Mmodzi mwa anthu odziwika kwambiri m'mbiri ya ndale yaku America, mu 1971, monga katswiri wankhondo ku Rand Corporation, a Daniel Ellsberg adaganiza molimba mtima kuti atulutse masamba 7,000 a zikalata zachinsinsi kwambiri ku New York Times ndi Washington Post. -otchedwa Pentagon Papers, kuwulula mabodza a maulamuliro a US ponena za nkhondo ya Vietnam.
M'mafunsowa, Ellsberg, chithunzi cha onse oyimba mluzu, akuwonetsa kukhudzidwa kwake kwakukulu pakubweza kotheka kwa woyambitsa Wikileaks, Julian Assange, ku United States. Ellsberg akugogomezera kuti kumangidwa kwa Assange kumabwera pa nthawi yowopsya chifukwa cha ufulu wa atolankhani, ndikutsimikizira kuti boma la US likufuna kumulanga chifukwa adawulula zachiwawa za nkhondo ndi nkhanza za United States ku Iraq ndikuchititsa manyazi CIA pofalitsa zokhudzana ndi zoletsedwa. ntchito zowononga.
Komanso, a Daniel Ellsberg akutsimikizira kuti Purezidenti wa US, a Donald Trump, akuwonjezera nkhondo yake pa atolankhani. "Mlandu wotsutsana ndi Julian Assange ungakhale ndi zotsatira zoyipa pakulankhula kwaufulu ndipo ungakhale wotsutsana ndi demokalase yathu," atero Ellsberg. Izi zikuwopseza kwambiri ''osati kwa Wikileaks kokha, komanso ku The Guardian, The New York Times ndi nyuzipepala iliyonse yomwe imawona zolemba zachinsinsi'', Ellsberg akuwonjezera. Akukhulupiriranso kuti milandu ina idzaperekedwa kwa a Julian Assange ngati atatumizidwa ku United States. Ndikuyang'ana kwa gulu lazamalamulo la Assange tsopano likutembenukira kuti limenyane ndi pempho la US extradition, munthu yemwe adayambitsa chimodzi mwazinthu zazikulu kwambiri. Zakale karne akulankhula…
Yorgos Boskos (YB): Patha milungu yoposa itatu kuchokera pamene Julian Assange anamangidwa mkati mwa Embassy ya Ecuador ku London. Walamulidwa kukhala m'ndende kwa milungu 50 ndipo akukumanabe ndi milandu yaku US. Maganizo anu ndi otani?
Daniel Ellsberg (DE): Ndi nthawi yowopsya kwambiri ya ufulu wa atolankhani. Ndikuganiza kuti a Donald Trump akukulitsa nkhondo yake pa atolankhani. First Amendment (ufulu wa atolankhani ndi ufulu wolankhula) wakhala akugwiriridwa nthawi zonse kuti aletse kutsutsa kapena kutsutsa membala wa atolankhani chifukwa chochita ntchito yake, chifukwa chonena zoona ndi kudziwitsa anthu. Kwenikweni, apurezidenti am'mbuyomu, kuyambira ndikuzenga mlandu kwa Purezidenti Nixon, adagwiritsa ntchito Espionage Act motsutsana ndi magwero ngati ine.
Kuzengedwa mlandu kwanga pa Pentagon Papers mu 1971 kunali koyamba kwa munthu wa ku America popereka chidziwitso chowona kwa anthu, zomwe zinali kuswa Chisinthiko Choyambirira. Koma Nixon adagwiritsa ntchito Espionage Act - yomwe idapangidwira akazitape - motsutsana ndi ine, omwe adadziwitsa anthu aku America. Mlandu wanga unatha ndi kuwulula za khalidwe loipa limene boma linkandichitira, zomwe zinachititsa kuti akuluakulu angapo a boma andipeze ndi mlandu.
Nixon adagwiritsa ntchito Espionage Act - yomwe idapangidwira akazitape - motsutsana ndi ine, omwe adadziwitsa anthu aku America.
Ndikukumbutsani kuti pambuyo pa Purezidenti Obama, magwero ena awiri adatsutsidwa. Purezidenti Obama adatsutsa ndikuzenga mlandu anthu asanu ndi anayi. Khoti Lalikulu Kwambiri silinagwirizane ndi malamulo oyendetsera milanduwo, ponena za ngati First Amendment inalola kuti anthu aziimba mlandu ngati ineyo. Purezidenti Bush ndi Obama onse adaganiza zopita patsogolo ndikuzenga mlandu membala wa atolankhani mwachindunji, a Julian Assange. Komabe, Dipatimenti Yachilungamo pansi pa Obama sinazengereze milandu yomwe akuluakulu a Trump akutsutsa Assange.
YB: Mukuwona bwanji mlandu wotsutsana ndi Assange?
KWA: Kumuimba mlandu kukanasokoneza ufulu wolankhula, zomwe zikanaletsedwa ndi First Amendment ndipo zikanakhala zotsutsana ndi demokalase ku United States. Donald Trump wadutsa malire potsutsa Kusintha Koyamba, komwe palibe pulezidenti wina m'mbiri yathu adachitapo.
Tikuyembekeza kuti Assange adzaimbidwa mlandu wina ngati aku Britain amutumiza ku United States. Mlandu woyamba wotsutsana ndi Assange mwachiwonekere cholinga chake chinali chakuti a British amuchotse mosavuta, popanda kuimbidwa mlandu wophwanya malamulo apadziko lonse pochita zimenezi. Sindikukayika kuti milandu ina idzaperekedwa kwa iye ngati atachotsedwa. Assange akuyembekezeka kukhala m'ndende zaka zisanu. Komabe, ndili ndi chitsimikizo kuti gulu lazanzeru komanso olamulira a Trump sangakhutire kumuchotsa Julian Assange kwa zaka zisanu zokha. Mlandu wanga, poyamba anandibweretsera milandu itatu yokhoza kukhala chilango cha zaka 35, koma chakumapeto kwa chaka chomwecho ndinazengedwa mlandu pa milandu khumi ndi iŵiri ndi chilango chotheka cha zaka 115. Ndikuyembekeza kuti Julian akumananso ndi zomwezo.
Chifukwa chake, izi ndicholinga chowopseza ufulu wa atolankhani ndi mlandu womwewo. Komabe, chilichonse chomwe chingachitike kuchokera pano, ndikuwopa kuti zikhala ndi vuto paufulu wa atolankhani, zomwe ndizoyipa ku demokalase yathu, mfundo zakunja, komanso ufulu walamulo.
YB: Kodi mukuganiza kuti mlanduwu uli pachiwopsezo chachikulu ku mabungwe ena ofalitsa nkhani monga The New York Times?
KWA: Iwo adayimba mlandu wake woyamba mozama ndi cholinga chonena kuti zomwe Assange wachita sizochitika za utolankhani komanso kuti zofalitsa zina sizili pachiwopsezo..
Komabe, ndikukhulupirira kuti izi zidzakulitsidwa, chifukwa adatchulanso machitidwe ena okhudzana ndi izi - monga maziko a milandu yamtsogolo - yomwe ndizochitika zodziwika bwino za utolankhani, malinga ndi iwo. Mwachitsanzo, kugwiritsa ntchito njira yolumikizirana mwachinsinsi, kuthandiza gwero kusunga zinsinsi zake ndikupangira chiwembu chomwe akuti ndi gwero kuti asindikize zambiri zachinsinsi. Izi zitha kugwira ntchito pamilandu ya Pentagon Papers, komanso kuwululidwa kwa zidziwitso zomwe zimachitika pafupifupi tsiku lililonse.
Ngati mugwiritsa ntchito chiwembu pa izi, mumangochotsa kuwululidwa kosaloledwa. Ndipo ndanena kale kuti kuwululidwa kosaloledwa ndi moyo wa Republic ndi dziko laulere. Chifukwa chake, sizikugwira ntchito ku Wikileaks kokha, komanso ku Le Monde, El País, The Guardian, The New York Times ndi nyuzipepala iliyonse yomwe imawona kusindikiza zachinsinsi.
YB: Kodi United States ili ndi ufulu womuchotsa ku United Kingdom?
KWA: Pali zoletsa pansi pa Lamulo la Padziko Lonse pazomwe dziko lingathe kubweza anthu. Komabe, cholinga pankhaniyi ndi ndale; kutsekereza munthu yemwe wafalitsa zinthu zochititsa manyazi kwa akuluakulu aku US ndikuwopseza ena kuti asatero. Sizingakhale zandale. Koma aku Britain amasankha kusatanthauzira izi ngati ndale. Ndiye, mukakamba za 'chabwino', sindikudziwa momwe zinthu zimagwiritsidwira ntchito. Ndinganene kuti adzakhala otsutsidwa, monganso Ecuador, yomwe idaphwanya ufulu wake wothawirako womwe idampatsa. Purezidenti wakale waku Ecuador, yemwe adamupatsa chitetezo, Correa, akuti Moreno ndi wachiwembu chifukwa chochotsa chitetezo cha Assange.
Chifukwa chake, funso lanu la 'ubwino' ndi funso lomwe layankhidwa kale ndi mabungwe a UN, omwe adanena kuti kutsekeredwa kwa Julian ku Embassy ya Ecuador kumaphwanya ufulu wapadziko lonse lapansi. Koma alibe mphamvu yoti ayankhe ku Britain pazimenezi, monga momwe ndikudziwira. Ngati dziko la United Kingdom lipereka a Julian Assange ku United States, adzaimbidwa mlandu wotsogolera kuwombera mluzu pansi pa lamulo la Espionage Act - monga ine ndinaliri - ndipo sadzakhala ndi mwayi woweruzidwa mwachilungamo kukhothi la US. Kaya mukutumikira zofuna za dziko kapena ayi, simungaweruzidwe mwachilungamo pansi pa lamulo la Espionage Act.
YB: Kodi cholinga chenicheni cha boma la US ndi chiyani, malinga ndi inu?
KWA: Iwo akufunitsitsa kumulanga chifukwa chovumbula upandu wankhondo. Boma la Obama likufuna kumutsutsa. Panali mamembala a Congress ndi akuluakulu omwe adanena kuti Julian Assange apachikidwe. Panthawi ina, Mlembi wa boma, Hillary Clinton, yemwe anachita manyazi ndi mavumbulutso, adanena - kaya akuseka kapena ayi - kuti akhoza kukhala mutu wa drone.
Sindikukayika kuti angasangalale ngati angamuphe ndi kuthawa. Choyamba, akufuna kumulanga ndipo, kachiwiri, apange chitsanzo kuchokera kwa iye kuti aletse zinthu zoterezi m'tsogolomu. Ndikuganiza kuti akufuna kumusiya kwa nthawi yayitali kuposa zaka zisanu ndipo angasangalale kuona kuti chilango cha imfa chikugwira ntchito kwa iye. Koma pali vuto la lamulo pochita zimenezo. Choyamba, sangatchulidwe kuti ndi wachinyengo ku United States, chifukwa si nzika ya US. Kachiwiri, kudzakhala kuphwanya Koyamba. Koma mukudziwa, Purezidenti Trump sakanasamala za Kusintha Koyamba, Constitution, Migwirizano Yapadziko Lonse kapena chilichonse.
YB: Donald Trump adanena mobwerezabwereza chisankho cha US chisanachitike: ''Ndimakonda Wikileaks''. Tsopano, iye akuti sakudziwa kanthu za iwo…
KWA: Monga aliyense wogwira ntchito ndi woyang'anira. Amakonda kutayikira komwe kumatumikira masankho awo, bungwe, bajeti kapena kayendetsedwe kawo. Izo zimachitika nthawi zonse. Julian Assange adachititsa manyazi CIA pofalitsa zambiri za ntchito zake zosaloledwa. Koma izi sizimene akuimbidwa mlandu. Amayimbidwa mlandu - mpaka pano, atha kubweretsa milandu yambiri pambuyo pake - ndi zomwe adachita pansi pa Obama zomwe zidawululira milandu yankhondo ku United States, monga ntchito za drone, zomwe mosakayikira zapitilizidwa.
Ulamuliro uliwonse kuyambira pano, molingana ndi machitidwe ake a drone, amafuna chinsinsi komanso chete momwe zingathere. Safuna mavumbulutso ngati a Julian.
Ulamuliro uliwonse kuyambira pano, molingana ndi machitidwe ake a drone, amafuna chinsinsi komanso chete momwe zingathere. Safuna mavumbulutso ngati a Julian. Kupatula nthawi yomwe chisankho chisanachitike, Trump anali wokondwa kuwona kutayikira komwe kungapweteke mdani wake.
YB: Wolemba nkhani wa Washington Post wanena posachedwa kuti Julian Assange si mtolankhani kapena a Daniel Ellsberg. Maganizo anu ndi otani?
KWA: Choyamba, iye si gwero, monga Chelsea Manning, Edward Snowden kapena ine. Julian Assange ali pamalo omwewo ngati a Bill Keller kapena atolankhani ena mu The New York Times omwe amafalitsa zidziwitso zofunikira kwa anthu. Choncho, ndimayamikira kwambiri zochita zake. Chowonadi ndi chakuti a Julian Assange adanyozedwa ndi atolankhani ndi maulamuliro mpaka kufika pamlingo womwe wamupangitsa kukhala wosakondedwa komanso kusokoneza anthu. Komabe, ali ndi omuthandiza amphamvu. Ndine wothandizira kwambiri zomwe adachita mu 2010 osati ntchito zake zaposachedwa. Sindine wokondwa ndi zigamulo zonse zomwe wapanga zaka zingapo zapitazi, kuphatikiza pa chisankho cha US. N’zoona kuti anali ndi ufulu wofalitsa uthengawo. Komabe, sindinasangalale ndi zotsatira za chidziwitsocho, chifukwa ndikuganiza kuti iwo anawononga mwayi wa Hillary Clinton wopambana chisankho.
Ndidafunadi kuti anthu a m'maiko opindika adzavotere Clinton. Ndipo ndidzalengeza voti yanga; Sindinavotere Hillary Clinton. Ndimavotera Bernie Sanders pa voti yanga yaku California. Ndili ndi zotsutsa zazikulu za Hilary Clinton, monganso ambiri kumanzere. Koma sindinagwirizane ndi ena kumanzere omwe adanena kuti Donald Trump ndi woipa kuposa Hillary Clinton. Sindikugwirizana nazo kwambiri.
Choncho, sindivomereza chisankho chilichonse chimene wapanga. Julian Assange wakhala m'chipinda chimodzi kwa zaka zisanu ndi ziwiri. Sindikudziwa momwe kuweruza kwanga kungakhalire kwabwino nditatsekeredwa m'ndende monga choncho. Pamene anakokedwa kunja kwa kazembeyo, kumeneko kunali kuwala kwadzuwa koyamba kumene iye anawona m’zaka zisanu ndi ziŵiri.
Koma Julian Assange anali ndi ufulu wofalitsa zomwe zinavulaza Clinton chisankho chisanachitike. Ndipo zinali zochititsa chidwi.
YB: M’zaka zapitazi, akuluakulu a boma la United States akhala akudzudzula Wikileaks chifukwa choika chitetezo cha dziko pachiswe. Kodi mukuvomereza zimenezo?
KWA: Ayi ndithu. Wikileaks yafalitsa zambiri zomwe zinali zochititsa manyazi kwa akuluakulu a US. Ndikuvomereza kuti pali zinsinsi zina zomwe ziyenera kubisika, koma ndizochepa kwambiri. Chelsea Manning ndi Julian Assange anaimbidwa mlandu wokhala ndi magazi m'manja mwawo potulutsa mu 2010-2011, zomwe ndidavomereza kwambiri.
Palibe umboni umodzi womwe waperekedwa kuti Wikileaks amaika chitetezo cha dziko pachiwopsezo. Ngati akanatha kusonyeza kuti Chelsea Manning, Edward Snowden kapena Julian Assange anavulaza munthu aliyense kapena chitetezo cha dziko pazochitika zinazake, tingadziwe kuti pazikuto za magazini athu kapena nyuzipepala. Sanabwere ndi kalikonse.
Zambiri zodziwika bwino siziyenera kukhala zachinsinsi pazokonda zadziko, kupatula pang'ono chabe. Ndinganene kuti makina osindikizira aulere ali ndi chidwi chathu komanso chitetezo cha dziko chifukwa ndimakhulupirira kuti mavumbulutso a panthawi yake akanatha kulepheretsa chiwawa chathu ku Iraq ndi nkhondo ya Vietnam. Ndikuganizanso kuti ngati Chelsea Manning kapena Edward Snowden akanakhala apamwamba mu 2002, sitikadaukira Iraq, zomwe zinachititsa kuti anthu pafupifupi milioni imodzi aphedwe.
Ndikuganizanso kuti ngati Chelsea Manning kapena Edward Snowden akanakhala apamwamba mu 2002, sitikadaukira Iraq, zomwe zinachititsa kuti anthu pafupifupi milioni imodzi aphedwe.
YB: Pazaka makumi angapo zapitazi, dziko la US lakhala likuchita nawo nkhondo yosalekeza. Kodi akuluakulu a ndale m'dziko muno akwanitsa bwanji kugulitsa maganizo akuti ''zochitapo'' zinali ndi cholinga chobweretsa bata m'madera ena?
KWA: Anthu akhoza kudzinyenga okha. Mwachitsanzo, pali anthu ena omwe amavomereza kukakamiza kwathu ku Venezuela. Tchulani chitsanzo chimodzi chimene kuloŵerera kwa America kwathandiza anthu akumaloko kwa nthaŵi yaitali. Palibe chitsanzo chotero kaya ku Latin America kapena kwina kulikonse. Thandizo la ku America kwa atsamunda achi Greek mu 1967 ndi mfundo ina yochititsa manyazi, yachiwembu, komanso yonyansa kwambiri ku United States. Inali ntchito yobisala yaku US yothandizira ma Colonels achi Greek. Musaiwale kuti Mtsamunda Papadopoulos analipo pantchito ya CIA. Tinachirikiza ulamuliro wa atsamunda ku Greece kwa zaka zisanu ndi ziŵiri. Tidathandizira kuzunzidwa ku Iraq, komwe Chelsea Manning adavumbulutsa. Mazunzo amenewo anali obisika ndi kukanidwa. Musaiwale kuti olamulira a GW Bush anakana ngakhale kuvomereza kuti panali kuzunzika ndikulankhulidwa momveka bwino, monga "kufunsidwa kowonjezereka". Kuzunzikako sikuloledwa pansi pa malamulo apakhomo ndi akunja. Wothandizira wakale wa CIA, a John Kiriakou, adaweruzidwa kuti akhale m'ndende miyezi 30 chifukwa choulula zachizunzo mobisa. Mtsogoleri wamakono wa CIA, Gina Haspel, adagwira nawo ntchito yoyendetsa misasa yozunzirako chinsinsi.
Kodi ndizothandiza ku America kuzunza anthu? Izi sizovomerezeka kapena zofunikira pachitetezo cha America. Kulowerera kwathu kwankhondo ku Syria, komwe kumayenera kupindulitsa anthu aku Syria, kunali kwachinyengo. Pankhani ya Syria, Hillary Clinton adawoneka woyipa kwambiri kuposa Trump. Anali kunena za malo opanda moto, zomwe zikanatibweretsera nkhondo yeniyeni ndi anthu a ku Russia. Izi zikuwonetsa kuweruza koyipa. Akuluakulu aku America - Republican ndi Democrats - agwirizana mokomera ufumu wobisika waku America. Ndimati ''zobisika'' chifukwa zimatengera kukana zowona zenizeni, ndi umboni wosokeretsa wa kukhudzidwa kwathu.
YG: Tikayang'ana m'mbuyo, kodi mungatengenso chiopsezo chachikulu chotulutsa Pentagon Mapepala?
KWA: Nthawi zonse ndimadandaula kuti sindinachite izi kale. Ndikadatha kuzichita mu 1964 m'malo mwa 1971. Ndikudandaula kuti ndinachedwetsa vumbulutso limenelo mpaka zaka zingapo pambuyo pake, chifukwa nkhondo ya Vietnam ikanatha kupewedwa.
Choncho, ndikanauza anthu ena kuti asachite zimene ndinachita, osadikira mpaka mabomba atayamba kugwa ndipo anthu masauzande ambiri amwalira. Ngati muli ndi chidziwitso, tchulani mtengo womwe ungakhale. Musadikire mpaka mutalephera kuwongolera zikalatazo ndipo mutha kuyankhula popanda zikalata.
Monga Chelsea Manning adanena "kumangidwa moyo kapena imfa". Nditamva kuti ananena zimenezi, ndinazindikira kuti ndi mmene ndinkamvera kale mu 1971. Ndinali ndisanamvepo munthu aliyense akunena zimenezi kwa zaka 39 zapitazi. Zaka zitatu pambuyo pake, a Edward Snowden adaperekanso chigamulo chomwecho. Edward Snowden wanena mobwerezabwereza, '' Popanda Daniel Ellsberg, palibe Ed Snowden ''. Mu 2012, pamene Snowden ankaganizira zoti achite, adawona zolemba za ine, ''Munthu woopsa kwambiri ku America''. Conco, iye anadziŵa kuti akakhala m’ndende kwa zaka 115, monganso ine. Zimenezo zinamuthandiza kuchita zimenezo. Chifukwa pali chowonadi choyenera kufera kuti chiwululidwe.
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