Ezinye izinhlangano zezindaba, okuhlanganisa ne-The Intercept, banikele ngezinsizakusebenza ezinkulu ekubikeni ngezici ezibalulekile zengobo yomlando yama-imeyili kasihlalo womkhankaso kaClinton uJohn Podesta ashicilelwe ngesonto eledlule ngabakwaWikiLeaks. Imibhalo eminingi evela kuleyo ngobo yomlando isikhanyisele kakhulu ngezinqubo zokucabanga kanye nokuziphatha okuyimfihlo ngaphambilini kwabasizi abaphezulu bomkhankaso kaClinton kanye nekhandidethi uqobo. Yize kusaphikiswana ngokubaluleka kwezindaba ezithile, akunakuphikwa ukuthi okuningi kwalokho kudalulwa kunikeza umbono obalulekile ngezisebenzi zokukhankasa ezisebenzisa amandla amakhulu kwezombusazwe futhi, kusukela ngoJanuwari wonyaka ozayo, okungenzeka zibe phakathi kwabanamandla kakhulu. izikhulu emhlabeni.
Naphezu kokuvumelana kwakhe nalezo ziphakamiso, umbhali nesishoshovu uNaomi Klein ukholelwa ukuthi kukhona izinsongo ezingathi sína kubumfihlo bomuntu siqu kanye nezinye izimiso zezombusazwe ezibucayi ezibangelwa ukugebenga kwalolu hlobo, ikakhulukazi uma kuhambisana nokushicilelwa ngokungakhethi kwama-imeyili omuntu siqu.
Iqiniso lokuthi umuntu ama-imeyili akhe antshontshiwe usebenzisa amandla abalulekile linganciphisa okunye kwalokho kukhathazeka, kodwa, ukholelwa ukuthi, akukususi ukude. Futhi ukholelwa ukuthi nakuba isevisi yomphakathi yenziwe ngokubika kwamanye alawa ma-imeyili, izinhlangano zabezindaba (kuhlanganise ne-The Intercept) azizange zigcizelele ngokwanele ubungozi bobumfihlo bomuntu siqu obubangelwa ukugetshengwa kwebhokisi lokungenayo le-imeyili lothile.
Ngasekuqaleni kwaleli sonto, mina no-Klein saxoxa ngemibono yakhe nokukhathazeka kwakhe ngalezi zindaba. Ingxoxo ihlelwe kancane yaba yi-podcast yemizuzu engama-30, ongayilalela kumdlali ongenhla. Okulotshiweyo nakho kuhlinzekiwe. U-Klein, ngokungaguquki, ucabangela kakhulu futhi unokuqonda, ngakho-ke ngikholelwa ukuthi ingxoxo kufanele ilalele.
Lo mbhalo uhlelelwe isikhala nokucaca.
GLENN GREENWALD: Sawubona, lo ngu-Glenn Greenwald we-The Intercept, futhi ngijabule kakhulu ngokuthi isivakashi sami namuhla singesinye sezintatheli ezinethonya neziphumelele kakhulu emhlabeni, izishoshovu, nezihlakaniphi, okungenzeka futhi ukuba umngane wami omkhulu, uNaomi Klein. Sawubona, Nawomi. Ngiyabonga kakhulu ngokuzinika isikhathi sokukhuluma namuhla.
U-NAOMI KLEIN: Sawubona Glenn, kumnandi ukuba nawe.
I-GG: Ngakho-ke umfutho oyinhloko wale ngxoxo ukuthi emasontweni amabili noma amathathu edlule, kuye kwavela le nkulumompikiswano enomoya eshukunyiswa ukushicilelwa kwezinkulungwane eziningi zama-imeyili avela ku-akhawunti kasihlalo womkhankaso kaClinton uJohn Podesta.
Akekho owazi ngokuqinisekile ukuthi ubani ngempela owagqekeza. Uhulumeni wase-US uthi uhulumeni waseRussia uyabandakanyeka - nakuba bengavezanga ubufakazi balokho - kodwa kunabantu abaningi abakholelwa ukuthi iRussia okungenani yayithinteka ngandlela thize. Noma ngabe ngubani okwenzile uyinike iWikiLeaks, okuthi esikhundleni sokucupha noma yikuphi kuyo noma azame ukuthola ukuthi yini ezozuzisa umphakathi nokuthi yini engeke iwusize, uvele wakuthatha konke wakulahla ku-inthanethi.
Futhi kulokhu engikubonile, okungenani, inkulumo-mpikiswano eye yavela - njengoba izinhlangano zezindaba zidlula kule nqolobane futhi ziqala ukubika ngezinto ezicabanga ukuthi zibalulekile futhi ezithakazelisa umphakathi - kwakuyinkulumo-mpikiswano ehlukene. Ngakho-ke ngakolunye uhlangothi, unalaba badlali ababangele wonke ama-imeyili kaJohn Podesta - ngaphandle kokubandlulula mayelana nomthelela wabo noma okuqukethwe noma ukuthi babenokuthile okuthakazelisa umphakathi - ukuthi ashicilelwe ku-inthanethi, okungabaduni abahlanganiswe ne-WikiLeaks. .
Bese uba nale mpikiswano ehlukene uma lokho sekwenzekile. Uma lezi zincwadi sezitholakala, ebuhleni nasebubini, yini umsebenzi wezintatheli? Ingabe kufanele bayizibe ngezizathu zokuthi itholwe ngokungemthetho noma ingase ikhuthaze izenzo ezimbi ezifanayo zesikhathi esizayo? Ingabe kufanele balinganisele iqiniso lokuthi kube nokuhlasela okukhulu kobumfihlo ngokumelene nevelu yobuntatheli engavela ngokungangabazeki kwezinye zezinto ezithile? Futhi ngokusobala, thina kwa-Intercept besibambe iqhaza kakhulu kuleyo mpikiswano, ngoba senze isinqumo sokubika okuningi ngemibhalo esikholelwa ukuthi ikhanyisela umuntu okungenzeka abe ngumongameli olandelayo wase-United States.
Ngakho-ke lezo yizingqikithi zenkulumo-mpikiswano - impela kunokungavumelani okuningi phakathi kwazo - kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi nginelukuluku lokwazi ukuthi ucabanga ukuthi leyo yindlela efanele yini yokucabanga ngale nkulumo-mpikiswano, noma ngabe leyo yindlela efanele yokuyiqhuba, noma ngabe kube nezinto ezihlanekezelwe noma ezingakutholi ukunakwa ngokwanele. Ithini imibono yakho iyonke ngalokhu?
NK: Ngilibonga kakhulu ithuba lokukhuluma nawe ngakho. Ngicabanga ukuthi okuningi kwalokho iyona kanye indlela okufanele sicabange ngayo ngakho, kodwa kunezinto ezithile ezidinga ukugcizelelwa kancane. Ngingangeza ngokuthi akukhona nje ukuthi abazange bayilungise futhi bayilahle yonke. Bayayilahla, kodwa bakhipha izindawo zokulahla ukuze kwandiswe umonakalo. Ngakho abagcini nje ngokuthi, “Heyi, ulwazi lufuna ukukhululeka, nakhu konke esinakho. Izintatheli, yibani nosuku lwenkundla, niludlulise.” Babheke ngokusobala ukunakwa kwabezindaba okuphezulu futhi ungakutshela lokho ngokubheka okuphakelayo kwe-WikiLeaks kwe-Twitter nokuthi bayibeka kanjani isikhathi ngaphambi kwezinkulumo-mpikiswano. Manje wonke umuntu usebenzisa ukuvuza njengesikhali sepolitiki, okuhlanganisa nomkhankaso kaClinton, ebesivele siwazi kodwa sinobunye ubufakazi obuningi, ngenxa yalawa ma-imeyili. Bahlezi bekhuluma ngokuputshuza ulwazi ukuze kuzuze bona.
Enye into engingayisho ukuthi ngicabanga ukuthi kunomthwalo wemfanelo othile kuwe njengentatheli - nabanye e-The Intercept - ngoba yinina enisiphathele amafayela we-Snowden, futhi ngingomunye wabantu abaningi ababonga kakhulu lokho okusesihlabathini mayelana namalungelo ethu obumfihlo be-elekthronikhi. Ungomunye wabantu abathathu noma abane emhlabeni abenze okuningi ukuvikela lowo mgomo wezokuxhumana ngogesi — ngoba siphila izimpilo zethu ku-inthanethi, asikwazi ukuhlukanisa lokho nelungelo lethu lobumfihlo, isikhathi. Lokhu kuvuza akukho, ngokubona kwami, esigabeni esifanayo nesokukhishwa kwe-Pentagon Papers noma i-WikiLeaks yangaphambilini njengemibhalo yezohwebo abasaqhubeka nokuvuza, engibonga kakhulu ngayo, ngoba leyo yimibhalo kahulumeni esinelungelo layo. ziwumgogodla wentando yeningi. Ziningi izinto kuleso sigaba.
Kodwa ama-imeyili omuntu siqu - futhi kukhona zonke izinhlobo zezinto zomuntu siqu kulawa ma-imeyili - lolu hlobo lokulahla ngokungakhethi yilokho kanye uSnowden ayezama ukusivikela kukho. Yingakho bengifuna ukuthi ngifune ukukhuluma nawe ngakho, ngoba ngicabanga ukuthi sidinga ukuphinde siwuqinise lowo mgomo.
Njengezintatheli - njengoba isikhona - kufanele sidlule kukho futhi sikhulume ngezingxenye ezibalulekile kwezombusazwe kanye nezindaba. Kodwa ngesikhathi esifanayo, sinomthwalo wemfanelo omkhulu wokusho ukuthi abantu banalo lelo lungelo lokuba yimfihlo. Ngikuzwile ukuvikela [ukuvuza] ngezinga elithile ngezizathu zokuthi laba abantu abanamandla kakhulu. Ngokuqinisekile uPodesta ungumuntu onamandla kakhulu, futhi uzoba namandla kakhulu ngemva kokukhethwa kukaHillary Clinton, uma ekhethiwe, futhi kubonakala sengathi uzoba. Kodwa ngikhathazekile ngokuzithoba kokuthi ngubani ochazwa njengonamandla ngokwanele ukulahlekelwa ubumfihlo bakhe ngoba ngiqinisekile ukuthi baningi abantu emhlabeni abakholelwa ukuthi mina nawe sinamandla ngokwanele ukulahlekelwa ubumfihlo bethu, futhi ngiza lokhu njengentatheli kanye nombhali osebenzise imibhalo eputshuziwe nengacaciswanga ukwenza umsebenzi wami. Bengingeke ngibhale ukuthi “The Shock Doctrine” noma “Lokhu Kushintsha Konke” ngaphandle kwalokho. Kodwa futhi ngiyingxenye yenhlangano yezobulungiswa besimo sezulu, futhi lona umnyakazo ongene ngaphansi kwenani elimangalisayo lokugadwa amaqembu angaphambili axhaswe yimboni kawoyela ezinhlobonhlobo. Sekunabantu abakule nhlangano manje ababhekwe ngabomvu sengathi bangosopolitiki, yonke indawo abaya kuyo.
Ngakho-ke sichaza kanjani amandla? Ngoba uma sithi lokhu KULUNGILE, futhi angisho ukuthi ukushilo - wenze lowo mehluko - kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi sidinga ukukusho kakhulu. Futhi ikakhulukazi wena, njengomfana osilethele amafayela e-Snowden, udinga ukusho kakhulu.
I-GG: Kukhona indida emangalisayo lapha ngandlela thize ngoba bengivikela ukubaluleka kwezindaba zengobo yomlando ye-WikiLeaks ezinyangeni ezimbalwa ezedlule, hhayi nje i-Podesta kodwa nengobo yomlando ye-DNC. Futhi ngike ngavikela i-WikiLeaks esikhathini esidlule, kudala ngaphambi kwengobo yomlando ye-Snowden. Kunama-nuances ambalwa athakazelisa ngempela engicabanga ukuthi abeka inkundla yezinhlobo zokuhlukaniswa okhuthaza ukuthi kudwetshwe.
Ngenkathi ngiqala ukuvikela i-WikiLeaks emuva ngo-2010, enye yezingxabano zami eziyinhloko yayiwukuthi i-WikiLeaks, ngokuphambene nendlela eyayivezwa ngayo umphakathi wezobunhloli base-US nabangane bayo, yayingeyona i-ejenti ekhohlakele egijima ichitha imininingwane ye-sociopathically ku-inthanethi. ngaphandle kokukhathazeka ngokuthi ubani ongase abe sengozini. Futhi empeleni, uma ubheka ukuthi ukukhishwa okukhulu kwe-WikiLeaks kwasingathwa kanjani kusenesikhathi - izingodo zempi yase-Iraq ne-Afghanistan, kanye nezintambo zoMnyango Wezwe - abagcinanga ngokuhlela izinombolo ezinkulu zemibhalo ngezizathu zokuthi ukwenza kanjalo kwakudingeka. ukuze kuvikelwe inhlalakahle yabantu abangenacala, empeleni bacela ukuthi uMnyango WezoMbuso uhlangane nabo ukuze ubasize babone ukuthi hlobo luni lolwazi okufanele lugodlwe ngezizathu zokuthi lungafaka abantu abangenacala engozini.
Ngakho-ke bebengumsekeli oshisekayo noshisekayo waleyo modeli - ukuthi uma uthola amathani olwazi olusesidlangalaleni, unesibopho esihambisanayo sokuvikela hhayi kuphela ukuphepha kwabantu ngokomzimba kodwa futhi nobumfihlo babo. Ngangivame ukubavikela kulokho ngaso sonke isikhathi.
Endaweni ethile, i-WikiLeaks kanye noJulian banquma, futhi bakusho lokhu ngokusobala, ukuthi bashintshe umqondo wabo ngalowo mbuzo - abasakholelwa ekubuyiselweni kabusha noma ekubambeni imibhalo yanoma yiluphi uhlobo.
Ngesikhathi sibika ngezinto ezisetshenziswayo ze-Snowden, asizange nje sithathe ingobo yomlando siyilahle ku-inthanethi, njengoba abantu abaningi bebefuna. Sichithe iminyaka ngokucophelela kakhulu siyilungisa futhi sigcina izingxenye zayo ziyimfihlo ezingase zifake ubumfihlo bomuntu engozini, zilimaze isithunzi sabantu ngokungafanele, noma zibabeke engozini. Futhi i-WikiLeaks yasihlasela esidlangalaleni nangonya iminyaka. Baqhubeka, empeleni, phezu kweqiniso lokuthi sasingabantu ababizwa ngabalindisango bolwazi. Bekungumbono wami njalo - futhi usaqhubeka - ukuthi bekungaba ubuzenzisi obumangalisayo ngathi ukuthi le mibhalo idinga ukubona ukukhanya kwelanga ngoba imfihlo yabantu iyaphazamiseka, bese kuthi ngasikhathi sinye, sikhiphe amaphepha cekela phansi ubumfihlo babantu ngoba bevilapha kakhulu noma abacabangi ukuthi kuyathetheleleka ukuthi badlule futhi balungise.
Ngakho-ke kukhona impikiswano, ngisho naphakathi kwabantu abakholelwa ekuhlelweni okukhulu, ngendlela efanele yokusingatha ulwazi olufana nalolu. Ngicabanga ukuthi i-WikiLeaks cishe noma ngaphansi kuleli qophelo ime yodwa ekukholweni ukuthi lezi zinhlobo zokulahlwa zinokuziphatha okuhle - ungakhathazeki ngokobuntatheli - nje ngokokuziphatha, njengomuntu, kuyathetheleleka. Ngicabanga ukuthi leyo nkulumompikiswano ibinamandla futhi inempilo, futhi ngicabanga ukuthi uqinisile ukuthi kufanele kube kakhulu manje njengoba sinezibonelo eziningi, njengokuvuza kososayensi besimo sezulu, abaphathi bakwaSony, nokunye ukuvuza. ezizayo nakanjani.
Sidinga ukuthola indlela yokusho kokubili ngasikhathi sinye: Izikhungo ezinamandla nabalingisi abanamandla badinga uhlobo lokubeka obala lokhu kuvuza okungakunikeza, kodwa ngasikhathi sinye, ngisho nabantu abasezikhundleni ezinamandla nabanamandla bayaqhubeka nokugcina. ilungelo lobumfihlo, futhi akufanele kube khona ukushicilelwa kwezindaba zomuntu siqu noma izinto ezingahloselwe umphakathi ngokuqondile.
Ingabe yilokho okushoyo uma uthi lokhu kudinga ukugqama? Ingabe yilowo mehluko ocabanga ukuthi ubalulekile?
NK: Ngicabanga ukuthi sinentshisekelo eqinile ekuqinisekiseni kabusha ilungelo lobumfihlo be-elekthronikhi, ikakhulukazi uma sikhuluma ngabantu abangezona izikhulu ezikhethiwe.
Kuyavumelana kakhulu ukuthi iyiphi indlela esiyisebenzisayo ukuchaza amandla, ngoba lelo gama liyavumelana nezimo. Futhi angisho ukuthi ama-imeyili angaphandle kwemingcele - ngicabanga ngama-imeyili aphuma mayelana nokugunyazwa kokuhlushwa ngesikhathi sokuphatha kukaBush. Kodwa lawo bekungama-imeyili athile, afanelekile, kunokuba athi: “Usanda kulahlekelwa yibo bonke ubumfihlo bakho be-elekthronikhi. Silahla yonke into, noma kunalokho, siyilahla ngezigaba ukuze kwandiswe umonakalo.”
Kudingeka sikuvikele lokho ngoba ngokuqinisekile emgudwini wesimo sezulu, sibhekene namandla azohlala enezinsiza eziningi kakhulu kunezomnyakazo. Singabhala ngemfihlo ama-imeyili ethu, futhi kufanele sibethele ama-imeyili ethu, kodwa isimiso kusafanele sivikelwe ngoba siyalahlekelwa uma lokhu kuba nokufiphala.
I-GG: Kodwa ake ngikubuze lokhu. Siqale ngokuthi ngalokhu kuvuza okuthile, ngenxa yefilosofi yeWikiLeaks, isigebengu sangena sabamba yonke into, ngezinye izikhathi abagebengu bazokwenza noma ngabe banezinhloso ezinhle - ngoba awunaso isikhathi sokubamba kuphela Okubalulekile, uthemba ukuthi abantu obanikeza indaba bazokwenza lokho. Leyo bekuyinkolelo-mbono ka-Snowden: Ngizothatha okuningi ngangokunokwenzeka kodwa ngenze isiqiniseko sokuthi ngikunikeza kuphela izintatheli ezithembisa ukuvikela okubhaliwe futhi zenze umphakathi ubone izinto okufanele uzibone, hhayi lokho okungafanele ukubone. .
Ake sithi ubunomgebenga othembekile owathi, “Ngizothatha wonke ama-imeyili ka-John Podesta futhi ngizowalanda nje. Futhi esikhundleni sokuwanikeza i-WikiLeaks, ngizowanika le nhlangano futhi ngitshele le nhlangano, 'Engifuna ukwenze ukudlula kuzo futhi ukhiphe labo lapho uJohn Podesta ekhuluma ngobunzima bomzwelo abasebenzi. amalungu aba nazo, noma izingxoxo zomuntu siqu anazo namalungu omndeni noma abangane, bese ukhetha lezo ezisikhanyisela ngempela ngalokho okwenziwa umkhankaso kaClinton othinta inqubomgomo yomphakathi nezinkulumo.’” Ingabe ubungangabaza ngaleyo nqubo?
NK: Cha ngicabanga ukuthi bazibekele izinkulumo zasebhange ezizophuma ngoba benqabile ukuzikhulula. Bekufanele ngabe bazikhiphile, futhi okujabulisayo ukuthi olunye ulwazi olufanele, olufanele izindaba alukho kuthrafikhi ye-imeyili — lukumadokhumenti anjalo. Noma, ngokwesibonelo, okunamathiselwe okuwumbhalo wezingxoxo zika-Hillary Clinton ngaphandle kweminyango evaliwe nabaholi bezabasebenzi lapho ethi izishoshovu zesimo sezulu kufanele “ziphile” kunokuza emicimbini yakhe. Akuyona i-imeyili leyo. Kimina, lokho akungeni esigabeni esifanayo. Bengingeke ngibe nenkinga ngayo uma ikhethiwe.
Kuphinde kube yindlela ekhishwa ngayo, ukuze kwandiswe ngokusobala umonakalo, kanye nobudedengu mayelana nemiphumela yalokho uma kuqokwa uTrump. Ubhale ukuthi kuyingozi kangakanani ukuthi izinhlangano zabezindaba zithathe indlela yepolitiki engaka kulolu khetho ngoba zingafuni ukuthi uTrump aqokwe, ngakho-ke zenza lokhu okuchaze ngokuthi “ukukhwabanisa kwentatheli.” Ngivumelana nawe.
Kodwa kufanele sivume ukuthi iWikiLeaks yezepolitiki kanye noJulian bakhona kanjani lapha.
I-GG: Kuyathakazelisa. Esingakwenza nje ukuqagela ngoba kuhilela okwenzeka ekhanda lomunye umuntu, kulesi simo, umuntu osezikhathini ezinzima kakhulu, osevaleleke ekamelweni elilodwa iminyaka emihlanu, ongakaze abone. ngaphandle eminyakeni eminingi, futhi ngubani ongenalo ikusasa eliningi ongalibona maduze - ngakho-ke kunzima ukuhlola ukuthi kwenzekani engqondweni yomuntu onjalo.
Noma kunjalo, njengomuntu omaziyo uJulian, futhi lokho kufaka phakathi mina nawe ngamazinga ahlukahlukene, uyagculiseka yini ngalo mbono wokuthi inhloso kaJulian lapha yile nhloso evamile yeqembu, ukuthi umane ucheme nomuntu ongenele ukhetho lweRiphabhulikhi esikhundleni sokhetho lweDemocratic Alliance. futhi wenza okusemandleni ukusiza uTrump? Noma ucabanga ukuthi kukhulu ngoJulian efukamele inzondo enkulu yefilosofi ngombuso wase-US kanye ne-US hegemony njengamandla obubi emhlabeni, futhi efuna noma yiliphi ithuba lokuwubukela phansi futhi awushise?
Ngokwezinga u-Hillary Clinton amele ngalo lokho, ukuthi uyisisulu sentukuthelo yakhe, ngaphezu kombono wakhe ngaye njengofisa ukuboshwa futhi ngakho-ke kukhona le ntukuthelo yomuntu siqu - leyo njongo akuyona indlela uPaul Begala afuna ngayo iDemocratic Alliance. kanye neRiphabhulikhi ukuthi ilahlekelwe. Angicabangi ukuthi u-Julian unazo lezi zisusa ezilula zeqembu. Ngicabanga ukuthi kumayelana nokufuna ukubona izinto zivutha, ngenxa yenhlanganisela yefilosofi yezombusazwe kanye nokucasuka komuntu siqu. Ngifisa ukwazi ukuthi ucabangani ngalokho.
NK: Angazi. Angimazi kahle. Sengike ngahlangana naye futhi anginaso isiqiniseko sokuthi ngingakuphendula lokho. Kufanele ngithembeke ngokuphelele kuwe, Glenn, empeleni nginovalo ngakho, ngoba ngokusobala kunento ye-vendetta eqhubekayo, okuqondakalayo, ngoba uMnyango Wezwe ka-Hillary Clinton unesibopho esikhulu ngokuntula kwakhe inkululeko. Ngakho ngiyakuqonda lokho, kodwa ngesikhathi esifanayo, u-Assange akuyena yedwa umuntu olahlekelwe inkululeko yakhe ngenxa yokumelela izinkolelo zakhe.
Ngisanda kukhuluma nomfana ogama lakhe linguRodney Watson, osechithe iminyaka eyisikhombisa esontweni elisenkabeni yedolobha iVancouver East Side, naye engaboni ngaphandle, engayiboni indodana yakhe, ngoba yenqabile ukuyolwa e-Iraq. Waya e-Iraq, wabona ubugebengu bempi, wenqaba ukubuyela emuva, futhi wabalekela eCanada. Ufuna ushwele. Uthukuthele. Kodwa akazami ukuyishisa - lesi isivimbeli sempi esinesimiso. Kungiphatha kabi lokhu okubonakala ngizimisele ngokuwushisa. Ingiphatha kabi indlela yokubona lolu khetho ngeso lomuntu ekubeni izigxobo ziphezulu ngendlela emangalisayo. Sonke sinezinkinga zomuntu siqu - hhayi kakhulu njengo-Assange, ngokusobala - esitshale kulokhu, kodwa abantu abaningi babona isithombe esikhulu.
I-GG: Kuyathakazelisa, lokhu kuyishisa imodeli. Ngikhumbula omunye umehluko wokuqala u-Edward Snowden awudweba ngesikhathi sihlangana eHong Kong - ukuthi angaqhubeki nokudweba lo mehluko we-Assange-Snowden, kodwa empeleni uyisisekelo engicabanga ukuthi abantu abaningi abawunakanga.
Waveza iphuzu elithakazelisayo lapho ngimbuza: Unalolu lwazi olubucayi ngendlela emangalisayo, okungathi uma lushicilelwa ku-inthanethi lungacekela phansi ngokushesha izinombolo ezinkulu zezinhlelo zokugada zase-US, okuhlanganisa nalezo ongazithandi kakhulu. Kungani ungakwenzanga lokho nje? Kungani ungavele uyilayishe ku-inthanethi? Kungani ubudinga ukusebenzisana nathi, ukuthi kube nezintatheli ezingomaphakathi nabaxazululi ukuze kucutshungulwe lolu lwazi bese nithatha izinqumo ezandleni zenu mayelana nokuthi umphakathi uzokubonani nangeke yini?
Futhi wathi: Cabanga ngendlela emangalisayo yenhlalo yabantu, ukuthi bekungaba yi-narcissism kanjani kimi, u-Edward Snowden, ukuthi nginqume ukuthi nginelungelo, ngiyedwa, lokubhubhisa zonke lezi zinhlelo ngoba nje angizithandi.
Uthe akafuni ukucekela phansi lutho, kunalokho inhloso yakhe wukuthatha ulwazi olunikeza abantu emhlabeni wonke amandla okwazi ukuthi ohulumeni babo benzani, kwenziwani kwi-internet, ukuze labo abantu, ngokwentando yeningi nangamaqoqo, bangakwazi ukukhetha ukuthi kufanele yini lezi zinhlelo ziqhubeke? Ngasiphi isimo? Ingabe siyazidinga izivikelo? Ingabe sidinga ukuhlehla? Ngabe siyayidinga inhlangano yezakhamizi? Konke lokho. Wazizwa engakhululekile ngombono wokuthi indima yakhe ingase ibe yinoma yini enye ngaphandle komgqugquzeli wolwazi oluvumela abanye ukuba benze lokho kukhetha.
Ngicabanga ukuthi u-Julian uzibheka ngokucacile kanye nobushoshovu bakhe ngokungaphezulu, ngicabanga ukuthi ungakubiza ngokuthi kunolaka, futhi nangendlela eyedwa. Ukuthi wanelisekile futhi ukholelwa ukuthi unegunya lokushisa izinto phansi - futhi ngezinye izikhathi izikhungo eziyizenzo zobubi zangempela - futhi lapho zisha, ukuthi ungaphikisa ukuthi empeleni umcimbi omuhle emhlabeni.
Kodwa futhi kukhona ukukhathazeka okwedlulele kakhulu ngokunikeza amandla amaningi kumuntu oyedwa. Kuyaxaka uma kubhekwa ukuthi ihlazo le-NSA kanye nawo wonke lawa amanye amahlazo avela embonweni wokuthi idlanzana labantu, ngasese, ngaphandle kokuziphendulela, belithatha lezi zinqumo. Futhi manje usunabanye abantu abazenza izitha zabo bazakhela uhlaka olufanayo.
NK: Yingakho ngithi nginovalo. Angikhululekile ngomuntu osebenzisa amandla angaka.
Angikhululekile uma kuthiwa, kodwa futhi angikhululekile uma kungabantu noma izikhungo. Angithandi abantu abathatha izinqumo ngokusekelwe kuma-vendettas ngoba umyalezo ewuthumelayo uthi: “Uma ungiwela, lokhu kungenzeka kuwena.” Lowo umlayezo osongelayo okufanele uwuthumele. Manje ngiyavuma ukuthi lokhu kungase kudlule onqenqemeni, kodwa ngiqinisekile ukuthi akumina ngedwa onalowo mcabango, futhi ngicabanga ukuthi kufanele sivume ukuthi lena yindlela ukwesaba okubhebhetheka ngayo. Akuzona izifunda kuphela ezikwaziyo ukuthumela lowo mlayezo .Izinga lokuzazisa lingenza ngingakhululeki uma ngibheka indima yokuzazisa kulo mjikelezo wokhetho futhi abantu abacabanga ukuthi lolu khetho lumayelana nabo. Asimdingi omunye umuntu okuphatha kanjalo.
I-GG: Ngaqala ngathi -
NK: Ngifuna nje ukwengeza okunye, okuyindlela ochaza ngayo ukunakekela u-Edward Snowden aphatha ngayo lolo lwazi yingakho ebonwa njengeqhawe emhlabeni jikelele, kungani lezi zambulo bezibaluleke kakhulu, kungani engumuntu onjalo. guy lula ukuvikela esekelwe isimiso. Futhi yingakho kubaluleke kakhulu kuwena, njengomuntu oke wasebenza - kanye noLaura [Poitras] - eduze kakhulu naye, ukuthi usho izinto ozishoyo manje.
I-GG: Angifuni ukuya phambili okungenani lapho ngicabanga ukuthi izinto kufanele zibe khona. U-Chelsea Manning naye uthathwa njengeqhawe; nakuba indlela ukwaziswa kwakhe okwanyatheliswa ngayo, ekuqaleni, yayikhula futhi icophelela, yagcina ishicilelwe ngokungakhethi. Kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi kunezinhlobo zolwazi lapho lokhu kukhathazeka okuvezayo, engikwabelana ngakho, kungaphoqeleki kangako.
Ukhuluma ngezingodo zamasosha ezempi achaza nje lokho abakubona nsuku zonke ensimini e-Iraq nase-Afghanistan. Ukushicilela lokho akunayo ngempela imithelela eminingi yobumfihlo ngendlela ibhokisi lokungenayo le-imeyili eliyimfihlo elingenza ngayo. Okufanayo nezintambo zenxusa - kungase kubangele amahloni phakathi kwamazwe, futhi kungase kube nezinye izizathu zokungakwenzi, kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi izinhlobo ezahlukene zezingobo zomlando zethula izinhlobo ezahlukene zokukhathazeka kobumfihlo. Uma ukhuluma ngokugebenga ibhokisi lokungenayo le-imeyili yomuntu siqu - nakuba benamandla impela futhi ezinyangeni ezintathu bazobe sebeyinduna yabasebenzi base-United States White House - kusenemithelela engathi sína yobumfihlo ngokuyilahla ngokungakhethi, futhi inkinga ukuthi lokhu kuzoqhubeka. Akukho okuningi okungenziwa ngakho ngoba laba bagebengu kanye nama-WikiLeaks bakholelwa kulo modeli.
NK: Ngicabanga ukuthi into esemqoka esiyifundile kulawa ma-imeyili ukuthi abantu abaseduze no-Hillary Clinton bakhohlakele futhi banenkohlakalo njengoba besicabanga ukuthi, ingxenye enkulu, nakho konke ukungqubuzana kwentshisekelo. Angicabangi ukuthi sifunda inani elikhulu. Uzakwenu u-Lee Fang ubhale ku-Twitter izolo ukuthi ama-imeyili e-WikiLeaks akhombisa ukuthi u-Hillary uyawuhlonipha futhi uyayazisa imibono yabantu abacebile, abagqugquzeli, abasekeli abaqotho - kuyilapho izishoshovu zihluleka.
Ekwenzayo nje ukuqinisa lokho ngoba okumele ukwenze ukubuka indlela aphatha ngayo izishoshovu zeBlack Lives Matter emkhankasweni - indelelo enkulu. Indlela avele aphimise ngayo amathe athi “Kuyangikhathaza lokhu” kusishoshovu sesimo sezulu esisemusha esambuza ngemali yakhe kaphethiloli. Besazi lokhu.
I-GG: Besazi -
NK: Siyayiqinisa. Uma intengo yokuthi iqiniswe, noma abantu abaningi bazi, iwona mqondo wokuthi uma usungene kwezombusazwe ulahlekelwa yimfihlo, ukukhathazeka kwami ukuthi abantu abahloniphekile babone lokhu abangenawo lawa magugu futhi lokhu kungqubuzana kwezintshisekelo kuzovele kuphumelele. hamba, “Ayikho indlela engizongena ngayo kwezombusazwe. Ngeke ngiluyeke ubumfihlo bami.” Ngazi abantu abaningi abazizwa ngaleyo ndlela.
I-GG: Sithathe lo mugqa obalulekile wokuthi uma usebenzisa amandla omphakathi - amandla omphakathi okusho ukuthi uyisikhulu esiphethe amandla owanikwa umphakathi, futhi asetshenziswa phezu kwawo - nakanjani udela inani elikhulu lalokho izakhamizi ezijwayelekile ezingakwenza. ujabulele njengemfihlo, ngaphansi komthetho nje. Sesivele sakhe uhlaka lapho kunjalo.
NK: Kodwa-ke unolwazi. Ngicabanga ukuthi abantu abangazikhathaza ngakho wukulahlekelwa ubumfihlo babo.
I-GG: Enye yezinto okungenzeka kahle kakhulu yenzeke kuzo zonke lezi zigebengu - futhi uma ubuyela emuva ufunde amafilosofi nemibono ye-WikiLeaks kusenesikhathi, kuyahambisana nakho - ukuthi lapho abantu beqala ukwesaba ukuthi ama-imeyili abo azophela. kugqekeziwe futhi kusesidlangalaleni, kancane bazosebenzisa ama-imeyili. Bazovele bayeke ukusebenzisa ama-imeyili kunoma yini engaphandle kokuthenga ngekheshi, futhi izikhungo zizovalwa kakhulu. Ngeke bakwazi ukuxhumana ngaphakathi. UJulian wacabanga ukuthi lokho kwakuyinto enhle kakhulu ngoba leyo kwakuyindlela ayefuna ukubenza buthaka ngayo—ngokwenza izinto zibe sobala kangangokuthi baphuphutheke njengesikhungo esinegunya.
Kodwa ngivumelana nawe ngokuphelele ukuthi kunokukhathazeka okujulile mayelana nobumfihlo bomuntu ngamunye okunyathelwa phansi ngalokhu kuputshuka futhi ngokuqinisekile nalokhu okuzayo. Futhi mhlawumbe asikacabangi ngokwanele, ikakhulukazi ngoba okugcina kwenzekile ukuvuza okwenzekayo; izintatheli ezinjengami zikhuluma ngomlomo ukuthi kubi kakhulu ukuthi azizange zicushwe, bekufanele; bese wonke umuntu eqala ukumba kuzo ukuze athole izindaba ezisematheni. Mhlawumbe bekuyivuza leyo ndlela, mhlawumbe akunakwa ngokwanele kuyo, kodwa angiqiniseki ukuthi iyini impendulo, ngoba inqobo nje uma amandla ekhona, ngicabanga ukuthi abantu bazoqhubeka nokukwenza.
NK: Anginasiqiniseko futhi ngaphandle kokulayisha ngaphambili iqiniso lokuthi sikholelwa ukuthi abantu banelungelo lobumfihlo be-elekthronikhi. Indaba ayikho emthethweni; njengoba ushilo, sithembele ekuvuzeni okungekho emthethweni ngokobuchwepheshe ukuze uthole ulwazi olubaluleke ngendlela emangalisayo. Kodwa kunomehluko phakathi kokuthi siphila izimpilo zethu nge-imeyili manje, futhi sisebenzisa lokhu ngendlela esikhuluma ngayo ocingweni noma mathupha. Futhi uma sikuyeka lokho, sinikela ngenani elikhulu.
I-GG: Zonke lezo zingxoxo zango-2013 ezimayelana nezingozi zokucekelwa phansi kobumfihlo nguhulumeni ngokuqinisekile zisebenza ekucekeleni phansi ubumfihlo yilaba badlali abangenamthetho abagebenga futhi bashicilele ukuxhumana kwabantu okuyimfihlo ngokungakhethi. Nalokho kubulala ubumfihlo ngendlela ejulile ngempela. Futhi kunzima ukukhathalela omunye kodwa hhayi omunye.
NK: Kunzima kancane ukubona ukuthi siphuma kanjani kulokhu. Angiqiniseki ukuthi lokhu kuyaphi.
I-GG: Ngicabanga ukuthi ukuphela kwecala engicabanga ngakho - enye yezinhloso eziyinhloko zika-Edward Snowden bekungekona nje ukukhombisa umhlaba ukuthi ubumfihlo babo bube sengozini kangakanani futhi ukuxhumana kwabo kusengcupheni, kodwa ukufundisa abantu ukuthi bangazivikela kanjani kukho, njengalokho. abanikazi bezindlu baya ngokuya beqaphela isidingo sama-alamu asekhaya, noma ukwakha uthango, noma ukwakha imiphakathi ukuze bayigcine iphephile. Kunezinyathelo izinhlangano ezingazithatha ukwenza kube nzima kakhulu ukuthi lokhu kwenzeke.
Enye yezinto eziphawuleka kakhulu ukuthi abantu abanamandla kakhulu - njengomkhankaso kaClinton, ngisho nabaholi bezepolitiki eBrazil, lapho bekunemibiko eminingi ngo-Snowden nangendlela ababekeke ngayo - kubonakala sengathi abazange bakuthathele phezulu lokho.
Akugculisi futhi kuwuhlobo lwempendulo ehambisanayo, kodwa nokho kuyiqiniso ukuthi lapho ubona kakhulu lokhu, ngithemba kakhulu ukuthi abantu bayasiqonda isidingo sokuqala ukusebenzisa lobu buchwepheshe ukwenza kube nzima kakhulu ukuthi abantu bathole idatha yabo. .
NK: Ngiyavuma, kuyashaqisa ngokuphelele. Khuluma ngobudedengu. Kukhuluma umuzwa wabo wokungajezisi yikho nje engikucabangayo - ukuthi bangabhala kanje kodwa kungaphumi.
I-GG: Bazi kangcono kunanoma ubani ukuthi kulula kangakanani ukuhlola ngoba bonke bayingxenye yemisebenzi eyenzayo.
NK: Futhi abacabangi ukuthi imithetho iyasebenza kubo. Inkinga ziyasebenza kithina sonke.
I-GG: Uqinisile.
Nokho, lokhu kube usizo ngempela, Nawomi. Kimina mathupha, bengilokhu ngibuyela emuva kule dichotomy engaqala ngayo, njengokuthi “Oh yebo, KULUNGILE, i-WikiLeaks nezigebengu zenza okungalungile. Bengingeke ngikwenze, kodwa noma kunjalo, manje asiqhubeke nomsebenzi wokwenza ubuntatheli.” Ngicabanga ukuthi uqinisile ukusho ukuthi leyo akuyona impendulo eyanele ngempela, noma okungenani akukhona ukugcizelela okwanele kule ngxenye yokuqala yezibalo, edinga ukunakwa okwengeziwe.
NK: Ngiyabonga ngokunginika ithuba lokuxoxa nawe, bekumnandi ngempela.
I-GG: Kuhlale kumnandi, Naomi, asikwenze noma nini.
I-ZNetwork ixhaswa kuphela ngokuphana kwabafundi bayo.
Nikela
2 Amazwana
Ngithola le ngxoxo phakathi kwezishoshovu ezimbili eziphambili zamalungelo abantu nababhali iphazamisa emazingeni amaningi.
I-1) Uno-Klein ophikisana namalungelo obumfihlo wabacebile nabanamandla, kuyilapho eqinisweni, basebenzisa ubudlelwano bangasese kanye nemfihlo ukuze bantshontshe futhi bacindezele thina sonke.
2) U-Greenwald (no-Snowden) baphikisana “nokulahlwa” kwedatha “eyimfihlo” (evela emkhakheni kahulumeni kanye nabalingisi bomphakathi), kucatshangwa ukuthi azikho izintatheli (noma yimuphi omunye umuntu) onamandla anele okusebenzisa idatha ngokuzibophezela.
Ngaphansi kwakho konke lokhu, kunencazelo yokuthi kunezinto ezinhle ezenziwa uMbuso Wezokuphepha Kazwelonke (manje osezweni lonke). Ngingabuza, kalula nje, ziyini?
Ngaphansi kwezimiso nezinqubo zayo zokuhlela ezibuswa ngonxiwankulu, uhlelo lwe-neoliberal global imperialist lucekela phansi amathuba okuphila kwabantu (kanye nokunye) kule planethi.
Ama-Progressives kanye nama-leftists akufanele ahlukanise amaqabunga etiye nama-imeyili abethelwe ukuze bathole okuhle kunoma yikuphi kwalokho, i-IMHO.
Ngaleso sikhathi, unikeza ilayisense ekushushisweni okuqhubekayo kuka-Assange, fakaza ingcindezi eyalethwa i-Equador ukuba inqamule izixhumanisi zayo ze-inthanethi. Lokhu ngikuthatha njengohlobo lokukhaphela umuntu osembule okuningi okufanele ngabe kwaziwe. Ngicabanga ukuthi ungancoma ukuthi kufanele ngabe unikeze ukuxhumana okugqekeziwe ku-Intercept? Noma i-Guardian? Noma i-NYT? Ngokwazi kwami, azikho izindaba zomuntu siqu ezidalulayo ezingene kwabezindaba. Ngicabanga ukuthi kubalulekile ukumvikela, hhayi ukumhlasela, njengoba ngiqaphela ukuthi kukhona okukhathazayo okuyimfihlo okubalulekile njengoba nixoxa.