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abantu baya kuyivukela loo nto."
UHoward Zinn, oneminyaka engama-85 ubudala, nguNjingalwazi oPhezulu wenzululwazi yezopolitiko kwiYunivesithi yaseBoston. Wazalelwa eBrooklyn, NY, ngo-1922 kwintsapho ehlwempuzekileyo yabaphambukeli. Waqonda kwasebutsheni bakhe ukuba isithembiso se “American Dream”, esiya kuzaliseka kubo bonke abantu abasebenza nzima nabakhutheleyo, sisithembiso nephupha.Ngexesha leMfazwe Yehlabathi yesiBini wajoyina i-US Air Force waza wakhonza. njengebhombardier kwi "Theatre yaseYurophu". Oku kwangqineka kungamava okwakha awalomelezayo nje iinkolelo zakhe zokuba akukho mfazwe yobulungisa. Kwakhona kwabonisa, kwakhona, ubuso bokwenyani bomyalelo wentlalo-qoqosho, apho ukubandezeleka kunye nedini labantu abaqhelekileyo lihlala lisetyenziselwa kuphela ukuphakamisa inzuzo yabambalwa abanelungelo. Nangona wachitha iminyaka yakhe yobutsha encedisa abazali bakhe ekuxhaseni intsapho ngokusebenza kwiinqanawa zeenqanawa, waqala ngezifundo kwiYunivesithi yaseColumbia emva kweWWII, apho wayikhusela ngempumelelo incwadi yakhe yobugqirha ngo-1958. Kamva wamiselwa njengosihlalo wesebe lezembali. kunye nenzululwazi yezentlalo kwiKholeji yaseSpelman, ikholeji yabasetyhini abamnyama bonke e-Atlanta, GA, apho wathatha inxaxheba ngokukhutheleyo kwi-Civil Rights Movement. Kwasekuqalekeni kweMfazwe yaseVietnam wayesebenza phakathi kwentshukumo evelayo echasene nemfazwe, kwaye kule minyaka ilandelayo wongeza ukubandakanyeka kwakhe kwiintshukumo ezinqwenela ukuya kwelinye, ihlabathi elingcono. UZinn ungumbhali weencwadi ezingaphezu kwama-20, kubandakanya Imbali yaBantu yaseMelika yiyo i "imbali eqaqambileyo nechukumisayo yabantu baseMelika ngokwembono yabo baye baxhatshazwa kwezopolitiko nakwezoqoqosho kwaye ingxaki yabo ishiywe kakhulu kwiimbali ezininzi ..." (Ijenali yeThala) Eyona ncwadi yakhe yamva nje inomxholo Igunya Oorhulumente abanako Ukulicinezela, kwaye yingqokelela enika umdla yezincoko ezibhalwe nguZinn kule minyaka imbalwa idlulileyo. Umbhali-mbali othandekayo usafundisa kulo lonke elase-US nakwihlabathi liphela, kwaye, ngokuthatha inxaxheba okubonakalayo kunye nenkxaso yemibutho eyahlukeneyo yentlalontle eqhuba umzabalazo wakhe wenkululeko nobulungisa.
UZiga Vodovnik nguNjingalwazi oNcedisayo weNzululwazi yezoPolitiko kwi-Faculty of Social Sciences, iYunivesithi yaseLjubljana, apho ukufundisa kwakhe kunye nophando lwakhe lugxile kwi-anarchist theory / praxis kunye nokunyakaza kwezentlalo eMelika. Incwadi yakhe entsha Isiphithiphithi soBomi bemihla ngemihla-Amanqaku malunga ne-anarchism kunye neeNdibaniselwano zayo eziLibeleyo iya kukhutshwa ekupheleni kuka-2008.
Ziga Vodovnik:Ukususela ngeminyaka yoo-1980 ukuya phambili sibona inkqubo yokudityaniswa kwezoqoqosho isiya isomelela umhla nezolo. Abaninzi abasekhohlo ngoku babanjwe phakathi "kwengxaki" - nokuba kukusebenzela ukuqinisa ulongamo lwezizwe-zizwe njengomqobo okhuselayo ngokuchasene nolawulo lwenkunzi yangaphandle kunye neyehlabathi; okanye ukuzabalazela enye indlela engeyiyo eyesizwe kwindlela ekhoyo ngoku yomanyano lwamazwe ngamazwe nolunwenwele ehlabathini lonke. Luthini uluvo lwakho ngale nto?
Howard Zinn: Ndiyi-anarchist, kwaye ngokwemigaqo ye-anarchist ilizwe liba ngumqobo kumanyano lwehlabathi lwenene loluntu. Ngandlel’ ithile intshukumo ebhekiselele kumanyano lwamazwe ngamazwe apho oongxowankulu bazama ukutsiba imiqobo yorhulumente wesizwe, idala uhlobo lwethuba lentshukumo yokungahoyi imiqobo yesizwe, nokuhlanganisa abantu kwihlabathi liphela, kwimida yelizwe ukuchasa ukudityaniswa kwenkunzi yelizwe, ukudala. ukudityaniswa kwabantu behlabathi, ngokuchaseneyo nombono wemveli wokudityaniswa kwehlabathi. Ngamanye amazwi ukusebenzisa ukudityaniswa kwehlabathi – akukho nto iphosakeleyo ngengcamango yokudityaniswa kwehlabathi – ngendlela edlula imida yelizwe kwaye ngokuqinisekileyo akukho nto ibandakanyekayo kulawulo lwequmrhu lwezigqibo zezoqoqosho ezenziwa ngabantu kwihlabathi liphela.
ZV: UPierre-Joseph Proudhon wabhala wathi: "Inkululeko ngumama, hayi intombi yocwangco." Ububona phi ubomi emva okanye ngaphaya kwamazwe (esizwe)?
HZ: Ngaphandle kwamazwe ngamazwe? (Ukuhleka) Ndicinga ukuba into elele ngaphaya kwelizwe lilizwe elingenamida yelizwe, kodwa nabantu abalungelelanisiweyo. Kodwa babengalungelelananga njengezizwe, kodwa abantu balungelelaniswa njengamaqela, njengeqela, ngaphandle kobuzwe nalo naluphi na uhlobo lwemida. Ngaphandle kwalo naluphi na uhlobo lwemida, iipasipoti, ii-visa. Akukho nanye kuloo nto! Yeeqoqo zobukhulu obahlukeneyo, kuxhomekeke kumsebenzi weqela, ukuba noqhagamshelwano omnye komnye. Awunakukwazi ukuba neengqokelela ezincinci zokuzimela, kuba ezi ngqokelela zinezixhobo ezahlukeneyo ezikhoyo kubo. Le yinto ithiyori ye-anarchist engakhange isebenze kwaye mhlawumbi ayinakwenzeka kwangethuba, kuba kuya kufuneka isebenze ngokwayo.
ZV: Ngaba ucinga ukuba utshintsho lunokufezekiswa ngezopolitiko zamaqela eziko, okanye kuphela ngeendlela ezizezinye - ngokungathobeli, ukwakha izikhokelo ezihambelanayo, ukuseka enye imithombo yeendaba, njl.
HZ: Ukuba usebenza ngolwakhiwo olukhoyo uya konakala. Ngokusebenza ngenkqubo yezopolitiko etyhefa umoya, kunye nemibutho eqhubela phambili, unokuyibona ngoku e-US, apho abantu "ngasekhohlo" bonke babanjwe kwiphulo lonyulo kwaye bangene kwiingxabano ezibukhali malunga nokuba simele sixhase le nto yesithathu. umgqatswa weqela okanye loo mgqatswa weqela lesithathu. Olu luhlobo lobungqina obuncinci obucebisa ukuba xa ungena ekusebenzeni ngezopolitiko zonyulo uqala ukonakalisa iinjongo zakho. Ngoko ke ndicinga ukuba indlela yokuziphatha kukucinga kungekhona ngokwemigaqo yorhulumente omeleyo, kungekhona ngokwemiqathango yokuvota, kungekhona ngokwezopolitiko zonyulo, kodwa ukucinga malunga nokulungelelanisa imibutho yentlalontle, ukulungelelanisa kwindawo yokusebenza, ukulungelelanisa ekuhlaleni, ukulungelelanisa iimbumba ezinokuthi zibe namandla ngokwaneleyo ukuba ekugqibeleni zithathe indawo - okokuqala ukuba zibe namandla ngokwaneleyo ukuxhathisa oko kwenziwe kubo ngegunya, kwaye okwesibini, emva koko, ukomelela ngokwaneleyo ukuba ngokwenene bathathe amaziko.
ZV: Umbuzo omnye wobuqu. Uyaya kuvoto? Ngaba uyavota?
HZ: Ndiyavuma. Ngamanye amaxesha, hayi rhoqo. Kuyaxhomekeka. Kodwa ndiyakholelwa ukuba kukhethwa ngamanye amaxesha ukuba kubekho umgqatswa omnye kunomnye umgqatswa, ngelixa uqonda ukuba ayisosisombululo eso. Ngamanye amaxesha ububi obuncinci abukho buncinci, ngoko ufuna ukungayihoyi loo nto, kwaye awuvoti okanye uvotele umntu wesithathu njengoqhanqalazo oluchasene nenkqubo yeqela. Ngamanye amaxesha umahluko phakathi kwabagqatswa ababini ubaluleke kakhulu ngoko nangoko, kwaye ke ndiyakholelwa ukuba ukuzama ukungenisa umntu e-ofisini, ongcono kancinane, ongenabungozi kangako, kuyaqondakala. Kodwa ungaze ulibale ukuba kungakhathaliseki ukuba ngubani na ongena esikhundleni, umbuzo obalulekileyo asikokuba ngubani osesikhundleni, kodwa luhlobo luni lwentlangano yentlalo onayo. Kuba siye sabona ngokwembali ukuba ukuba unentshukumo yentlalo enamandla, akukhathaliseki nokuba ngubani osesikhundleni. Nabani na osesikhundleni, banokuba yiRiphabhlikhi okanye iDemocrat, ukuba unentshukumo yentlalo enamandla, umntu osesikhundleni kuya kufuneka anikezele, kuya kufuneka ngandlela thile ahloniphe amandla emibutho yentlalontle.
Oku sakubona ngeminyaka yee-1960. URichard Nixon wayengeyena ububi obuncinci, wayengoyena bubi obukhulu, kodwa kulawulo lwakhe imfazwe ekugqibeleni yafikelela esiphelweni, kuba kwafuneka ajongane namandla entshukumo echasene nemfazwe kunye namandla entshukumo yaseVietnam. . Ndiza kuvota, kodwa ndisoloko ndilumkisa ukuba ukuvota akubalulekanga, kwaye ukulungelelanisa yeyona nto ibalulekileyo.
Xa abanye abantu bendibuza ngokuvota, baye bathi uyamxhasa lo mgqatswa okanye laa mgqatswa? Ndithi: ‘Ndiza kumxhasa lo mgqatswa umzuzu omnye wokuba ndikwindawo yokuvota. Ngelo xesha ndiza kumxhasa uA Ukuqobisana B, kodwa ngaphambi kokuba ndiye kwindawo yokuvota, nasemva kokuba ndiphumile kwindawo yokuvota, ndiza kunikela ingqalelo ekulungelelaniseni abantu nasekulungiseleleni iphulo lonyulo.’
ZV: I-Anarchism kulo mba ichasene ngokufanelekileyo nedemokhrasi yabameli njengoko iseluhlobo lwengcinezelo - ubuzwilakhe besininzi. Bayayichasa ingcamango yovoto lwesininzi, bephawula ukuba iimbono zesininzi azisoloko zingqubana nelungileyo lokuziphatha. U-Thoreau wakha wabhala ukuba sinembopheleleko yokwenza ngokwemigaqo yezazela zethu, nokuba okokugqibela kuchasene noluvo oluninzi okanye imithetho yoluntu. Ngaba uyavumelana noku?
HZ: Ngokuqinisekileyo. URousseau wakha wathi, ukuba ndiyinxalenye yeqela labantu abali-100, ngaba abantu abangama-99 banelungelo lokundigwebela ukufa, ngenxa yokuba besisininzi? Hayi, uninzi lunokungalunganga, uninzi lunokuwongamela amalungelo abantu abambalwa. Ukuba uninzi belulawula, sisenobukhoboka. I-80% yabemi bakha benza amakhoboka angama-20% abantu. Ngelixa iqhutywa ngomgaqo wesininzi kulungile. Leyo yingcinga egwenxa kakhulu yokuba yintoni idemokhrasi. Ulawulo lwentando yesininzi kufuneka luthathele ingqalelo izinto ezininzi - iimfuno ezilinganayo zabantu, hayi nje iimfuno zabaninzi, kodwa neemfuno zabambalwa. Kwaye kwakhona kufuneka kuthathelwe ingqalelo ukuba uninzi, ngakumbi kwiindawo apho amajelo eendaba alawula uluvo loluntu, anokuba gwenxa ngokupheleleyo kwaye angendawo. Ke ewe, abantu kufuneka benze ngokwesazela hayi ngevoti yesininzi.
ZV: Uyibona phi imvelaphi yembali ye-anarchism e-United States?
HZ: Enye yeengxaki zokujongana ne-anarchism kukuba kukho abantu abaninzi abaneengcamango ze-anarchist, kodwa abangazibizi ngokuba ngama-anarchists. Eli gama laqala ukusetyenziswa nguProudhon embindini wenkulungwane ye-19, kodwa eneneni kwakukho iingcamango ze-anarchist ezathi zavela eProudhon, ezo zaseYurophu kunye nase-United States. Ngokomzekelo, kukho ezinye iimbono zikaThomas Paine, owayengenguye u-anarchist, owayengazibizi ngokuba yi-anarchist, kodwa wayekrokrela urhulumente. Kwakhona uHenry David Thoreau. Akalazi igama elithi anarchism, kwaye akalisebenzisi igama elithi anarchism, kodwa iingcamango zikaThoreau zisondele kakhulu kwi-anarchism. Uchasa kakhulu zonke iintlobo zoorhulumente. Ukuba silanda imvelaphi ye-anarchism e-United States, ngoko ke mhlawumbi i-Thoreau ngoyena ukufutshane unokuza kwi-anarchist yaseMelika yokuqala. Awukhe udibane ne-anarchism de kube semva kweMfazwe yamakhaya, xa unama-anarchists aseYurophu, ngakumbi ama-anarchists aseJamani, eza eUnited States. Ngokwenene baqalisa ukulungelelanisa. Ixesha lokuqala lokuba i-anarchism ibe nombutho olungelelanisiweyo kwaye yaziwa esidlangalaleni e-United States iseChicago ngexesha leHaymarket Affair.
ZV: Uyibona phi eyona mpembelelo iphambili ye-anarchism yangoku e-United States? Uthini uluvo lwakho malunga neTranscendentalism - oko kukuthi, uHenry D. Thoreau, uRalph W. Emerson, uWalt Whitman, uMargaret Fuller, et al. - njengenkuthazo kulo mbono?
HZ: Ewe, i-Transcendentalism, sinokuthi, yindlela yokuqala ye-anarchism. AbakwaTranscendentalists nabo abazange bazibize ngokuba ngama-anarchists, kodwa kukho iingcamango ze-anarchist ekucingeni kwabo kunye nakuncwadi lwabo. Ngeendlela ezininzi uHerman Melville ubonisa ezinye zeembono ze-anarchist. Bonke babelirhanela igunya. Sisenokuthi iTranscendentalism idlale indima ekudaleni umoya wokuthandabuza amagunya, ngakurhulumente.
Ngelishwa, namhlanje akukho ntshukumo yokwenyani ye-anarchist e-United States. Kukho amaqela amaninzi abalulekileyo okanye iingqokelela ezizibiza ngokuba yi-anarchist, kodwa zincinci. Ndiyakhumbula ukuba ngo-1960 kwakukho i-anarchist collective apha eBoston eyayiquka abantu abalishumi elinesihlanu (sic!), kodwa ke bahlukana. Kodwa ngeminyaka yee-1960 ingcamango ye-anarchism yabaluleka ngakumbi ngokunxulumene neentshukumo zoo-1960.
ZV: Uninzi lwamandla okudala ezopolitiko ezikhawulezayo namhlanje zivela kwi-anarchism, kodwa bambalwa abantu ababandakanyekayo kwintshukumo abazibiza ngokuba "ngama-anarchists". Usibona phi esona sizathu siphambili soku? Ngaba amatsha ntliziyo aneentloni zokuzazisa ngesi siko lobungqondi, okanye endaweni yoko anyanisekile kwisibophelelo sokuba inkululeko yokwenene ifuna ukukhululwa kuyo nayiphi na ileyibhile?
HZ: Igama elithi anarchism liye lanxulunyaniswa nezinto ezimbini apho i-anarchist yokwenyani ingafuni ukuzidibanisa nayo. Olunye lugonyamelo, yaye olunye lugonyamelo okanye isiphithiphithi. Ingcamango ethandwayo ye-anarchism kwelinye icala lokuphosa ibhombu kunye nobugrogrisi, kwaye kwelinye icala akukho mithetho, akukho mimiselo, akukho ingqeqesho, wonke umntu wenza oko akufunayo, ukudideka, njl. Kungoko kukho ukuthandabuza ukusebenzisa i igama elithi anarchism. Kodwa eneneni iingcamango ze-anarchism zifakwe kwindlela iintshukumo ze-1960 zaqala ukucinga.
Ndicinga ukuba mhlawumbi olona bonakaliso lubalaseleyo lwalukwintshukumo yamalungelo oluntu kunye ne IKomiti yokuLungelelanisa yabaFundi engenabundlobongela – SNCC. I-SNCC ngaphandle kokwazi malunga ne-anarchism njengefilosofi iqulethe iimpawu ze-anarchism. Baye basasazwa amagunya. Eminye imibutho elwela amalungelo oluntu, umzekelo iNkomfa yobuNkokheli bobuKristu eSixhenxe, yayiyimibutho esembindini enenkokeli - uMartin Luther King. Umbutho kaZwelonke wokuPhuthukisa abantu abaBala (NAACP) zazizinze eNew York, kwaye zazinolunye uhlobo lombutho ophakathi. I-SNCC, kwelinye icala, yayinatyisiwe ngokupheleleyo. Yayinabo babebabiza ngokuba ngoonobhala basentsimini, ababesebenza kwiidolophu ezincinane kuwo wonke uMzantsi, benokuzimela geqe. Babeneofisi eAtlanta, eGeorgia, kodwa iofisi yayingelogunya elingqongqo. Abantu ababesebenza entsimini - eAlabama, eGeorgia, eLouisiana, naseMississippi - babebodwa kakhulu. Babesebenza kunye nabantu basekuhlaleni, kunye nabantu abaphantsi. Kwaye ke akukho nkokeli enye ye-SNCC, kunye nokukrokra okukhulu kurhulumente, ngenxa yamava e-SNCC. Babengenakuxhomekeka kurhulumente ukuba abancede, abaxhase, nangona urhulumente welo xesha, ebutsheni beminyaka yee-1960, wayegqalwa njengonenkqubela, ekhululekile. John F. Kennedy ingakumbi. Kodwa bajonga kuJohn F. Kennedy, babona indlela awayeziphethe ngayo. UJohn F. Kennedy wayengawuxhasi umbutho waseMzantsi wamalungelo alinganayo kubantu abaMnyama. Wayemisela abagwebi abacalulayo eMzantsi, wayevumela abacalucalulo abasemazantsi ukuba benze nantoni na abafuna ukuyenza. Ke i-SNCC yahlulwa, ichasene norhulumente, ngaphandle kobunkokeli, kodwa babengenawo umbono woluntu oluzayo olufana ne-anarchists. Bebengacingi ixesha elide, bebengabuzi ukuba siya kuba noluntu olunjani kwixesha elizayo. Babegxile ngokwenene kwingxaki ekhawulezileyo yocalucalulo lobuhlanga. Kodwa isimo sabo sengqondo, indlela abasebenza ngayo, indlela ababelungelelaniswe ngayo, yayihamba, unokuthi, imigca ye-anarchist.
ZV: Ngaba uyayibona into yokuba ukusetyenziswa kakubi kwegama elithi anarchism sisiphumo esithe ngqo sokuba izimvo zokuba abantu banokukhululeka, bekunjalo kwaye boyikeka kakhulu kwabo basemagunyeni?
HZ: Akukho mathandabuzo! Ngokungathandabuzekiyo iingcamango ze-anarchist ziyaboyikisa abo baphetheyo. Abantu abanegunya bayakwazi ukunyamezela iingcamango zenkululeko. Banokuzinyamezela iingcamango ezifuna uhlaziyo, kodwa abanakuyinyamezela ingcamango yokuba akuyi kubakho rhulumente, kungabikho gunya liphakathi. Ngoko ke kubaluleke kakhulu ukuba bahlekise ingcamango ye-anarchism ukudala le ngcamango ye-anarchism njengobundlobongela kunye nesiphithiphithi. Iluncedo kubo, ewe.
ZV: Kwithiyori yezopolitiko yenzululwazi singakwazi ukubona ngocalucalulo iimbono ezimbini eziphambili ze-anarchism-into ebizwa ngokuba yi-anarchism eqokelelweyo ekhawulelwe eYurophu, kwaye kwelinye icala i-anarchism yomntu ngamnye ekhawulelwe e-US. Ngaba uyavumelana nolu lwahlulo lohlalutyo?
HZ: Kum oku kukwahlulwa okwenziweyo. Njengoko kuqhele ukwenzeka abahlalutyi banokwenza izinto zibe lula kubo, njengokwenza iindidi kunye nokulungelelanisa iintshukumo kwiindidi, kodwa andiqondi ukuba ungayenza loo nto. Apha e-United States, ngokuqinisekileyo bekukho abantu abakholelwa kwi-anarchism yomntu, kodwa e-United States baye baququzelelwa i-anarchists yaseChicago ngo-1880 okanye i-SNCC. Ndicinga ukuba kuzo zombini iimeko, eYurophu nase-United States, ufumana zombini izibonakaliso, ngaphandle kokuba mhlawumbi eYurophu umbono we-anarcho-syndicalism unamandla eYurophu kunase-US. Ngelixa e-US unayo i-IWW, engumbutho we-anarcho-sindicalist kwaye ngokuqinisekileyo awuhambelani ne-anarchism yomntu.
ZV: Luthini uluvo lwakho malunga "nengxaki" yeendlela - revolution ngokuchasene nentlalo nenkcubeko?
HZ: Ndicinga ukuba kukho imibuzo emininzi eyahlukeneyo. Enye yazo ngumba wobundlobongela, kwaye ndiyacinga ukuba apha ama-anarchists awavumelani. Apha e-US ufumana ukungaboni ngasonye, kwaye unokufumana oku kungavumelani ngaphakathi komntu omnye. U-Emma Goldman, unokuthi wazisa i-anarchism, emva kokuba efile, e-US kwi-1960s, xa ngokukhawuleza waba ngumntu obalulekileyo. Kodwa u-Emma Goldman wayethanda ukubulawa kukaHenry Clay Frick, kodwa emva koko wagqiba kwelokuba le ayisiyiyo indlela. Umhlobo wakhe kunye neqabane, u-Alexander Berkman, akazange anikezele ngokupheleleyo kwingcamango yobundlobongela. Kwelinye icala, unabantu ababene-anarchistic ngendlela efana no-Tolstoy kunye no-Gandhi, ababekholelwa ekungabini nobundlobongela.
Kukho uphawu olulodwa oluphambili lwe-anarchism kumba weendlela, kwaye loo mgaqo-siseko ngumgaqo-siseko wesenzo esithe ngqo-sokungahambi ngeendlela uluntu olunikezela ngazo, zorhulumente omeleyo, zokuvota, umthetho, kodwa ngokuthatha amandla ngokuthe ngqo. . Kwimeko yeemanyano zabasebenzi, kwimeko ye-anarcho-syndicalism, kuthetha ukuba abasebenzi baya kugwayimbo, hayi nje loo nto, kodwa eneneni babambe amashishini abasebenza kuwo kwaye bawalawule. Yintoni isenzo esithe ngqo? Emazantsi xa abantu abantsundu babeququzelela ucalucalulo ngokobuhlanga, babengalindi ukuba urhulumente abanike umqondiso, okanye bagqithe ezinkundleni, bamangalele, balinde iNkongolo ukuba iwise umthetho. Bathabatha inyathelo elithe ngqo; bangena kwiindawo zokutyela, behleli phantsi apho kwaye bengafuni ukushukuma. Bakhwela kwezo bhasi baza balinganisa imeko ababefuna ukuphila ngayo.
Kakade ke, ugwayimbo luhlala luhlobo lwesenzo esithe ngqo. Nangolu qhankqalazo, awuceli urhulumente ukuba akwenzele izinto lula ngokuwisa umthetho, uthatha amanyathelo angqalileyo ngakumqeshi. Ndiya kuthi, ngokubhekiselele kwiindlela ezihamba ngayo, ingcamango yesenzo esithe ngqo ngokuchasene nobubi ofuna ukuboyisa luhlobo oluthile lweengcamango ze-anarchist, iintshukumo ze-anarchist. Ndisacinga ukuba omnye wemigaqo ebalulekileyo ye-anarchism kukuba awukwazi ukwahlula iindlela kunye neziphelo. Kwaye oko kukuthi, ukuba isiphelo sakho singuluntu olulinganayo kufuneka usebenzise iindlela zokulingana, ukuba isiphelo sakho asiyiyo intlalo enobundlobongela ngaphandle kwemfazwe, awukwazi ukusebenzisa imfazwe ukuze ufezekise isiphelo sakho. Ndicinga ukuba i-anarchism ifuna iindlela kwaye iphele ukuba ihambelane. Ndicinga ukuba le yenye yeempawu eziphawulekayo ze-anarchism.
ZV: Ngesinye isihlandlo uNoam Chomsky wabuzwa ngombono wakhe othile woluntu lwe-anarchist kunye nesicwangciso sakhe esineenkcukacha zokuya apho. Wayiphendula loo nto "Asikwazi ukuqonda ukuba zeziphi iingxaki eziza kuvela ngaphandle kokuba uzame ngazo." Ngaba nawe unoluvo lokuba uninzi lweengqondi ezishiyekileyo ziphulukana namandla amaninzi ngeengxabano zabo zethiyori malunga neendlela ezifanelekileyo kunye neziphelo, ukuqala "ukuzama" ekusebenzeni?
HZ: Ndicinga ukuba kufanelekile ukubonisa izimvo, njengoko uMichael Albert wenzayo Parecon umzekelo, nangona ugcina ukuguquguquka. Asikwazi ukwenza isicwangciso soluntu lwexesha elizayo ngoku, kodwa ndicinga ukuba kulungile ukucinga ngaloo nto. Ndicinga ukuba kulungile ukuba nosukelo engqondweni. Kuyakha, kuyanceda, kunempilo, ukucinga ukuba uluntu lwexesha elizayo lunokuba njani na, kuba ke luyakukhokela noko wenza ntoni namhlanje, kodwa kuphela nje ukuba ezi ngxoxo malunga noluntu lwexesha elizayo zingabi yimiqobo sisebenzela olu luntu lwexesha elizayo. Kungenjalo unokuchitha uxoxa ngale nto inokwenzeka ye-utopian xa uthelekisa nokuba kungenzeka, kwaye okwangoku awusebenzi ngendlela enokukusondeza kuloo nto.
ZV: Yakho Imbali yaBantu yaseMelika usibonisa ukuba inkululeko yethu, amalungelo, imigangatho yokusingqongileyo, njl., ayizange inikwe thina kwizityebi kunye nabambalwa abanempembelelo, kodwa bahlala besilwa ngabantu abaqhelekileyo - ngokungathobeli uluntu. Afanele abe yintoni kule nkalo amanyathelo ethu okuqala esiya kwelinye, ihlabathi elilunge ngakumbi?
HZ: Ndicinga ukuba inyathelo lethu lokuqala kukuzicwangcisa kunye nokuqhankqalaza ngokuchasene nocwangco olukhoyo - ngokuchasene nemfazwe, ngokuchasene nokuxhatshazwa kwezoqoqosho kunye nezesondo, ngokuchasene nobuhlanga, njl. indlela yokudala uhlobo lobudlelwane babantu obufanele ukubakho kuluntu lwexesha elizayo. Oko kuya kuthetha ukuba sizilungelelanise ngaphandle kokubekwa kumbindi wegunya, ngaphandle kwenkokeli ekhaliphileyo, ngendlela ebonisa ngokufutshane eyona nto ifanelekileyo yoluntu olulingano lwexesha elizayo. Ukuze nokuba awuphumeleli uloyiso oluthile ngomso okanye kunyaka ozayo okwangoku wenze imodeli. Udlale ngendlela uluntu oluza kuba yiyo kwaye wenze ulwaneliseko olukhawulezileyo, nokuba awukayiphumezi injongo yakho yokugqibela.
ZV: Luthini uluvo lwakho malunga neenzame ezahlukeneyo zokungqina ngokwenzululwazi ukucinga kwe-ontological ka-Bakunin yokuba abantu "banethuku lenkululeko", hayi nje kodwa kunye nesidingo sebhayoloji?
HZ: Ngokwenyani ndiyakholelwa kolu luvo, kodwa ndicinga ukuba awunakuba nobungqina bebhayoloji boku. Kuya kufuneka ufumane ufuzo lwenkululeko? Hayi. Ndicinga ukuba enye indlela enokwenzeka kukuhamba ngembali yokuziphatha komntu. Imbali yokuziphatha komntu ibonisa lo mnqweno wenkululeko, ibonisa ukuba ngalo lonke ixesha abantu bebephila phantsi kwengcinezelo, abantu baya kuvukela oko.