Could you start by telling us a little bit about yourself? Where are you based? What is your background? What are your interests? How would you describe your politics? Would you like to share anything else that will give the reader a sense of who you are?

My name is Ferdia O’Driscoll. I’m an independent researcher based in Dublin, Ireland. I’m a social cybernetician – or social scientist – focusing on details of a new human civilization beyond capitalism and the state. My primary goal in life is to help transform global human society. People can follow me at brightagebeyond.com. I’m currently writing a book with Anders Sandstrom offering a detailed extension and analysis of the Participatory Economy. It should be interesting and informative because Anders is an advocate of parecon whereas I’m a critical friend of the proposal. My interest is in anything pertinent to creating that postcapitalist future and my politics are broadly libertarian socialist. Lately I have been focusing especially on applying Self-Determination Theory (SDT) to postcapitalism. SDT is the leading psychological theory of human motivation and wellbeing, and I believe it is an indispensable key in unlocking the classic problems of political economy.

I understand that you are also behind a new project called International Network for Democratic Economic Planning (INDEP). Who else is involved in this project and how did you initially make contact and what are your common goals?

I want to give credit to Jason Chrysostomou from the Participatory Economy Project for initiating this project in December 2023. So we’ve been working on this for about 7 months. At the beginning, Jason, Anders, and I met online with Simon Tremblay-Pepin from the CRITS  (Research Center on Social Innovation and Transformation). From there we expanded the core organising group to about a dozen people, spread across several countries, comprising activists, academics, and independent researchers. Our goal, in short, is to help connect people working on creating postcapitalism based on democratic economic planning.

There are lots of existing left-progressive projects already up and running. Why did you feel the need to set up INDEP? What does INDEP bring to the table that other left-progressive projects don’t?

INDEP isn’t a party or policy platform. It is a network whose purpose is to link people working on democratic economic planning in postcapitalism. INDEP fills a unique need. People working seriously on postcapitalism, and democratic economic planning in particular, are isolated. As a research and activist milieu, we lack basic functionality such as information sharing. Who is active in this space? What is going on? It is not easy to keep track because of fragmentation. This makes it difficult to achieve synergy in our efforts. We created INDEP to help generate that synergy. Integrating researchers and activists into a single network with proper infrastructure will allow us to collaborate much more effectively, and press both postcapitalism and democratic economic planning into a new phase of growth worldwide.

I guess “International Network” (IN) is self-explanatory but many people might not know what is meant by “Democratic Economic Planning” (DEP). How do you define DEP?

The short answer is that we defined DEP in our constitution. “Broadly, democratic planning means that important decisions over production, reproduction, consumption, distribution, investment – and, indeed, about our lives in general – are determined consciously and collectively via democratic processes rather than by state authorities or market forces.” The definition and importance of “democratic economic planning” is itself a crucial point of debate. In founding INDEP, our goal was to be just sufficiently narrow to exclude “command economies” and “market economies.” So we are talking about postcapitalism, and a particular strand of postcapitalism. Not a single proposal (e.g. parecon), but a space of proposals. The purpose of INDEP is to facilitate.

Democratic processes that are both conscious and collective seem to be at the heart of what you mean by democratic economic planning. This leads you to reject both state authorities or market forces as part of any post-capitalist economic system. Could you say a little bit about your thinking here?

“Conscious” means the critical features of society develop according to the reflective consideration of people. As in, when people envisage the development of society, that is actually how it develops. This contrasts with our current society, the main contours of which emerge through the competitive activities of firms and state agencies. The best example is biosphere collapse. If you ask people today if they want to annihilate the living world, the vast majority of us say we want to protect it. And yet the destruction continues to just happen. This is a lack of “conscious” control. Working time is another example.

Furthermore, “collective” means that people who are affected by decisions (“stakeholders”) have proper influence over them. Society should not be controlled be an elite, whether through the state or large firms. Nor should decision-making be fragmented into private fiefdoms acting independently. Rather, decisions should be coordinated where there are interdependencies.

Overall, this is a democratic social order where the whole population steers the development of society according to social and ecological priorities.

To be very clear, INDEP rejects “market forces” but does not reject “state authorities” per se. That is, INDEP does not endorse or reject the state in postcapitalism. Nor do we define the state. We leave this question open to members to debate. However, it is implied that definitions of the state in postcapitalism are narrowed to something very democratic and autonomy-supportive. To illustrate:

“We reject command economies and the direction of society by any elite, however well-intentioned. Democratic economic planning emerges in a society which is genuinely popular and free. This is not compatible with a state-dominated social order, characterised by elitist and autocratic governance, a hierarchical division of labour, and the instrumentalization of workers. Rather, democratic economic planning depends upon the self-organisation of communities, and is characterised by democratic governance and by a classless and need-supportive division of labour, and the autonomy of workers. We are committed to empowering individuals and communities to actively participate in shaping their destinies, cooperating autonomously rather than being controlled by state authorities.”

In addition to being anti-capitalist, INDEP also appears to reject some socialist economic models. For example, socialist command economies and market socialism. What would you say to someone who said that we do not know enough about democratic centralism or markets to reject them outright?

INDEP clearly distinguishes “democratic economic planning” from “command economies” and “market economies” as defined broadly in our constitution. This is because the intent to surpass capitalism is vague. What is meant by “capitalism” and “postcapitalism”? There are many contradictory approaches.

One approach is typified in the “real socialism” of the USSR, characterised by dictatorship of the Communist Party and state direction of economic life. Their “socialism” was effectively conceived as transforming the whole society into a single giant Fordist corporation controlled by a strict managerial hierarchy. This was not “democratic economic planning” in either conception or practice. It is broadly how we can picture “command economy.” However, note that INDEP doesn’t officially take a stance on the USSR or other “real socialist” systems. We leave members to make their own assessment. I am offering my individual opinion here. But our mission statement does distance us from that approach in substance.

Another approach is “market socialism”. This has its roots in Proudhon’s 19^th century market anarchism, early 20^th century neoclassical socialists like Oscar Lange, the various reform processes in the “real socialist” countries (e.g. Yugoslavia, Hungary, China), and the rise of the “new right” in the late 20^th century. In a nutshell, with the abject failures of the Eastern Bloc and Maoist China, socialists sought an alternative. Many flocked to “market socialism,” seeking to overcome capitalism while retaining the putative efficiency, productivity, adaptation, and innovation of market forces. There are dozens of versions of “market socialism.” For INDEP, we define what we are rejecting:

“We also reject market society. This includes “Market Socialism” in its various forms. We acknowledge that the very definition of “market” is hotly contested and INDEP members will span a variety of opinions. Nonetheless, we do not endorse a society controlled by market forces and the cycle of capital, even with “worker control” of individual enterprises and/or profit-sharing. In a market economy, societal evolution is driven by the competition between enterprises for profit and growth in an environment where the dominant strategy is “grow or die”. This is an emergent process blind to human and ecological needs, wherein the structure of human activity is determined by narrow economic performance, price competition, the commodification of labour power, and a feedback loop of profit-investment-profit.”

What specific societies and proposals are covered by that description is a matter for debate.

What kind of people do you hope to attract to the site and who can join INDEP?

As in our constitution, INDEP is “an international network of workers, students, researchers, and activists, who share the common goal of advancing a post-capitalist economic system based on democratic economic planning.” Both individuals and organisations can join. Organisational candidates are reviewed by the INDEP Steering Committee for compatibility.

Our network aims “to bring the goal of post-capitalism into focus by envisaging the institutions of a new social order and by carefully working towards its realisation today.” That means anybody interested in postcapitalism and democratic economic planning should join. INDEP is concerned with research, practical experimentation, and the feedback between them. Do you want to stay up to date with the latest publications and conferences? Educational resources? DEP-related developments in institutions and social movements? Do you want to share your work? Find collaborators in research or organising? Just meet other people interested in this stuff? If you agree with our values of Inclusivity, Diligence, Respect, Fairness, Autonomy, Democracy, and Collaboration, then join INDEP today. It’s easy to do so.

What kinds of activities can INDEP members engage in?

INDEP is a network that is member-led. We do not run a service model. It is designed so that activity is driven by members who can connect with each other peer-to-peer and organise their own events. So, the network will thrive if the members make it thrive. Members can organise events and advertise them on the INDEP site, post News items, and share a Resource on DEP. We can be listed in the membership directory, receive the INDEP newsletter. Of course, INDEP members can get involved in the administration of INDEP, for example through our working groups. Apart from that members can form interest groups, for example to discuss a particular aspect of postcapitalism. We have a series of talks already lined up post-launch. INDEP is a platform to be used by members to self-organise.

What are your hopes for the future of INDEP?

We created INDEP to help change the world, not merely to talk about it comfortably. I’m confident that INDEP will be very successful. We already have almost 100 members, before our online launch events. INDEP was crying out to be created by somebody. It will succeed because it satisfies a real need. That need is to catalyse collaboration on creating a postcapitalist society based on democratic economic planning. Our initial goal is to achieve a stable routine of sharing information, hosting events, and networking. I’m looking forward to members getting stuck in, setting up their own talks, discussion groups, projects, sharing resources and opportunities, and even meeting in person; developing a sophisticated ecosystem for work on DEP. The next phase of INDEP will be to extend beyond the global north. Contrary to our current composition (concentrated in Europe and North America), INDEP is intended to be a truly global network. We will achieve this but it will take time. Furthermore, we want to improve our gender balance both in governance and general membership. This will also take time. We will continue to attract member organisations.

Our objective is threefold. First, to help the left gain prominence in society. Second, to help postcapitalism gain prominence within the left. And third, to help democratic economic planning to gain prominence within postcapitalism. I believe that because of INDEP we will now enter a new phase of work on postcapitalism globally. The quality and quantity of research output on DEP will increase and the connection between postcapitalist theory and activist practice will strengthen (both directions).

Thank you! Any final thoughts before we finish?

Hope and hopelessness are irrelevant. What matters is our resolve to act. Namely, that we understand what we need to do and then we do it. The left has neglected the details of postcapitalism to disastrous effect. We should make this our top priority. Without a goal there is no strategy, and without strategy there is no sustainable progress in action. We must attract people to our cause by offering something positive and not merely explaining what is wrong. Let’s dare to win and to change the course of history. We could not live in a more momentous time, and in a non-linear world every individual counts. If you are interested in INDEP, why not join right now? Or at least subscribe to our newsletter.

---