BOYLE: Thank you very much for having me on Alex.  My best to your listening audience.

JONES: So much is happening in the world sir.  With your expertise in international law, in torture and in tyranny, in studying that and in fighting it your whole life, can you give us the big view of where the world stands right now and then where the U.S. stands in that world and then your response on this amazing revelation in the New York Times last week that what we already knew from the White House memos, but here it is confirmed, that Bush ordered all this?

 

BOYLE: Well, in answer to your first question, I think the major problem now is what seems to be some type of military attack on Iran. ABC news reported that Bush has signed one of these covert action findings against Iran and the reports seem to indicate that they’re going to attack Iran.  I still think we have some time to head that off.  I think we have to do everything humanly possible to stop it.

 

One, it could get completely out of control and that whole area over there in the Persian Gulf could simply blow up and, two, undoubtedly Bush will then use that as an excuse to further his police state tactics here in the United States, if not at some point culminating in martial law.  For example, if there (are) hostilities between the United States and Iran initiated by the Bush administration – let’s suppose Iran responds with one of those Silkworm missiles against a US aircraft carrier in the Gulf and takes it out, or a destroyer.  Bush would ask for a formal declaration of war from Congress, which he would probably get, and at that point he would be a “constitutional dictator.”  There’s an entire Title of the United States Code that gives the president dictatorial powers in time of a formally declared war…

 

JONES: That he has methodically been exercising and preparing and funding the implementation of that, has he not doctor?

 

BOYLE: That’s correct.  As a matter of a fact it’s already been reported after September 11, 2001 he tried to get a formal declaration of war and Congress refused to give it to him and so they gave him a limited authorization to use military force under the War Powers Resolution.  It’s also clear that the first draft of the USA Patriot Act was sitting on Ashcroft’s desk before September 11th.  They had already had a provision in there to suspend the Writ of Habeas Corpus, which is all that separates us from a police state: namely if you’re detained, your lawyer can appear in court and demand that you be produced live in court to justify the detention and the conditions of detention.  For example, such that you’re being tortured or something like that.  So it’s very clear that even before September 11th, with that draft of the Patriot Act ready to go, they were contemplating setting up a police state.  And if there is a formal declaration of war against Iran, that’ll be all they need…

 

JONES:  After the next attack we’re going to set aside the constitution for a military form of government.   Did you see that letter a week and a half ago by former Senator Gary Hart, the big C.F.R. muckedy muck, where he told Iran in no uncertain terms, “Look, we’ve staged events before?  Don’t think the American people won’t support an attack on you”, because the historical question is, does the US government engage in provocations?  Did you see that letter?

 

BOYLE: I’m sorry I didn’t, but it’s true they have all along of course staged the Gulf of Tonkin. You know, Brzezinski said the same thing. Where you have these insiders like Brzezinski and Hart saying it’s coming and I think it clearly is, and the Neo-Cons could not care less about democracy.  As I’ve said before, I was trained to be a Neo-Con with all these people up there at the University of Chicago.  (Paul) Wolfowitz was there, Khalilzad, Ahmed Chalabi, Shulsky, all of them. We have to understand that the father of the Neo-Cons, Leo Strauss – his mentor in Germany and his teacher and his sponsor was Professor Karl Schmitt, who went on to become the most notorious Nazi law professor of that benighted era and justified in legal terms, every hideous atrocity Hitler and the Nazis inflicted on everyone, including the Jews, preventive warfare, etc.

 

So all these Neo-Cons have been schooled there at the University of Chicago, as I was, in Schmitt and Strauss and Machiavelli, and Nietzsche and Hobbes.  This is thoroughly anti-democratic training. That’s exactly the way all the Neo-Cons have been trained. I went through the exact same program.  They were there with me.  Strauss had just retired when I started there in 1968, but I was trained to be a Neo-Con by his foremost student, protégé, co-author and later literary executor, Joseph Cropsey.  And it’s still a source for producing all these Neo-Cons.  They are very smart, very well trained and they are completely ruthless and unprincipled and they are motivated by an ideology that is anti-American and it’s basically Neo-Nazi.

 

That’s what we’re dealing with.

 

JONES: Well that Nazi theme keeps coming up.  The main bagman for the person that bankrolled Hitler, Fritz Thyssen, was Prescott Bush and then he got left as the executor of those banks and monies after World War II, so this Nazi theme keeps popping up.

 

BOYLE: Well of course that’s a historical matter and I have that cited in one of my books, but I’m just telling you, being a product of the Neo-Con system that they are Neo-Nazis, they’ve been trained to think like Neo-Nazis, and you don’t have to take my word for it.

 

There is a Canadian Professor of Political Philosophy Shadia Drury, and she’s written two books on these people – The Political Ideas of Leo Strauss and Leo Strauss and the American Right.  And to the best of my knowledge, Professor Drury had no contact with the University of Chicago.  While I was trained to be one of these people – I was at the top of my class there – and I agree fully with everything Professor Drury says…

 

JONES: Now let me stop you there.  What does it mean to you doctor, working with these people at the highest levels, what does it mean studying this, to have Zbignew Brzezinski telling the senate committee, “the government may stage a provocation, a terror attack, to blame it on Iran?”  What does it mean when Gary Hart writes a letter saying, “we stage events.  Don’t think they won’t stage one to attack you?”  He just said it!

 

BOYLE: Well, I went through the same Ph.D. program at Harvard that produced both Brzezinski and Kissinger.  They gave me Kissinger’s old office there at the Center for International Affairs.  I do not believe that Brzezinski would qualify as a Neo-Con.  He is a traditional Real Politicker, but I think Brzezinski is certainly sending a warning to anyone who will listen to him that, based upon his knowledge of these people and the way they operate, that some type of provocation is on the pike – it’ s coming.  So I interpreted the statement he made as a warning by an insider that this is coming.  I don’t know Hart personally, but again, as you know he ran for the president, he was a senator tied into the C.F.R. and that’s the way he sees it too. So I think we have to pay attention and as you point out, Tommy Frank said, “one more terrorist attack and we’re going to shut the Constitution down.”  It’s already been reported that if there is another terrorist attack Cheney’s going to blame it on Iran.

 

I’m sure that they will institute martial law, if not the whole country, certainly selectively.  As you again have correctly pointed out, they have amended the Posse Comitatus Act out of existence; they have amended the Insurrection Act, permitting the president to call out the National Guard for any reason at all; the Protect America Act in August, which basically amended the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act out of existence; the Levi guidelines in the Department of Justice to prevent the Watergate abuses – those were all ended by Ashcroft, so even in the Department of Justice we’re back in the days of Cointelpro and this new Attorney General nominee, Michael Mukasey, he’s a Neo-Con and…

 

JONES: He also covered up government involvement in the first World Trade Center bombing.

 

BOYLE: I’m not familiar with that role, but I do know he was the judge who accepted President Bush’s unilateral and unconstitutional determination that a United States citizen named Jose Padilla was an enemy combatant and transferred a U.S. citizen to a U.S. military brig where he was held for 3 years and tortured.  Now (that’s the) nominee that we have for Attorney General and we also have one at Homeland Security – Chertoff is a Neo-Con as well.

 

JONES: Now Doctor, that brings me up to my next point.  Obviously you know

about the secret order for the torture by Bush.  That completes the circuit.  And they’re putting people in prison for following the orders, but then Bush claimed he wasn’t involved in torture after they had first advertised it and said it was good, so what does that mean in this and then is there any way to stop them from starting World War III and going around and arresting everybody and setting up the Fourth Reich?

 

BOYLE: Well clearly President Bush is at the top of the chain of command.  He gave the orders and he’s fully accountable for all these criminal practices including torture, which violates the Convention Against Torture and a federal statute making torture a crime.

 

JONES: But now he can’t say that he didn’t know.

 

BOYLE: Well of course he knew all along.  He gave the orders.  (laughs).

 

JONES: We knew that from the memos, obviously, but now we have him.

 

BOYLE: Right.  But the point is, what can we do now?  Well, we still have our First Amendment rights.  These Neo-Cons have basically shredded the rest of the Bill of Rights.

 

We can protest, demonstrate, sit in, peaceful, non-violent sit-ins. Cindy Sheehan and others sat in there with Congressman Conyers demanding impeachment – we have to do that.

 

Also we have to run candidates against incumbents that will not support impeachment of Bush and Cheney immediately, to stop this…

 

JONES: Well that was my next point that the Democrats are more Neo-Conish, in many cases, than the Republicans, so how do we deal with that in your opinion and what do we do if they go ahead and stage a new attack or launch a new war and try to have martial law?

 

BOYLE: Well, I’m thinking of that myself.  As I think I told you, I’m on the U.S. government’s terrorist watch lists.  Back in the summer of 2004, an agent from the FBI and an agent from the CIA-FBI Joint Terrorist Task Force showed up at my office, proceeded to interrogate me for one hour and repeatedly asked me to become an informant on my Arab and Muslim clients, which would have violated their constitutional rights and my ethical obligations as an attorney.  I refused to do it, so they put me on all of the government’s terrorist watch lists and as far as my lawyer can figure out, there are five or six of them and I’m on all of them.  So I take it I will be one of the first taken out when this war is started and …

 

JONES: Have you heard about the ambassador who went to an anti-war (event), so now she can’t fly into Canada?

 

BOYLE: Right.  Now I’m on those lists.

 

JONES: I mean, this is Nazi Germany.  That’s what they do now.

 

BOYLE: Well I’m just telling your listening audience, look, whether you like us lawyers or not, but the bottom line is there are a lot of lawyers trying to fight to stop this and we lawyers are sort of the canary birds in the mineshafts of democracy.  When the air goes foul, the canary birds die, warning the miners that it’s time to get out of the mine.  Well, they’re going after lawyers.  They went after Mr. Mayfield in Oregon.  They went after Lynn Stewart in New York.  They tried to go after Ramsey Clark, the former Attorney General.  They’ve come after me.  So, you know, under these circumstances I think people have to decide in accordance with their own consciences, what they’re going to do…

 

JONES: But even with Hitler his own people started fighting him.  It’s got to stall.  80% of people disagree with (Bush) now.  Do you think they’re going too far?  I mean, do you think they’re going to fail?

 

BOYLE: I don’t know.  Isn’t that really up to you and me and your listening audience Alex?

 

JONES: Yeah.  I’m trying as hard as I can doctor Boyle.  Stay there. Final segment with you on the other side….

 

JONES: You were telling me during the break that you flew back into the country, to Chicago, and there were armed guys waiting for you and they took you into custody and you were interrogated and I said “did you speak up and tell them this is America” and you just said “No, I’ve been all over the world and this is just like a communist or fascist country.  You just keep your mouth shut.”  I mean, to see us turn into this – these people are bullies and if we don’t speak up they’re going to win.  There’s no doubt things are going to be worst in the final equation if we don’t speak up.  And I hope everybody out there isn’t intimidated by this.  I hope you get outraged by it.

 

Doctor Boyle, you’ve had to deal with this with courage, speaking out against them and having this happen.  What do you say to folks about fighting tyranny?

 

BOYLE: Well we’re Americans aren’t we?  We came from a background of launching a revolution against tyrants.  I mean it’s in our blood. It’s in our history.  I don’t think I have to give people a lecture here about what they have to do.  I think the purpose of my appearing on the program today is agreeing with you in saying “the hour is close at hand.”  If they attack Iran, they could set off World War III and then institute martial law.  And understand the Neo-Con fiat – they’ve been at war with the Arab and Muslim world, 58 states and 1.5 billion people, for quite some time.  They would be happy to have a war with Iran that could degenerate all over the Middle East.  The Neo-Cons, the Clean Break for Netanyahu by Perle and the rest of them.  They want to redraw the Middle East and break up all the states over there in a manner that would be better able to be controlled by the United States and Israel…

 

JONES: And they want to set up a loyal commissariat secret police state here in the U.S.  So I mean, bottom line then.  That’s what you’re pointing out, if this is part of a chain. They’re not failing in Iraq, they wanted to break it in three parts and sow sectarian violence. They want to spread it, don’t they sir?

 

BOYLE: That’s correct.  From the Neo-Con perspective, Iraq is a great success.  They’ve destroyed Iraq as a state.  They’ve set off a civil war and now there’s ethnic cleansing.  So it doesn’t bother them that they have murdered 3,816 Americans–our mothers and our fathers, our brothers and our sisters, and our sons and our daughters.  And I use the word “murder” as a law professor.  I’ve taught criminal law. “Murder” means the intentional killing of a human being with malice aforethought…

 

JONES: Sir, we’re out of time.  I want to get you up in the next few weeks for a full hour.  Thank you for spending time with us.  You’re the author of several books – one of them Destroying World Order. Thank you for coming on.   

---