller departments reaching out to their neighboring departments for joint operations and pulling in their SWAT teams, but those numbers have grown so much. And even the amount of no-knock raids because of non-violent drug offenses, mind you, those have grown from maybe 150 per year back in the early ’70s and now we’re looking at maybe around a hundred thousand per year in current estimations for now.

Taya Graham:

You know what, I just want to ask you one last question because we do have one more special guest hiding back there.

LackLuster:

Sure.

Taya Graham:

So I’m just curious, tell me a little bit just about some of the obstacles you have faced with records requests or transparency police departments.

Stephen Janis:

Oh, yeah, it’s a good question.

Taya Graham:

Because I know we have had our fair share and sometimes nothing short of damning video evidence will get police or prosecutors to respond.

LackLuster:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

How do you manage to get comment? How do you manage to get records?

Stephen Janis:

That’s a great question now.

Taya Graham:

How do you put the full impact of the LackLuster channel to be able to get the response you need?

LackLuster:

I haven’t used the weight of the channel at all yet, not for records requests or to, if you don’t do this, you’re going to end up on my channel. I haven’t done that yet.

Taya Graham:

You’re saving it?

LackLuster:

Yeah, I don’t know. I might not ever do it. I don’t feel very comfortable with it. I know I hold a huge power and it’s somewhat scary. I, obviously, work for it, but I didn’t necessarily ask for it, if that makes sense.

Taya Graham:

Yes, yeah.

Stephen Janis:

Of course.

LackLuster:

And I want to be very careful with it because I know that it could damage the entire movement, something stupid that I do. I mean, I could say something wrong on this podcast and have my door kicked in tonight, and then there goes my family and whatever else.

Taya Graham:

Yeah.

LackLuster:

But as far as records requests and jumping through hoops, probably nothing too crazy. I get a lot of really uptight records clerks that don’t like that I write out my records requests. I have a huge template that I’ll typically go through and cite the laws of their state and whatnot, and they’ll say, “Now, you have to use our form,” which is less information is going on your form. Yeah, I think the hardest thing I really have to deal with is there are some states that don’t allow you to request records unless you’re a resident. Some of those do have a journalism caveat, and if you say like, “Hey, I’m media,” then they’ll pump it out. But, yeah, like Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas.

Stephen Janis:

That’s really interesting.

LackLuster:

Yeah. So those are difficult, but people reach out and help.

Stephen Janis:

It’s great that you called it a movement because I really do … Taya, I really believe covering you and James Freeman and Otto the Watchdog and …

Taya Graham:

Blind Justice.

Stephen Janis:

… Blind Justice or Brent, and then you go on and on.

Taya Graham:

And Kyle Monk 83 and Tom Zebra, Laurashark, and [inaudible 00:56:44] Productions.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah, it is a movement shark. It really is a movement.

LackLuster:

Yeah.

Stephen Janis:

And what’s really cool is it’s completely organic.

LackLuster:

Yeah.

Stephen Janis:

It’s not something contrived out of a corporate giants mind, here, let’s spend some more opiate to the masses. It’s really something that people just on their own like you have invented.

Taya Graham:

Yes.

Stephen Janis:

Right?

LackLuster:

Yeah.

Stephen Janis:

That’s amazing. To me, that’s amazing. And as a journalist who came from the mainstream media, I love watching how you guys are creatively approaching this and changing the fiber of journalism as you go. I just think that’s awesome. So I just wanted to say that. So that’s coming from me.

LackLuster:

Yeah. It’s really neat. Well, thank you very much for that. There’s certainly a lot of passion behind this because of the way that it affects us and how many people it affects, how much money it takes from us, and how much of that is unaccounted for. So I guess if I could say anything to everybody, just be very careful. I know that very passionate things tend to incite very fiery emotions and anger can lead you down some dark paths. Whether you do anything with it or not, it’s going to affect you pretty negatively. Yeah, I don’t know, try doing something with it that is helpful and won’t hurt anybody. Yeah.

Stephen Janis:

Perfect. Thank you. Thank you.

Taya Graham:

Thank you so much, Dale, for joining us. We really appreciate it so much. Thank you for taking the time to be here.

Stephen Janis:

Thank you, yes.

Taya Graham:

Thank for the work you do.

LackLuster:

Of course. Thanks for having me.

Taya Graham:

And we just appreciate you so much.

Stephen Janis:

We really appreciate you.

Taya Graham:

Thank you. And I just want to say Otto the Watchdog said something great. According to Washington Post, police cost 1.5 billion in lawsuits. They are defunding themselves.

Stephen Janis:

I love it.

Taya Graham:

Well said.

Stephen Janis:

Thank you, Otto.

Taya Graham:

Well, said Otto.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah. It’s not really a livestream without Otto the Watchdog.

Taya Graham:

It really isn’t.

Stephen Janis:

But love it.

Taya Graham:

It really isn’t.

Stephen Janis:

So.

Taya Graham:

So I think we should probably go to our next guest, Chris Reiter, whose channel is for public safety. And just before I go, I just want to say, you guys know who Dale is, you know the LackLuster channel, but if you haven’t gone there and subscribe, you might want to go and check it out.

Stephen Janis:

Yep.

Taya Graham:

You might want to [inaudible 00:59:07].

Stephen Janis:

I know I watch it.

Taya Graham:

So, yes, we do.

Stephen Janis:

Highly recommended.

Taya Graham:

So it’s under the name LackLuster, in case you didn’t know.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

Now, Chris Reiter has a channel for public safety. And our next guest should be familiar to anyone who watches our show because we reported on an illegal raid conducted by the police on his home in 2021 that led to devastating consequences for him and his family. But we also told an inspiring story about him, too, because Chris didn’t just suffer in silence after the police violated his rights. Instead, he fought back, even helping a victim of police brutality to file a complaint, which, unfortunately, again led to Chris being falsely arrested. But that is just the beginning of his story. And to help me tell the rest of it, I’m joined by Chris Reiter. Chris, thank you so much for joining us.

Chris Reiter:

Thank you for having me today. It’s always a pleasure.

Stephen Janis:

And thank you for your patience.

Taya Graham:

We’re so glad to have you back. And thank you for being patient with us.

Chris Reiter:

Yeah, I have been arrested.

Taya Graham:

So I know you’re having-

Chris Reiter:

Oh, no, it’s my pleasure. I’ve been watching and I’m [inaudible 01:00:10].

Taya Graham:

Well, it’s a pleasure to have-

Stephen Janis:

We have a little problem with Chris’s sound, but we’ll try to push through it.

Taya Graham:

Yeah.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

We’re going to push through because we really want you to be a part of this stream. So …

Stephen Janis:

So, first of all, I want to say-

Taya Graham:

… I know Stephen had a question for you.

Stephen Janis:

Well, let me ask you a question because, to me, it seems like, Chris, you’re living in, well, let’s say cop county.

Taya Graham:

Cop county.

Stephen Janis:

And I just want to-

Taya Graham:

Not county city, cop county.

Stephen Janis:

Wanted to get your impression, your thoughts about Cop City, what you think about it. Do you think it should go through? What are your thoughts on Cop City?

Chris Reiter:

Oh, I absolutely do not like the idea at all. The farther I’ve gone into learning, being proactive after what happened, I realize that a military style policing is also the same as the privatized style policing. They’re the same. And when you get a privatized policing, then we, as the influencers, lose that ability, because when they go privatized, we’re no longer in control.

Stephen Janis:

That’s a really good point. I mean … And you’ve had firsthand experience with this because you had a SWAT wait on your house. And what I thought was amazing about your story, and still continues to affect me, is the fact that a lot of this was cops trying to turn policing into entertainment for like a Roman circus thing. Can you talk about how … I mean, because we don’t get to talk to many people who’ve experienced a police raid. How has that raid affected you now and then, and your life’s on a daily basis, I guess I would say?

Chris Reiter:

Oh, that’s a … I mean, it’s such a big question. It has such a large answer. I guess the best way to put it is it’s completely life altering. I mean, I can’t imagine that there’s a small way to invade someone’s life with a SWAT raid. It’s going to affect them on a devastating level, no matter how it turned out. It’s going to devastate their lives.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah. It’s interesting because when we were researching your story, I looked at some of the stats on raids, there are like 37,000 raids a year. Only 7% are for what SWAT teams were designed for, which is were supposedly hostage type situations. And so isn’t that mind-boggling that there are about 35,000 people a year who are put in the position you’re in, where there’s a police raid over something minor? I mean, how does that strike you in terms of thinking about it on the scale of what your experience being multiplied thousands of times?

Chris Reiter:

Well, I mean, it could have been way worse for us. And that’s the thing is that everybody who’s experienced it is in the position to say, “Well, it could have been worse,” because it can keep getting worse and worse and worse. So it’s the level of everyone died. And it’s just as dangerous on the side of the police, too. There is no safety involved in these raids. And their militant style training does not keep that environment safe. It makes it more [inaudible 01:03:38] to attack. It’s designed for safety. So when these police are learning these military tactics, they’re going to come in hot, they’re there to attack. And I think you and Taya hit the nail on the head on the segment that you did with Tiffany and I, when you said police are trained with these tools. When these tools are [inaudible 01:04:03], they’re looking, they’re chomping at the bit for an opportunity. And when they came from a military style, it is not good or [inaudible 01:04:16] one.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah, no, you make a good point. We talked about the example of Chekhov’s gun, which is a … Anton Chekhov was a Russian playwright who said don’t put a gun in the first act if you’re not going to fire it in the second act. Everyone email me how wrong that is. That’s just a summary of that. But the point was that if you design policing, if you give police this tool, they’re variably going to want to use it. And I think a lot of times, they like to dress up and play army, so to speak. And, really, it’s stunning that this country that we tolerate it because if indeed 93% of these raids are for things like marijuana in the basement, as you point out, the risk and the massive risk of the people on both sides of that door, I don’t see how we justify it. I mean, as someone who’s lived through it, is there any way to justify this use of policing as military raiders?

Chris Reiter:

[inaudible 01:05:19]. It would be a very rare [inaudible 01:05:24] of exercising [inaudible 01:05:29].

Taya Graham:

Uh-oh, we’re getting a little bit of lag.

Chris Reiter:

[inaudible 01:05:34].

Stephen Janis:

Yeah, it’s getting worse.

Chris Reiter:

[inaudible 01:05:37] shootings, I can seek in [inaudible 01:05:42] like that. Or like you said, Stephen, hostage situations. I mean, I get it, but since we’re [inaudible 01:05:52] support to so many agencies to be [inaudible 01:05:56] are developing, investing in their SWAT teams. And these areas will very [inaudible 01:06:09] ever actually use them or use, so they’ll use them in [inaudible 01:06:16] not necessary.

Stephen Janis:

Well, Chris, we’re having a little trouble with your audio and I think-

Taya Graham:

Yeah, we’re having just a little bit of a lag, unfortunately.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

I’m so sorry.

Stephen Janis:

So maybe what we’ll do is we’ll just have you back maybe next time or-

Taya Graham:

You know what, we’re just going to have to have you back on.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

That’s all there is to it.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah. You’re too good of a guest. I don’t want to do this interview when your internet’s not working and-

Taya Graham:

Because we are always hanging on every word, okay.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

We want to hear you. We know people want to hear you. We’ve seen a lot of beautiful shout outs to you to the For Public Safety channel. I think I even might have seen someone mention Tiffany’s channel. I think that’s Official Misconduct. So I know there are a lot of people who want to see you, who want to hear what you have to say, but, unfortunately, we are having a little trouble hearing you.

Stephen Janis:

I mean, the thing is you can go to our YouTube channel to The Real News Network and look on the Police Accountability Report playlist. And you can see we did a 40-minute interview with Chris and Tiffany.

Taya Graham:

Yes. We did a beautiful 40-minute interview with them.

Stephen Janis:

And where we went through his case and …

Taya Graham:

Yes, step by step.

Stephen Janis:

… step by step. So Chris, we’ll have you back on.

Taya Graham:

We promise we’ll have you back, okay.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah, absolutely.

Taya Graham:

Will you come back and will spend some time with us?

Stephen Janis:

Will you please come back?

Chris Reiter:

Absolutely.

Stephen Janis:

Okay.

Taya Graham:

Okay, great.

Stephen Janis:

All right.

Taya Graham:

Well, I think Stephen, if there is one thing about Chris’ story, especially I think the for-profit aspect of the raid, the way it deeply impacted his life and Tiffany’s life, I mean, it illustrates how the people who watch us, we live in two distinct realities from the people who have what we would call the instruments of real power.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

There’s the YouTubers and the cop watchers and the independent journalists, and then those who have the real power, the real elites. And as we said before, there’re those who are policed and those who aren’t. We’ve talked about this quite a bit.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

And I was wondering if you can break down what it means, why is it so relevant?

Stephen Janis:

Well, I think … Okay. So I think economic inequality creates excess power. It’s almost like you have a cup that’s too full. So what do you do with it? You don’t want it to spill, right? You got to do something of that power. And I think police absorb that excess power and use it against the people who aren’t on that side, let’s say, so to say the side we talk about of the elites and the people who have the power. So it’s like this excess power gets spilled out into the population, works its way into communities, and becomes the confrontation you see with police, where the cop just won’t let someone go because they have to arrest them. Or it becomes the 30,000 raids that are completely unnecessary over small amounts of marijuana. There is just a certain amount of excess power that capitalism that … But mostly inequality.

Let’s not even call it capitalism, let’s call it rampant inequality creates. And that excess power has to go somewhere and police are usually the recipient. That’s why we have the Cop City plan because it’s really just a matter of excess power, finding a place in a community that doesn’t want it, doesn’t need it, and is trying to fight back against it, but it has to go somewhere. And I think … So that’s why when we talk about policing, we have to understand that policing is not just guns and badges and arrests and prisons. It’s also an idea. It’s an idea about something about a way to solve a problem. It’s an idea about how government has agency, not just against us, but a way to infiltrate communities in ways that are, I think, not productive at all. So it’s really, really something that we have to look in the sense and say, “What are we going to do about this excess power? How do we confront it?”

One of the things I liked about what LackLuster said was he said there’s a movement here. And I think what’s really important to understand is that cop watching wouldn’t exist if this excess power didn’t exist. Those two things would not be here if we didn’t have the excess power to deal with. I mean, what’s beautiful about it … And we’ve talked about at the beginning of the show about hope. What’s beautiful about it is that this activist community has emerged, these YouTube channels have been created. This is all extremely important because, really, without it, I don’t think the mainstream media would approach this subject the way someone like LackLuster or a channel like James Freeman or Otto or anyone has approached this. I think that’s what’s great about it. It’s been wholly creative, it’s been innovative, and it’s given us, in a sense, a different way of looking at the problem.

Just like when we were down in Cop City and we said, the way this is being reported on, it’s not bad, but it certainly isn’t getting the essence of the imbalance of power in this case or the excess power that spills over and suddenly you have a faux nightclub and a forest coming down and all sorts of other things that seem to have nothing to do with building a stronger community for people or taking care of their problems. I mean, I think, personally, that one of the most optimistic things there are, are people who care enough to create a YouTube channel. It’s really stunning to me when you think about people who have done this, starting from nothing, with no funding, no way to pay themselves, no way to support journalism the way journalism is usually constructed around a business model. This was an organic model, not a business model.

Taya Graham:

Absolutely.

Stephen Janis:

This is a model of passion. And if you look at someone like LackLuster who served in the military, served his country, and now is serving this country as an independent journalist, well, that gives me optimism because that excess power, as much as it creaks havoc in the lives of the people we talk to, the people who contact us, the people who have been victimized by policing, as much as we have to deal with it, this response has emerged wholly, fully, independently. And, therefore, I think it’s much more vital. Just like we saw in Atlanta with a community like the Atlanta Press Collective and the bail people and the activists who were fighting, they were doing this all on their own. They weren’t funded … They weren’t sponsored by Coca-Cola.

Taya Graham:

Right.

Stephen Janis:

That’s for sure. I mean, they weren’t walking around with Coca-Cola t-shirts or Delta Airlines T-shirts. These people were doing this out of a passion. And that is the most potent force that can counter that excess power, which is the love and passion of a community who do something on principle, right?

Taya Graham:

Yes.

Stephen Janis:

Because they believe constitutional rights and productive communities and fair housing are important. That’s why, that’s why this … I think, overall, I don’t want to make predictions, I’m not better, but I think this independent movement will triumph because of the fact that it’s completely organic and divided from that power and not participating in it because, really, in a way, that power infiltrates all facets. And I know … Because as a former mainstream media refugee, as I say that, I know it’s an old dad joke, but I say it. But I mean that I’ve seen the difference, I’ve been on both sides and I see the difference.

Taya Graham:

I think you’re so right, Stephen, and I think that was so well said. I think it shows a truly democratic impulse because LackLuster isn’t the only person who was a part of that culture. I think we spoke to James Madison, who I think was a former police officer. I think Jack Turner was involved in corrections. Some of these folks were on the other side of this. They were embraced by that culture and they saw the wrong that is occurring. We have a lot of folks that are auditors and cop watchers that are veterans who have so much respect for [inaudible 01:13:29].

Stephen Janis:

Yeah, Blind Justice being a veteran, yeah.

Taya Graham:

Yeah, Blind Justice.

Stephen Janis:

Kyle.

Taya Graham:

Kyle Monk 83.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

And they have so much respect for the Constitution and what America is supposed to be that when they see that being violated, they felt they had to do something. So it’s a really powerful movement. And I’m so glad that even if in a small way we’re able to show it and give it some light that the mainstream media simply refuses to.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

We do.

Stephen Janis:

I mean, that’s our role. That’s why we exist. I think that’s why we should keep doing this and I think that’s why we’re going to keep covering it.

Taya Graham:

Absolutely.

Stephen Janis:

I mean, I can guarantee you that we’re going to cover cop watchers no matter what happens. It’s always going to be part of our show and I learned something from them every day. I mean, just talking to LackLuster was extremely insightful. And also Chris Reiter. I mean, I really want to get him back because …

Taya Graham:

Yes, absolutely.

Stephen Janis:

… he is a man who is completely committed. The part of the story we didn’t get to tell that we’ve told before is that he experienced a raid, but after the raid, he went out and helped someone try to file a records request because their son had been a victim of a police brutal, brutal arrest.

Taya Graham:

Brutal arrest.

Stephen Janis:

And he gets arrested again.

Taya Graham:

I know.

Stephen Janis:

With a fake name from a 1999 charge.

Taya Graham:

Was a 1998 charge for a joint.

Stephen Janis:

’99, yeah, for possession of marijuana.

Taya Graham:

Yes.

Stephen Janis:

Which tells you all you need to know about.

Taya Graham:

Which wasn’t him, it wasn’t him.

Stephen Janis:

Which tells you all you need to know about American policing. Because even in that small, simpler arrest, you see the essence of the excess power spilling over and sweeping away another person in a way that’s completely unnecessary. So I think we can take that to the bank.

Taya Graham:

Absolutely. So I just wanted to share some final thoughts for tonight, and not just about Cop City, but the theme of this show is, Is America Becoming Cop City? And I know on the surface it might seem like an oversimplification of a country as complex as ours. I mean, even setting aside, for a moment, the fact that we incarcerate more people than any country in the world. I think it’s safe to say that what’s going on in Atlanta is indicative of something about America that goes beyond a training facility. Some asphalts and cops repelling down buildings. I mean, if there is one thing eyewitness covering law enforcement is that overpolicing is not limited to big cities. In fact, it’s safe to say anyone who watches our show knows that both rural communities and urban centers often suffer from the same sense of overreach, that is a common problem with cops anywhere you look.

But there’s something specific that the Cop City controversy makes clear that needs to be acknowledged. Something about how the lines have been drawn between the community and the powers that be, which reveals how policing not just affects us, but in the worst sense it defines us because spending time in Atlanta and witnessing the great wealth and abundance on one hand and the great needs and neglect on the other, I was struck by how the largest for the few does engender fairness for the rest of us. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. What Cop City seems to represent is a particular form of American cruelty that a certain sense surrounds us, but is often not recognized for what it truly is.

All right. What am I saying here? Well, when you really drill down into all the stories we’ve explored tonight, when you truly take the time to fathom how policing works its way through so many facets of our society, it truly becomes something beyond the realm of making arrests, writing traffic tickets, or fighting crime. What you see instead is a different type of power that deeply impacts how we see ourselves. It makes possible the world where cops can storm into your house without cause, or as in the case of Chris, or plow over an old-growth forest despite the community voice and clear and just arguments against it.

Well, to explain it, I’m going to use a metaphor, lightning the police power on display in Atlanta and elsewhere as a funhouse mirror, so to speak. The type of reflection that distorts or contorts your appearance to make you either look garish or exaggeratedly thin or otherwise alien to yourself and others. It’s something that is a relic of another era, but I think can be applied to the debate over policing today. So let’s imagine what the Cop City conversation might be if the so-called funhouse mirror policing did not distort our perspective of what’s important and what is not. Because without police partisans in the mainstream media always positing cops is the thin blue line between chaos and civilization, maybe the whole debate over Cop City would just seem absurd. Maybe without the distortion lens of law enforcement, the Atlanta Police Foundation would not be funneling millions of dollars into a faux nightclub.

Why? Because it would look ridiculous in a city with an affordable housing crisis so acute that rents are rising faster than people’s incomes. Maybe paving over an old-growth forest so cops can chase each other around would be insulting to the people who care about the futures of all neighborhoods, not just the rich, because their demands for a better world to live and would not be disqualified by that same lens. Maybe any discussion of pumping $90 million so police can dress up in SWAT gear would seem ridiculous if, at the same time, gentrification wasn’t forcing generational families out of Atlanta so developers could build more condos for the rich. And maybe without the funhouse mirror effect, the activists who fought back against the very idea of cop city would not be facing a 30-year sentence for engaging in dissent. And prosecutors would not be talking about RICO charges against people for having a number to call when they need bail written on their arms. Because the only way any of this makes sense is if police, not us, define both who we are and our political agency.

My point is that the preponderance of policing only helps to justify all the unjust ideas I reiterated. Without the funhouse mirror of law enforcement, the fair and equitable demands of a community could not be distorted into terrorism or conspiracy or some other misleading fiction police create. And I mean fiction with a capital F because that’s what those charges are. I think what I’m trying to say here is something that the famous French philosopher, Albert Camus, pointed out decades ago that the more unequal a relationship is, the more cruel the oppressor must become. And when the demands of the police for a special training center can turn the pushback from residents into organized crime and lead the leveling of a historic forest, well, I mean, what else can you call it but the cruelest punishment there is?

Let’s just remember that when we talk about a proposal like Cop City, we are not just talking about steel and pavement. We’re not just talking about a story. Let’s keep in mind that this story starts with a single and significant narrative. The voices of the community that will have to live with it and don’t have the right to say no. They don’t have the right to protest. They don’t have the agency to dissent. They don’t have the right to exist in opposition to policing. They are not citizens of a democracy endowed with [inaudible 01:20:35] rights. They’re simply troublemakers, defined, charged, and otherwise disposed by the powerful mirror of American policing.

That’s why if there is one takeaway from this whole idea of police power, both in Atlanta and beyond, is set the psychology of policing infiltrates how we think about ourselves. It defines the parameters of the debate and it codifies neglect, the hubris, and the general anti-democratic ethos that has defined the drive to build Cop City and the growth of overpolicing across the country. So back to the question at the top of the show, is America becoming Cop City? Well, I think that’s up to us. And let’s make sure it doesn’t happen. Or just listen to the words of a resident of Atlanta named Aaron Thorpe who spoke to us on this very topic.

Aaron Thorpe:

Cop City. I’ve been saying this Cop City’s a dark harbinger of the future to come as I was saying. The state’s only response is to crack down with the armed dogs of capital, which is the police. And it doesn’t matter whether you live in Atlanta. It doesn’t matter whether you’re white. It doesn’t matter … I mean, I guess if you’re of rich class, you have political and economic reasons why you wouldn’t. But then at the end of the day, Cop City is the only response that they have.

Taya Graham:

I think that was well said, and thank you for letting me get that off my chest. So I do have a few shout-outs. First to the folks behind the scenes helping to make this possible, Kayla Rivara and David Hebden. Thank you.

Stephen Janis:

Thank you very much, David and Kayla.

Taya Graham:

And thank you-

Stephen Janis:

That was one … You guys did a great job. Thank you.

Taya Graham:

Yes. And thank you Noli D and Lacey R.

Stephen Janis:

Yep. Thank you, Noli D and Lacey R.

Taya Graham:

We appreciate your help and support tonight. And I have to thank the folks of the city of Atlanta who were kind enough to speak with us and make time for us. And I’m going to say hi to my Aunt Mary and Margaret Ann who I got to spend some time with. Hi, Aunt Mary. Hi, Margaret Ann. And hi, Kelly McAdams, who we got to see in Georgia.

Stephen Janis:

Yes.

Taya Graham:

A talented person who we miss very much.

Stephen Janis:

Yes, we miss Kelly very much.

Taya Graham:

And now, for a big thank you to our Patreons. And if you have ever been a patron, past or present, I’m going to thank you because the fact that you reach out to us means the world and we will always appreciate you, especially PR associate producers, David K, John ER, Lewis P, Chris R, and PR super friends matter of rights, Shane Bushta and Pineapple Girl. Okay. So now, here’s the big list. Shannon … Woo, I’m not going to do the last names because you guys never tell me if I can use your full last names, even though you give them to me. So I’m going to only do an initial because I want to protect your privacy. So if you do want the full names, you guys have to tell me. Okay. And just again, the Patreon is Accountability Reports. So we appreciate your support because it helps make possible for us to do things like go to Atlanta.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

So thank you.

Stephen Janis:

For me to have a tent.

Taya Graham:

Or for Stephen to get his tent and reusable water bottle.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

Okay. Now, back to our patrons, Shannon P, Cameron J, matter of rights, Farmer J in USA, Joseph P, Marvin G, Kimmycat P, Dir Devil, Nope, Kurt A, Patty, Angela Tru T, David K, Social Nationalist, David B, Marsha E, John ER, Daniel W, Zera M, Louie, William TG, DB. Okay, DB McCraig because the first part is initials. Okay. Sushant, Kemi, John K, Chris R, XXXX, Potshot, Kenneth Lawrence K, Steven B, Blibitz, Cindy K, Dante Kipky S, Sesco S, John M, Pineapple Girl, Keith Bernard M, Joe 6, 6 Estate AZ, John M, Gary T, Janet K, Rhyme P, Mark William L, Noli D, Kyle R, Guy B, Shane Bushta, Calvin M, Stephen D, Ron F, Alan J, Tre P, Julius Geezer, Omar O, Umesh H, John P, Ryan, Lacy R, Rod B, Douglas P, Andrea JO, RBMH, Siggy Young, Stephen J, Michael Steven L, Default Urine, Celest DS, PT, Just My 2 Cents, Talier B, Peter J, Sean B, KA, Joel A, Tim R, Larry L, Ronald H, Tamer A, Artemis LA, John K, Dante KS, Jimmy Touchdown, True To Blibe, Kenny G, E is circle of the quantum note, Brian M, Byron M, Felonious P, Loretta S, Mike K, and Mike K. Thank you all for being awesome, patrons-

Stephen Janis:

Wait, did you say Nope?

Taya Graham:

Nope, yes.

Stephen Janis:

Nope.

Taya Graham:

Nope. Yes. Nope.

Stephen Janis:

Nope.

Taya Graham:

Nope.

Stephen Janis:

Nope. What?

Taya Graham:

Yes.

Stephen Janis:

Okay.

Taya Graham:

We have some very creative folks.

Stephen Janis:

Yes, I would say very much so, very creative.

Taya Graham:

And I just have to say, I appreciate everyone who stuck around for the livestream tonight. We had a few moments of technical difficulties, but you were kind to me, you were patient with me, and I want you to know how much we appreciate you. And I just want to say, although Stephen will be going outdoors.

Stephen Janis:

I will?

Taya Graham:

Yes.

Stephen Janis:

Really?

Taya Graham:

Very soon.

Stephen Janis:

I don’t think so.

Taya Graham:

Look, I told them that if you got 20 states, Stephen should stay inside. You would get to stay inside. The people have spoken because only three people said you should stay inside.

Stephen Janis:

Are you kidding me?

Taya Graham:

Yep.

Stephen Janis:

What?

Taya Graham:

Yeah.

Stephen Janis:

All the work I did tonight, I don’t get to stay inside.

Taya Graham:

You know what the thing is, they know that you’re a man of the streets, that you’re a hardnosed investigative reporter and you need to be out there getting the story, working hard.

Stephen Janis:

Yeah.

Taya Graham:

Okay?

Stephen Janis:

Walking around city hall for 24 hours. That really gets a lot of stories.

Taya Graham:

Look, you’re the one who told me how much you learned beating the streets of Baltimore City, right?

Stephen Janis:

That’s true. Okay.

Taya Graham:

All right.

Stephen Janis:

All right. Fair enough.

Taya Graham:

You got to give the people what they want, Stephen.

Stephen Janis:

Yes, you do. Okay.

Taya Graham:

All right. And on that note, I just want to tell you all, thank you so much for joining us tonight, and as always, be safe out there.

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