Kweinopfuura chikamu chimwe muzvina chezana remakore, mutori wenhau uye munyori David Barsamian anga ari izwi risinganeti rekururamisira kwevanhu, nhepfenyuro kubva kuIndia, kuSyria, kusvika kuUnited States. Barsamian, uyo anonzi Howard Zinn "The Studs Terkel yenguva yedu," ndiye muvambi uye mutungamiriri weAlternative Radio, yakavakirwa muBoulder, Colo.www.alternativeradio.org) Kubvunzurudza kwake uye zvinyorwa zvinogara zvichibuda mu "The Progressive" uye "Z Magazine." Ndiye munyori pamwe chete wemabhuku akati wandei naNoam Chomsky, Arundhati Roy, Edward Said, Tariq Ali, Howard Zinn, naEqbal Ahmed, kusanganisira, nguva pfupi yadarika, Masystem Emagetsi naNoam Chomsky.
Mubvunzurudzo iyi, Barsamian inotaura nezve zvikonzero uye zvimwe zvekumukira kwepasi rose uye kuratidzira. Hurukuro yacho inochera kubatana pakati pe capitalism, shanduko yemamiriro ekunze, urombo, uye inonongedza kudikanwa kwe "kuchengetedza kusava netariro kwenguva dziri nani."
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Khatchig Mouradian- Unoverenga sei kuratidzira kukuru uye kusagadzikana kwemagariro pasi rose mumakore achangopfuura?
David Barsamian-Pakave nekuwanda kwekupokana uye kupokana kwezvematongerwo enyika mumakore gumi apfuura, semhedzisiro yekutadza kweiyo neo-liberal mitemo yehupfumi, iyo yakapfumisa vashoma vevakuru uye varombo vanhu vazhinji. Saka kune dambudziko rehupfumi re capitalism uye isu tinofanirwa kutsvaga aya akasiyana anopikisa mafambiro mune iwo mamiriro. Ehe, chimiro chekufamba chakasiyana nenzvimbo nekuda kwemamiriro enhoroondo, masikirwo emarudzi, chitendero, nezvimwe zvinhu.
Mhirizhonga iyi inopesana nekuendesa hupfumi kuvanhu vashoma vane hukama nehurumende asi vamwe vanhu vakasiiwa. Chitima chabva pachiteshi, uye mulocomotive mune vapfumi uye plutocrats uye maCEO, nepo dzimwe mota dzinotakura vanhu dzichisara kumashure. Iwo mabroker emagetsi akazvitsaura kubva kunyika dzawo, neimwe nzira. Ivo vakazvipira kuunganidza hupfumi uye capital zvekuti ivo vanopesana nenyika, vanoda kuve chikamu che nyika economic elite, nekuti capital haina miganhu.
Nhasi, nekudzvanya kwebhatani mamirioni emadhora anogona kutamiswa kuyambuka miganhu nenzira inodzivirira mutero uye kuzvidavirira. Zvinoenderana nekumwe fungidziro, inosvika madhora makumi matatu emadhora akatemerwa kure mumaakaundi akasiyana nenzvimbo dzemutero idzo dzinoti hadzigone mutero. Izvi zvakakosha, nekuti sechikamu cheneo-liberal ajenda, masevhisi emagariro akaderedzwa uye izvo zvaimbova zvivakwa zvenyika zvakatengeswa kumakambani akazvimirira. Semuenzaniso, pese pandinonzwa izwi rekuti "public-private partnerships," ndinodedera. Zvinonzwika zvinoshamisa. Asi zvinorevei? Ini ndiri ruzhinji, iwe unotora zvese kubva kwandiri, iwe unobatsirwa, uye ini mari kuti! Ndiko kudyidzana! Neimwe nzira tiri kubira nyika idzi zviwanikwa, tichidzitorera ramangwana radzo uye kuparadza nharaunda. Ndiwo mabviro ekumukirana uku.
KM-Kuvhiringidzika uye hasha zvave zvichikwira kwenguva yakati.
DB—MuMiddle East, hasha dzakanga dzichiwedzera mumakore. Uye pakupedzisira, moto wakauya: Mutengesi wemichero, [Tarek al-Tayeb Mohamed] Bouazizi muTunisia, akazvipisira moto nekuti aishungurudzwa uye kunyadziswa nevakuru vehurumende. Izvi zvakakonzera kuratidzira kuTunisia, uko kwakatungamira kuEgypt, uko kwakatungamira kuLibya neSyria. Kusvika pari zvino ma monarchies akabudirira mukupwanya chero kupikiswa.
Vanhu vari kunzwa kumanikidzwa kukuru. Zvakaoma uye zvakaoma kupa chikafu chakakwana kuti mhuri dzigare nechiremera, dzive nehupenyu hwakanaka. Capitalism yatora dambudziko rakashata uye rekupamba. Marx akataura nezve capitalism ne "werewolf nzara" yepurofiti. Makambani akawana simba guru rehupfumi nezvematongerwo enyika. Vakagoneswa nemapato ezvematongerwo enyika echinyakare anoshanda padhuze nevakomana vari muma suites vachibhadharisa vanhu mumigwagwa. Tinogona kuona kuti iko kuno kuUS, uko mapato maviri aya haana kusiyana zvakanyanya pazvinhu zvakakosha. Semuenzaniso, hapana kusawirirana pane capitalism pachayo. Muchokwadi hapana nhaurirano ye capitalism. Izwi harina kutaurwa. Iyo capitalism inodzidziswa mumadhipatimendi ehupfumi kumayunivhesiti epamusoro haina hukama neiyo chaiyo iripo capitalism, inotsamira zvakanyanya padziviriro yenyika uye rubatsiro.
Saka kune hasha idzi pasi rose, kunyanya kumaruwa. Siria neIndia mienzaniso yakanaka. MuSyria, kwave nekumanikidzwa kwakanyanya kumaruwa, vanhu vazhinji vakasiya mapurazi avo ndokuenda kumaguta makuru seAleppo neDhamasiko. Vabviswa munyika yavo, batano nemhuri nevavakidzani, zvino ivo “havana kusungirirwa uye vapererwa”—sokudanwa kunoita mumwe munyori weIndia, Pankaj Mishra. Saka vari kuyedza kuita nzira yavo mumaguta vachiita zvisingaite, chero chavanogona kuwana. Iri idambudziko guru muIndia zvakare, uko chikamu chimwe muzvina chemiriyoni chakazviuraya nekuda kwezvikwereti zvisingakundike. Vanotora zvikwereti nemitengo inorambidza zvakanyanya, havagone kudzosera, uye vanozviuraya.
Munguva yeOccupy Movement, sirogani "Isu tiri 99 muzana, ivo 1 muzana," inobata chokwadi. Hazvisi kure zvakadaro. Chikonzero icho Occupy Movement yaive neimwe traction munyika ino, imhaka yekuti vanhu anogona maona. Haudi Ph.D. mune zvehupfumi kuona mubhadharo wako usingawedzere kwemakore mashanu kusvika matanhatu, mitengo yezvokudya ichikwira. Uchabhadhara sei dzidzo yevana vako? Uchavaendesa sei kukoreji?
KM—Mafambiro aya aitapuriranwa nekuti aiyeuchidza vakadzvinyirirwa nezvesimba ravo rekubatana. Ukuwo, “chikamu chimwe muzana” chinoratidzika kuva chakafuratira nhau inokosha: kuti vanofanira kuramba vachikanda zvimedu kune avo vari kudzvinyirira.
DB—Zvakakosha kuti macapitalist vachengete vanhu vavari kushungurudza vari vapenyu. Zvikasadaro ndiani achatenga zvigadzirwa zvavo? Iwe haugone kuuraya murwere; anofanira kuchengetwa ari mupenyu kuti arambe achibhadhara zvikwereti zvake. Iyi shanduko ikozvino mukutanga-21st zana remakore capitalism rave rakanyanya uye munhoroondo pasina kufanana. MuUS, makumi emamiriyoni evanhu vakarasikirwa nedzimba dzavo, havana mabasa, kana kuti vakatora mabasa enguva pfupi kuti vawane chouviri. Uyewo, Greece neSpain zvino dzine 25 muzana yourovha! Capitalism iri munjodzi.
Zvose izvo zvinhu zvinoputika, uye pfarivari inotungidza kutsamwa. Dzimwe dzehasha dzinogona kupindirana uye dzakanangana, mamwe marudzi ehasha anogona kunge asina kubatana, saka panogona kuva nemhirizhonga, rusaruraganda, masekete, uye makwikwi emarudzi. Zvakakosha kuti tirambe takatarisana nekuedza kuunza shanduko yemagariro. Unogona here kuva nesocial democratic revolution isina mhirizhonga? Wese munhu anofarira kunongedza kuna Gandhi kuIndia, Mandela kuSouth Africa, kana Martin Luther King kuUS Asi vanoti hazvibvumidze mukana wekupokana pasina mhirizhonga vanopa mhirizhonga, uye ndizvo zvakaitwa naMubarak naAssad. Vari kupa mhirizhonga nekuti nyika ine masimba emhirizhonga, kana kuti ine moto wakawanda. Ndinofunga kuti kusaita mhirizhonga uye kusateerera kwevanhu kunovhundutsa vatungamiri. Ivo chido kutarisana nechisimba, nokuti ndiko kwavane mukana wakasiyana. MuTaksim Square, semuenzaniso, nzira dzekugadzira uye dzehunyanzvi dzekuratidzira dzakaisa nyika parumananzombe.
Chii chakakosha pamusoro pekuratidzira muTurkey ndechekuti yakaputsa pfungwa yekutya uye kutyisidzira kuti vanhu vaisafanira kutaura zvinopesana naErdogan. Anoonekwa nevakawanda seanozvikudza uye anozvitonga. Vanhu vayambuka chikumbaridzo chekutya; havachatyi hurumende. Pane nguva ine simba mufirimu raMichael Moore "Sicko." Ari kutaura neboka revaAmerica muParis, uye vari kumutsanangurira zvandinoona sechokwadi chakadzama: MuFrance hurumende inotya vanhu, uye muAmerica, vanhu vanotya hurumende. Izvi ndezvechokwadiwo muTurkey nekuda kwezvikonzero zvekare - kudzvinyirirwa kwemukati, hudzvanyiriri hwemauto, uye hutongi hwejekerere umo vanhu vazhinji munyika vanorambidzwa uye havasi vagari vakazara.
Tichaona dzimwe dzinonzi dzakagadzikana hurumende dziri munjodzi dzichiparara. Kunyangwe mukati meEU, hazvina kujeka zvichaitika muGreece, Spain, Portugal, kana Italy. Idzi inguva dzeshanduko, uye kana paine munhu akakuudza kuti anoziva mafambiro achaita zvinhu, usavatenda. Munguva yekushanduka-shanduka uye kusagadzikana kukuru kwepasi, isu tingangoona kusagadzikana kukuru.
KM-Ngatitaurei nezve Occupy Movement, zvayakaita, uye nei yakarasa simba.
DB-Occupy Wall Street yakapinza muhurukuro yezvematongerwo enyika pfungwa yekusaenzana: iyo 1 muzana maringe ne99 muzana, pfungwa yekuti pane chimwe chinhu chakatsveyama muhupfumi hweUS. Hapana akanga akazvitarisira pazvakatanga muNew York musi waSept. 17, 2011. Magazini yeCanada, Adbusters, vakapa zano. Uye nenguva isipi yakamera: Ndakashanyira misasa yeOccupy muBellingham, Seattle, Tacoma, Boulder, Denver, Santa Fe, nedzimwe nzvimbo. Yaibvongodza kwete ichibva mukati chete; pakanga paine mhirizhonga yenyika yakaparadza mizhinji yemisasa iyi, yakatyisidzira kusungwa. Muchirimo cha2012, yakanga yaparara zvakanyanya. Zita rakanga richiripo, asi simba raiita serakapera. Hazvina kujeka kuti sei zvakaitika. Zvimwe chikamu chacho ndechokuti vanhu vanofanira kuenderera mberi noupenyu hwavo. Iwe haugone kutora mwedzi mitatu kana mina yekuzorora uye kusaburitsa chero mari yemhando kana uri kutsigira mhuri. Senzira yakabudirira asi zvaisaita kutarisira kuti vanhu vaizopedza mwedzi vachigara mumatende.
Ko Occupy ichadzoka here? Zvakaoma kutaura. Ichatora maumbirwo matsva nemafomu. Vakaita munzvimbo yeNew York pashure peSuper Storm Sandy, vachibatsira vakwegura mumafurati muBrooklyn neQueens, vachiendesa zvinhu kune vaya vakanga vasina magetsi. Saka vakaita basa rakakosha randaifunga kuti rakabvumwa zvakakwana munhau. Asi isu do vanoda kupikiswa munyika muno. Uye hazvisi kuzobva kuRepublican Party kana Democratic Party. Iwo ari ruoko-mu-girovhosi chikamu chekugadzwa uye chikamu chematambudziko ehurongwa hweUS Tinoda simba kubva kunze kwemapato aya ari kusundira envelopu kuenda kune humwe hutongi hwehupfumi-pfungwa yakakosha inopinzwa muhurukuro neOccupy. Vanobva kune dzimwe nyika kana vanhu vane ruvara vari kushanda kwemaawa makumi mana kusvika makumi mashanu uye vanobhadharwa chero chinhu. Ndakaita hurukuro nemumwe mukadzi nezvevashandi vanorarama nemazano. Mubairo weawa yemushandi anogara pamazano i$40. Hazvina kuwedzera kubva muna 50. Kusaenzana uku kuri kuda kugadziriswa nekukurumidza.
KM-Isu tiripowo here nekuti nhepfenyuro dzemazuvano-muno nekumwe-hadzigadzirise zvikonzero?
DB-Kana kuongororwa kwako kusiri chokwadi, zvese zvauri kutaura zvinokundikana. Uye zvamazvirokwazvo basa renhepfenyuro uye, kuchikamu chikuru, dzidzo, kutsausa pfungwa kubva kune zvikonzero. Ngatitaurei nezve Wall Street financier Bernie Madoff. Akanyenga mbuya, akaba mari yepenjeni, akanga ari murume anotyisa, anotyisa uye tese tinonzwa takanaka pakumushora. Pane manyepo ekuchinja kwetsika nemagariro aya: Tinoda kuongororwa uye kudzorwa kwevanhu ava kuitira kuti vasaite zvinhu zvakaipa izvi. Hapana anotarisa dhiramu rinobudisa maapuro aya. Maapuro akaora anobva acheneswa kubva mudhiramu, dhiramu racho rinoramba rakasimba, uye kutenderera kunoenderera mberi. Vanhu vakanganwa mhirizhonga yebhangi yekupera kwe80s uye Enron nedzimwe njodzi dzemakambani ekutanga kwe2000s.
KM—Taura nezvezvinokonzeresa kukara pane zvakatipoteredza. Havasi vanhu chete vari kupanduka; nyika pachayo iri mukumukira.
DB-Icho ichokwadi chaicho. Nyika pachayo iri kurwiswa kubva kurudzi urwu rwehudzvinyiriri, huri kutora zviwanikwa zvese, kwete zviwanikwa zvinogoneka. Iri muDNA ye capitalism-haigone kuzvimisa pachayo, nekuda kwekutyaira kwayo kuita purofiti. Hatigone kunyepedzera nezve mutsa, munyoro capitalism, kana yakadzokororwa, eco-capitalism. Nyika iri kubuda ropa. Muna 1992, masayendisiti 1,700 akapa yambiro kuvanhu pamusoro pekudziya kwepasi uye remangwana repasi. Chii chakaitika kubva ipapo? Kwave nemusangano mushure memusangano: Durbin, Rio, Copenhagen, Doha… Chavanoita chete kuungana, kunwa Chardonnay yavo, uye vopa zviziviso zvinoshamisa: Tese takasvibira, tose tiri vezvakatipoteredza. Zvadaro ibasa semazuva ose.
Une stress iya manje kumba kwedu. Nyika ndiyo musha wedu, uye hatisi vatarisiri vakanaka uye vatariri. Mumaguta akadai seCairo, Delhi, Calcutta, Dhaka, uye Karachi, mwero wokusvibiswa haudaviriki. Tinoda shanduko huru. Uye isu tinofanirwa kufunga zvakare izvo zvatinonzwisisa nehutongi, nekuti dambudziko rezvakatipoteredza rinogona kugadziriswa pamwe chete. Munharaunda duku yeHimalaya yeBhutan, ivo vane indekisi yekufara kwevanhu, vari kuenda kwose kwakasvibira, kubvisa plastiki, nezvimwewo. Asi iyi inyika duku ine vanhu 700,000. Hazvisi kuzogadzirisa dambudziko rakakura. Zvinofanira kuitwa pasi rose.
Chinonyanya kukosha, mvura iri kupera. Ichava nyaya huru ye21st zana remakore. Kubva kare kwaive nehondo pamusoro pesirivha kana goridhe, mafuta munguva ino. Mvura ichange iri nyaya huru mumakore anotevera. Kana iwe ukatarisa pamepu dzeWest Asia, South Asia, dzakanyanya kudzvinyirirwa nemvura. Chikamu chekugara kweIsrael kwave kutora mvura kubva muPalestine aquifer. Ndipo pakavakwa makoroni paWest Bank—panzvimbo dzinochengeterwa mvura dzenzvimbo iyoyo.
KM-Wave uchiita zvekuratidzira uye mamwe midhiya kwenguva yakareba. Chii chinoita kuti urambe uchienderera mberi?
DB—Ndinoda kutora mashoko omunyori mukuru wokuUruguay Eduardo Galeano, uyo akati, “Ngatichengetedzei kusava netariro nokuda kwenguva dziri nani.” Vanhu vazhinji nhasi vanoshora. Zvinonzwisisika zvakadaro. Ingotarisa uone zviri kuitika. Asi cynicism haifanire kutungamira mukusava nehanya. Unofanira kuva proactive. Uye ndicho chimwe chezvikonzero zvakaita kuti nditange Alternative Radio serudzi rweserum kurwisa huturu hunogadzirwa nevezvenhau vemakambani. Asi ndinowana simba rakawanda kubva kuvanhu vasina ropafadzo kupfuura ini. Ndakanga ndichangobva kuManitoba uye kune sangano rinoshingaira rezvizvarwa zvemo—rakaumbwa nevanhu vasina ropafadzo kana zvakanakira izvo mumwe munhu akaita seni angave nazvo, asi vari kuronga uye kuita basa rinokosha. Kune mienzaniso yezvipokisi zvinosimudzira pasirese zvinondikurudzira, uye zvinonyanya kunakidza kushambira uchipesana nezvino. Paunenge uchituhwina uchipesana nezvino uno, hausi kungovaka simba, kusimba, uye hunhu, asi uri kusangana nevanhu vanofarira chaizvo. Vanhu vari kupa dzimwe nzira.
Shamwari yangu Arundhati Roy anoti "mutoro" ishoko rinofinha. Asi ndinonzwa ndine mutoro nemhaka yekwakabva mhuri yangu yechiArmenia, nokuda kwezvakanaka nemikana yandakawana. Ndinofunga kuti zvakanaka kusiya nyika iri nani pane zvawaiwana.
Khatchig Mouradian ndiye mupepeti we "The Armenian Weekly" uye mumiriri wePhD muGenocide Studies paClark University. Anogona kusvikwa pa [email inodzivirirwa].
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