Kukurukura nezvebhuku rake idzva, Maguta Echimurenga, David Harvey anotaura nezvegakava rakatenderedza horizontalism, centralism uye anarchism. Chikamu 1 chebvunzurudzo iyi chinogona kuwanikwa pano.
Mupepeti: Ndinoda kudzoka kune zvamabata pamusoro pekugamuchira kuwanda kwezvirongwa, uye zvine chekuita nazvo munotaura nezvekudiwa kwemhando dzakasiyana dzesangano. Wakapinda mugakava rinogara uye dzimwe nguva rinotyisa rave richiitika kwenguva yakareba asi rave rakanyanya mumakore mashoma apfuura, pakati pe 'horizontalists' uye 'centralists' kana 'verticalists'. Unogona kuwedzera pane izvo, uye kuti zvine hukama sei nekuongorora kwako kwe capitalism neguta?
David: Ndinofunga kuti pane kubatanidza kukuru iko zvino kune horizontality. Ndinoedza kutaura kuvadzidzi kuti ndinoda kupedza nguva yakawanda yehupenyu hwangu, asi ndinodawo kumira zvakanaka nguva nenguva uye kufamba-famba! Nokuti ndinofunga kuti izvi hazvibatsiri. Asi zvakare, ini handisi kupokana nekuve wakachinjika sezvaunokwanisa. Pane zvandinodaidza mubhuku rudzi rwehunyambiri hwechimiro chesangano, uye izvo zvaive zvakaipa mudemocracy centralist mafomu esangano, mapato eLeninist nemapato eCommunist.
Ndinofunga zvakare, mubvunzo kwandiri ndewekuti isangano rudzii rinokwanisa kutarisana nekugadzirisa dambudziko rerudzii, pachiyero chipi? Uye ini ndinofunga kuti horizontality inogona kushanda nemamwe matambudziko pane mamwe mashekeri, asi inokurumidza kupera kunze kwemikana. Isu tinorarama munyika umo kune akawanda akasimba akabatana masisitimu akatenderedza, akanyatsobatanidzwa nenzira yekuti iwe unoda kuraira uye zvimiro zvekutonga nekukasira kubata nazvo. Semuenzaniso, chiteshi chemagetsi enyukireya igadziriro yakabatana zvakasimba. Kana chimwe chinhu chisina kumira zvakanaka mairi, iwe unofanirwa kuita nekukurumidza nekuti kana zvisina kudaro ichaenda nekukurumidza kuburikidza nechinhu chose uye kuputika. Iyo yunivhesiti haisi yakasimba yakabatana system. Kana chimwe chinhu chikatadza mazviri, taura kuti mumwe munhu haauye kuzotora hurukuro, hazvina basa. Yunivhesiti inopona zvakakwana. Asi mumasisitimu akabatana akasimba unoda kuita sarudzo nekukurumidza.
Saka ini ndinoti kune vese vanhu vari horizontalists, iwe unoda kuronga kutonga kwendege padanho rehorizontalist? Iwe unoda kuve nemagungano nguva dzese mumhepo yekudzora traffic tower? Izvi zvaizoshanda here? Waizonzwa sei dai wanga uri pakati pekuyambuka Atlantic, uye vakaerekana voti "chaizvoizvo, vadzori vemhepo vachangobva kupinda mumusangano, uye vachatizivisa mangwana zvavachaita"? Pane zvinhu zvakawanda zvakadai izvo zvinoda chimiro chesangano chakasiyana zvachose, uye ndinofunga zvakanaka kuti vanhu vari kutaura nezve horizontality, asi zvakaipa kuti ivo vanoti inofanira kunge yakachinjika kana kuti hapana.
Mupepeti: Inobva pane kanenge quasi-anarchism, uye kunyumwira kwakadzama kwechero chimiro chechiremera. Uri kureva here kuti, kuti uve munhu anopikisa, kuve anti-capitalist, uchiri kufanira kuziva kuti chiremera chine nzvimbo yacho dzimwe nguva?
David: Ehe saizvozvo. Ndinofunga kuti chiremera chine nzvimbo yacho. Dambudziko rinounzwa neizvi, uye rakakosha zvikuru, unoita sei kuti masimba azvidavirire? Ndedzipi nzira dzekurangarira, uye ndedzipi nzira dzekutonga, nekuti chimiro chehierarchical chinogona kuve chepamusoro-pasi uye nehutongi. Asi pane musiyano mukuru pakati pehudzvanyiriri nechiremera. Ndinofunga kuti pane dzimwe nguva unoda mumwe munhu kuti ave nesimba.
Muenzaniso wakakurumbira unotorwa nevanhu vazhinji ungave maZapatistas. Asi maZapatistas, zvechiuto, haana kutwasuka. Chikonzero chega chekuti vapone ndechekuti kana ukaedza kukanganisa navo muchiuto, vane murairo wakanaka kwazvo uye zvimiro zvekutonga mavanogona kuramba. Uye kana iwe usina izvozvo, iwe uri panjodzi. Imwe yekutsoropodza yaigara ichiitwa yeParis Commune yaive yekuti, nekuti chikamu chikuru chayo chakarererwa mumhando yehuzivi hwehuzivi, pakanga pasina chiremera chepakati chekudzivirira guta rose. Vanhu vaidzivirira zvavo arrondissement, asi kwete guta rose, saka mauto ehondo aigona kupinda nyore nyore nokuti pakanga pasina murayiro uye gadziriro yekudzora yokudzivisa nechisimba kuvhozhokera kwakauya.
John: Iwe unotaura mubhuku nezve Murray Bookchin, uye maitiro ake seimwe nzira yekubuda mudambudziko iri rechiyero. Tiudze nezvazvo.
David: Kuve geographer, iyo yechinyakare radicalism mune geography yaigara ichisagadzikana, uye vanarchist vane nhoroondo refu, kunyanya vesocial anarchists, yekunyanya kufarira nyaya dzezvakatipoteredza uye dzemumaguta kupfuura marxists [Ndinoshandisa capital 'M' asi zviri pachena. hapana zviperengo zvakabvumiranwa zve 'marxist'] zvakambovapo. Uye zvechokwadi vakashandisa simba rakawanda mumakore apfuura pakuronga maitiro uye mune zvimwe zvinhu, uye une nhamba dzakaita saLewis Mumford achibuda mutsika iyoyo wandinofunga kuti anga ane simba uye ane simba zvakanyanya kwandiri, zviri pachena. Uye Bookchin anoenderera mberi netsika iyoyo, uye saka ini ndiri kufarira zvinyorwa zvake nezve libertarian municipalism, kwaanotaura nezve yakachinjika mafomu esangano akaiswa, asi obva ataura nezve mubatanidzwa wemagungano edunhu, kana uchida, anogona kutaura kune zvinodikanwa zvebio-dunhu pane kutaura kune zvinodikanwa zveiyo commune, kana chero chaunoda kuidaidza.
Saka aive akagadzirira kufunga nezvechimiro chevakuru cheimwe mhando, obva aedza kutaura nezve nzira iyo masimba akagoverwa nayo uye kuti anofanira kunge ari pamusoro pei. Akashandisa diki diki reSaint-Simonian, kureva kuti mazinga epamusoro anofanira kunge ari pamusoro pekutonga kwezvinhu zvisiri zvevanhu. Kuti vazvinetseke nekutonga, toti, kufambiswa kwemvura mudunhu rose, kana kufambiswa kwemasuweji mudunhu rose, asi kwete kutarisira zvinoitwa nevanhu. Zvakaoma kupatsanura kumapurisa chaiwo, asi pfungwa yandinofunga inonakidza. Saka ndinoona pfungwa dzaBookchin dzichinakidza kwazvo.
Ndakaita musangano muNew York mavhiki mashoma kumashure naDavid Graeber, uye Murray Bookchin akauya muhurukuro. Zvakazoitika kuti mwanasikana waMurray Bookchin akanga ari muvateereri, uye takazotaura pashure pamusoro pokuwana sarudzo yose yezvimwe zvakanyorwa naBookchin pamubvunzo uyu, nokuiisa pamwe chete mubhuku duku. Ini ndinofunga inguva yakanaka kwazvo kudzoreredza iyo anarchist tsika, iyo yakagadzirira kutaura nezve mimwe yeiyi mibvunzo yakakura, senge unotora sei ese aya magungano ekanzuru uye kwete kuzviisa munzvimbo yakaoma yekuti avo vane zviwanikwa zvakawanda vanove. Kunyanya kupfuma, uye avo vasina zviwanikwa vanove varombo zvakanyanya? Pane nzira yekuenzana pakati pemagungano emanisipala, uye kana zvirizvo, neipi nzira yaungatarisa padanho repamusoro remubatanidzwa nezvimwe zvakadaro?
Mupepeti: Maonero ako eizvozvo anoita sekuti pakupedzisira uchada nyika, uye zvinoita sekunge iwe unofunga kuti Bookchin angangozobvuma izvozvo asi asingazvibvume.
David: Ehe. Iwe unoziva, kana ichitaridzika senyika, uye ichiita senge nyika, uye quacks senyika, saka inyika. Ini ndaigona kuona kuti pane chimwe chinhu chaungadaidza kuti capitalist state, iyo munhu angada kupwanya nekubvisa, asi pane imwe nzira yesangano inozofanirwa kunge iri pamusoro pehukama pakati pemagungano akasiyana nemapoka akasiyana. Uye pahwaro hwepasirese, iwe unofanirwawo kufunga pane imwe nguva nezve dzimwe nyaya senge kudziya kwepasirese, izvo zvinofanirwa kugadziriswa nekunzwisiswa padanho repasi rose, uye nekudaro mamwe mazano ezvekuita nezvazvo anofanirwa kubuda kubva pasirese. zvinonetsa.
John: Izvi zvinodzokera kune chimwe chinhu chawaitaura nezvacho kare, nezvekuronga nharaunda. Pane musiyano, handizivi kuti kupikisa here, pakati pemadhorobha nevasiri vemaguta.
David: Vanhu vazhinji vanondibvunza mubvunzo uyu. Vanoti “guta racho harichina, saka sei muchitaura nezvekodzero yechinhu chisipo chaizvo?”, uyezve “uri kutaura nezveguta, sei usiri kutaura nezvazvo. kumaruwa, sei usiri kutaura zvekumusha?”. Mhinduro yangu kune izvozvo ndeyekuti isu, pamakore makumi mashanu apfuura, tave nyika ine maguta, uye chii chingave chaive chokwadi pane imwe nguva, kuti kwaive nehupenyu hwemudhorobha uyezve hupenyu hwehurombo hwaive hwakanyanya. kuzviriritira, kuzvimiririra, zvichingodaro - izvo zvakanyangarika zvakanyanya. Zvaunoona kuenderera mberi pakati peminda nzira inopinda mumaguta, saka vanobatana zvine hungwaru, uye kuona kwangu kuri munzvimbo zhinji dzepasi, muLatin America semuenzaniso, kana uri kumaruwa. nzvimbo, vari kuona TV imwechete, uye vari kutyaira mota dzakafanana, uye ndizvo zvandinodaidza kusaenzana kwebudiriro yenzvimbo mukati mekuita kwemaguta.
Uye kubva pamaonero iwayo unoti misiyano iri mukati meguta yakangokosha sezvakaita misiyano pakati peguta nemasabhabhu, nemasabhubhu nenzvimbo dziri pedyo neguta. Saka pane mutsauko wakawanda unoitika mukati memaitiro emaguta, saka mutsauko uripo pakati penzvimbo dzinotambira mari zhinji nenzvimbo dzevarombo wakangofanana, mune dzimwe nzira unoshamisa, pane izvo zviri pakati pezviri kuitika muguta uye zviri kuitika kunze. ikoko.
Pane mafomu ehurongwa zvino anoratidza izvi - kana ukatarisa musangano wevarimi vasina minda muBrazil, inonyatsoziva kubatana kwayo kwemadhorobha. Iyo haizvione senge neimwe nzira kunze uko munyika inozvitonga, inozviona sechikamu cheiyi nzira yekugara mumaguta. Ndiyo nzira yandingada kutarisa nayo izvi, zvinoreva kuti zvakakosha kurongedza pane zvese izvi zvinhu. Pane kuyedza kuri kuitika mune dzimwe nzvimbo kuronga cheni yechikafu muguta, umo iwe unotanga muminda wobva waenda nenzira nematanho akasiyana - kuzadza nzira kuenda kuchitoro chikuru - uye ndinofunga. ipfungwa inofadza zvikuru. MuEl Alto, unova mumwe wemienzaniso yandinofarira, kubatana pakati pevanhu vari kugara muguta nevanhu vanogara kunze uko kwakasimba kwazvo, uye kwakasimbiswa mumakore gumi kana gumi nemashanu apfuura nekuda kweagri- bhizinesi uye nzira yekumaruwa yakashandurwa kuita capitalist landscape.
Mupepeti: Saka chimurenga urbanism imhando yepasirese chimiro cheshanduko yezvematongerwo enyika?
David: Hongu, ndingapikisa kuti ndizvo. Chikonzero chega chandinonamatira neshoko rekuti "guta" iguta rine chirevo chechiratidzo, uye ndiyo inotariswa nezviroto uye utopias, nezvimwe zvakadaro, saka uri kudaidza fungidziro nezveguta rakanaka, iro guta chikomo, zvose zvemhando yezvinhu. Saka ini ndinonamatira nezwi rekuti "guta", asi ndinonzwisisa zvakakwana kuti guta riri mumhando yekubatana, iro rakasiyaniswa kubva kune zvimwe zvese, rakanyangarika.
ZNetwork inopihwa mari chete kuburikidza nerupo rwevaverengi vayo.
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