Gwero: Demokalase Tsopano!
Zaka makumi asanu zapitazo sabata ino, The New York Times idayamba kusindikiza zolemba za Pentagon Papers - masamba a 7,000 a zinsinsi zapamwamba zofotokoza mbiri yachinsinsi ya Pentagon yakuchitapo kanthu kwa US ku Vietnam kuyambira 1940s. Kutulutsa komwe kunavumbulutsa zaka zaboma zaboma pankhondoyi, kudawulula kuti ngakhale akuluakulu amakhulupirira kuti sizingatheke, ndipo pamapeto pake amathandizira kuthetsa nkhondo ya Vietnam ndikupangitsa chigonjetso chachikulu cha ufulu wa atolankhani. The Times exposé idachokera pazikalata zojambulidwa mwachinsinsi ndi a Daniel Ellsberg ndi Anthony Russo, omwe onse amagwira ntchito ngati alangizi a Pentagon ku Pentagon. RAND Corporation. Ellsberg, yemwe adakhudzidwa kwambiri ndi nkhondo ya Vietnam monga katswiri wofufuza zachitetezo, adaganiza zoika moyo wawo pachiswe kundende kuti aulule zowona za Vietnam. Ndinanamizidwa. Dziko lonse linanamizidwa. Congress idanamizidwa kuti zidali bwanji, "akutero Ellsberg. Ananenanso kuti akuluakulu aboma adadziwa kwa zaka zambiri kuti nkhondoyo "inali ndi mwayi wochepa wothandiza aliyense, koma zomwe zidapangitsa kuti pakhale vuto lalikulu."
AMY GOODMAN: izi ndi Demokarase Tsopano!, democracynow.org, Lipoti Lodzipatula. Ndine Amy Goodman.
Zaka makumi asanu zapitazo sabata ino, The New York Times anayamba kusindikiza zolemba za Pentagon Papers - masamba a 7,000 a zolemba zachinsinsi zofotokoza mbiri yachinsinsi ya nkhondo ya US ku Vietnam. Kutulutsaku kumatha kuthandiza kutsitsa Purezidenti Nixon, kuthandizira kuthetsa Nkhondo ku Vietnam ndikupangitsa chigonjetso chachikulu chaufulu wa atolankhani. The Times Kuwululidwa kudachokera pazikalata zojambulidwa mwachinsinsi ndi a Daniel Ellsberg ndi Anthony Russo pomwe amagwira ntchito ngati alangizi a Pentagon ku RAND Corporation. Ellsberg anali atalowerera kwambiri pa nkhondo ya ku Vietnam, ndipo anayamba ulendo wopita ku Vietnam monga katswiri wofufuza za Pentagon mu 1964. Koma atatha kutsutsa nkhondoyo, Ellsberg anaganiza zoika moyo wake pachiswe m’ndende kuti aulule zoona zake zokhudza Vietnam. Amuna awiriwa anaimbidwa mlandu wophwanya lamulo la Espionage Act la 1917, komanso kuba komanso kuchita chiwembu.
Ichi ndi gawo lazolemba za 2009 Munthu Woopsa Kwambiri ku America. Zimayamba ndi Dan Ellsberg.
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Anali madzulo a October 1, 1969, pamene ndinazembetsa masamba mazana angapo a zikalata zachinsinsi kuchokera pachitetezo changa pamalo otetezeka. RAND Corporation. Phunziroli linali ndi mavoliyumu 47, masamba 7,000. Dongosolo langa linali xerox phunziro ndikuwulula mbiri yachinsinsi ya Nkhondo ya Vietnam kwa anthu aku America.
NEWSCASTER: The FBI anali kuyesa kupeza amene anapereka The New York Times kope la kafukufuku wachinsinsi wa Pentagon.
MIKE MADZIWA: Pow!, ngati kugunda kwa bingu, mumapeza The New York Times kusindikiza Pentagon Papers, ndipo dziko likuchita mantha.
HENRY KISSINGER: Uku ndikuukira kukhulupirika konse kwa boma. Ngati makabati athunthu amafayilo atha kubedwa ndikuperekedwa kwa atolankhani, simungakhalenso ndi boma ladongosolo.
WALTER CRONKITE: Dzina tsopano latuluka ngati gwero lothekera la Times Zolemba za Pentagon. Ndi a Daniel Ellsberg, wowunikira mfundo zapamwamba ku Dipatimenti ya Chitetezo ndi Boma.
PRESIDENT Richard mogwirizana ndi mayina awo Nixon: Ndikuganiza kuti nthawi yakwana mdziko muno yosiya kupanga ngwazi zadziko mwa omwe amaba zinsinsi ndikuzilemba munyuzipepala.
PATRICIA ELLSBERG: Mumwaanda wamyaka wakusaanguna, tulajana kuti wakajanika muntolongo kwabuumi bwakwe boonse.
Mtolankhani: Dr. Ellsberg, kodi muli ndi nkhawa kuti mutha kupita kundende chifukwa cha izi?
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Kodi simungapite kundende kukathandiza kuthetsa nkhondoyi?
EGIL "BID" KROGH JR.: Tinamva mwamphamvu kwambiri kuti tikulimbana ndi vuto lachitetezo cha dziko. Henry Kissinger ananena kuti Dr. Daniel Ellsberg anali “munthu woopsa kwambiri ku America” ndipo anayenera kuimitsidwa.
AMY GOODMAN: Chidule cha Munthu Woopsa Kwambiri ku America: Daniel Ellsberg ndi Pentagon Papers. Zolembazo zidatsogozedwa ndi Judith Ehrlich ndi Rick Goldsmith.
Boma la Nixon liyenera kuchitapo kanthu modabwitsa kuti atontholetse ndi kulanga Ellsberg, kuphatikizapo kulowa mu ofesi ya dokotala wake wamisala. Koma kusachita bwino kwa boma kunapangitsa kuti aimbidwe mlandu ndipo Anthony Russo achotsedwe.
Kuti tikumbukire zaka 50 za kusindikizidwa kwa Pentagon Papers, tsopano taphatikizidwa ndi Daniel Ellsberg, yemwe adakwanitsa zaka 90 mu Epulo. Pazaka makumi asanu zapitazi, Ellsberg wakhala akutsutsa kwambiri zankhondo zaku US ndi mfundo za zida za nyukiliya zaku US, komanso woimira anthu ena oimba mluzu. O, ndipo sanasiye kugawana zinsinsi za boma. Tikambirana chimodzi mwa zinsinsi zomwe ananena kuti ndi wokonzeka kuimbidwa mlandu, zomwe adangotulutsa. Koma pakali pano tikupita ku Berkeley, California, kunyumba ya Daniel Ellsberg.
Dan, talandiridwanso Demokarase Tsopano! Ichi ndi chochitika chofunikira kwambiri. Izo zinali theka la zaka zapitazo Lamlungu The New York Times anayamba kusindikiza Pentagon Papers. Lankhulani za momwe adapezera mapepalawo, ndi chisankho chomwe mudapanga, makamaka kwa achinyamata, panthawi yomwe mudachoka, mukudziwa, kugwira ntchito ku Pentagon, kupita ku Vietnam, kukhala mbali ya makina ankhondo, ndi ndiye kutembenuka ndi kunena, “Ine ndikhala moyo wanga wonse m’ndende, ndiyenera kutero, kuti ndisiye izi.”
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Chabwino, ulendo woyamba womwe ndinapita ku Vietnam, Amy, unalidi mu 1961 pa ntchito yofufuza yomwe ikuyang'ana kafukufuku wochepa wa nkhondo ndi chitukuko. Ndipo zinali zoonekeratu mu sabata imodzi kumeneko, kuyankhula ndi anzawo akuluakulu a usilikali omwe anali kulangiza Vietnamese komanso omwe anali kuyang'ana nkhondoyo mosamala, ndikuwerenga malipoti awo, kuti zinaonekeratu kuti nkhondoyo, pansi pa wolamulira wankhanza, wankhanza, Ngo Dinh. Diem, yemwe anali ngati zisankho, pomwe amangofuna kupambana 102% ya ovota m'maboma ena, adalephera, motsutsana ndi gulu lomwe limatsogozedwa ndi achikomyunizimu omwe adathamangitsa a French kumpoto kwa dziko zaka zingapo m'mbuyomo. ndipo anali ndi gulu la anthu omasula dziko kuchoka ku ntchito. Ndipo tinali - a US anali atajambula mwachisawawa gawo la dzikolo ngati dziko lodana ndi chikominisi, lomwe tidathandizira kwambiri - ngati, mwachitsanzo, Britain idathandizira Confederacy mopambanitsa pa Nkhondo Yathu Yapachiweniweni - ndipo, kwenikweni. , anali atapereka mayunifolomu awo onse, zipolopolo zawo, chakudya chawo, chirichonse, zomwe ndi zomwe tinachitira asilikali a zidole ku South Vietnam. Zinali zoonekeratu kuti amenewo anali malo osadalirika kwambiri obzala mbendera motsutsana ndi chikomyunizimu kapena imperialism m'dzikolo, mopanda nzeru monga momwe zinalili kwa Afalansa kuyesa kugonjetsanso dzikolo. Ndipo tidathandizira a French kuyambira 45 mpaka 54, ndipo tidatenga udindo wopondereza dzikolo ndikulilanda tokha.
Kotero, ndinadabwa kwambiri mu '61 pamene ndinamva kuti Purezidenti Kennedy adatenga uphungu wonenedwa wa tcheyamani wa Joint Chiefs of Staff, Maxwell Taylor, ndi Walt Rostow, munthu wamkulu wa ndondomeko, kuti zonse zomwe zinkafunika zinali alangizi, kuti sanafunikire kutumiza asilikali ankhondo, ndipo kupita patsogolo kungapangidwe ngati titangodutsa pa denga la Geneva la 1954 la alangizi mpaka pafupifupi 600, kupita ku chikwi ndipo mwina zikwi zingapo - pamapeto pake, panali Alangizi 12,000 kumeneko - koma zinali zokwanira kuti dzikolo likhale m'manja mwathu, makamaka.
Limenelo linakhala bodza. Nditawerenga Pentagon Papers patapita zaka - zomwe zinali mu '61. Ndinkawerenga zolembazo mu '67, ndipo ndinali ndi chidwi kwambiri ndikuwona kuti malangizo awo anali otani. Ndipo zomwe zidachitika ndikuti purezidenti amanama komanso kuti - ndipo adamuthandizira, pamzere - ndikuti upangiri wawo unali wakuti alangizi sangakhale okwanira kuletsa magulu ankhondo omwe tikulimbana nawo ndikuti zotheka kokha. kunali kutumiza asilikali nthawi yomweyo, ndipo, ndithudi, kuti iwo analibe malonjezo ambiri kuti tidzachita bwino kuposa Achifalansa, koma palibe chochepa chomwe chikanachita ntchitoyi. Kunena kwina, ndinanamizidwa, dziko lonse linanamizidwa, a Kongeresi ananamizidwa kuti zinthu zinali bwanji.
Eya, zimenezo zinali zofanana ndi nkhondo yonse ya zaka 30, imene kwenikweni inali kuyambira 1945 mpaka 75. Chidutswa chaposachedwa cha Burns-Novick, chonena za nkhondoyi, chimayamba ndi mawu akuti: "Zinayambika ndi amuna amakhalidwe abwino okhala ndi zolinga zabwino." Zimenezi sizinali zoona kwa tsiku limodzi la nkhondo imeneyo. Ngakhale anali olemekezeka m'malo ena, amuna anzeru awa, nthawi zambiri, anzeru monga momwe tilili masiku ano, adatha kunamiza anthu tsiku lililonse lankhondo, ndipo, mwachikhulupiriro choyipa, amatsata nkhondo yomwe adawona kuti inali nayo. mwayi wochepa wothandiza aliyense, koma zomwe zimabweretsa vuto lomwe likukulirakulira - zomwe ndi zomwe zidachitikadi - zaka 20 zotsatira zankhondo kapena apo, kuchokera - zaka 15, kuchokera '61 mpaka' 75.
Chifukwa chake, nditazindikira kuti izi zikubwereza, mbiriyo, yomwe mu Pentagon Papers ndi mu '68, ndikuchoka kwa Purezidenti Johnson - ndipo tsopano tinali mu '69, ndipo ndinadziwitsidwa kuti Purezidenti Nixon akutsatira ndendende. m'mapazi a am'mbuyomu, pouza anthu, mu kampeni yake yachisankho ndi zina, anali kutuluka. Ndipo, m'malo mwake, adakonza zotulutsa asitikali aku US - asitikali aku US - pang'onopang'ono, munthawi yake yoyamba, mwachiyembekezo posachedwa, koma, ngati kuli kofunikira, monga momwe zidakhalira, pakapita zaka, ndikutsata nkhondo mpaka kalekale, kupyolera mu nthawi yake yachiwiri, mumlengalenga, akuchirikiza Purezidenti Thieu, mtsogoleri wa zidole, wamkulu wakale, ku Vietnam ndi asilikali ake, gulu lankhondo lomwe tinkawathandiza ndikuwongolera, ndi ndege za US.
Ndipo iye anakwanitsa zimenezo. Iye pafupifupi anatero, kwenikweni. Pofika m'ma 73, adatulutsa asitikali aku America. Anthu ankaganiza kuti, “Nkhondo yatha.” Koma ponena za kuphulika kwa mabomba, kutulutsa othawa kwawo, kuzunzika, imfa ku Vietnam, iye anali kupitirizabe monga kale, ndipo akadatero mpaka 1977 ndipo kenako, pulezidenti sanakakamizidwe kusiya ntchito chifukwa cha zomwe adachita. ndondomeko yotsimikizira ndondomeko yake ndikutsimikizira kukhala kwake paudindo. Mwakutero, adasunga mfundo zake zowopseza nkhondo ya nyukiliya ngakhale ndikuwopseza kukwera kwakukulu, monga migodi ya Haiphong ndi migodi ya Hanoi ndi kuphulitsa Hanoi, zomwe adachita, ndikupita kumalo otchedwa opatulika, mayiko ena, mayiko ena odziyimira pawokha, monga. Laos ndi Cambodia, zonse zomwe adazichita. Anachita chirichonse koma kuchita kwenikweni zida za nyukiliya, zomwe adakambirana pazigawo zapamwamba kwambiri - ndikuwuza anthu kuti akutuluka munkhondo nthawi yonseyi - bodza lina lalikulu, monga tinayambira.
Ndipo ndidatulutsa mu 1969 ku Senate, kenako ku nyuzipepala mu '71, umboni woti asanu am'mbuyomu - apurezidenti anayi am'mbuyomu adalankhula zabodza zofananira ndi ziwopsezo ndi ziwopsezo, ndipo nkhondo idapitilira. Iwo ankakonda kukhetsa magazi, kuwonjezereka kwachisokonezo kuti athetse nkhondoyo njira yokhayo yomwe ikanathere, zomwe zinali kupatsa asilikali otsogozedwa ndi chikominisi chakum'mwera udindo m'boma ndikuletsa kuphulika kwa mabomba kumpoto.
Koma Nixon adawonekera kwambiri kwa Purezidenti Thieu, Nguyen Van Thieu, kuti adamusunga mmenemo ngakhale kuti chinali chinthu chokhacho chomwe chinagawanitsa izi ndikusunga nkhondo mu 1971 ndi 72. Tidaphunzira pambuyo pake kuti Thieu adadziwona ngati adasankha Nixon, ndipo adachita bwino kutero. M’masiku otsiriza a 1968, anthu a Nixon, mwa kulamula kwake, zimene tinaphunzira patapita zaka zambiri, anali kuuza Thieu kuti, “Dikira. Osakambirana. Tikupatsirani mawu abwinoko. " Ndipo ndithudi iye ankaganiza zomupatsa iye mawu abwinoko, ndipo iye anatero. "Tidzakusungani mumphamvu," ngakhale kuti chikomyunizimu chikufuna kuti pakhale zokambirana kuti Thieu mwiniwake asakhale mbali ya gululo. Ndipo ndi zomwe tinali kumenyera. Ndi chifukwa chake masauzande aku America - ndi mamiliyoni aku Vietnamese - adamwalira: kuti Thieu akhale ndi mphamvu bola Nixon anali, zomwe zidachitika. Nixon adachoka Thieu asanachite, ndipo Thieu adachoka mu '75.
Sizikanachitika, zikanakhala kuti Nixon sanakumanepo ndi milandu chifukwa cha milandu yomwe adatenga kuti nkhondoyo ipitirire ndikubisala, zolakwa zomwe zimandipangitsa kuti ndisatulutse zikalata zatsopano zomwe zingamuneneze, monga ziwopsezo za nyukiliya ndi ena omwe anali kuwapanga. Ndipo pochita zimenezo, anaba ofesi yanga yakale ya psychoanalyst. Anatumiza katundu wa 12 waku Cuba wa Bay of Pigs kuti andithandize pa masitepe a Capitol. Pa Meyi 3, adandimva ndikulemba mawaya osaloledwa, opanda chilolezo. Pamene zonsezi zinayamba kutuluka chifukwa cha kunena zoona kwa John Dean kwa otsutsa; Alex Butterfield akunena zoona ponena za kujambula kwa Oval Office, yomwe ndi yofunikira; Elliot Richardson ndi Ruckelshaus akukana malamulo a pulezidenti kuti athamangitse woimira boma pamilandu wapadera, kuti athamangitse woimira milandu wapadera yemwe akufuna matepi; Khothi Lalikulu, kuphatikizapo atatu omwe adasankhidwa a Nixon, adagamula mogwirizana kuti adawapereka - zonsezi zinali zofunika kuti ayang'ane Purezidenti atasiya ntchito kapena kumuyimitsa. Ndipo atasankha kusiya ntchitoyo, nkhondoyo inatha. Ichi ndichifukwa chake - ndichifukwa chake Purezidenti - m'malo mwake, Henry Kissinger adanditcha "munthu wowopsa kwambiri ku America," chifukwa amawopa kuti ndili ndi zikalata - zikalata - zomwe zinganene zoona zabodza zomwe iye ndi abwana ake akunena.
AMY GOODMAN: Tsopano, izi zinali ngakhale mutatulutsa Pentagon Papers. Ndikufuna kubwereranso ku documentary ija, Munthu Woopsa Kwambiri ku America: Daniel Ellsberg ndi Pentagon Papers, gawo ili lofotokoza momwe Nixon White House idayankhira pakutayikira kwanu. Zimayamba ndi John Dean, yemwe adatumikira ngati uphungu wa White House kwa Purezidenti Nixon.
JOHN Dean: Ndikuganiza kuti mwina pali zifukwa zabwino zomwe Nixon anali nazo. Adzapanga chigamulo mu National Security Council ndipo tsiku lotsatira analiwerenga patsamba loyamba la The New York Times kapena nyuzipepala ina. Izi zimapangitsa kuti zikhale zosatheka kulamulira.
PRESIDENT Richard mogwirizana ndi mayina awo Nixon: Chifukwa chakuti munthu wina adzakhala wofera chikhulupiriro, sitingathe kulola munthuyo kuti apulumuke ndi mtundu woterewu wakuba, kapena zichitika m'boma lonse. Ndikungonena kuti tiyenera kuyang'anitsitsa mpira waukulu. Mpira waukulu ndi Ellsberg. Ife tiyenera kumutenga uyu mwana wachigololo.
JOHN Dean: Kutulutsa kwa Pentagon Papers kunasintha Nixon White House. Ndi chimene ena aife timachitcha chiyambi cha nyengo yamdima. Ndikutanthauza, inali yaukali komanso yogwedera m'mbuyomu, koma idatsika ndi kuda. Chifukwa chake ndi chochitika chodziwika bwino cha purezidenti wa Nixon. Ndipo apa ndipamene Egil Krogh, Bud Krogh, adasankhidwa kukhala mtsogoleri wa gulu lotchedwa Plumbers unit.
EGIL "BID" KROGH JR.: Ndinaitanidwa ku Oval Office ndi pulezidenti. John Ehrlichman ndi ine tinakumana naye. Panali kukayikira kuti Dr. Ellsberg anali ndi mwayi wopeza ndondomeko za nkhondo zaposachedwapa zomwe zinapangidwa ndi akuluakulu a Nixon ndipo adzatha kumasula zikalatazo. Ndinabwera kuchokera ku msonkhanowu ndikumva mwamphamvu kwambiri kuti ndikulimbana ndi vuto la chitetezo cha dziko, ndipo ndinayenera kutenga njira iliyonse yofunikira kuti ndiyankhe.
PRESIDENT Richard mogwirizana ndi mayina awo Nixon: Chovuta ndichakuti maloya abwino nthawi zonse amati, "Chabwino, tiyenera kupambana kukhothi." Yang'anani mlandu wa khothi. Tiyeni timutsutse mwana wa chiwembu m'manyuzipepala. Umo ndi momwe zimachitikira.
EGIL "BID" KROGH JR.: Purezidenti adaganiza zokhazikitsa gulu lapadera lofufuza mu White House.
PRESIDENT Richard mogwirizana ndi mayina awo Nixon: Tiyenera kupeza timu yabwinoko.
CHARLES COLSON: Pali mnyamata m'modzi kunjako. Ndiwolimba ngati misomali. Dzina lake ndi Howard Hunt.
PRESIDENT Richard mogwirizana ndi mayina awo Nixon: Iye akanakhoza kuchita izo. Ndipo ine ndimuwongolera iye mwini. Ndipo ndimaziseweretsa magolovesi. Tsopano, Mulungu awononge izo, pitirirani nazo izo.
EGIL "BID" KROGH JR.: Kodi Daniel Ellsberg ankagwira ntchito yekha? Kodi anali kugwira ntchito ndi anthu ena? Kodi chinali mbali ya chiwembu? Ndipo zinali mu nkhaniyi kuti lingaliro linapangidwa ndi E. Howard Hunt kuti apeze zambiri zomwe zingagwiritsidwe ntchito kunyoza Dr. Ellsberg. Opaleshoni yachinsinsi iyenera kuchitidwa kuti awone mafayilo onse omwe adakali ndi a Dr. Ellsberg psychologist, Dr. Lewis Fielding. Izi zidapita kwa John Ehrlichman. Pansi pa lingalirolo panali mizere iwiri: kuvomereza mzere, kutsutsa mzerewo. Iye analemba “E” yake yaikulu pambuyo pa “kuvomereza” ndiyeno kuikamo “m’chitsimikiziro chanu sichingalondokedwe.”
AMY GOODMAN: Ndipo ndi gawo lochokera Munthu Woopsa Kwambiri ku America: Daniel Ellsberg ndi Pentagon Papers, zopelekedwa motsogozedwa ndi Judith Ehrlich ndi Rick Goldsmith.
Komanso Dan, The New York Times anali ndi gawo lapadera lotchedwa "Kuvumbulutsa Mbiri Yachinsinsi ya Nkhondo ya Vietnam" pofalitsa mapepala omwe mudawatsitsira. Iwo anali nazo izo dzulo. Ndipo pakati pa mawu omwe amatsindika, omwe ali ofunika kwambiri, ndi kusiyana kwa zomwe zinkanenedwa poyera ndi zomwe zinkanenedwa mwachinsinsi. Kotero, muli ndi nkhondo imakula mwachinsinsi. Mu 1963, Mlembi wa Chitetezo Robert McNamara pamsonkhano wa atolankhani ku White House anati, "Tinapenda mwatsatanetsatane mapulani a South Vietnamese ndi mapulani a alangizi athu ankhondo kuti agwire ntchito mu 1964. Tili ndi zifukwa zomveka zokhulupirira kuti apambana. .” Koma tsiku lomwelo, Disembala 21, 1963, McNamara adati mu memo kwa Purezidenti Lyndon Johnson, "Zinthuzi ndizovuta kwambiri. Zomwe zikuchitika pano, pokhapokha zitasinthidwa m'miyezi iwiri kapena itatu ikubwerayi, zipangitsa kuti anthu asamalowerere m'malo mwake komanso kuti dziko lolamulidwa ndi Chikomyunizimu lisamayende bwino. " Mu 1964, muli ndi Johnson akunena mu adilesi ya kanema, "Sitikufunabe nkhondo yowonjezereka," koma mu Pentagon Papers, imati, pa February 1st, 1964, "United States inayamba njira yatsopano ... tsiku, motsogozedwa ndi gulu lankhondo laku America, dongosolo lankhondo lachinsinsi lolimbana ndi dziko la North Vietnam lidakhazikitsidwa. ”
Ndikufuna kuyang'ana kwambiri pakupeza Pentagon Mapepala, Dan. Fotokozani kuti izi zinali chiyani - apa Kissinger ndi Nixon asanachite mantha kuti mukhala ndi vuto linanso pazanyukiliya - za lipoti lomwe lili pamalo anu otetezeka, lomwe anthu ochepa anali nalo, komanso lingaliro lanu lowasokoneza, kuphatikiza ana anu - Ndikuganiza kuti Robert Ellsberg, mwana wanu wazaka 13 panthawiyo, adakuthandizani kuti muchite izi - komanso chifukwa chake mudasankha kuchita izi ndikuphatikiza ana anu.
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Chabwino, mtolankhani wamkulu IF Stone adanenapo kuti, "Akuluakulu onse aboma amanama, ndipo palibe chomwe anganene kuti akhulupirire." Zimenezi sizikutanthauza kuti zonse zimene amanena ndi zabodza. Zikutanthauza kuti chilichonse chimene anganene chingakhale bodza, ndipo si mawu omalizira. Nthawi zonse amasocheretsa omvera amodzi kapena ena, ndipo muyenera kutsimikizira izi ndi nzeru zanu, kuzithandizira ndi zina. Palibe chomwe chikuwonetsa bwino polemba kuposa Pentagon Papers.
Koma, ndithudi, izo zidakali zoona lerolino. Zomwe mumanena zikanalembedwa za Afghanistan - ndipo, kwenikweni, zinali. Liti The Washington Post adapeza Mapepala a Afghan zaka zingapo zapitazo, otsika pang'ono, adawonetsa kuti mawu ofanana anali kunena za Afghanistan pankhondo yazaka 20 yomwe takumana nayo kumeneko. Ndipo zitha kukhala zaka 20, ngakhale ndi asitikali aku US atuluka mdzikolo, pomwe Nixon adatulutsa asitikali aku US mdzikolo mu '73 koma adakonzekera kupitiliza nkhondo ndi ndege. Ndipo ndikuganiza kuti palinso dongosolo pakali pano kuti apitilize nkhondo ku Afghanistan, kupha anthu aku Afghan, kupanga othawa kwawo, kosatha, kuchokera kumadera akunja kwa Afghanistan. Koma kachiwiri, muzochitika zonsezi, muli ndi anthu omwe akuyankhula momveka bwino komanso zenizeni mkati mwake za kusowa kwabwino, pamene kunja kwa anthu akutsimikiziridwa kuti ndalama zamisonkho zikhoza kuperekedwabe ku Congress kuti agule nyemba ndi nsapato ndi asilikali kwa ogwirizana athu a zidole kumeneko. mpaka kalekale.
Tsopano, nditamva kuti, chaka ndi chaka, ku Pentagon, '64,'65 - ndiye ndinali ku Vietnam kuyambira '65 mpaka' 67 - zinali zoonekeratu kuti mabodzawa akupitilirabe pofuna kuteteza nkhondo. kupita. Panali nthawi zonse njira ina yopitira pamwamba, monga Mafumu Ogwirizana ankafuna, popanda chiyembekezo chenicheni cha kupambana, kapena kutuluka mwanjira ina, kuchepetsa mtengo. Ndipo purezidenti adasankha nthawi iliyonse kuti asachite izi, kuti asaimbidwe mlandu woluza kapena kuithetsa, koma kuti apitilize, ndi lonjezo lopambana - lonjezo lopanda pake kunja, losatsimikizika pa mkati. Ndidawona kuti palibe - ndidawona, powerenga Pentagon Papers, kuti Purezidenti anali - Purezidenti pambuyo poti pulezidenti atalandira malipoti enieni kuchokera kwa anthu mkati - osati kwa aliyense, abodza ambiri, koma zambiri zomwe zinali zenizeni kuti amudziwitse. kuti anali ndi chisankho chotuluka. Ndipotu, akanatha kukhala ndi chithandizo chochuluka pochita zimenezo. Koma iye akanakhala ndi mlandu woti wagonja pankhondoyo. Akadachita zomwe a Joint Chiefs ankafuna, zomwe adadziwa, molondola, ndikuganiza, zinali zopusa kwambiri, zomwe zikanayambitsa nkhondo yanyukiliya ndi aku China, pankhani ya Vietnamese - adasankha kusachita izi, ndipo adasankha m'malo mwake. kuti zisokonezeke, pitirizani nkhondo.
Ndiye ndidawona kuti sizilipiridwanso kukhala munthu wapulezidenti kumupatsa zowona zenizeni. Iye anali nazo izo. Iye ankadziwa kuti si nkhani yolankhula zoona ku mphamvu. Mphamvu zinali kupeza chowonadi ndikusankha kusakhala munthu wogwa wa Ho Chi Minh City kukhala Saigon, monga momwe zidachitikira. Izo sizikanati zichitike pansi pa nthawi yake. Chifukwa chake, njira yokhayo yomwe ndimatha kuwona ndikupangitsa Congress kuchitapo kanthu. Pamapeto pake, mwa njira, adatero, pansi pa zochitika zachilendo za Watergate. Koma kwa zaka zambiri, izo sizinkawoneka ngati zolimbikitsa, ngakhale. Congressman pambuyo pa Congress, yemwe ndidawawonetsa izi, adasankhanso kundilola kuti ndifotokoze pomaliza pake, komanso kuti ndisakhale pachiwopsezo chopita kundende kapena kudzudzulidwa. Sindinathe kupeza aliyense woti awatulutse. Pomaliza, Neil Sheehan -
AMY GOODMAN: Ndikutanthauza, iyi ndi mfundo yovuta, Dan. Kulankhula - Ndikutanthauza, maseneta omwe amadziwika kuti maseneta odana ndi nkhondo, mudapitako wina ndi mnzake. Ndipo pamene ena amapepesa, amangoti sakanatha kuchita paokha.
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Chabwino, inde. Zimanenedwa kawirikawiri - dzulo lokha, pamene ndikupitiriza kuwerenga zinthu izi - ndimawerenga, nthawi ina iliyonse, iwo sanavomereze mapepala. Mmodzi wa iwo, McGovern, ngakhale adanena kuti sakanatha kuwavomereza, chifukwa anali osaloledwa.
AMY GOODMAN: Senator McGovern.
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Senator McGovern, yemwe adathamangira Purezidenti panthawiyo. Zimenezo zinali zosiyana ndi zimene ananena kwa ine. Aliyense wa apurezidenti ndi ma congressperson - Fulbright, McGovern, Woimira Pete McCloskey m'Nyumbayi, Senator Mathias ku Nyumba ya Seneti - aliyense wa iwo odana ndi nkhondo, olimbana ndi nkhondo mkati mwa Congress, aliyense mwachidwi adanena kuti agwiritsa ntchito mapepala, ndiyeno - ndipo adanditsimikizira kuti dzina langa siliyenera kutulukira, ndipo adzakoka Malamulo oyendetsera dziko lino ndi kunena, "Ndime ya malankhulidwe apa - sindingafunsidwe za chirichonse chimene ndingapereke pano. Sitiyenera kutchula dzina lako. Kwa aliyense, ndinati, "Sindikufuna kuti nditchule dzina, koma sikuti ndikuganizira. Ndine wokonzeka, wokonzeka kupita ku ndende pa zinthu izi, ngati pali chifukwa china chimene muyenera kundiimbira kuti mutsimikizire momwe munapezera mapepala ndi zina zotero.” Aliyense m’kupita kwa nthaŵi, atalingalira zimenezo, anabwerera m’mbuyo.
Ndi kuyang'ana mmbuyo pa izo, pamene Neil Sheehan wochokera ku Times anandiuza, "Musamayike mu Congress" - momwe ndimafunira - "Izingotuluka mu Times” — ndipo ankadziwa kuti tinali ndi mkangano pankhaniyi. Ndidaganiza kuti iziyenera kutuluka ku Congress kuti ipeze mboni zoyitanira, kulumbiritsa anthu, kubweretsa mboni zotsutsana ndi zikalatazo. Ndinkaganiza kuti zinali zabwino kwambiri kuti zituluke m'manyuzipepala kaye. Koma iye ankangokhalira kunena kuti, “Ayi Dan, ziyenera kutuluka m’manyuzipepala. Ndipo ine, moona, ndinaganiza, “Chabwino, iye wakopeka pang'ono pamenepo pakupeza Mphotho ya Pulitzer,” ndi zina zotero. Sindinakhulupirire.
Ndipo iye anali kulondola, kwenikweni. Pambuyo pake, Pentagon Papers itatuluka, onse a Senator Mansfield, mtsogoleri wambiri, Senator Fulbright, mtsogoleri wamayiko akunja, wapampando, adati, "Tsopano tiyenera kumva." Ndipo ndidaziyembekezera izi. Sizinachitike. M'malo mwake, anali Nixon yemwe amafuna kuti anthu azimvetsera, ndikuganiza kuti adayesa kuchititsa Congressman Hébert kuti amve, chifukwa, pazolinga zonse mbali zonse, adatsutsa makamaka ma Democrat. Nixon adazifuna ngakhale zidapangitsanso kuti apurezidenti aziwoneka oyipa. Maseneta sanafune, chifukwa anali a Democrat -
AMY GOODMAN: Dan, tili ndi zambiri zoti tikambirane mu nthawi yochepa. Koma ndikufuna kuti ndifike pamene inu ndi Tony Russo, amene munapangana chiwembu, amene anali kugwira ntchito RAND Corporation, idati, "Tiyeni tichite," ndipo mudaganiza zofotokozera lipoti lamasamba 7,000. Munapanga bwanji? Munatulutsa bwanji mapepala? Ndiyeno nkhani yopita mobisa.
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Chabwino, ndinanena nkhaniyi nthawi zambiri, koma zinkakhudza - ndinamufunsa Tony ngati amadziwa wina yemwe ali ndi makina a Xerox. Mnzake yemwe panthawiyo anali mkazi wa Lynda Sinay, yemwe tsopano ndi Lynda Resnick, ku California, anachita mbali yofunika kwambiri ponena kuti, "Inde, mungagwiritse ntchito makina anga a Xerox," ankalipira masenti 10 pa tsamba. Ndinagwiritsa ntchito ndalama zanga zonse panthawiyo. Koma ndinapitirizabe kuchita zimenezi. Tony anandithandiza kwa mausiku angapo, ndipo ndinakhala ndekha.
Ndipo poyamba, kutenga sutikesi - kapena, chikwama, m'malo mwake, kuchokera mu - Pentagon Mapepala - kudutsa alonda kunali kovuta kwambiri. Zomwe anachita ndikupempha kuti atsegule chikwamacho, ndipo ine ndimakhala mu supu. Koma pamapeto pake ndidazolowera - sakundifunsa. Ndiye sanafunse zambiri za briefcase. Anthu amakono, ndikuganiza, samandithokoza chifukwa choti tsopano akuyenera kutsegula zikwama zawo.
Koma ndidawatulutsa, xerox usiku wonse, ndikuphatikiza zinthu, kupanga makope angapo a chilichonse, kuwabweretsanso m'mawa, kuti oweruza asakhulupirire, pamapeto pake - sichinali chifukwa chomwe ndidapangira, koma sikunali kulandidwa kwa eni ake chidziwitso chotere pochitenga. Zinangochitika usiku umodzi wokha, ndipo ndinali ndekha amene ndinaloledwa kuiwerenga panthawiyo, ngakhale kuti ndinali ndi mlandu wotembenuka ndi kuba, kwenikweni.
Kotero, izo zinapitirira, kwenikweni - Tony anakhala kasanu ndi kawiri kapena kasanu ndi katatu. Kenako anali kuchita zinthu zina. Ndipo ndidazichita ndekha kwazaka zambiri za chaka chamawa, ndikuzimitsa, chifukwa nthawi zonse ndimaganiza kuti mwayiwu ungakhale ndi zotsatirapo pankhondo. Itha mu 1968. Nkhondo, pansi pa Nixon, idayamba pansi pa '69. Iye akhoza kunena -
AMY GOODMAN: Mukutanthauza kuti lipotilo linatha mu '68.
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Pamapeto pa '68. Ndiyeno - pansi pa Johnson. Ndiyeno, Nixon sanaimbidwe mlandu konse. M'malo mwake, sanatchulidwe m'zaka za Eisenhower, modabwitsa. Koma kotero, anali wokondwa kukhala nawo kunja. Zomwe ankada nazo nkhawa ndi zomwe ndikanazitulutsa - ndipo anali ndi chifukwa chodera nkhawa zimenezo; chimenecho sichinali chongopeka chabe - kotero kuti adayesa kundiletsa kuti ndichite. Ndipo zimenezo zinatenga njira zosaloledwa m’masiku amenewo.
AMY GOODMAN: Kotero, ndikufuna kulumphira patsogolo ku 1973, chifukwa ndiye tiyenera kutero - ndikufuna kulankhula za kumasulidwa kwatsopano komwe kunasonyeza kuti tidatsala pang'ono kupita ku nkhondo ya nyukiliya mu 1958. Koma -
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Eya.
AMY GOODMAN: Ndipo chimenecho chinali Taiwan-China, chofunikira kwambiri tsopano, monga momwe Biden amapangira NATO kuwonekera pampando kenako amapita kukakumana ndi Putin. Koma ndimangofuna kutha ndi mlandu wa 1973 wa inu ndi Tony Russo ndi momwe zidathera pakuzengereza, mlandu womwe ungakupangitseni kukhala m'ndende moyo wanu wonse chifukwa cha chiwembu, monga - mukudziwa, ngati Julian Assange. anafika ku United States ndipo anakumana ndi mlandu. Koma pamapeto pake, kambiranani zomwe zinachitika, zomwe zidasokoneza izi.
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Eya, ndinayang’anizana ndi kukhala m’ndende kwa zaka 115. Assange, mwa njira, akuyang'anizana ndi 175. Koma zimabwera ku chinthu chomwecho. Zocheperapo kwa ine pakadali pano pomwe ndikukumana ndi milandu yofananira, chifukwa zomwe ndachita mwezi watha ndizosaneneka monga chilichonse chomwe Obama kapena Trump kapena Biden adadzudzula miyezi ingapo yapitayi.
Ndatulutsa zambiri zomwe zidasungidwa bwino, zomwe zimasungidwa kwa anthu aku America molakwika, pamlingo wapamwamba kwambiri, kapena gawo. Ndipo ine ndachita izo. Ine ndati, “Izo ziri. Tiyeni tiyese ngati ndi mlandu kutulutsidwa kwa chilichonse kapena zonse zachinsinsi, kapena zachinsinsi kapena zachinsinsi, ziribe kanthu kuti ndi liti - umu ndi momwe lamulo, lamulo lodziwika bwino, lachilamulo limakhalira. Tiyeni tiyese ngati lamulo limenelo likugwirizana ndi malamulo a dziko la United States of A. ndi First Amendment.” Mayiko ena ali ndi malamulo, kuphatikizapo Britain; iwo alibe Chikonzero Choyamba. Ndipo mwa njira zamphamvu, ngati Khoti Lalikulu Kwambiri linali nthawi yoyamba kuthana ndi nkhaniyi, ndizovuta kwambiri kuti apeze mawu okulirapo, omveka bwino a Constitution Yoyamba.
AMY GOODMAN: Ife tifika kwa izo. Koma mlanduwo unatha bwanji, unathera bwanji pa mlandu?
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Chabwino, zidatha, choyamba, chifukwa a John Dean adawululira kwa omwe akuzenga mlandu pa Epulo 17, pafupifupi tsiku lomwe Purezidenti adabwerera ku North Vietnam, adatumiza lamuloli - kenako adamva kuti John Dean wanena. adawulula kuphwanya ku ofesi yanga yakale ya psychoanalyst - ndipo, mwachiwonekere, zinali zoletsedwa panthawiyo, ngakhale tsopano, pambuyo pa 9/11, zitha kukhala zovomerezeka, koma ndiye zosaloledwa. Kenako mawu okhudza kujambulidwa kwa mawaya osaloledwa anatuluka, atamva za ine, zomwe akhala akuzikana kwa zaka ziwiri.
Pambuyo pake, mawu akuti pulezidenti - woweruza mwiniyo, Woweruza Matthew Byrne, adaperekedwa, panthawi ya mlandu, ndi pulezidenti kenako ndi John Ehrlichman - adapatsidwa udindo wa bungwe. FBI utsogoleri, womwe unali mumkhalidwe wosinthika panthawiyo, chinthu chomwe adachifuna moyo wake wonse. Titadziwa kuti pambuyo pake, zikutanthauza kuti nditaya. Iye sakanapeza ntchito imeneyo ngati akanandimasula pa milandu 12. Kotero, akanapereka malangizo omwe akanandipachika kwa zaka zingapo, kunena pang'ono. Izi zitatuluka, tinaganiza zotiimba mlandu, koma iye anakana, ponena kuti zimenezo sizinamukhudze ngakhale pang’ono, koma mopusa.
Koma mlandu unapitirira. Ndipo zinthu zina zidatuluka - kuyimba kwa waya kosaloledwa. Sanathe kupeza matepi, zolemba za ine osaloledwa ndi mawaya, chifukwa pulezidenti anali atawachotsa m'mafayilo achinsinsi a J. Edgar Hoover kupita ku mafayilo a White House, kumene sakanatha kuwapeza. Chotero iwo anakana kuti panalibe matepi oterowo. Amawopa, molondola, kuti Hoover adzagwiritsa ntchito zoletsedwa izi zomwe White House idalamula kuti awononge White House kuti alole Hoover kukhala.
Kotero, pamene pulezidenti - Pepani kupitiriza kunena zimenezo. Woweruza atanena kuti, “Chabwino, zochitika zonse pano zikukhumudwitsa chilungamo, zinthu zodabwitsa,” ndipo anachotsa milandu yonseyo mwatsankho, kutanthauza kuti sitingazengedwenso mlandu. Imeneyi inali nthawi yoyamba, ndikuganiza kuti mlandu wa boma unathetsedwa usanapite ku bwalo lamilandu pazifukwa zotere.
AMY GOODMAN: Dan Ellsberg, Pentagon Papers whistleblower extraordinaire, wolemba wa Njira ya Doomsday: Confessions ya Nuclear War Planner ndi Zinsinsi: Chikumbutso cha Vietnam ndi Paper Pentagon.
Tikabweranso, timayang'ana kutayikira kwaposachedwa. Ndiko kulondola, chikalata chinsinsi iye anaulula kusonyeza US ankaona kuukira China ndi zida nyukiliya mu 1958. Iye ali wokonzeka kupita kundende chifukwa cha kutayikira posachedwapa. Khalani nafe.
AMY GOODMAN: izi ndi Demokarase Tsopano! Ndine Amy Goodman.
Sabata ino ndi chikumbutso cha zaka 50 kuyambira pamenepo The New York Times adafalitsa nkhani zoyamba za Pentagon Papers, zomwe zidatsitsidwa ndi mlendo wathu, woimba mluzu wodziwika Dan Ellsberg. Mwezi watha, adapanganso mitu yankhani atagawana nawo chikalata chachinsinsi kwambiri The New York Times kuwulula kuti asitikali aku US ku 1958 adakakamiza Purezidenti Dwight Eisenhower kuti akonzekere kumenya nkhondo yoyamba ya nyukiliya ku China panthawi yamavuto aku Taiwan Strait. Chikalatacho chikuwonetsa kuti okonza zankhondo aku US anali okonzeka kuvomereza chiwopsezo chakuti panthawi yomwe Soviet Union idzayambitsa kubwezera kwawo kwa nyukiliya m'malo mwa mnzake waku China komanso kuti anthu mamiliyoni ambiri adzafa.
Dan, kodi mungalankhule za chikalatachi ndi chifukwa chiyani mwaganiza zochitulutsa, patatha zaka zambiri chilembedwe? Ndipo tanthauzo lake lero? Zikadakhala kuti zidapita kunkhondo yanyukiliya mu 1958. Ngati tidafika pano, zikutanthauza chiyani, Purezidenti Biden akukweza mawu otsutsana ndi China ndi Russia, pomwe akupita, ulendo wake woyamba wapadziko lonse lapansi, kuchokera. NATO kupita ku nsonga ndi Putin?
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Zinali zoonekeratu, ngakhale mu 1958, kuti kuteteza miyala ingapo yokhala ndi dziko la China Chiang Kai-shek kukakamiza mtunda wa kilomita imodzi kuchokera kumtunda - Quemoy ndi Matsu - akhoza kutetezedwa, ngati ayi, ndi US kuyambitsa nkhondo ya nyukiliya. China. Ndipo komabe, Purezidenti ndi Atsogoleri Ogwirizana onse adagwirizana kuti ngati aku China akakakamira kuwukira kwawo, kutsekereza kwawo kwa Quemoy, tikanayenera kugwiritsa ntchito zida zanyukiliya ku China, ndikuti izi zitsogolera, amaganiza moyenerera kapena molakwika - Ndikuganiza, molakwika - koma amaganiza kuti Soviet Union iyankha, kuwononga Taiwan. Zaka khumi pambuyo pake, tinamva za kuwononga tauni kuti tipulumutse: Ben Tre ku South Vietnam. Chabwino, tiwononga Quemoy ndi Taiwan kuti tipulumutse kwa chikominisi mu '58. Ndipo posachedwa, zikuwoneka, anthu akulankhula motero.
A Japan anali asanauzidwe kuti a Soviet angayankhedi motsutsana ndi Japan, komanso Okinawa ndi Guam, kumene tinali ndi maziko. Tinalinso ndi maziko ku Japan. Ndipo sindikuganiza kuti anali kudziwa za ngozi yomwe tinkachita m'dzina lawo chifukwa cha iwo panthawiyo.
Chifukwa chake, pakabuka vuto - tsopano, iyi nthawi zambiri si pulogalamu yongotulutsa nkhani. Ndiwulula nkhani pang'ono pano, zomwe sindinagawane ndi Charlie Savage, yemwe adachita ntchito yabwino pofotokoza nkhaniyi momveka bwino. The New York Times omaliza Meyi 22nd. Anangochita zodabwitsa. Koma sindinkafuna kumusankha kuti asanene zimenezo, za momwe tidayandikira ku nkhondo ya nyukiliya mu '58, monga momwe tikuchitira tsopano. Ndikadamuuza kapena kumuuza kuti ndidapereka maphunziro athunthu omwewo, chinsinsi chapamwamba, kwa wakale Times munthu, wotchuka kwambiri, wodabwitsa, Tom Wicker, yemwe, pazifukwa zosadziwika kwa ine, adasankha kuti asasindikize, kuti asachite kalikonse ndi izo - sanafune kukhumudwitsa Charlie ndi chitsanzo chimenecho.
Kuphatikiza apo, ndidapereka phunziro lonse ku Japan Diet, yomwe idamasulira m'Chijapani, kugawikana, monga m'masiku awiri, ndi kuthekera kwawo kwanyumba yamalamulo. Ndipo zinatha ku Japan, sizinatchulidwe konse ku US Zidzakhala zosangalatsa, pamene andiyesa izi, momwe amafotokozera chifukwa chake sanavutike kundiimba mlandu chifukwa cha kumasulidwa kwachinsinsi zaka 40 zapitazo. Koma umo ndi momwe amachitira. Iwo amachita izo pamene izo ziri zothandiza kwa iwo, kapena ayi.
Chifukwa chomwe ndidachitiranso tsopano ndikuti tsopano tikukumananso ndi kuthekera, mwachangu kwambiri, kuyambitsa nkhondo ndi Japan, zomwe zidzadzetsanso vuto ngati titha kuteteza motsutsana ndi achi China omwe ali ndi zida zatsopano popanda kugwiritsa ntchito zida za nyukiliya.
Ndiloleni ndilosere, zomwe ndikukhulupirira kuti ndi zabodza. Anthu ambiri akulangiza Truman - ndikhululukireni chifukwa chonena izi; Ndibwereranso. Anthu ambiri akulangiza a Biden kuti alengeze kugwiritsa ntchito koyamba, pamodzi ndi a Putin, pamsonkhano womwe ukubwera, kuti ngakhale, mwanjira ina iliyonse, sadzayambitsa nkhondo yanyukiliya pazifukwa zilizonse, ngakhale Taiwan. Zimenezo sichina koma kuti n’zanzeru. Kumeneko ndi kuganiza mwanzeru. Kuyambitsa nkhondo ya nyukiliya kumatanthauza kuwonongedwa kwa Taiwan ndipo mwinamwake kuwonongedwa kwa anthu ambiri, kuphatikizapo Japan. Kuneneratu kwanga ndikuti sanena zimenezo. Ndipo ine ndikuti ndikuyembekeza kuti ndikulakwitsa. Koma ndikhulupilira kuti anthu amulimbikisa ndipo amvera.
Ndikuganiza kuti sadzasiya kuwopseza kotsimikizika, kuwopseza kowonekera patebulo, kuyambitsa nkhondo ndikuyembekeza kuti izi zilepheretsa. Ndipo izo zikhoza kulepheretsa, kapena ayi. Tikuyang'anizana ndi Prime Minister Xi yemwe akuwopa kuti angachotsedwe udindo ngati avomereza udindo womwe anthu ambiri aku America akulimbikitsa anthu aku Taiwan kuti atengere, ndiko kulengeza ufulu wodziyimira pawokha kuchokera kudziko lomwe mpaka zaka za zana lino, kupyola zaka zana zapitazi, Chitchaina chilichonse chovomerezeka chinali gawo la China, kudzipatula ngati mayiko 11 a Confederate, omwe kudzipatula kwawo sikunakomeredwe ndi purezidenti panthawiyo.
Sitiyenera kuyambitsa nkhondo ya nyukiliya, m'malingaliro anga. Koma ine sindiri mu chisankho. Ndikuganiza kuti Achimereka ndi Achijapani ndi Taiwanese ayenera kukhala ndi mwayi wonse wofufuza momwe maganizo awo amabweretsedwera mobisa za tsogolo lawo. Kuganiza mopenga.
AMY GOODMAN: Dan - Dan, tili ndi -
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Kuganiza mopenga.
AMY GOODMAN: Tangotsala ndi miniti yokha, koma ndikufuna ndikufunseni komaliza - za mutu wankhani, kenako tipanga pambuyo pawonetsero pa oimba mluzu ena, monga Daniel Hale, watsala pang'ono kuweruzidwa, Julian Assange, Ed Snowden. Koma Attorney General Merrick Garland akukumana lero ndi akuluakulu a CNN, The New York Times ndi The Washington Post kuzungulira mavumbulutso omwe adawazonda ndi Purezidenti Trump, kuti atolankhani awo akuyang'aniridwa, imelo yawo idafunsidwa, kuti olamulira a Trump adafunafuna mobisa maimelo ndi ma foni kuchokera kwa atolankhani awo. Merrick Garland adauza opanga malamulo kuti aziyika patsogolo kafukufukuyu, komabe, nthawi yomweyo, adati, kutulutsa misonkho yayikulu kunyuzipepala ya ProPublica. Koma kodi muli ndi uthenga wotani kwa atolankhani pa nthawi ya chipwirikitiyi? Ndipo tsopano oyang'anira a Biden ati satsatira atolankhani. Tili ndi masekondi 30.
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Ine ndikuganiza—ine ndithudi ndatsogozedwa, kuposa pafupifupi aliyense, kuyamikira kufunikira kwa Chisinthiko Chathu Choyamba, Chisinthiko Chathu Chapadera Choyambirira, chitetezo cha ufulu wa atolankhani, ufulu wa maganizo mu izi. Simungakhale ndi demokalase popanda izo. Ndipo osati pano pokha pomwe olamulira a Trump, omwe tsopano oyang'anira Biden, akugwiritsa ntchito Espionage Act motsutsana ndi mtolankhani - palibe ufulu wa atolankhani womwe ukukhudzidwa pamenepo - ndikunena za Julian Assange. Biden akuyenera kusiya pempho lomwe adapanga, lomwe a Trump adayambitsa, kuti achotse Julian Assange. Ayenera kusiya mlandu wa Daniel Hale.
AMY GOODMAN: Tizisiya pamenepo, koma tipitiliza kukambirana pambuyo pawonetsero. Dan Ellsberg, Pentagon Papers whistleblower. Onani democracynow.org. Zaka makumi asanu zapitazo, ndilo deti. Ndine Amy Goodman.
AMY GOODMAN: izi ndi Demokarase Tsopano!, democracynow.org. Ndine Amy Goodman, pamene tikukubweretserani Gawo 2 la zokambirana zathu ndi woimba miluzi Dan Ellsberg. Sabata ino ndi tsiku lokumbukira zaka 50 kutulutsidwa kwa Pentagon Papers, lofalitsidwa ndi The New York Times. Dan Ellsberg adakwanitsa zaka 90 mu Epulo. Pazaka makumi asanu zapitazi, wakhala akutsutsa kwambiri zankhondo zaku US ndi mfundo za zida za nyukiliya zaku US, komanso woyimira wodziwika bwino kuti anthu ena azidziwitso abwere ndikutulutsa zikalata zomwe ali nazo.
Ndikufuna ndikufunseni, Dan, za dipatimenti ya US State yomwe ikufunabe kutulutsa woyambitsa WikiLeaks a Julian Assange waku Britain, komwe adatsekeredwa kwazaka zopitilira ziwiri. Ndiye atamutulutsa mu Embassy ya Ecuador ku London, komwe anali kuthawira. Anapatsidwa chitetezo cha ndale ndipo anali kumeneko zaka zambiri izi zisanachitike. Woweruza waku Britain adaletsa kutulutsidwa kwa Assange mu Januware, ponena za nkhawa zazikulu zamaganizidwe - nkhawa, mwachitsanzo, kudzipha. Julian Assange anaimbidwa mlandu kuno ku United States chifukwa chophwanya lamulo la Espionage Act lokhudzana ndi kufalitsa zikalata zachinsinsi zowulula milandu yankhondo yaku US. Akakhala m'ndende zaka 175 ngati atabweretsedwa ku United States. Ndikufunsani za Daniel Hale komanso Edward Snowden. Koma tiyeni tiyambe ndi Julian Assange. Ena anena, pamene zaka zinkapita ndipo mudalandiridwa kwambiri ngati woimba mluzu ndi omwe adakutsutsani m'mbuyomu, "Chabwino, Julian Assange si Dan Ellsberg." Kodi yankho lanu ndi lotani?
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Ndinazindikira kuti Julian Assange anali wokulirapo wosiyana, umunthu wosiyana, wa msinkhu wosiyana. Ndidalumikizana naye kwambiri, ngakhale kuti gawo lake silinali lachidziwitso kapena woimba mluzu, koma wofalitsa, koma wofalitsa wodzipereka kwambiri kuposa ena kuposa momwe ndidachitira nawo. Ndimadziwika ndi Chelsea Manning ndi Ed Snowden, omwe, ndi anthu osiyana kwambiri komanso osiyana ndi ine. Ndimadana nawo kwambiri kuposa aliyense. Tadutsa munjira yofanana yokhumudwitsidwa ndi chisankho chofanana cha choti tichite, ndipo ndikumva kukhala woyandikana nawo kwambiri.
Koma ndidakondanso Assange nditakumana naye, ndikusilira zomwe akuchita, zomwe zinali kutulutsa zipika za Afghan ndi nkhondo, Zipika Zankhondo za Iraq ndi kanema wa "Collateral Murder". Ndipo ndinasilira kwambiri zomwe anali kuchita. Iye anali kutenga, kwenikweni, maboma onse, omwe onse amasunga zinsinsi, zambiri, zambiri kuposa momwe ziyenera kukhalira, kwa anthu awo ndi dziko lapansi. Ndipo zinanenedweratu kuti maulamuliro a dziko lapansi adzalumikizana m’njira kuti atsikire pa iye. N'chimodzimodzinso ndi Snowden, makamaka, ngakhale ku Chelsea ndi mavumbulutso aakulu omwe adapanga. Chifukwa chake, ngati Kissinger amandiwona ngati munthu wowopsa kwambiri padziko lapansi - ku America, m'malo mwake, ndikutsimikiza kuti anthu ambiri amawona Snowden ndi Assange ngati amuna owopsa kwambiri padziko lapansi. Choncho, -
AMY GOODMAN: Chabwino, ndikutanthauza, sitiyenera kulankhula za Henry Kissinger; titha kulankhula za Purezidenti waku United States pompano, a Joe Biden.
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Eya.
AMY GOODMAN: Sitikunena za Lipenga apa; tikulankhula za Biden. Pamene anali wachiwiri kwa pulezidenti, adatcha Julian Assange "chigawenga chapamwamba kwambiri." Panopa Julian wakanidwa belo, choncho sangatuluke. Chifukwa chokhacho chomwe ali m'ndende pakali pano, m'ndende ya Belmarsh yachitetezo chapamwamba ku London, ndi chifukwa chopempha kuti abweretsedwe ku United States ndikuzengedwa mlandu womwewo womwe munazengedwa pansi, mchitidwe woukira boma.
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Sichiwembu. Ndi lamulo lokonzedwa - kuukira boma kumafotokozedwa mu Constitution. Ndilo mlandu wokhawo womwe umafotokozedwa mu Constitution. Ndipo palibe aliyense wa ife amene anaimbidwa mlandu woukira boma, zomwe zingakhale zopanda pake, chifukwa chimodzi mwazofunikira, zomwe zidapangidwa mwadala kwambiri m'dziko lathu kuyambira pomwe dziko lathu lidakhazikitsidwa ndi achiwembu - aliyense amene adasaina Chikalata Chodziyimira pawokha anali oyenera. akuimbidwa mlandu ndi kupachikidwa ndi ulamuliro wawo wakale, Ufumu wa Britain. Ndipo -
AMY GOODMAN: Ndiyenera kunena, Espionage Act.
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Inde, Espionage Act. Apanso, izo zinapangidwira Espionage Act. Silimapereka tsatanetsatane kwa oweruza kuti chifukwa chiyani munachita zomwe munachita kapena zotsatira zake. Zinangotengedwa mopepuka kuti - ndi zomwe amatcha lamulo lokhwima, kuti kungochita ipso facto chigawenga. Ndipo momwe akugwiritsidwira ntchito sizikudziwika tsopano, ndi mlandu wa Assange, wochokera ku British-type Official Secrets Act, yomwe imapangitsa kuti zidziwitso zonse zomwe boma lasankha kuzilemba ndi zolakwa. Ife sitinakhalepo ndi lamulo loterolo. Congress nthawi zambiri imalimbikitsa ndipo sanavoterepo, kupatulapo chimodzi. Iwo adachitadi, ndi voti ya mawu, monga kusintha kwa 2000. Ndipo Clinton adatsutsa pazifukwa zovomerezeka.
Chifukwa chake sichinapite ku Khothi Lalikulu konse, sichinayesedwe konse. Ichi ndichifukwa chake ndikunena kuti ngati asankha kunditsutsa - ndipo ali ndi zifukwa zabwino, ndendende, zonditsutsa ngati aliyense wa omwe anditsutsa - ndipo ngati asankha kutero, padzakhala palibe kudandaula pa mlandu wanga. Ndipo ndiyesetsa kuti nditengere ku Khoti Lalikulu, lomwe lingakane, monga momwe adachitira kale, koma, mulimonse, kuwakakamiza kuti ayang'anire ngati lamulo loterolo, lomwe likugwiritsidwa ntchito, likhoza kuganiziridwa. monga n'zogwirizana ndi First Amendment, yomwe imati palibe lamulo lomwe lidzaperekedwe kuchepetsa ufulu wa kulankhula kapena ufulu wa atolankhani. Tsopano, Assange ndiye mtolankhani woyamba kuyesedwa. Ndipo ndichifukwa chake ndikuganiza kuti atolankhani sanamvere kwenikweni mfuti yodzaza iyi yomwe inali kuwalozera kwa zaka 50 zapitazi. Mawu omveka bwino amawalola kuti aziimbidwa mlandu. Ndipo monga ndikunena, funso lomwe silinayankhidwe ndilakuti: Kodi izi zingagwirizane bwanji ndi Kusintha Koyamba? Yankho silingathe.
Monga mukunenera, a Biden ndi m'modzi yemwe amamuwona ngati chigawenga kuyambira pachiyambi, mmbuyo mu 2010, pomwe Chelsea Manning anali gwero lake lalikulu lazinthuzo. Koma ndiye, a Trump - oyang'anira a Obama, momwe a Biden adakhalapo ngati wachiwiri kwa purezidenti, adaganiza zotsutsa Assange ndipo adasankha kuti asachite izi, chifukwa - zifukwa zomveka ndizakuti muyenera kuyimba mlandu. The New York Times, amene anali atasindikiza nkhani zake, mofanana ndi iyeyo. Zimenezo zingakhale zochititsa manyazi. Koma zingakhale zoposa zochititsa manyazi; kungasunge kupanda nzeru ndi kusaloleka kwa kugwiritsira ntchito chinenero chosavuta kutsutsa munthu amene akufalitsa nkhani zoterozo.
Biden akanayenera ndipo akanangosiya kudandaulako. Koma pamene woweruza, monga mukunenera, Woweruza Baraitser, anakana kumuimba mlandu, chifukwa cha chiwopsezo cha thanzi chomwe angakumane nacho ngati atatumizidwa - amakhala, pambuyo pake, ali ndi Official Secrets Act. Mwachionekere akanaphwanya zimenezo. Ndikanaphwanya izi momveka bwino, tikadakhala komweko. Chifukwa chake mwina sanasangalale ndi kusiyana kwa malamulo aku America. Koma iye anakana kumuimba mlandu - kumuchotsa.
Trump, pafupifupi tsiku lake lomaliza paudindo, ndikuganiza pa Julayi - Juni - Januware 17, adapemphadi kuti Assange atulutsidwe. Ndipo a Trump - pomwe a Trump adachoka paudindo panthawiyo - ndipo amadzinenerabe kuti ndi purezidenti - koma a Biden akadatha kusiya apilo. Iye akanakhozabe kuchita izo, ndipo iye akanayenera kuti azichitabe izo. Koma ofisala wocheperako mu Dipatimenti Yachilungamo, yemwe akugwira ntchito ndi a Trump, adangokonzanso apilo. Icho chinali chinthu cholakwika kuchita, chosagwirizana ndi malamulo, ndipo Biden adatha ndipo ayenera kusiya izo. Komabe, sizowona - sizokayikitsa - kuti angachite izi, chifukwa cha malingaliro ake osasamala mu 2010, pomwe adamutcha "chigawenga chaukadaulo wapamwamba." Zomwezo zimagwiranso ntchito, mwa njira, kufunafuna Daniel Hale ndi Reality Winner, yemwe ali m'ndende tsopano.
AMY GOODMAN: Chifukwa chake, tiyeni tikambirane za Daniel Hale ndi Reality Winner, woyamba Daniel Hale. Katswiri wakale waukadaulo waku US Daniel Hale adamangidwa mosayembekezereka ndikutsekeredwa m'ndende asanapereke chigamulo chake, chomwe chikuyenera kuchitika pa Julayi 13th. M'mwezi wa Marichi, adavomera mlandu umodzi wophwanya lamulo la Espionage Act ya Nkhondo Yadziko Lonse chifukwa chotulutsa zikalata zachinsinsi za drone yaku US komanso mapulogalamu opha anthu. Mwezi watha, I anafunsa National Security Agency whistleblower Edward Snowden ndikumufunsa za Daniel Hale.
EDWARD SNOWDEN: Daniel Hale ndi m'modzi mwa akatswiri oimba mluzu. Anapereka chilichonse - munthu wolimba mtima kwambiri - kutiuza kuti nkhondo ya drone, yomwe, mukudziwa, ikuchitika kwa wina aliyense, koma boma likukanabe mwalamulo m'njira zambiri, liri pano, zikuchitika, ndipo 90% ya ovulala m'miyezi isanu imodzi anali osalakwa kapena oimirira kapena osakhala chandamale cha kumenyedwa kwa drone. Sitinathe kutsimikizira izi, sitingathe kutsimikizira izi, popanda mawu a Daniel Hale.
AMY GOODMAN: Ndiye, ndiye Edward Snowden. Ndipo timalankhula - ndimamufunsa iye ndi inu pagulu lomwe ndidawongolera. Kutengera kwanu kwa Daniel Hale, adachita chiyani?
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Ndikuganiza kuti zomwe anachita zinali zabwino kwambiri. Ndipo sikunali kungopereka zikalata zina kapena chidziwitso, koma kupitiriza, monga momwe ayenera, kampeni yolimbana ndi kupha kwa ndawalayi. Anachita zinthu mogometsa kwambiri, m’njira imene akuluakulu ochepa kwambiri achitapo posonyeza kulimba mtima kwa makhalidwe abwino kuti adzilekanitse ndi zochita zaupandu ndi zochita zosayenera za ulamuliro wawo, ndi kuwakaniza, komanso kuwaulula. Choncho, ndinganene kuti iye ndi munthu wosiririka makamaka amene sayenera kuikidwa m’ndende chifukwa cha zimenezi.
Tidatchulanso Reality Winner, yemwe adatulutsa mpweya womwe sayenera kukhala m'ndende. Ndipo izi ndi - makamaka, izi ndi zoona kwa anthu onse omwe akutsutsidwa. Palibe ndi mmodzi yemwe amene adakhalapo ndi mwayi wozengedwa mlandu mwachilungamo, popeza sangathe n’komwe kuuza khoti kapena oweruza chifukwa chimene anachitira zimene anachita. Sindinaloledwe kutero ine ndekha, kubwereranso koyambirira kwa milanduyi. Koma m’mawu ena, oweruza saloledwa kukhala m’malo mwachilungamo kuti aweruze mtundu wa mchitidwe umene unachitidwa ndi chifukwa chake unachitikira. Koma kupitilira apo, sayenera kuimbidwa mlandu pazochitikazi poyambirira ndipo akuyenera kudzilungamitsa mpaka pamenepo, popeza amawulula zomwe zidabisidwa molakwika [zosamveka] kwa anthu.
AMY GOODMAN: Banja la Reality Winner - adamangidwa mu 2017, adasungidwa m'ndende kwa chaka chopitilira, kenako, mu June 2018, adavomera mlandu wopereka zidziwitso zachitetezo cha dziko popanda chilolezo kuti amasulidwe. The Intercept zambiri zakusokoneza kwa Russia pachisankho cha 2016. Analamulidwa kukhala m’ndende zaka zisanu. Anatero The New York Times — ozenga milandu anauza The New York Times kuti Reality Winner adalandira chigamulo chotalika kwambiri chomwe khothi lamilandu lidaperekedwa chifukwa chowululira mosaloledwa zambiri zaboma kwa atolankhani. Anaweruzidwanso pansi pa Espionage Act, Dan.
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Inde, komanso, mwa njira, Chelsea Manning adalandira chilango chotalikirapo, koma adachokera ku khoti la asilikali. Ndiye ndikuganiza kusiyana kwake kuli bwalo lamilandu pano. Chelsea idakhala zaka zisanu ndi ziwiri ndi theka m'ndende, zambiri za izo m'ndende yayekha. Koma -
AMY GOODMAN: Ndipo chochititsa chidwi, anali Purezidenti Biden - ndikutanthauza, anali Purezidenti Obama, mukudziwa, Biden ngati wachiwiri kwa purezidenti, yemwe adasinthiratu chigamulocho ndikumumasula.
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Kuvomereza kuti anayenera kuchita zaka zapitazo. Koma, mwa njira, chinthu chimodzi chomwe chimandipangitsa kukhala kosavuta kuti ndisiye njirayi ndikuti ndili ndi zaka 90, ndipo ndikusangalala kukhala ndi moyo nthawi yayitali chonchi. Koma ziganizo zazitali zosazolowereka zilibe tanthauzo lofanana kwa ine ndi momwe amachitira achinyamata. M’milandu yawo, kuwakakamiza kuti avomereze chilango chocheperapo ndi kuchonderera chigamulo, chimene chimathetsa apilo pa chinthucho, n’champhamvu kwambiri. Kuthekera kwakuti popanda kutha kuwuza oweruza chitetezo chawo pazachitetezo cha anthu, iwo amangowononga ndalama zambiri ndikulandira chilango chotalikirapo ngati angazengedwe mlandu, kumapangitsa ambiri a iwo kuyidula bwino chinthucho chisanapite kukadandaula. Khoti la suprimu. Kwa ine, ndilibe chondilimbikitsa kuchita zimenezo.
AMY GOODMAN: Kubwerera pa a Julian Assange, dipatimenti ya Zachilungamo ku Biden ndi Biden mwiniwake adalonjeza kuti sadzatsata atolankhani. Izi ndizomwe zidawululidwa kuti olamulira a Trump akufunafuna imelo ndi mauthenga ena a atolankhani angapo - Barbara Starr pa CNN, atolankhani ku The New York Times, komanso ku The Washington Post. Koma panthawi imodzimodziyo, muli ndi Merrick Garland, loya wamkulu, akunena kuti adzatsata munthu amene adatulutsa chidziwitso ku ProPublica za misonkho ya olemera kwambiri, chifukwa chakuti samalipira misonkho mdziko muno. Kodi mungalankhule zomwe mukuganiza kuti ziyenera kuchitika, momwe mumaganizira omwe ali m'boma - mudali m'boma; mudagwira ntchito ku Pentagon - zotsatira za kukakamizidwa kwa omwe ali m'maboma apamwamba? Ndipo apa ndipamene ndikufuna kuti ndiyambe kutsiriza zokambiranazi, ndikutanthauza, momwe mudakhudzidwira ndi zionetsero kunja kwa Pentagon, pamene mudali mkati, mukuwona iwo omwe anali okonzeka kukokera kundende, mtundu wa kayendetsedwe ka kayendetsedwe kake. pa iwo omwe ali ndi mphamvu, mpaka Purezidenti wa United States.
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Sizikanatheka kuti ndichite chinthu chomwe chingachite chimodzi mwazinthu ziwiri, zomwe zinganditayitse kulumikizana kwanga ngati munthu wa purezidenti, popeza wina angaganize kuti ndimagwira ntchito yachitetezo cha dziko mwa Purezidenti ndikuthandizira. iye kuti—kapena, tsiku lina, iye—achite chimodzimodzi chimene iye ankafuna kuti achite, chirichonse chimene icho chinali. Ndipo ndi zomwe Egil Krogh, bambo yemwe amayenera kundilepheretsa kukhala a Plumbers, adanena m'mawu ake olakwa, kusintha kwake, momwe amaganizira kuti athandize purezidenti kukhala womasuka kuchita chilichonse chomwe akuganiza kuti chinali chothandiza. chitetezo cha dziko chinali, kwa iye, chiyambi cha chitetezo cha dziko. Tsopano, siziyenera kukhala choncho mu demokalase. Ndizowona m'mayiko ena kumene lumbiro la kukhulupirika liri kwa Führer, kwa mtsogoleri, kwa pulezidenti, kwathunthu, monga momwe anthu ambiri m'dziko lino amachitira, popanda kuzindikira kuti ali ndi mwayi wotani kuti lumbiro lawo m'dziko lino ndi ku Constitution ya United States, yomwe ili ndi zosintha zomwe zimafuna ufulu wa atolankhani. [osamveka] -
AMY GOODMAN: Ndipo ndikungofuna kusokoneza kwa sekondi imodzi, chifukwa mkati Part 1 mudanenapo za kusalowerera ndale kwanuko ndi asitikali omwe adalembedwa ganyu kuti apite ku Bay of Pigs ku Cuba, kukaukira Cuba. Mukutanthauza chiyani ponena kuti "neutralize"? Kodi ndi zochitika zotani zomwe zinawululidwa pomalizira pake?
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Zingaphatikizepo chilichonse, kuphatikizanso kusalidwa kuti munthuyo asamvedwe chifukwa ndi wopusa kapena woyipa kwambiri kapena wosadalirika, koma zidapitilira mpaka kundilepheretsa mphamvu, zomwe, monga wosuma mlandu wawo amamvera, zikutanthauza kundipha. . Ine kwenikweni sindiri wotsimikiza izo zinkatanthauza zimenezo. Ndikuganiza kuti purezidenti anali wofunitsitsa kuti nditseke kumapeto kwa sabata lomwelo, pamene ankafuna kuti apite ku Haiphong, zomwe ndinkalosera, zomwe ndimaganiza kuti zingamupangitse kuti azimenyana ndi zombo za Soviet ndipo zingachititse kuti B-52 iphulike. Hanoi, zonse zomwe zidachita. Ndipo ankafuna kuti ndikhale chete pa weekend imeneyo. Ndikuganiza kuti cholinga chawo chenicheni chinali kundithyola nsagwada kapena kundigoneka m’chipatala, m’njira yoti ndisawasokoneze. Monga momwe mmodzi wa iwo anavomereza, Bernie Barker, iye anati: “Ntchito yanga inali kuthyola miyendo yake yonse.” Izi zinali choncho. Lamuloli tsopano lili mu Oval Office ya Purezidenti.
Ndipo ndicho chinthu chimodzi chimene sichinalungamitsidwe mwalamulo. Zolakwa zina zonse zomwe zidandichitikira, monga ma waya opanda zingwe kapena kulowa muofesi ya psychoanalyst, tsopano, kuyambira 9/11, zakhala zovomerezeka pamalamulo, ngakhale sizinayesedwe malinga ndi malamulo. Ine ndiwafunsa onse a iwo. Koma chomwe sichinakhalepo pamalamulo ndikuti pulezidenti azingowukira, kulephera, kupha anthu ena, monga momwe Purezidenti Obama adachitira, mwachitsanzo, ndi nzika ya US Anwar al-Awlaki ndi mwana wake wamwamuna wazaka 16. masabata angapo pambuyo pake, pakuwukira kwamtundu wamtundu womwe Daniel Hale wakhala akuwulula, kuwulula. Apanso, kupha nzika yaku America popanda njira yoyenera, popanda woweruza aliyense, oweruza, umboni wa mboni, china chilichonse, monga zochitika zanthawi zonse za apurezidenti, kuti izi sizinatsutsidwe, kwenikweni, ngakhale sizinaphatikizidwepo. lamulo, monga wiretapping popanda chilolezo kapena kuyang'anira, silingapange kukhala lovomerezeka kapena lovomerezeka kapena labwino. Ndipo komabe zikuyenda popanda chopinga. Ndipo izi zimapangitsa kukhala gawo la zomwe ife tiri ndi zomwe timachita. Izo ziyenera kusintha.
AMY GOODMAN: Pomaliza, kodi muli ndi uthenga wotani kwa anthu m’dziko muno? Mwangowulula zatsopano zomwe zikanayambitsa kuukira kwa nyukiliya pakati pa United States ndi China kuzungulira Taiwan. Koma nthawi zambiri mumayitana, kwa zaka zambiri, kuti anthu atulutse zambiri za Iran ndi mapulani, mapulani a nyukiliya a United States ndi Iran ndi ena. Ndani ayenera - ndani ayenera kukhala oyimbira mluzu? Ndipo mukuwapempha kuti achite chiyani?
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Aliyense m'boma, ngati atakhala kwa miyezi kapena zaka, akudziwa za kunama kwakukulu komwe kumachitidwa kwa omvera amodzi kapena ena za zomwe ndondomeko yathu ili kapena kumene ikupita, ndalama zake ndi zotani. cholinga chenicheni ndi, zomwe zokonda zenizeni zomwe zimakhudzidwa nawo ndi. Pafupifupi zonse zomwe boma likunena, akutero IF Stone, akusocheretsa pazifukwa zoyenera. Ndipo umo ndi momwe zakhalira nthawizonse mu boma ndi boma lirilonse, ndipo mwinamwake nthawizonse zidzakhala ziri. Zilango zonena zoona zomwe abwana anu sakufuna kunena, kapena bungwe lanu kapena pulezidenti wanu sakufuna kuuzidwa, zikhoza kukhala zabwino kwambiri. Ndipo kotero, simungangoganiza, “Ndinena zoona. Ndidzaulula bodza lililonse.” Ngati simungapirire kukhala gawo la mabodza, simungapirire kukhala mu boma, kapena bungwe lina lililonse lalikulu, motalika kwambiri.
Koma funso n’lakuti mabodzawo amanena za chiyani. Ndipo pamene - izi zinali zoona ndi Pentagon Papers komanso ndi chidziwitso chatsopano chokhudza nkhondo ya nyukiliya yomwe ingatheke. Pamene funso liri loti miyoyo yambiri ili pachiwopsezo, monga momwe zilili mu izi, ndiye kuti anthu ayenera kuyitanitsa kuthekera kwawo kwa kulimba mtima kwamakhalidwe, zomwe zikutanthauza kufunitsitsa kwawo kulangidwa, kuyika pachiwopsezo cha chilango, ndi anthu omwe sakufuna kuti achite. kunena zimenezo, kapena kusalidwa ndi ena amene amawaona ngati achiwembu, ngakhale atakhala kuti sanatchulidwe choncho ku America.
Chifukwa chake, zomwe ndikuwauza ndikuti asachite zomwe ndidachita. Osachita zomwe ndidachita mu 71, kudikirira mpaka mabomba agwa kapena anthu ambiri aphedwa. Mukakhala ndi chidziwitso chomwe chimawulula kuti izi zili m'ntchito, kuti zitha kuchitika, ndipo sizingachitike ngati mutaulula zowona za izi, muzochitika zimenezo, ndimawauza kuti: Lingalirani kuchita zomwe ndikanakonda ndikadachita mu 1964 m'malo mwa '69 kapena' 71, ndikupita ku atolankhani, ndikupita komanso, mwa njira zachinsinsi zomwe zikuchulukirachulukira, khalani osadziwika, ngati n'kotheka, pitani ku Congress nawonso, momwemonso, ndikuwulula zomwe zingachitike. Chitani ichi, zilizonse zomwe zingawononge moyo wanu, lingalirani kuchita, chifukwa moyo wankhondo ungakhale pachiwopsezo.
AMY GOODMAN: Ndipo potsiriza, Edward Snowden, yemwe tangochita nawo msonkhano wapagulu, msonkhano wa anthu onse, ndi inu ku California, iye ku Russia, komwe ali ndi chitetezo cha ndale, osati chifukwa ankachifuna kumeneko, koma chifukwa US inakoka pasipoti yake pambuyo pake. adawulula zomwe zidachitika NSA zinali kuchita, za boma kuti lizizonda anthu aku America. Mukulangiza Purezidenti Biden kuti achite chiyani zikafika kwa Ed Snowden, yemwe akuti ngati abwerera mdziko muno, sakanaweruzidwa mwachilungamo, koma akufuna kubwerera?
DANIELI ELLSBERG: N’zoonadi kuti sanazengedwe mlandu mwachilungamo, monganso ine sindinaweruzidwe. Ndinamasulidwa ndi zochitika pafupifupi zozizwitsa, kuchokera kwa woweruza yemwe anapatsidwa chiphuphu ndi pulezidenti kuti andipeze wolakwa mwanjira ina. Ena sangadalire kuthaŵa kwanga mozizwitsa m’ndende monga momwe kukuwakhudzira iwo. Kotero ichi sichinthu chomwe mumachita mopepuka, ndikutsata njira iyi.
Ena, Ed Snowden, pano akudzudzula moyo wawo wonse ku ukapolo; Chelsea Manning, zaka zisanu ndi ziwiri ndi theka m'ndende; Mordechai Vanunu ku Israel, ali ndi zaka 11 ndi theka m'ndende yayekha, pazaka 17 zomwe adakhalapo powulula pulogalamu yawo ya nyukiliya. Muzochitika zonsezi - choyamba, izi siziyenera kuchitika. Ayenera kukhala aufulu. Koma chachiwiri, pali kuthekera kwa Congress kusintha lamulo, zomwe ziyenera kuchitika.
Kwenikweni, Tulsi Gabbard ndi Ro Khanna onse adayika ndalama zomwe zingasinthe - Tulsi asanachoke ku Congress, zomwe zingasinthe lamulo la Espionage ndikuloleza chitetezo cha anthu. Ndipo izi ziyenera kubwezeredwa, kubwezeretsedwanso ku Congress, kuti anthu akhale ndi mwayi woweruzidwa mwachilungamo. Snowden wanena kuti ngati zingachitike, abweranso kudzakumana ndi oweruza ndikudzifotokozera yekha mlandu. Akanakhala wopusa kwambiri, zikanakhala zopanda tanthauzo komanso chifukwa chopanda ntchito, kuti achite tsopano. Iye amatha kulankhula mwanzeru ku dziko kumene iye ali, mpaka zotheka kuti ayang'ane ndi mlandu wowona wa zochita zake ku United States.
AMY GOODMAN: Dan Ellsberg tikufuna kukuthokozani kwambiri chifukwa chokhala nafe nthawi ino, wolemba mbiri wa Pentagon Papers. Ndipo tsiku lochedwa la Happy 90th Birthday, Dan.
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Zikomo.
AMY GOODMAN: Ndi ambiri, ambiri akudza.
DANIELI ELLSBERG: Monga agogo ako.
AMY GOODMAN: Mlembi wa Njira ya Doomsday: Confessions ya Nuclear War Planner ndi Zinsinsi: Chikumbutso cha Vietnam ndi Paper Pentagon.
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