โIGaza iyindawo encane esogwini ehlangene no-Israyeli. โฆ Indaba yokuthi abantu bafika kanjani lapho idinga ukuthi sibuyele emuva eminyakeni engama-75.โ
Stephen R. Shalom
[Le inguqulo ehlelwe kancane ye-podcast eyaqoshwa ngo-Oct. 19 futhi yasakazwa ngo-Oct. 22, 2023.]
UMichael Albert: Sawubona, igama lami ngingu-Michael Albert futhi ngingumsingathi we-podcast enesihloko esithi Revolution Z, manje exhasiwe, futhi ingxenye ye-znetwork.org. Manje ngesiqephu sethu sama-252 silandelana, sinesivakashi sethu uStephen Shalom. USteve unguprofesa osethathe umhlalaphansi wesayensi yezepolitiki eWilliam Paterson University eNew Jersey. Usebhodini labahleli be Ipolitiki Entsha futhi uyilungu le-Jewish Voice for Peace. Ukubhala kwakhe ngombuzo we-Israel-Palestine uvele eminyakeni edlule ku-Znet ne-Z Magazine, kanye nezinye izitolo. Ngakho-ke wamukelekile emuva ku-Revolution Z, Steve.
UStephen R. Shalom: Ngiyajabula ukuba lapha.
UMichael Albert: Pho-ke kuthiwani uma siqala ngezinye izisekelo? Ingakanani iGaza, bangaki abantu basePalestine abahlala eGaza futhi bafike kanjani lapho?
UStephen R. Shalom: IGaza iyindawo encane esogwini ehlangana no-Israyeli. Izungezwe uhlangothi olulodwa yiMedithera, ohlangothini olude kanye nohlangothi olufushane olusempumalanga yi-Israel futhi ohlangothini olufushane lwasentshonalanga yiGibhithe. Sekukonke kungamakhilomitha-skwele angu-140, okuyindawo encane okungahlalisa kuyo abantu abayizigidi ezingu-2.3. Ingenye yezindawo ezinabantu abaningi kakhulu emhlabeni.
Indaba yokuthi abantu bafika kanjani lapho idinga ukuthi sibuyele emuva eminyakeni engama-75. Ngaleso sikhathi, iZizwe Ezihlangene zahlukanisa ikoloni laseBrithani - balibiza ngokuthi igunya, kodwa empeleni laliyikoloni - lasePalestine libe yizwe lamaJuda kanye nezwe lasePalestina, futhi lezi kwakungezona izingcezu ezihlangene. Enye yezingcezu kwakuzoba ingxenye yama-Arab yaseGaza. Sekukonke, umbuso wama-Arab wanikezwa - yize wawunezingxenye ezimbili kwezintathu yenani labantu - amaphesenti angama-45 kuphela wendawo. Kwagqashuka impi. Kuningi ongakusho ngaleyo mpi nokuziphatha kwayo. Abantu basePalestine baxoshwa ezindlini zabo, futhi i-Israel yagcina ingekho ngamaphesenti angu-55, kodwa namaphesenti angu-78 ePalestina. Ucezu oluncane olwaluzoba yiGaza lwaba luncane nakakhulu. U-Israyeli wathatha inkatho yezwe elizungezile, ngakho-ke lokho owawunakho kwakuyiGaza Strip. Yayihlala iGibhithe, futhi izingxenye ezintathu kwezine zabantu kwakungebona abantu abazalelwa lapho, kodwa ababaleki basePalestine abavela kwezinye izingxenye zasePalestina ababexoshiwe emakhaya abo.
IGibhithe yaqhubeka nokuphatha iGaza kwaze kwaba ngu-1967, lapho kwakukhona impi yama-Arab-Israel futhi u-Israyeli wabe esenqoba iGaza kanye neWest Bank, kanye ne-East Jerusalem (kanye neSinayi Peninsula yaseGibhithe kanye ne-Golan Heights yaseSiriya). Ngakho-ke lonke igunya laseBrithani lasePalestine manje lase lingaphansi kokulawulwa yi-Israel.
UMichael Albert: U-Israyeli wakuthethelela kanjani ukunqoba iGaza nezinye izindawo?
UStephen R. Shalom: U-Israel uthe, "silwe impi yokuzivikela ngakho-ke lokhu bekuwumphumela waleyo mpi yokuzivikela." Zimbili izinto ongazisho lapha. Enye ukuthi impi yayingavikeli. U-Israyeli wahlasela kuqala. Abantu abaningi emhlabeni wonke babenovalo olukhulu ku-Israyeli omncane ebhekene neGibhithe elikhulu neSiriya neJordani. Kodwa ePentagon nasebuthweni lezempi lakwa-Israel babazi kahle ukuthi u-Israyeli wayenenzuzo yezempi. I-CIA yabikezela uma kunempi, u-Israyeli uzowina kungakapheli isonto. U-Israyeli wahlasela futhi u-Israyeli wanqoba phakathi nesonto. Kodwa nansi into: Ngisho noma ungacabangi ukuthi u-Israyeli wayengumhlukumezi lapha, ngisho noma ucabanga ukuthi u-Israyeli wazivikela ngokumelene neGibhithe, iSiriya, neJordani, lokho akunikezeli isizathu sokugcina abantu baseGaza njengezakhamuzi ezigcwele. Uma iGibhithe lenze iphutha, lijezisa iGibhithe, kodwa lokho akulisusi ilungelo lokuzibusa labantu baseGaza.
UMichael Albert: Kulungile-ke, zinjani izimo zamaPalestine eGaza? Kungani iGaza ibizwa, ngokwesibonelo, ijele elivulekile? Kungani kunomzabalazo wasePalestine wenkululeko nhlobo?
UStephen R. Shalom: Kunomzabalazo wamaPalestine wenkululeko jikelele ngoba emuva ngo-1947, lapho i-UN ihlukanisa iPalestine, kwakufanele kube nezwe lasePalestine kanye nezwe lamaJuda, i-Israel, kodwa alikaze libe khona izwe lasePalestine. I-Israel yanda, iJordani yathatha indawo (iWest Bank), iGibhithe yathatha iGaza, futhi amaPalestine awazange abonakale futhi amaPalestina axoshwa ezindlini zawo. Benziwa ababaleki. Abaningi babo baya eLebanon, abaningi babo baya eJordani, abaningi babo basakazeka emhlabeni wonke, abaningi babo bagxila eWest Bank futhi abaningi babo bagxila eGaza. Kusukela lapho bebelokhu bezabalaza ukuze bazinqumele. I-Israel ifuna ikakhulukazi ukubambelela eWest Bank ngoba leyo inomhlaba obalulekile, iGaza hhayi kangako. Eqinisweni, iminyaka eminingi, eminingi, ama-Israyeli ayenombono wokuthi uma iGaza "izocwila olwandle" kuphela (ngamazwi omholi wakwa-Israyeli u-Yitzhak Rabin) - lokho kungaba kuhle. Babengafuni ukuphatha izigidi ezimbili zamaPalestine, ngakho ngo-2005, ngaphansi kuka-Ariel Sharon, basusa amabutho abo eGaza bawabeka emngceleni weGaza. Ngakho kunjengokungathi unejele futhi onogada bathuthela ngaphandle, umngcele ongaphandle.
Sazi kanjani ukuthi iGaza isagcwele abantu? Yilokho okushiwo yi-UN kanye nazo zonke izinhlangano ezinkulu zamazwe ngamazwe ezisiza abantu: ihlezi imatasa ngoba u-Israyeli ulawula ngokuphelele okungenayo nokuphumayo. Abantu, ukungenisa, ukuthunyelwa ngaphandle. Abakwa-Israel bathi kufanele silawule ukuhwebelana kwabo ngoba asifuni ukuthi kungene izikhali. Iphuzu liwukuthi, balawula nokuthunyelwa kwabo ngaphandle, futhi isizathu esisodwa sokwenza lokho ukuwohloza umnotho waseGaza, futhi iGaza ayifuni. ivumele amachweba ayo. Ngenkathi inqwaba yemikhumbi iza nosizo lwabantu ngo-2010, ilibangise eGaza, u-Israyeli wabahlasela, kwashona abasizi abangu-10. Lena kuseyindawo ehlalwa abantu, futhi i-Israel iqinise izikulufu kusukela ngo-2006, lapho iHamas inqoba ukhetho.
Ngidinga ukukhuluma ngamaqembu ahlukene asePalestine. Kwakukhona ibutho lasePalestine elalibizwa ngokuthi iFatah, okwakuyiqembu elikhulu kwiPalestine Liberation Organization, futhi benza isivumelwano ne-Israel - i-Oslo Accords - abanye abantu basePalestine ababekholelwa ukuthi ingase iholele embusweni wasePalestine. Manje, kunezizathu eziningi zokusola lokho kusukela ekuqaleni. Eqinisweni, izikhulu zakwa-Israel zathi noma iliphi izwe lasePalestine lizoba ngaphansi kwezwe. Ngeke kube isimo sangempela. Kwakufanele kube negunya lasePalestine, elizophatha futhi ligcine ukulawula amaPalestina kuma-Israel. Ngokuhamba kwesikhathi, iziphathimandla zasePalestine zaba nenkohlakalo kakhulu. Futhi kwacaca nakakhulu ukuthi lokhu kwakungeke kuholele embusweni wasePalestine. Kwathi lapho amaPalestine ebamba ukhetho ngo-2006, iHamas yanqoba. Bathola ubuningi. Manje i-Hamas yaphuma kusizinda samaSulumane esisekelwe kwesokudla futhi abantu abaningi abazange basekele uhlelo lwabo noma izikhundla zabo. Kodwa babegula futhi bekhathele ukukhohlakala kweziphathimandla zasePalestine, futhi babegula nakakhulu futhi bekhathele ukuthi igunya lasePalestine lalibonakala lingathuthuki ngandlela thile libheke kuhulumeni.
Amazwe aseNtshonalanga kanye no-Israel aphendule ekunqobeni kweHamas okhethweni ngokufaka unswinyo olunzima eGaza, ezama ukuketula uhulumeni waseGaza. I-Hamas yaxosha abantu basePalestinian Authority besuka eGaza, ngakho waba nalesi simo esingavamile lapho kwakukhona i-Palestinian Authority esebenza eWest Bank ngaphansi kokulawulwa kwe-Israel futhi i-Hamas ilawula iGaza. Lokhu kwenza u-Israyeli wakwazi ukusho ukuthi, uyabona, akukho muntu esingaxoxisana naye, ngoba amaPalestine awavumelani, nakuba noma nini lapho amaPalestina ezama ukufinyelela uhlobo oluthile lwesivumelwano, u-Israel wayewaphihliza ngandlela thize. . Ngakho-ke iHamas ibilokhu iphethe iGaza kusukela kulolo khetho emuva ngo-2006. Abakaze babambe ukhetho olusha kusukela lapho, ngakho asazi ukuthi kuzohamba kanjani okhethweni olukhululekile. Banamandla amakhulu. Futhi eWest Bank, uMahmoud Abbas, umholi wePalestinian Authority, usonyakeni we-18 wehlandla lakhe leminyaka emine. Ngakho-ke abantu basePalestine abasizwa kahle yizikhungo zabo zezepolitiki. EGaza, iHamas ingamandla aphethe.
UMichael Albert: Kulungile, sinalolu daba lokuhlala kanye nokuntuleka kwezinhlelo ezinhle zezombusazwe, ngisho nangaphakathi kwezindawo zasePalestina, kodwa kuthiwani ngesimo sabantu? Kafushane nje, yini amaPalestine okufanele akhononde ngayo? Lokho akukona okungaqondakali, lokho empeleni yizimo zabo.
UStephen R. Shalom: Noma ngabe iziphi izakhiwo zabo zangaphakathi, zonke zingaphansi kombuso wakwa-Israel. Ziyizifundo zamakholoni.
UMichael Albert: Futhi yini umphumela walokho ezimpilweni zabo?
UStephen R. Shalom: Kusho ukuthi abanalo izwi ngokwenzeka kubo. Kusho ukuthi eWest Bank amakhaya abo avame ukuthathwa, umhlaba wabo uyathathwa, izihlahla zabo zomnqumo ziyathathwa, zicindezelwe ezindaweni eziminyene kakhulu zabantu basePalestine, kuyilapho amaJuda asuka kwa-Israel efudukela eWest Bank ezindaweni zokuhlala. Futhi zonke lezi zindawo zokuhlala azikho emthethweni ngaphansi komthetho wamazwe ngamazwe, othi awukwazi ukuhambisa abantu bakho endaweni ehlala abantu. I-Israel ithuthele amakhulu ezinkulungwane zabantu kule ndawo ngezindleko zamaPalestine ahlala lapho. Ukuze usuke endaweni ethile eWest Bank uye kwenye eqhele ngamamayela ambalwa nje, kufanele uhambe uzungeze umzila othile ophithizelayo, ngoba kunemigwaqo eyama-Israel kuphela. Kukhona izindawo zokuhlola njalo. Ngakho-ke akufani nokuthi uneWest Bank eyodwa. Unebhodi lokuhlola lezingcezu zendawo yasePalestine elizungezwe imigwaqo yakwa-Israyeli kuphela kanye nezindawo zokuhlala zakwa-Israel, ezinomhlaba omkhulu, amanzi amaningi, nemigwaqo yokufinyelela, kuyilapho amaPalestine ephucwa umhlaba kancane kodwa nakanjani. Kukhona abanye bakwa-Israel, okuhlanganisa nabathile kuhulumeni wamanje, okuwuhulumeni wobufascist ngokwezwi nezwi emlandweni wakwa-Israel, ongathanda ukuvele axoshe wonke amaPalestine. Qedela umsebenzi abawuqala ngo-1948. Abanye bafuna nje ukubagxilisa ezindaweni ezincane futhi bashiyele ama-Israyeli wonke umhlaba omuhle namanzi amahle.
Manje lelo yiWest Bank. E-Gaza, alukho uhlobo olufanayo lwemithombo yomhlaba ebalulekile namanzi. Ngenxa yokuqhunyiswa kwamabhomu e-Israel, ebulala abantu kodwa futhi ecekela phansi nengqalasizinda, ngenxa yokulawula kuka-Israyeli izimpahla ezingena eGaza ezingabavumela ukuba bakhe kabusha ngenxa yesimiso sabo samanzi esicekeleke phansi kanye nesimiso sokukhucululwa kwendle - eGaza kube nenkinga yokusiza abantu futhi kuye kwaba nenhlekelele. kube yile nkinga yobuntu eGaza kudala ngaphambi kwezehlakalo zamasonto ambalwa edlule. Eqinisweni, eminyakeni eyishumi edlule, iZizwe Ezihlangene zathi uma izinto ziqhubeka ngale ndlela eGaza, izoba yinto engaphili ngo-2020, futhi akukho okushintshile ngempela. Ngakho-ke mayelana nokuzikhethela, mayelana nokukwazi ukuphila impilo ehloniphekile, lena inkinga yobuntu osekunesikhathi eside iqhubeka. Ukuntuleka kwemisebenzi eGaza kungaphezu kwama-50%. Uma lokhu kwenza amaPalestine afune ukushiya iGaza ngokuphelele, u-Israyeli uyajabula, ngoba lokho kuthuthukisa i-ajenda yabo yokuxoshwa.
UMichael Albert: Kulungile. Ngakho usizi lwabantu luyabonakala. Yiziphi ezinye zezindlela abantu basePalestine, kungakhathaliseki ukuthi iyiphi indawo, abaye bazama ngazo ukubekela inselele futhi babalekele izimo zabo ezicindezelayo? Iziphi ezinye zezimpendulo eziyinhloko emizamweni yabo? Manje, ngiyazi ukuthi lesi yisihloko esikhulu futhi akulungile ukukucela ukuthi usikhulume ngokushesha, kodwa, ngamafuphi, yiziphi izinhlobo zokusabela abantu basePalestine ababe nazo futhi yiziphi izinhlobo zokusabela ezilethwe u-Israyeli?
UStephen R. Shalom: Ngakho ngawo-1980, abantu basePalestine bavuka kulokho okwakubizwa ngokuthi ukuvukela kwe-Intifada kokuqala, futhi ikakhulukazi kwakuwukuvukela okungenabudlova, futhi u-Israyeli wasabela ngonya olukhulu. Induna yebutho lezempi, uYitzhak Rabin, kamuva owabulawa ngoba ebhekwa njengosekela kakhulu iPalestine, watshela amasosha akhe ukuba aphule amathambo awo. Kube nonya olukhulu olwasetshenziswa ekuchobozeni le-Intifada engenalo udlame, futhi eminyakeni kusukela lapho, abantu basePalestine baye bazama izinhlobo ezihlukahlukene zemizabalazo engenabudlova izikhathi eziningi. Ekuqaleni kwawo-2000, lapho kuqala i-Intifada yesibili, u-Israyeli wasebenzisa udlame olubulalayo kuyo kusenesikhathi, wayibangela ukuthi ibe i-Intifada enodlame, futhi kwafa ama-Israel amaningi kulokho, kodwa kwafa abantu abaningi basePalestine. Kodwa lokho, nakho, kwehlulekile ngoba ngokwamandla ezempi, i-Israel inezimpahla eziningi kakhulu kunabasePalestine. Bazame imizamo ehlukahlukene yobunxusa. Ngo-2003, iSaudi Arabia yahlongoza - futhi zonke izifundazwe zama-Arab kanye namaPalestine zasayina - ukuthi uma i-Israel ivumela ukusungulwa kwezwe lasePalestina eWest Bank naseGaza, zonke izifundazwe zama-Arab zizoqaphela u-Israyeli futhi zakhe ubudlelwano obunokuthula nabo. U-Israyeli wenqaba.
Ngo-2018, abantu basePalestine eGaza bamasha baya emngceleni, odongeni, uthango ama-Israyeli ayelubeke eGaza. Bamashela othangweni ekuqaleni bengenalo udlame. Kamuva kwakukhona abantu abajikijela amatshe nama-cocktails e-Molotov nokunye, phezu komngcele, kodwa abahlaseli bakwa-Israel babulala abantu abacishe babe ngama-200, ababengasongeli noma yikuphi ukulimala okubulalayo; futhi badubula abasebenzi bezokwelapha, izintatheli, izingane. Futhi abantu abaningi basePalestine bakhungatheke kakhulu ngokungabi nodlame. Abantu abaningi basePalestine, kunjalo, bathi kodwa asinayo inketho ehlomile lapha ezosishiya sinqobile.
UMichael Albert: Ngakho-ke sifika esikhathini samanje futhi sinokuhlasela kwe-Hamas emasontweni amabili edlule manje. Angiqiniseki nokuthi yimiphi imigomo engase ibe nayo. Ngabe bekukhona indima yase-Iran, njengoba bekuhlongoziwe? Ingabe imikhuba yakamuva elungile kwa-Israyeli iyisici, futhi singathethelela noma sizwelane ngezinga elingakanani - hhayi into efanayo - umuzwa waseGaza wokuthi umhlane wabo ubhekene nodonga, babhekene nokufa okuhamba kancane, futhi bazimisele uzifaka engozini yokuthile okunolaka ukuze ubalekele?
UStephen R. Shalom: Kukhona imibuzo eminingi ehlukene lapho. Okokuqala, yini ababenethemba lokuyifinyelela? Akucaci. Kunezinto ezimbalwa ebeziqhubeka. Ukhulume ngemvelo yophiko lwesokudla lukahulumeni wakwa-Israel. Lokhu kuyisici sangempela. Lona nguhulumeni owathi asinandaba nawo, ngeke size senze sengathi ohulumeni bangaphambilini benza, ukuthi ekugcineni sizokweseka uhlobo oluthile lokuncipha kombuso wamaPalestine. Cha, asikufuni nhlobo lokho. Umgomo wethu uwukuthatha umhlaba omningi wasePalestine ngangokunokwenzeka. Esinye isizathu esenza ukuthi i-Hamas iphumelele kangaka ekusebenzeni kwayo kwezempi eGaza ngo-Okthoba 7th yingoba iningi lezempi lakwa-Israel lasuswa endaweni yaseGaza layiswa eWest Bank ukuze linikeze isivikelo kubahlali abahlomile ababenza ama-pogroms ngokumelene namaPalestina eWest Bank. Ngakho-ke bonke abantu basePalestine babebona ukwanda okukhulu kodlame lwase-Israel, ukungena kwe-Israel ezindaweni zabo zenkolo, kanye nokuthathwa komhlaba ngama-Israel. Ngakho lokho kuyinto eyodwa ngemuva.
Okwesibili ukuthi, mayelana nokuguquguquka kwamazwe ngamazwe, i-United States yayizama ukwenza uhlelo phakathi kweSaudi Arabia ne-Israel. Manje, kusukela ngo-1948, lapho i-Israel isungulwa, amazwe amaningi ama-Arab athi asizukubona u-Israyeli kuze kube yilapho enikeza ubulungiswa kubantu basePalestine. I-Egypt yakwephula lokho ngo-1979 lapho benza isivumelwano sokubuyisela iSinayi, eyayinqotshwe u-Israyeli. IJordani inobudlelwane no-Israyeli. E-Morocco: ngaphansi kuka-Trump kanye Nezivumelwano zakhe zika-Abraham, i-Morocco yavuma ukuqaphela u-Israyeli njengembuyiselo ku-Israel kanye ne-United States iqaphela ukuthatha kwe-Morocco eNtshonalanga Sahara. Ngakho-ke kwaba namakhefu kuleso simo esifanayo sama-Arabhu. Kodwa ukube iSaudi Arabia ihambisana no-Israel, amaPalestine ngabe abukeka esesimweni esingenathemba. Kodwa isizathu sokuthi ngingacabangi ukuthi lokho kuyisici esiqinisekile ukuthi abantu abaningi abacabangi ukuthi lokho kuxoxisana kwakuzokwenzeka ngempela, ngoba amaSaudis athi sizokwenza kuphela uma u-Israyeli evumela amaPalestina. Futhi mhlawumbe omunye uhulumeni wakwa-Israel kungenzeka wenze izivumelwano zezimonyo, kodwa kuyangabazeka ukuthi lo hulumeni ophiko lwesokudla lweNetanyahu ubengaba nakho, ngakho-ke ngiyangabaza ukuthi ngabe isivumelwano sika-Israel neSaudi senzeke.
Abanye bacabanga ukuthi i-Iran yayikhathazeke kakhulu ngesivumelwano sika-Israel neSaudi ngakho-ke bakhuthaza i-Hamas ukuthi iqalise lokhu kuhlasela, ngethemba lokuthi lokhu kuzophazamisa noma yiziphi izingxoxo ezingenzeka phakathi kwe-Israel-Saudi. Impela kunjalo ukuthi i-Iran ibihlinzeka ngoqeqesho kanye nezikhali kanye nemali kuHamas. Kodwa ukuhlelwa kwalo msebenzi kumele ngabe kuqale okungenani unyaka odlule, ngakho-ke akucaci ukuthi noma yiziphi izici ezikhona okungenzeka kube yincazelo.
Kulungile, manje ubuye wabuza mayelana nokuthethelela kanye nencazelo. Kubantu bakwa-Israyeli abayi-1400 ababulawa ngo-Okthoba 7th, ngaphezu kwezingxenye ezimbili kwezintathu zabo kwakungabantu abavamile. Ukubulala izakhamuzi, ngokubona kwami, kuhlale kunecala futhi akufanelekile. Kunamacala aqinile omuntu ovamile okungenzeka angabi yisakhamuzi ngokugcwele. Isibonelo, usebenza efekthri yamathangi. Ingabe uyisakhamuzi? Ungunobhala wezokuvikela, ongumuntu ngokomthetho, njll. Ngakho-ke kukhona amacala aqinile, kodwa awekho amacala aqinile abandakanya izingane, ngakho-ke ukubulala lolu hlobo lwabantu abangenacala akulungile neze futhi akwamukelekile. Kodwa ngokuqinisekile umuntu angaqonda ukuthi kungani abantu abaye balulazwa futhi baphathwa ngesihluku isikhathi eside kangaka bengase baqhume kulolo hlobo lwentukuthelo. Ngokufanayo, inani elikhulu nakakhulu lezakhamuzi liye labulawa ekuziphindiseleni kuka-Israyeli, futhi lezo nazo ziyaqondakala. Siyayiqonda imizwa yokuziphindiselela, njll. Kodwa lokho akwenzi ukuthi yamukeleke. Futhi zombili lezo zibalo zokufa - ama-Israel abulawa ngo-Okthoba 7, amaPalestine abulawa kusukela ngaleso sikhathi - aphansi uma kuqhathaniswa nenani labantu abampilo yabo isengozini ukuya phambili, engamakhulu ezinkulungwane, futhi yilapho ukugcizelela kwethu kwangempela. kufanele kube ezinsukwini ezizayo.
UMichael Albert: Uma ama-Israyeli, noma abasekeli noma abasekeli bezinqubomgomo zakwa-Israyeli, bekhuluma ngakho, bakhuluma ngelungelo lokuzivikela. Lokhu kuvela njalo. Bengicabanga ukuthi mhlawumbe singakulungisa lokho kancane futhi. Okokuqala nje, lisho ukuthini? Lisho ukuthini ilungelo lokuzivikela? Okwesibili, uma ikhona, ingabe iHamas yayinalo ilungelo elinjalo lokuthethelela izenzo zayo zakamuva? Ingabe u-Israyeli unalo ilungelo elinjalo lokuthethelela izenzo zakhe zamanje? Futhi ingabe oyedwa akanalo ilungelo elinjalo kodwa omunye? Ngakho kusho ukuthini? Okokuqala, kusho ukuthini ukuthi izwe linelungelo lokuzivikela?
UStephen R. Shalom: Ngikholelwa ukuthi amazwe nabantu banelungelo lokuzivikela. I-pacifist ingase ingavumelani. I-pacifist ingase ithi akuthetheleleki neze ukusebenzisa ubudlova noma amandla ngokumelene nomunye umuntu. Kodwa abantu abaningi banombono wokuthi kunezimo ezithile ezithethelela ukusetshenziswa kwamandla. Futhi okubaluleke kakhulu kulezo zimo ukuthi uma othile esebenzise amandla ngokumelene nawe kuqala, lapho-ke unelungelo lokuthola ilungelo lokuzivikela ngokulimaza umhlaseli wakho. Ngakho-ke uhlale unelungelo, kunjalo, lokuphakamisa ingalo yakho ukuze uvimbele ukushaya. Kodwa futhi unelungelo lokuphindisela uma othile ekugxumela emgwaqeni njll. Kodwa bonke abacabanga ngokuziphatha bathi ukunikeza ilungelo lokuzivikela akusho ukuthi lelo lungelo alinamkhawulo. Kunemikhawulo ethile kuyo. Omunye umkhawulo uwumkhawulo wokulinganisa. Okusho ukuthi, uma umuntu eza kuwe futhi akushayisa ngamabomu, awukwazi ukukhipha i-Uzi kanye nesibhamu somshini yena nomndeni wakhe. Yebo, uyaphendula, kodwa lokho akuhambisani nomonakalo kanye nengozi obubhekene nayo. Kukhona omunye umgomo lapha, okungukuthi uma usuvele wenza isenzo esingenabulungiswa, kusho ukuthi awunalo ilungelo lokuzivikela. Ngakho isigebengu sasebhange singena ebhange, sidubule unogada, sithi nginike imali futhi othile, omunye wamakhasimende mhlawumbe, akhiphe isibhamu ukuze adubule isigebengu. Ingabe leso sigebengu sinelungelo lokuzivikela ukuze sidubule lelo khasimende? Cha, ngoba wawungenalo ilungelo lokuba lapho kwasekuqaleni, ngakho-ke ngendlela efanayo umhlali wamakoloni akanalo ilungelo lokuzivikela ngokumelene nalabo abazama ukuphuma emsebenzini wabo wamakoloni. Ngakho-ke eShayina noma ePhilippines phakathi neMpi Yezwe II, uma ubungaphansi kombuso wamaJapane futhi wanquma ukuqamekela amasosha aseJapane aqaphayo, ukuthi adutshulwe kuqala noma okwesibili kwakungasho lutho. Bangabahlali, abanalo ilungelo lokuzivikela. Manje, yebo, unelungelo lokuzivikela, ngisho noma ungumhlali, uma uzivikela esenzweni esingenabulungiswa esenziwe abantu abamatasa. Ngakho-ke uma umuntu egqekeza emzini wakwa-Israel futhi esezobulala ingane, lokho akusona isenzo sokuzivikela futhi ngenxa yalokho wena, umIsrayeli wakulelo khaya, ubuyoba nelungelo lokuzivikela. Kodwa njengomthetho ojwayelekile, ukumelana nePalestine kusemthethweni ngaphakathi kwemingcele esengiyishilo, futhi ukuzivikela kwa-Israyeli akuvumelekile.
UMichael Albert: Ngokusobala, akudingeki uye ezimweni ezimbi kakhulu ukuze ubone ukuthi kunomehluko phakathi kokuzivikela nokuziphindiselela yonke indawo. Kunomehluko phakathi kwecala lakho lomuntu ovikela ingane endlini yakhe ekuhlaselweni okweqisayo, okungalungile, okunonya, ngakolunye uhlangothi, kanye nezwe lakwa-Israel elivala amanzi, ukudla, ukungena kukagesi kanye nokuqhunyiswa kwamabhomu amadolobha abe uthuli njengesenzo ukuziphindiselela, ngakolunye uhlangothi. Kunoma ikuphi, lokhu kungase kuphume kancane emzileni esikuwo, kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi kubalulekile ukukulungisa. Ngakho-ke isibalo esihle sabameli besokunxele besizathu sasePalestine, ngemuva kwesenzo se-Hamas, basekela futhi bazizwa bezazi ngempendulo yakwa-Israyeli. Lokhu ngikuzwe kubangani abahlukahlukene engizaziyo futhi ngiyazi ukuthi kunjalo. Kodwa kungani kungase kube njalo? Kungani umuntu obekade esekela udaba lwasePalestine engazelele azizwe ehambisana nempendulo yakwa-Israel? Futhi kufanele kube njalo?
UStephen R. Shalom: Okunye esikwaziyo ngobuphekula ukuthi ziningi izinto ezingalungile ngobuphekula. Into eyodwa engalungile ngobuphekula ukuziphatha kwabo. Okwesibili okungalungile ngobuphekula ukuthi uma inhloso yakho kuwukwakha, njengoba i-ANC yayifuna ukwakha eNingizimu Afrika, izwe elixube izinhlanga, khona-ke izinhlobo ezithile zamaqhinga zenza ukwakhiwa kombuso oxube izinhlanga kube nzima kakhulu, yingakho i-ANC yayinamandla kakhulu. ulinganiselwe enanini lobuphekula obabandakanyeka kubo. Ngakho-ke leso isizathu sesibili. Futhi isizathu sesithathu esimelene nobuphekula ukuthi ngokuvamile - angazi noma lokhu kuwumthetho wendawo yonke, kodwa ngokuvamile - umphumela wobuphekula awukona ukwenza izimbangi zakho zithi, Nkulunkulu wami, sinephutha. , kodwa kunalokho ukuvusa ulaka oluyimpumputhe, inzondo, ukuziphindiselela. Ngokuvamile, ucwaningo luye lwabonisa njalo lapho kwakukhona ukuqhuma kwamabhomu kwa-Israel ngawo-1990, isabelo esilungile sevoti sakhuphuka, ngoba uphiko olufanele luthi, sivoteleni, sizophahlaza amaPalestine. Ngakho-ke lokhu, ngicabanga, kuyimpendulo yomuntu yemvelo yokuthi lapho abantu obathandayo bebulewe, uyathukuthela. Futhi abanye abantu bangabona ngale kwalokho futhi babheke izindlela zobuntu zokuzama ukuxazulula isimo. Kodwa kuvame ukuvela ukuthi abantu abakwenzi lokho futhi ngicabanga ukuthi kuyadlalwa lapha. Kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi kubalulekile futhi ukuqaphela ukuthi, nakuba sizwa amazwi amaningi ebiza impindiselo kwa-Israyeli, sizwa nenani elincane labantu lithi ngilahlekelwe isihlobo esiseduze, kodwa ningakusebenzisi lokho njengezaba zokubulala izakhamuzi zasePalestine. Ungakusebenzisi lokho njengezaba zokwenyuka. Kulezi zimo, lezo zinhlobo zamazwi zivame ukucwiliswa. Kwenzeka okufanayo nase-United States ngemuva kuka-9-11. Umkhankaso wempi awuzange ukhuphule nje ama-warmonger amadala ajwayelekile, kodwa inqwaba yabanye yashanelwa nangenxa yezinto ezesabekayo abantu ababezibonile.
UMichael Albert: Ngakho-ke kuyaqondakala, kodwa lokho akukwenzi kulunge, kunjalo.
UStephen R. Shalom: Kunjalo.
UMichael Albert: Futhi kungenzeka. Kumelwe ngivume ukuthi ngikuthola kunzima ukuqonda ukuthi umuntu angabona kanjani ukuthi, ngemva kwamashumi eminyaka namashumi eminyaka yokuzithoba kanye nezimo ezimbi nokufa kanye nakho konke okunye, ukuhlasela ngendlela ebulala izakhamuzi akuyona nje into ephikisayo kodwa akulungile, futhi ngingaboni ukuthi ukuhlasela ngemuva kwesenzo esibulala abantu abayinkulungwane ngokuhlasela abantu abayisigidi, ingxenye yabo okuyizingane, nokuyinto engitshelwa ukuthi kuyiqiniso ngenani labantu basePalestine, akulungile. Hhayi nje ukubona ukuthi akulungile, kodwa ukukubona njengento engifuna ukuyihlanganisa, engifuna ukuyigubha. Kunzima kimina ukukuqonda lokho. Ngiyakwazi ukukuzwa, kodwa kunzima. Noma kunjalo, abezindaba basentshonalanga bavame ukubizwa ngokuthi bachemile futhi banobuzenzisi ekusakazweni kwabo nge-Israel nePalestine. Futhi ngakho okokuqala ngifuna ukukubuza ukuthi kungani lokho? Okungukuthi, beka eceleni okulungile nokungalungile umzuzu. Kungani abantu bethi abezindaba baseNtshonalanga bachemile futhi banobuzenzisi ekusakazweni kwabo?
UStephen R. Shalom: Abezindaba balandele kakhulu umugqa kahulumeni wase-US ku-Israel-Palestine futhi uhulumeni wase-US ulandele kakhulu umugqa we-Israel ku-Israel-Palestine. Futhi kunezincazelo eziningana lapha. Okunye ukufana kwamaJuda akwa-Israel namaMelika uma kuqhathaniswa namaPalestine Omhlaba Wesithathu. Kukhona iqiniso lokuthi umbuso wezokuphepha wase-US uqondanise izintshisekelo zawo nezakwa-Israel. U-Israel wenze izinjongo ezibalulekile zokusekela inqubomgomo yase-US eMpumalanga Ephakathi. Ngezinye izikhathi abantu bakhuluma ngakho njengo-Israyeli ngokumelene nama-Arabhu, kodwa kuvame ukuba yi-Israel kanye nezifundazwe zama-Arab eziphendulayo ezisekela i-United States ngakolunye uhlangothi kanye nezifundazwe zama-Arab eziqinile ngakolunye. Ngakho-ke, ngokwesibonelo, ngo-1967, lapho u-Israyeli elwa neGibhithe, iGibhithe ngaleso sikhathi lalinamasosha amaningi eYemen empini yombango lapho, lapho amaSaudi ayengaphesheya. Ngakho-ke kwaba khona ukungqubuzana phakathi kwama-Arab phakathi kobukhosi baseSaudi Arabia obusekela abasebukhosini eYemen ngakolunye uhlangothi kanye nohlobo lombuso oqinile waseGibhithe osekela amabutho anamandla eYemen. I-United States yayisohlangothini lwama-royalists. Ngakho-ke ukwehlulwa kuka-Israyeli uNasser, umholi waseGibhithe, ngo-1967, kwakungeyona nje inzuzo kuma-Israyeli, kodwa kwaba wusizo kumaSaudis. Kube yinzuzo ezinkampanini zikawoyela zaseMelika ezazixhumene neSaudis, futhi kwaba wusizo kuhulumeni wase-US. Ngakho-ke lezo ezinye zezizathu zokuthi kungani indlela yabezindaba ngokuvamile ithathe uhlangothi luka-Israyeli kule mibuzo.
UMichael Albert: Umbuzo ohluke kancane kunalowo ebengifuna impendulo yawo, okungelona iphutha lakho. Kuyiphutha lami ngendlela engibuze ngayo. Okungukuthi, uphendule umbuzo othi โKungani abezindaba baseNtshonalanga bengase baziphathe ngendlela esingayibona ichema futhi inobuzenzisi, ethobela umbono othile, naphezu kwamaqiniso?โ Kodwa ebengifuna ukwazi ngakho wukuthi mayelana nokubikwa kwayo yini eyenza abantu bacabange ukuthi abezindaba baseNtshonalanga bachemile, hhayi ukuthi yini imbangela yokuchema, kodwa buyini ubufakazi balokho. Yibuphi ubufakazi bokuthi abezindaba baseNtshonalanga empeleni baziphatha ngendlela echemile, hhayi inhloso, ewukuzenzisa hhayi - angazi nokuthi liyini igama eliphambene nobuzenzisi ekusakazeni kwabo i-Israel nePalestine? Ngiqonde ukuthi, impendulo yakho ibaluleke kakhulu ngezindlela eziningi, kepha kukhona lo mbuzo wokuthi uma ungavumelani nokuthile, kungani ungavumelani? Ungaphikisani nakho ngoba kuwukungavumelani okuqotho futhi ungaphikisani nakho ngoba unomuzwa wokuthi olunye uhlangothi empeleni aluthembekile, alunikezi umzamo walo omuhle kakhulu wokubona ukuthi yini ngempela eyenzekayo futhi ubike ukuthi empeleni kwenzekani ngokunembile. Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi isimangalo sokuthi abezindaba baseNtshonalanga bachemile futhi banobuzenzisi akukhona nje ukungaboni ngaso linye mayelana nokuthi amaqiniso ayini, kodwa kuwukungaboni ngaso linye mayelana nokuthi bathembekile yini ekubikeni kwabo, noma ngabe bayabhala noma cha. izinto ngendlela ezama ukuthola iqiniso lesimo. Mhlawumbe kucace ngaleyo ndlela. Uma kungenjalo, singavele siqhubeke.
UStephen R. Shalom: Ezikhathini eziningi abezindaba bayakwamukela uhlaka luka-Israyeli lombuzo. Ngakho-ke, isibonelo, ngishilo ukuthi u-Israyeli usethuthele amakhulu ezinkulungwane zabahlali eWest Bank naseMpumalanga yeJerusalema. Bazakhele lezi zindawo zokuhlala. Kukhona nezindawo zokuhlala ezimbalwa ezakhiwe amahlanya angakwesokudla ezingekho ezindaweni ezikhethwe umbuso wakwa-Israel. Bazama ukukhuthaza izwe lakwa-Israel ukuthi lihambe ngesivinini esisheshayo sokuxazulula izingxabano kunalokho elikufunayo. Lezo zindawo zokuhlala azinazo izimvume ezivela kuhulumeni wakwa-Israel. Uhulumeni wakwa-Israel uthi lezi yizindawo zokuhlala ezingekho emthethweni futhi abezindaba baseNtshonalanga bavame ukusebenzisa lolo limi. Kodwa-ke inkantolo yomhlaba ithe zonke izindlu zakwa-Israel, ngisho lezi - ikakhulukazi lezi - ezigunyazwe uhulumeni wakwa-Israel, azikho emthethweni. Ngakho-ke ekuhlanganiseni kwabo bethi ukuthi-nokuthi-ke ilungu lendawo yokuhlala engekho emthethweni, bafihla iqiniso lokuthi yebo, kukhona ubugebengu nokuphambene nomthetho kwalawa ma-crazies, kodwa empeleni izwe lonke lakwa-Israel lenza umsebenzi ongekho emthethweni futhi. umuntu angathola izibonelo zalolo hlobo lwento ngazo zonke izinhlobo zezindlela. Ngakho-ke sezwa iminyaka eminingi ukuthi amaPalestine awazimisele ukuqaphela u-Israyeli, kodwa empeleni ama-Israel ayengazimisele ukuqaphela amaPalestina nokuthi asizange sizwe.
UMichael Albert: Into engizama ukuyithola kabi, wukuthi inhlangano yabezindaba ingakwazi ukubeka isikhundla. Kungaba isikhundla esingalungile. Abantu abakwenzayo bangase bakholelwe ukuthi kuyiqiniso. Kungenjalo, kungaveza leso sikhundla esingalungile futhi abantu bazi ukuthi kungamanga. Futhi endaweni ethile phakathi yayingasiveza leso sikhundla futhi kungaba njalo ukuthi abantu abasibhalayo, abantu abasihlelayo kanye nabantu abasibeka phambili ngaphandle kobunzima bazoqonda amanga aso kodwa ngandlela thize bazigcine ekunakekeni. kulokho kuqonda. Angazi noma i-nuance yalo mehluko yenza umehluko omkhulu ekugcineni. Impela akwenzi mehluko kokuqukethwe kwangempela kwe-athikili evelayo. Ihlanekezelwe futhi angazi nokuthi yikuphi okubi kakhulu. Kodwa le mehluko ikhona, futhi iphinde ingene ekusebenzelaneni kwabantu abangaba nakho. Ngakho-ke ukhuluma nelungu lomndeni mayelana ne-Israel futhi ilungu lomndeni lisho izinto ezingamanga nje, ezikhona noma eziveza ekuhlaziyeni okujulile nokunganakwa kwenhlalakahle kanye namalungelo ezinombolo ezinkulu zabantu lowo muntu ayejwayele ukwenza. ungalokothi uveze, ungezwakali, ubengaqonda futhi usole. Futhi kunzima ukuqonda kahle ukuthi lolu hlobo lwesimo luvela kanjani; ukuthi umuntu ohluzekile, onakekelayo uqhamuka kanjani nemibono kanye nezimo eziphambene ngokuphelele nalokho abejwayele ukukuthatha. Mhlawumbe kufanele siqhubeke, kodwa isimo esikhona manje, ngiyacabanga, siletha ukunaka lezi zinhlobo zezinkinga uma uzama ukuhlela eduze kwazo.
UStephen R. Shalom: Okunye osekunesikhathi eside kuyinkinga kubagxeki bakwa-Israel wukuthi abaphikisana nabo babasola ngokungahambisani nomthetho. Lokhu kuyicala elinamandla kakhulu, futhi, uma kubhekwa umlando we-antisemitism kanye nomlando we-antisemitism ngakwesobunxele futhi, akekho ofuna ukusolwa ngalokho, ngakho-ke abantu bavame ukukugwema ukugxeka u-Israyeli ngoba bengafuni. ukusolwa ngalokho. Kungakho kubalulekile ukuthi kube nezinhlangano zamaJuda ezimele amalungelo asePalestine, ngoba kunzima ukuzibeka icala lokungahambisani nomthetho. Kodwa, njengoba uNoam Chomsky athola eminyakeni edlule, impendulo esikhundleni salokho ilungile, awuyena umuntu ophikisayo, ungumJuda ozizondayo. Manje abanye abantu bazimisele ukwamukela lokho kuhlaselwa futhi baqhubeke futhi bamele amalungelo abantu basePalestine, kodwa kubacindezela kakhulu, ngakho-ke ngicabanga ukuthi lokho kungenye into.
UMichael Albert: Ngiyavuma ukuthi kungesinye isici. Anginaso isiqiniseko sokuthi ukwesaba ukucwaswa, uma kuqhathaniswa nesifiso sokufakwa. Futhi kwehluka kancane. Uma ngisho izinto ezishiwo uChomsky. Ngizokhishwa inyumbazane ngakolunye uhlangothi, kodwa futhi, ngaphandle kwalokho, ngeke ngibe yingxenye yeqembu. Lokho kusho ezinye izinto. Futhi ngisola ukuthi isifiso sokuba yingxenye yeqembu esikhundleni sokwesaba ukucwaswa kungase kube yilokho okusebenzayo.
UStephen R. Shalom: Ngakho-ke, isibonelo, abantu abaningi e-Harvard bayingxenye yezinhlangano ezisayine isitatimende, engqondweni yami, esasinamagama amabi futhi esisekela kakhulu i-Hamas. Kodwa umphumela ube ukuthi kunamaloli ahamba anezimpawu ezinkulu ezinamagama abo bonke abantu ababengamalungu ala maqembu, benethemba lokuthi bazolahlekelwa imisebenzi, bahoxiswe imisebenzi. Ngakho ingabe lokhu kwesaba ukulinyazwa noma ukungafaneleki?
UMichael Albert: Lokho kuwukwesaba ukulimala. Kuyisibonelo esihle kakhulu sosongo nokuzama ukugwema usongo. Kodwa uma ngizwa izindaba zabantu abasekela iPalestine futhi okuthi ngokuzumayo, ngenxa yokuhlasela kweHamas bazithole bechitha ukuma kwe-Palestine njenge-antisemitic, njll., ngiyazibuza ukuthi bakwenza ngoba befuna ukugwema ukuhlaselwa? Angicabangi kanjalo. Akuvamile ukuba babe yingozi yalokho. Noma ingabe bafuna ukuba yingxenye yeqembu elisekela u-Israyeli? Isizathu esenza ngicabange ukuthi lokhu kubalulekile yingoba ngicabanga ukuthi kubalulekile ukuthi isishoshovu senxele, umuntu ozama ukukhuluma ngalesi simo futhi alalelwe, kufanele akhulume kanjani. Cishe kunomthelela kulokho okumele kushiwo ukuze kube nengxoxo engase ibe nomthelela ophusile, uma kuqhathaniswa nokusho nje okuyiqiniso ngaphandle kweso elibheke ekubeni nomthelela ophusile.
UStephen R. Shalom: Angicabangi ukuthi isibalo sabantu abebeseka amalungelo asePalestine, abalahle ukwesekwa kwabo ngenxa yalezi zenzakalo, empeleni sikhulu kakhulu. Emibuthanweni ye-Jewish Voice for Peace. Akekho engimaziyo othumele i-imeyili ethi, ngicela unqamule ubulungu bami. Manje sekunabanye abantu abaphikisana nezinye zezindlela ezakhiwe amanye amaqembu aqhamuka nazo futhi kwesinye isikhathi anqamula ubudlelwano bawo nalawo maqembu, kodwa anginabo ubufakazi bokuthi kulawo macala ayenqaba imbangela yasePalestine.
UMichael Albert: Kulungile, nginemibuzo emibili engifuna ukuyibuza ebheke phambili. Enye inzima, ngicabanga. Kumayelana nesikhundla abantu basePalestine abazithole bekuso. Ake sicabange umzuzu nje ukuthi iHamas ibiyinhlangano emele abantu basePalestine futhi ibiphumele obala ngenhlalakahle yamaPalestine eGaza futhi ifuna ukwenza okuthile okungaba nomthelela ekufeni kancane kancane. bayabekezela. Ingabe kukhona ababengakwenza ngaphandle kwalokhu abakwenzile? Ngiyazi ukuthi kufinyelela kithina ukuthi singene esiphakamisweni esinjalo esingaba khona, kodwa futhi singasifundisa okuthile mayelana nokuthi yini engasebenza nokuthi yini engeke isebenze ezikhathini ezinzima. Ngakho kukhona ongakucabanga?
UStephen R. Shalom: Cabanga nje uma i-Hamas yenza umsebenzi wayo ofanayo, yadiliza izindawo zokubuka ngamabhanoyi ayo, yafohla uthango, futhi yenza yonke leyo nto kodwa yavele yahlasela izisekelo zamasosha ayisishiyagalombili. Empeleni bahlasele, njengoba wazi, izisekelo zamasosha eziyisishiyagalombili kanye nemiphakathi ethile ye-20 kanye nomkhosi womculo. Kodwa ake ucabange uma bengahlaselanga amadolobhana nemiphakathi kanye nedili lomculo nhlobo, kodwa bavele bahlasela izizinda zamasosha. Kimina kubonakala sengathi lokho bekuyoba okuhluke kakhulu ekuziphatheni. Futhi bekungaba nzima kakhulu kuhulumeni wakwa-Israyeli ukuthi ahlanganise abantu bakhona ukuze aphendule. Kwakungenzeka ngempela ukuthi abantu bakwa-Israel, ababevele becikwe nguNetanyahu, babemthukuthelele kakhulu kunaseHamas.
UMichael Albert: Ake ngiqhubeke nombuzo owodwa. Abaholi be-Hamas bahlezi ekamelweni eGaza futhi, njengoba usho, kungenzeka ukuthi bekuhlela lokhu phakathi nonyaka. Kazi bebengayazi kanjani lento oqeda kuyisho? Kungenzeka kanjani ukuthi, phakathi nakho konke lokho kucabanga ngalesi senzo, baqonde ukuthi yini umehluko phakathi kokuhlasela izinkambu zamasosha ngasohlangothini lwe-Israel bese benza lokhu okunye? Kungenzeka yini ukuthi babengazimisele ngezinye zalezo zinto? Futhi lokho okunye kwakungesikhathi nje kanye nokwesaba kanye ne-paranoia kanye nobudlova nokuqhuma kwabanye abadlali?
UStephen R. Shalom: Impela kungenzeka, kodwa izinombolo zingenza ngibe nokungabaza kancane.
I-Hamas isikhulume izinto eziningi, kodwa okunye abakushoyo ukuthi ngemuva kokugqekeza uthango, inqwaba yezigebengu yabalandela futhi yibona ababhekene nakho konke ukuhlaselwa kwabantu. Lokho kubonakala kungenakwenzeka kimi.
UMichael Albert: Kodwa-ke kungaba nengqondo ngokwengeziwe, ngomqondo wokuthi ungawaqonda amaqembu ezigelekeqe anjalo aziphatha kanje. Kunzima kimi ukuqonda inhlangano eyinkimbinkimbi yezepolitiki, noma ngabe izwe noma yini, enganaki amathuba okuthi ababehlongoza ukukwenza kuzoba nemiphumela emibi kunemiphumela emihle.
UStephen R. Shalom: Yebo, kodwa zimbili izizathu engingacabangi ukuthi ukubulawa kwabantu abaningi bekubangelwa yizigebengu. Izingxoxo ezimbili ezahlukene nezikhulu ze-Hamas zinikeze izizathu ongeke uzinikeze uma lokhu bekungamaqembu ezigebengu. Ukube bekungamaqembu ezigebengu okufanele asolwe, iHamas ngabe ngowokuqala ukuwagxeka. Esikhundleni salokho sibe nesikhulu se-Hamas esitshele lowo owayexoxa naye ukuthi: โHhayi-ke, ubabiza ngezakhamuzi, kodwa uma ungowesifazane osebenza kukhompyutha yakho uhlasela uhulumeni wakwa-Israel, lokho asikuthathi njengomuntu ovamile. Manje, kwakungekho mzamo wokuxoxisana noma ukufakazela ukuthi ubani ngamunye, omunye walaba abahlukunyeziwe wayengubani. Siyazi ukuthi kwakukhona isixuku sabashisekeli bokuthula phakathi kwabafileyo. Siyazi ukuthi kwakukhona isixuku sama-Arabs akwa-Israel - amaPalestine - phakathi kwabafileyo. Ngakho lokhu kulungiswa ngeke kuthathwe ngokungathi sรญna.
Impikiswano yesibili ethuthukisiwe ephakamisa ukuthi i-Hamas ibophezelekile isimangalo esithi izifiki akuzona izakhamuzi. Manje, ngakolunye uhlangothi lokho kuyiqiniso. Izifiki eziningi eWest Bank zigijima ziphethe izikhali futhi zihlomile, futhi azizona izakhamuzi. Kodwa kuvame ukunwetshwa ukuze kufakwe noma ngubani oyisafiki - ngokwesibonelo izingane ezihlala ekhaya - kanye nokunwetshwa. Izifiki, ngokubona kwabaningi basePalestine, akubona nje labo abahlala eWest Bank ezindaweni zabo zokuhlala, kodwa wonke ama-Israel, ngoba i-Israel iyizwe lamakoloni. Manje, yebo, ngicabanga ukuthi i-Israel iyizwe lezifiki, kodwa kunjalo ne-United States. Futhi uma othile ekubulala futhi wathi uMike Albert uyisakhamuzi sezwe lezifiki zekoloni ngakho-ke kuvunyelwe ngokokuziphatha ukumdubula, ngeke sikuvume lokho. Kodwa olunye lwalolo limi ngeshwa luphinde lube ngakwesobunxele uma lukhuluma ngezifundazwe zamakoloni.
UMichael Albert: Ukwenza leli phuzu lihlehle, manje cabanga ngalabo abeseka u-Israyeli njengamanje, empeleni abangabathetheleli abantu abathile abadlula isithiyo, baphume ejele futhi babe nodlame, kodwa belamba bonke abantu bezwe.
UStephen R. Shalom: Futhi umongameli wakwa-Israyeli uthe empeleni zonke izakhamizi zaseGazan zinecala.
UMichael Albert: Kukhona ukuxaka kwengqondo okwenzekayo okukuvumela ukuthi ukuqonde ngakolunye uhlangothi kodwa hhayi ngakolunye uhlangothi, ngisho nasezimweni ezibucayi kakhulu, nalapho uhlangothi oluqondayo kulo luyi-nuanced. Kukhona i-nuance ethile ngasohlangothini lokuziphatha kwePalestine. Ngakolunye uhlangothi, akukho nuance nhlobo. Kunombuso onamandla ngokumangalisayo wezempi omemezela impi, empeleni, kubantu abayizigidi ezimbili, futhi ngandlela thize lokho kusemthethweni. Yilokho enginenkinga ngakho, ukuthi umuntu ocabangayo angala kanjani omunye futhi amukele omunye, lapho lowo abamukelayo esobala kakhulu, hhayi nje esikalini sakhe kodwa ekusweleni kwakhe noma yini angazwelana nayo, ngicabanga. Noma kunjalo, kufanele kube nomthelela, ngiyacabanga, indlela esikhuluma ngayo ngalezi zinto, uma sikhuluma ngabantu, kulungile, kodwa kuthiwani ngokuya phambili? Kuthiwani ngesixazululo? Uphendule kahle kakhulu, ngicabanga, umbuzo wokuthi kungenzeka yini ngokuhlukile ngesikhathi sokungena, ngesikhathi sejele, ake sikubize, ngamaPalestina. Manje kuza umbuzo: ingabe sikhona isixazululo kulesi simo esiya phambili? Futhi ake ngihlukanise lokho kube yizinto ezimbili. Bekuzokwenzekani ukube, lapho uBiden eya kwa-Israyeli njengamanje, naphezu kwazo zonke izisho zomphakathi - siyasekela, njll., njll, njll. , aqede ukuhlasela. Ake sikhulume ngezindlela zokuhlehla ezingezona, ezizithwesa icala ngokwedlulele, kodwa sibuye esibhicongweni sokubulawa kwabantu esisihlelayo futhi sifinyelele esimweni sokuthula nezinga lobulungisa. Ngeke ngisho uguquko olukhulu, kodwa ukuthula nezinga lobulungiswa ukuya phambili. Ukube uBiden wayeshilo lokho, wawuyoba yini umphumela? Futhi ukube bekuyoba ngokwanele? Bese kuphakama umbuzo, kungani ungasho?
UStephen R. Shalom: Yebo. Ngakho uThomas Friedman, u New York Times umlobi oxhumeke kahle kakhulu emibuthanweni yokwenza inqubomgomo, ube nenqwaba yezinhlelo ezinsukwini ezimbalwa ezedlule ezisho ukuthi kuzoba yinhlekelele ukuya eGaza. Ngeke ixazulule inkinga, izokwenza izinto zibe zimbi kakhulu, futhi igcine isimo siqhubeka unomphela. Ngakho-ke kufanele ukubambe lokho kuhlasela, futhi kufanele uthole indlela yokuqhubekisela phambili โinqubo yokuthula.โ Manje lokhu kwehlukile esikhundleni sami ngoba inqubo yokuthula afuna ukuyiqhubekisela phambili iyinqubo yokuthula etshekile kakhulu. Kepha angazi okwamanje ukuthi uBiden wathini kuNetanyahu ngasese. Ngenxa yezizathu zokhetho, ukhulume izinto azisho esidlangalaleni. Kepha mhlawumbe uthe kuNetanyahu, bheka, sihlola ukuthi lokhu kuzoba yinhlekelele engancishisiwe ngakho-ke kufanele sithole enye indlela. Manje kungenzeka futhi ukuthi uthe, sizozama ukwenza amathokheni alethe usizo lokusiza eGaza njengendlela yokukumboza lapho ubulala. Futhi isimemezelo sanamuhla sokuthi amaloli angu-20 osizo lwabantu angeniswe emngceleni waseRafah, lowo ose-Egypt, onabantu abayizigidi ezimbili, siyamangaza. Kuyahlekisa. Kodwa angazi ukuthi wathini, futhi ngeke ngempela kube ngoba uvele waba nenhliziyo. Kungenzeka ukuthi uyaqaphela ukuthi ezithakazelweni zase-United States kungaba inhlekelele.
UMichael Albert: Bengingaphakamisi inhliziyo.
UStephen R. Shalom: Kuyaqondwa. Angazi ukuthi utheni, futhi cishe sizofunda ukuthi ezinsukwini ezimbalwa ezizayo uma kukhona ukuhlasela okugcwele. Umbuzo uthi kungabaluleka yini?
UMichael Albert: Ake sithi i-US ithe, ngenxa yezizathu zayo zokuzicabangela yona, ipholile. Yima futhi sidale inqubo yokuthula yangempela eholela kumphumela ovimba ukulwa okungapheli. Ngakho-ke hhayi ngoba nginikeza i-shit ngamaPalestine noma, ngaleyo ndaba, ama-Israyeli, ngoba angikwenzi, kusho uBiden, kodwa ngoba ngisho njalo futhi ngihlinzeka ngosizo lwama-dollar ayizigidi eziyizinkulungwane ezintathu ngonyaka futhi lokho nami njengomngane. Cabanga ukuthi bekungaba njani kimi njengesitha. I-United States inethonya elikhulu phezu kuka-Israyeli.
UStephen R. Shalom: Okunye ukuthunyelwa kwezikhali kuwumbukiso wobumbano kunesengezo esibalulekile sangempela ebuthweni lezempi lakwa-Israel. Ngicabanga ukuthi abathwali bezindiza empeleni bangase babambe iqhaza elivimbela i-Hezbollah eLebanon noma i-Iran. Kodwa, lapho i-US ivala isinqumo se-UN, lokho kungolunye uhlobo lokusekelwa. Futhi uma i-US ithe asisazukuziphikisa lezo zinqumo, ngakho-ke ngeke nje uhlukaniswe, kodwa futhi uzoba nezinqumo ze-UN ezikulahlayo, ezibiza unswinyo olumelene nawe, njll. Lokho kungaba isimo esinzima kakhulu Israyeli. Uma i-Israel ibona sengathi ukusinda kwayo kusengcupheni, izoyishaya indiva i-United States. Kodwa angicabangi ukuthi ingakwazi ukukukhokhela lokho manje. Asazi ngokwanele ngalo hulumeni omusha wobumbano enawo. Ilungelo elikude linezwi elibalulekile elingakanani kulo? Bangase bathambekele kakhulu ekuqhubekeleni phambili ngokumelene neseluleko sase-US.
Ngakho-ke, ngokuvamile, i-US ingakwazi ukwenza u-Israyeli enze lokho akufunayo, ngaphandle kwalapho izimo ezingavamile. Kunezikhathi eziningi lapho i-US ifaka ingcindezi ebuthakathaka ku-Israel futhi u-Israyeli wayedelela futhi i-US yehla. Kodwa uma i-US inquma ukungahlehli, khona-ke u-Israyeli usesimweni esiphansi kakhulu, uma sikhuluma nje.
UMichael Albert: Sesihambile isikhathi manje. Ingabe kukhona okunye ofuna ukukuzama nokukumboza? Ngokusobala yisimo esikhulu nesiyinkimbinkimbi futhi ngiyazi ukuthi kunenani elingapheli elingashiwo, kodwa ingabe kukhona ofuna ukukwengeza kumxube?
UStephen R. Shalom: Ngicabanga ukuthi kubalulekile ukuthi abantu baseMelika bafake ingcindezi kuhulumeni wabo. Ngicabanga ukuthi imibukiso eyenzekile ezinsukwini ezimbalwa ezedlule e-Washington, eholwa yi-JVP futhi Uma Kungekho Manje, ibaluleke kakhulu. Kodwa impi enzima. Isinqumo seCongress esiphakamisa ukuthi kumiswe ukulwa ngokushesha sinabaxhasi abayi-15. Isinqumo esidinga ukuthi kube nesheke elingenalutho kwa-Israel sinabaxhasi abangama-423. Ngakho-ke impi enzima.
UMichael Albert: Kulungile, Steve, iseshini enhle ngempela. Ngiyabonga kakhulu. Lona nguMike Albert osayina kuze kube yisikhathi esilandelayo seRevolution Z.
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Angivumelani nombono ovezwe lapha , ngibheka umbono we-krisis wesayithi unembe kakhulu : https://www.krisis.org/2023/wie-weiter-nach-dem-7-oktober-schwerpunkt-zu-israelbezogenem-antisemitismus-und-islamismus/