ZNetwork inopihwa mari chete kuburikidza nerupo rwevaverengi vayo.
dhonetaโNhoroondo inoratidza kuti pese apo vanhu vanga vachirarama nehudzvanyiriri.
vanhu vangapandukira izvozvo."
Howard Zinn, makumi masere nemashanu, ndiPurofesa Emeritus wesainzi yezvematongerwo enyika paBoston University. Akaberekerwa muBrooklyn, NY, muna 85 kumhuri ine urombo yakatamira kune imwe nyika. Akaziva pakutanga muhuduku hwake kuti vimbiso ye "American Dream", iyo ichazadzikwa kune vose vanoshanda nesimba uye vanoshingaira, inongova vimbiso uye hope.Mukati meHondo Yenyika II akabatana neUnited Air Force uye akashumira. se bombardier mu "European Theatre". Ichi chakabvumikisa kuva chinoitika chinoumba icho chakangosimbisa zvibvumikiso zvake zvokuti hakuna chinhu chakadai sehondo yakarurama. Yakaratidzawo, zvakare, chiso chaicho chehutano hwemagariro evanhu, apo kutambura uye kuzvipira kwevanhuwo zvavo kunogara kuchishandiswa chete kusimudzira purofiti yevashoma vane rombo. Kunyange zvazvo akapedza makore ake ehuduku achibatsira vabereki vake kutsigira mhuri nokushanda munzvimbo dzezvikepe, akatanga nezvidzidzo paColumbia University pashure peWWII, kwaakabudirira kudzivirira dhipatimendi rake rechiremba muna 1922. Gare gare akagadzwa kuva sachigaro wedhipatimendi renhoroondo. uye sainzi yezvemagariro evanhu paSpelman College, koreji yevakadzi vatema muAtlanta, GA, kwaakapinda nesimba muCivil Rights Movement. Kubva pakutanga kweHondo yeVietnam aive achishanda mukati meboka rekurwisa hondo, uye mumakore akatevera akangowedzera kubatanidzwa kwake mukufamba achishuvira kuenda kune imwe, nyika iri nani. Zinn ndiye munyori wemabhuku anopfuura makumi maviri, kusanganisira Nhoroondo Yevanhu veUnited States ndiko "nhoroondo inoshamisa uye inofamba yevanhu veAmerica kubva pakuona kweavo vakashandiswa mune zvematongerwo enyika nehupfumi uye dambudziko ravo rakasiiwa kubva munhoroondo dzakawanda ..." (Library Journal) Bhuku rake richangoburwa rine musoro Simba Hurumende Hadzigoni Kudzvinyirira, uye muunganidzwa unonakidza wezvinyorwa zvakanyorwa naZinn mumakore mashoma apfuura. Anodikamwa munyori wenhoroondo dzekare achiri kudzidzisa mhiri kweUS nepasirese, uye ari, nekutora chikamu nesimba uye nerutsigiro rwemafambiro akasiyana anofambira mberi munharaunda achienderera mberi nekurwira nzanga yemahara.
Ziga Vodovnik ndiye Mubatsiri Purofesa wePolitical Science paFaculty of Social Sciences, University of Ljubljana, uko kudzidzisa kwake nekutsvakurudza kwakanangana neanarchist theory/praxis uye magariro evanhu muAmerica. Bhuku rake idzva Anarchy yeHupenyu hweMazuva ese - Manotsi pane anarchism uye ayo Akakanganwa Confluences ichaburitswa mukupera kwa2008.
Ziga Vodovnik:Kubva kuma1980 zvichienda mberi tiri kuona hurongwa hwekudyidzana kwehupfumi hwenyika huchisimba zuva nezuva. Vazhinji vari Kuruboshwe vava kubatwa pakati pe "dambudziko" - kungave kushanda kusimbisa hutongi hwenyika-nyika sechidziviriro chinodzivirira kurwisa kutonga kwemari yekunze neyepasirese; kana kuedza kune imwe nzira isiri yenyika kune nzira iripo yekudyidzana kwepasi rose uye iyo yakaenzana pasi rose. Unofungei pamusoro peizvi?
Howard Zinn: Ini ndiri anarchist, uye maererano nenheyo dzeanarchist nyika inova zvipingamupinyi kune chokwadi chekudyidzana kwepasi rose. Mune imwe pfungwa, kufamba kwekudyidzana kwepasirese uko macapitalist ari kuyedza kusvetukira pamusoro pezvipingamupinyi zvehurumende yenyika, anogadzira mukana wekufamba kusafuratira zvipingamupinyi zvenyika, uye kuunza vanhu pamwechete pasi rose, mumiganhu yenyika vachipokana nekudyidzana kwepasirese kwemari, kugadzira. kudyidzana kwepasi rose kwevanhu, kunopesana nemafungiro echinyakare ekudyidzana kwenyika. Mune mamwe mazwi kushandisa kudyidzana kwepasirese - hapana chakaipa nepfungwa yekudyidzana kwepasirese - nenzira inodarika miganhu yenyika uye chokwadi kuti hazvibatanidzi kutonga kwekambani kwesarudzo dzehupfumi dzinoitwa pamusoro pevanhu pasi rese.
ZV: Pierre-Joseph Proudhon akambonyora kuti: "Rusununguko ndimai kwete mwana wehurongwa." Unoona kupi hupenyu mushure kana kupfuura (nyika) nyika?
HZ: Kupfuura nyika yenyika? (kuseka) Ndinofunga zviri kunze kwenyika inyika isina miganhu yenyika, asiwo nevanhu vakarongeka. Asi kwete kurongeka semarudzi, asi vanhu vakarongwa seboka, boka, vasina rudzi uye rudzi rupi norupi rwemiganhu. Pasina chero mhando yemiganhu, mapasipoti, visa. Hapana izvozvo! Yezviunganidzwa zvehukuru hwakasiyana, zvichienderana nebasa remubatanidzwa, kuve nekusangana kune mumwe nemumwe. Iwe haugone kuve nekuzvimiririra madiki akaunganidzwa, nekuti aya akaunganidzwa ane akasiyana zviwanikwa anowanikwa kwavari. Ichi chimwe chinhu dzidziso yeanarchist isati yashanda uye pamwe haigone kugadzirira pachine nguva, nekuti yaizofanira kuzvigadzira pachayo mukuita.
ZV: Iwe unofunga here kuti shanduko inogona kuwanikwa kuburikidza nemasangano ezvematongerwo enyika, kana chete neimwe nzira - nekusateerera, kuvaka marongero akafanana, kumisa imwe nhepfenyuro, nezvimwe.
HZ: Kana ukashanda kuburikidza nezvivakwa zviripo unenge washatiswa. Nokushanda kuburikidza nehurongwa hwezvematongerwo enyika hunosvibisa mhepo, kunyange masangano anofambira mberi, unogona kuzviona kunyange ikozvino muU. mumiriri webato kana kuti mumiriri webato rechitatu. Iyi imhando yehumbowo hunoratidza kuti kana wapinda mukushanda kuburikidza nesarudzo dzezvematongerwo enyika unotanga kushatisa zvaunofunga. Saka ndinofunga nzira yekuzvibata ndeyekufunga kwete maererano nehurumende inomiririra, kwete maererano nekuvhota, kwete maererano nezvematongerwe enyika esarudzo, asi kufunga maererano nekuronga masangano evanhu, kuronga munzvimbo yebasa, kuronga munharaunda, kuronga mapoka anogona kuva akasimba zvakakwana kuti pakupedzisira atore - kutanga kuva akasimba zvakakwana kuti arambe izvo zvaitwa kwavari nechiremera, uye chechipiri, gare gare, kuti ave akasimba zvakakwana kuti atore masangano.
ZV: Mubvunzo umwe wega. Unoenda kunovhota here? Unovhota here?
HZ: Ndino. Dzimwe nguva, kwete nguva dzose. Zvinoenderana. Asi ini ndinotenda kuti zviri nani dzimwe nguva kuve nemumwe mumiriri pane mumwe mumiriri, iwe uchinzwisisa kuti haisiriyo mhinduro. Dzimwe nguva huipi hudiki hauna kuderera, saka iwe unoda kufuratira izvozvo, uye iwe hauvhote kana kuvhotera bato rechitatu sekuratidzira kupokana nehurongwa hwebato. Dzimwe nguva mutsauko uripo pakati pevamiriri vaviri chinhu chakakosha mupfungwa, uyezve ndinotenda kuedza kupinza mumwe munhu pachigaro, ari nani zvishoma, asina njodzi, zvinonzwisisika. Asi usakanganwa kuti zvisinei kuti ndiani anopinda pachigaro, mubvunzo unokosha hausi kuti ndiani ari muhofisi, asi rudzii rwemagariro evanhu auinawo. Nekuti takaona munhoroondo kuti kana uine simba rekugarisana nevamwe, hazvina basa kuti ndiani ari pachigaro. Ani zvake ari muhofisi, anogona kunge ari Republican kana Democrat, kana iwe uine simba remagariro ekufambisa, munhu ari muhofisi anozofanira kuzvipira, achafanirwa kuremekedza neimwe nzira simba remafambisirwo emagariro.
Izvi takazviona kuma1960. Richard Nixon akanga asiri iye akaipa, aiva akaipa zvikuru, asi mukutonga kwake hondo yakazoguma, nokuti aifanira kutarisana nesimba rekurwisana nehondo pamwe chete nesimba remusangano weVietnamese. . Ini ndichavhota, asi nguva dzose nekuchenjerera kuti kuvhota hakuna kukosha, uye kuronga ndicho chinhu chakakosha.
Vamwe vaiti kana vandibvunza nezvekuvhota vanonditi unomutsigira here mumiriri uyu kana uyo? Ndinoti: 'Ndichatsigira mumiriri uyu kweminiti imwe chete kuti ndiri munzvimbo yekuvhota. Panguva iyoyo ini ndichatsigira A ne B, asi ndisati ndaenda kunzvimbo yekuvhotera, uye kana ndabva munzvimbo yekuvhotera, ndichaisa pfungwa dzangu pakuronga vanhu uye kwete kuronga mushandirapamwe wesarudzo.'
ZV: Anarchism mune izvi inopesana nedemocracy inomiririra sezvo ichiri chimiro chehudzvanyiriri - hudzvanyiriri hweruzhinji. Vanopikisa pfungwa yokuvhota kwevoruzhinji, vachiti maonero evoruzhinji haawanzopindirani neakarurama mutsika. Thoreau akambonyora kuti isu tine chisungo chekuita zvinoenderana nezvinorairwa nehana yedu, kunyangwe iyo yekupedzisira inopesana nemafungiro evazhinji kana mitemo yenharaunda. Unobvumirana nazvo here?
HZ: Zvamazvirokwazvo. Rousseau akamboti, kana ndiri chikamu cheboka revanhu zana, vanhu makumi mapfumbamwe nevapfumbamwe vane kodzero yekunditongera rufu, nekuti ivo vazhinji? Kwete, ruzhinji runogona kukanganisa, ruzhinji runogona kukunda kodzero dzevadiki. Dai ruzhinji rwaitonga, tingadai tichiri kuva neuranda. 100% yevanhu vakamboita nhapwa 99% yevanhu. Kunyange zvichiitwa neruzhinji mutemo zvakanaka. Aya ndiwo mafungiro asina kunaka ekuti democracy chii. Hutongi hwejekerere hunofanirwa kutarisisa zvinhu zvakati wandei - kuenzana kwezvinodiwa nevanhu, kwete zvido zveruzhinji chete, asiwo zvido zvevashoma. Uye zvakare inofanirwa kurangarira kuti ruzhinji, kunyanya munharaunda umo vezvenhau vanoshandura maonero eruzhinji, vanogona kunge vasina kururama uye vakaipa. Saka hongu, vanhu vanofanirwa kuita zvinoenderana nehana kwete nevhoti yeruzhinji.
ZV: Unoonepi kwaunoona kwakabva nhoroondo yeanarchism muUnited States?
HZ: Rimwe rematambudziko ekubata neanarchism nderekuti kune vanhu vazhinji vane pfungwa dzeanarchist, asi vasingadi kuti ivo vanarchist. Iro izwi rakatanga kushandiswa naProudhon pakati pezana ramakore rechi 19, asi pachokwadi pakanga paine pfungwa dzeanarchist dzakaenderera mberi neProudhon, idzo dziri muEurope uye zvakare muUnited States. Semuyenzaniso, kune dzimwe pfungwa dzaThomas Paine, uyo akanga asiri mutongi gava, uyo aisazozviti ari anarchist, asi ainyumwira hurumende. Uyewo Henry David Thoreau. Haazive izwi rekuti anarchism, uye haashandise izwi rekuti anarchism, asi pfungwa dzaThoreau dziri pedyo zvakanyanya neanarchism. Anovenga zvikuru marudzi ose ehurumende. Kana tikatsvaga kwakabva anarchism muUnited States, saka pamwe Thoreau ndiye ari padyo iwe waunokwanisa kusvika kune wekutanga American anarchist. Iwe haunyatsosangana neanarchism kusvika mushure meHondo yeVanhu, kana iwe uine maEuropean anarchists, kunyanya maGerman anarchist, achiuya kuUnited States. Vanototanga kuronga. Kekutanga kuti anarchism ine simba rakarongeka uye inozivikanwa pachena muUnited States iri muChicago panguva yeHaymarket Affair.
ZV: Iwe unoona kupi kurudziro huru yemazuva ano anarchism muUnited States? Ndeapi maonero ako pamusoro peTranscendentalism - kureva, Henry D. Thoreau, Ralph W. Emerson, Walt Whitman, Margaret Fuller, et al. - sekurudziro mune iyi maonero?
HZ: Zvakanaka, iyo Transcendentalism, isu tingati, nzira yekutanga yeanarchism. VeTranscendentalists havanawo kuzvidaidza kuti vanarchist, asi kune pfungwa dzeanarchist mukufunga kwavo uye mumabhuku avo. Nenzira dzakawanda Herman Melville anoratidza mamwe eaya mazano eanarchist. Vese vainyumwira chiremera. Tinogona kutaura kuti Transcendentalism yakaita basa mukugadzira mamiriro ekusava nechokwadi kune chiremera, kuhurumende.
Sezvineiwo, nhasi hapana chaiyo yakarongeka anarchist movement muUnited States. Kune akawanda akakosha mapoka kana mapoka anozviti anarchist, asi ari madiki. Ndinorangarira kuti muna 1960s pakanga paine boka revanarchist pano muBoston raive nevanhu gumi nevashanu (sic!), asi vakabva vaparadzana. Asi muna 1960 pfungwa yeanarchism yakava yakakosha zvikuru maererano nekufamba kwema1960.
ZV: Mazhinji esimba rekugadzira rezvematongerwo enyika rakasimba mazuva ano ari kubva kune anarchism, asi vashoma chete vevanhu vanobatanidzwa mumusangano vanozviti "anarchists". Unoonepi chikonzero chikuru cheizvi? Varatidziri vanonyara here kuzvizivisa ivo pachavo netsika yehungwaru iyi, kana kuti ivo vechokwadi kukuzvipira kuti kusunungurwa chaiko kunoda kusunungurwa kubva kune chero zita?
HZ: Izwi rokuti anarchism rave rakabatana nezviitiko zviviri izvo anarchist chaiye asingadi kuzvibatanidza nazvo. Imwe mhirizhonga, uye imwe nyonganyonga kana nyonganyonga. Iyo yakakurumbira pfungwa yeanarchism iri kune rumwe rutivi bhomba-kukanda uye ugandanga, uye kune rumwe rutivi hapana mitemo, hapana mitemo, hapana chirango, munhu wose anoita zvaanoda, kuvhiringidzika, etc. Ndokusaka pane kusada kushandisa iyo izwi anarchism. Asi chaizvoizvo pfungwa dzeanarchism dzakabatanidzwa munzira iyo mafambiro e1960 akatanga kufunga.
Ini ndinofunga kuti pamwe kuratidzwa kwakanyanya kweiyo yaive mubato rekodzero dzevanhu ne Komiti Yokuronganisa Yevadzidzi โ SNCC. SNCC isingazive nezve anarchism sehuzivi hune hunhu hweanarchism. Vakanga vari decentralized. Mamwe masangano anorwira kodzero dzevanhu, semuenzaniso Seven Christian Leadership Conference, aive masangano ari pakati aine mutungamiri - Martin Luther King. National Association for the Development of People Color (NAACP) yaive muNew York, uye zvakare yaive neimwe mhando yesangano repakati. SNCC, kune rumwe rutivi, yakave yakasununguka zvachose. Yakanga ine vavaidana kuti vanyori vomumunda, avo vaishanda mumataundi maduku muMaodzanyemba mose, nokuzvitonga kukuru. Vaiva nehofisi muAtlanta, Georgia, asi hofisi yacho yakanga isiri chiremera chakasimba chepakati. Vanhu vakanga vachishanda mumunda - muAlabama, Georgia, Louisiana, uye Mississippi - vakanga vari voga zvikuru. Vaishanda pamwe chete nevanhu veko, nevanhu vepasi. Uye saka hapana mutungamiri mumwe weSNCC, uyezve kufungidzira kukuru kwehurumende, nekuda kweruzivo rweSNCC. Ivo vaisagona kutsamira pahurumende kuti ivabetsere, kuvatsigira, kunyange zvazvo hurumende yenguva yacho, mukuvamba kwama1960, yairangarirwa kuva inofambira mberi, yakasununguka. John F. Kennedy kunyanya. Asi vakatarisa John F. Kennedy, vakaona maitiro aaiita. John F. Kennedy akanga asiri kutsigira sangano reMaodzanyemba rekodzero dzakaenzana kuvanhu Vatema. Akanga achigadza vatongi veSegregationists kuMaodzanyemba, akanga achibvumira maodzanyemba segregationists kuita chipi nechipi chavaida kuita. Saka SNCC yakaitwa decentralized, yaipokana nehurumende, isina hutungamiriri, asi vaive vasina chiono chesangano remangwana semaanarchists. Vakanga vasingafungi kwenguva refu, vakanga vasiri kubvunza kuti tichava nenzanga yakaita sei mune ramangwana. Ivo vakanga vakanangidzirwa chaizvoizvo pachinetso chapakarepo chokusarura madzinza. Asi maitiro avo, mashandiro avakaita, marongerwo avaiita, zvaienderana, ungati, mitsetse yeanarchist.
ZV: Iwe unoona here kuti pejorative (mis) kushandiswa kwezwi rekuti anarchism imhedzisiro yakananga yekuti pfungwa dzekuti vanhu vanogona kusununguka, dzaityisa uye dzinotyisa kune avo vane masimba?
HZ: Hapana fungidziro! Hapana mubvunzo kuti pfungwa dzeanarchist dzinotyisa kune avo vane simba. Vanhu vane masimba vanogona kushivirira pfungwa dzakasununguka. Vanogona kushivirira pfungwa dzinoda kuchinjwa, asi havagoni kushivirira pfungwa yokuti hapazovi nehurumende, pasina chiremera chikuru. Saka zvakakosha kuti vaseke pfungwa yeanarchism kuti vagadzire iyi fungidziro yeanarchism sechisimba uye mhirizhonga. Inobatsira kwavari, hongu.
ZV: Muchidzidzo chezvematongerwo enyika sainzi tinogona kuona nekuongorora pfungwa mbiri huru dzeanarchism - inonzi collectivist anarchism inogumira kuEurope, uye kune rumwe rutivi anarchism yega yega inongogumira kuUS. Unobvumirana here nekuparadzaniswa kwekuongorora uku?
HZ: Kwandiri uku ndiko kuparadzana kwakagadzirwa. Sezvinowanzoitika vaongorori vanogona kuita kuti zvinhu zvive nyore kwavari, sekugadzira zvikamu uye kuenderana nekufamba muzvikamu, asi handifunge kuti unogona kuzviita. Kuno kuUnited States, chokwadi kwave kune vanhu vaitenda mune yega anarchism, asi muUnited States zvakare vakarongwa vanarchist veChicago muna 1880s kana SNCC. Ndinofungidzira mune zvese zviitiko, muEurope uye muUnited States, unowana zvese zvinoratidzwa, kunze kwekuti pamwe muEurope pfungwa yeanarcho-syndicalism inova yakasimba muEurope kupfuura muUS. Uchiri kuUS iwe une IWW, inova sangano reanarcho-sindicalist uye zvechokwadi risingaenderane neanomiririra anarchism.
ZV: Unofungei nezve "dambudziko" renzira - shanduko maringe nekushanduka kwemagariro netsika?
HZ: Ndinofunga pano pane mibvunzo yakawanda yakasiyana. Imwe yacho inyaya yemhirizhonga, uye ndinofunga pano vanarchist havana kubvumirana. Kuno kuUS unowana kusawirirana, uye unogona kuwana kusawirirana uku mukati memunhu mumwe chete. Emma Goldman, ungati akaunza anarchism, mushure mekunge afa, kumberi muUS muma1960, paakangoerekana ava munhu akakosha. Asi Emma Goldman aifarira kuurayiwa kwaHenry Clay Frick, asi akazofunga kuti iyi haisi iyo nzira. Shamwari yake uye shamwari, Alexander Berkman, haana kurega zvachose pfungwa yechisimba. Nekune rimwe divi, une vanhu vaive neanarchistic nenzira saTolstoy naGandhi, vaitenda mukusaita mhirizhonga.
Pane imwe yepakati hunhu hweanarchism panhau yenzira, uye iyo musimboti musimboti wekuita zvakananga - yekusapfuura nemafomu ayo nzanga inokupa iwe, yehurumende inomiririra, yekuvhota, yemutemo, asi zvakananga kutora simba. . Kana iri mibatanidzwa yevashandi, kana iri anarcho-syndicalism, zvinoreva kuti vashandi vari kuramwa mabasa, uye kwete izvozvo chete, asi chaizvo kubata maindasitiri avanoshanda nawo nekuatungamirira. Chii chinonzi chiito chakananga? KuMaodzanyemba apo vanhu vatema vaironga kurwisana nerusaruraganda, havana kumirira kuti hurumende ivape chiratidzo, kana kuti vapinde mumatare edzimhosva, kuti vamhanโare, vomirira kongiresi kuti ipasise mutemo. Vakaita chiito chakananga; vakapinda mumaresitorendi, vakagara pasi ipapo uye vakaramba kupfakanyika. Vakakwira mabhazi iwaya ndokuita mamiriro ezvinhu ekuti vaida kuvapo.
Chokwadika, kurova nguva dzose inzira yechiito chakananga. Nekuramwa mabasa, zvakare, hausi kukumbira hurumende kuti ikuitire nyore zvinhu kuburikidza nekudzika mitemo, iwe uri kutora matanho zvakananga kune mushandirwi. Ini ndingati, sekureva kunoita nzira, iyo pfungwa yekuita zvakananga kune huipi hwaunoda kukunda imhando yedhinominator yakajairika yeanarchist pfungwa, anarchist mafambiro. Ndichiri kufunga imwe yemisimboti yakakosha yeanarchism ndeyekuti haugone kuparadzanisa nzira nemagumo. Uye ndiko kuti, kana magumo ako ari egalitarian society unofanira kushandisa egalitarian nzira, kana magumo ako asiri echisimba nzanga pasina hondo, haugone kushandisa hondo kuzadzisa magumo ako. Ini ndinofunga anarchism inoda nzira uye inopera kuti ienderane. Ndinofunga kuti ichi ndicho chimwe chezvinhu zvinosiyanisa zveanarchism.
ZV: Pane imwe nguva Noam Chomsky akabvunzwa nezve chiono chake chevanhu veanarchist uye nezve hurongwa hwake hwakadzama hwekusvika ikoko. Akapindura kudaro "hatigone kuona kuti matambudziko api achamuka kunze kwekunge waedza nawo." Iwe unewo here kunzwa kuti vazhinji vasara vakangwara vari kurasikirwa nesimba rakawandisa nemakakatanwa avo edzidziso nezve nzira dzakakodzera uye magumo, kutotanga "kuyedza" mukuita?
HZ: Ini ndinofunga zvakakodzera kupa mazano, sezvakaitwa naMichael Albert Parecon semuenzaniso, kunyangwe ukaramba uchichinjika. Hatigone kugadzira purani yeramangwana nzanga ikozvino, asi ndinofunga zvakanaka kufunga nezvazvo. Ndinofunga kuti zvakanaka kuva nechinangwa. Zvinovaka, zvinobatsira, zvine hutano, kufunga kuti nzanga yeramangwana ingave yakaita sei, nekuti zvino inokutungamirira pane zvauri kuita nhasi, asi chero bedzi nhaurirano idzi pamusoro penzanga yeramangwana dzisave zvipingamupinyi kune kushanda takananga kunzanga yeramangwana iri. Zvikasadaro iwe unogona kupedza uchikurukura nezve mukana wekuti utopian uchipesana neiyo utopian mukana, uye nepakati nguva hausi kuita nenzira inokuswededza pedyo nazvo.
ZV: Mamuri Nhoroondo Yevanhu veUnited States iwe unotiratidza kuti rusununguko rwedu, kodzero, mitemo yezvakatipoteredza, nezvimwewo, hazvina kumbopiwa kwatiri kubva kune vashoma vapfumi uye vane simba, asi zvakagara zvichirwiwa nevanhuwo zvavo - nekusateerera kwevanhu. Chii chinofanira kuva muna ikoku nhanho dzedu dzokutanga dzokuenda kune imwe nyika, iri nani?
HZ: Ndinofunga kuti danho redu rokutanga nderokuzvironga uye kupikisa kurongeka kuripo - kurwisana nehondo, kurwisana nehupfumi uye zvepabonde, kurwisana nerusarura, nezvimwewo. nzira yekugadzira rudzi rwehukama hwevanhu hunofanira kuvapo munharaunda yeramangwana. Izvi zvinoreva kuzvironga pachedu tisina chiremera chepakati, pasina mutungamiri ane mutsa, nenzira inomiririra mudiki chimiro chenguva yemberi yakaenzana. Zvekuti nyangwe ukasahwina kumwe kutunda mangwana kana gore rinouya panguva ino wagadzira muenzaniso. Iwe wakaita kuti nzanga yeramangwana inofanira kuve yakaita sei uye iwe wakagadzira kugutsikana nekukasira, kunyangwe usina kuwana chinangwa chako chekupedzisira.
ZV: Ndeupi maonero ako pamusoro pekuedza kwakasiyana kuratidza nesainzi fungidziro yeOntological yaBakunin yekuti vanhu vane "masikirwo erusununguko", kwete kuda chete asiwo kudiwa kwebiological?
HZ: Chaizvoizvo ini ndinotenda mune iyi pfungwa, asi ndinofunga kuti haugone kuve nehumbowo hwehupenyu hweizvi. Waizofanira kuwana jini rerusununguko? Kwete. Ndinofunga imwe nzira inobvira ndeyekufamba nenhoroondo yemaitiro evanhu. Nhoroondo yemafambiro evanhu inoratidza chido ichi cherusununguko, inoratidza kuti pese apo vanhu vanga vachirarama pasi pehudzvanyiriri, vanhu vaizopandukira izvozvo.