Carlos Delclos ndi katswiri wa zachikhalidwe cha anthu, wofufuza komanso mkonzi wa ROAR Magazine. Zofuna zake zofufuza zikuphatikiza kusamuka kwa mayiko, kusamuka kwa anthu, kubereka, chikhalidwe cha anthu akumatauni, kayendetsedwe ka anthu komanso chiphunzitso cha chikhalidwe.
GREGORY WILPERT: Takulandirani ku Real News Network. Ndine Gregory Wilpert ku Quito, Ecuador. Mazana masauzande, mwinanso owonetsa miliyoni miliyoni adapita m'misewu ku Barcelona, โโโโSpain Lolemba lapitalo kuti awonetse kuthandizira kwawo ufulu wa Catalan. Kwa zaka zisanu zapitazi, Tsiku la National Catalan lapachaka lakhala malo osonkhanitsira omwe amathandizira ufulu wokulirapo wa Catalonia kuchokera ku Spain. Chaka chino, zidakhala zofunikira kwambiri chifukwa boma lachigawo likukonza zomwe akufuna kuti pakhale referendum yoti Catalonia ikhale yodziyimira pawokha kuchoka ku Spain. Referendum, yomwe ikuyenera kuchitika pa Okutobala 1, idzachitika pakati pa mikangano yayikulu, chifukwa boma lalikulu ku Madrid lalengeza kuti sizololedwa ndipo likuwopseza kuti liziletsa.
Tsopano akulumikizana nafe kuti tikambirane zomwe zikuchitika ndi Carlos Delclos. Amalumikizana nafe kuchokera ku Barcelona, โโโโndi katswiri wazachikhalidwe komanso membala wa gulu la akonzi la magazini ya ROAR. Carlos, zikomo kwambiri chifukwa chokhala nafe lero.
CARLOS DELCLOS: Zikomo chifukwa chokhala nane.
GREGORY WILPERT: Zikuwoneka kuti gulu lodziyimira pawokha la Catalan, lomwe likutsogoleredwa ndi pulezidenti wa Nyumba Yamalamulo ya dera, Carles Puigdemont, akupita kukamenyana ndi boma la Spain likupita patsogolo ndi referendum iyi yodziimira. Tiuzeni zomwe zikuchitika komanso zomwe zingachitike pa Okutobala 1.
CARLOS DELCLOS: Kwa zaka zingapo zapitazi, Catalonia yakhala ikulimbikitsa anthu kuti adziyimire paokha, monga momwe munanenera poyambirira pa zokambiranazi. Zowonadi zambiri zomwe zidayamba chaka, mu 2010, pomwe makhothi aku Spain adalengeza mgwirizano wa Catalonia wokhudza kudziyimira pawokha kwa zigawo ndi boma la Spain, lovomerezedwa ndi boma la Spain. Iwo ananena kuti nโzosemphana ndi malamulo. Izi zinayambitsa kubwezerananso kwakukulu. Kuyambira pamenepo, takhala tikuwona mobwerezabwereza kuyesa kukondwerera referendum kapena kukakamiza kwambiri dziko la Spain kuti lipereke mpata wofuna kudziyimira pawokha m'chigawo cha referendum komanso ufulu wodzilamulira.
M'miyezi ingapo yapitayo, zomwe taziwonadi, ndi mtundu wa masewera a nkhuku pakati pa mabungwe a Catalan ndi mabungwe a ku Spain. Izi zidafika pachimake masiku angapo apitawo pomwe Nyumba Yamalamulo yaku Catalan idakhazikitsa lamulo lakusintha lomwe limayikira kutsutsana mwachindunji ndi chikhalidwe cha Spain. Monga momwe mudanenera, si referendum yokha yomwe ikunenedwa kuti ndi yoletsedwa, koma zambiri zomwe boma la Catalan likulimbikitsa panthawiyi zimayang'aniridwa ndi boma la Spain ndi makhoti a ku Spain, mwatsoka, ngati zoletsedwa. Apanso, zomwe tili nazo ndi mtundu wa masewera a nkhuku, kumene mbali iliyonse, Catalonia ndi Spain, nthawi zonse ikukwera.
GREGORY WILPERT: Kodi zimawoneka bwanji pankhani yothandizira izi? Ndikutanthauza, malinga ndi ziwerengero zina zomwe ndaziwona, chiwerengero cha anthu chagawanika pakati pa omwe amazindikira Chisipanishi kwambiri ndi omwe amazindikira Chikatalani kwambiri. Mukuganiza kuti referendum iyi ikhala bwanji ikadzafika pa 1 October?
CARLOS DELCLOS: Chabwino, ndikuganiza ngati referendum ikuchitika kapena ayi, idakali m'mwamba chifukwa boma la Spain likuchita zonse zomwe angathe kuti zisachitike. Kodi anthu amagawanika bwanji pa izi? Chabwino, makamaka zisankho zoyimilira kwanthawi yayitali tsopano anthu aku Catalan adagawanika kwambiri. Sizikudziwika zomwe zingachitike mu referendum yomanga malamulo. Tsopano, mu referendum kapena zochita zophiphiritsa zomwe zakhala zikuchitika mpaka pano, ndithudi, inde wapambana chifukwa chakuti mumathandizira ufulu wodziimira ndi wolimbikitsa ngakhale kupita nawo pazochitikazo.
Pali chinthu chimodzi chomwe ndikadakhala ngati, ndikuganiza kuti sindingakonze, koma ndikadasintha kuwonetserako, ndikuti sizili zambiri pakadali pano ngati anthu amadzizindikiritsa ngati Chisipanishi kapena Chikatalani. Ndi kuponderezedwa kwa boma la Spain, zakhala zochulukira pang'ono ngati Spanish Central State ndi demokalase kuposa momwe dziko la Catalan lingakhalire. Ngakhale anthu aku Catalan agawika 50/50 pazomwe zingachitike, ngati akufuna ufulu kapena ayi, sanagawidwe ngati referendum iyenera kuchitika. Pali chithandizo cha 80% cha izi.
GREGORY WILPERT: Nanga bwanji magulu ena aku Spain, makamaka azipani? Chaka chatha, mwachitsanzo, nkhani ya ufulu wa Catalan inali imodzi mwa zifukwa zomwe Socialist Party ndi Podemos, chipani chakumanzere, sichinathe kupanga mgwirizano wolamulira dziko la Spain. Ndi maudindo ati, mwachitsanzo, omwe a Socialist Party ndi Podemos akutenga tsopano popeza chisankho chikubwera chaka chotsatira?
CARLOS DELCLOS: Chabwino, Podemos, kwa nthawi yayitali, adathandizira ufulu wa Catalan wosankha. Tsopano ngati uwu ndi ufulu wosankha mwalamulo lomwe limadziwika ndi dziko la Spain ndi chinthu chosokoneza apa. Anzawo a Podemos ku Catalonia akhala akuwonetsa kuti amathandizira kudziyimira pawokha, koma adatsindika kuvomerezeka kwa ndondomekoyi ndi mtundu wa chikhalidwe cha chikhalidwe chake, zitsimikizo zalamulo zomwe zimafunikira, kalembera. Zinthu zonsezi zomwe muyenera kuchita kuti mukhale ndi zisankho zomasuka komanso zachilungamo. Ndipo zomwe, m'malingaliro a anthu ambiri, kulimbana kwamtunduwu ndi boma la Spain pakadali pano kukupangitsa kuti zikhale zovuta kuti zichitike.
Kumanzere kwagawika m'lingaliro pankhaniyi mpaka pomwe tikuganizira za Socialist Party kumanzere, zomwe zingakambidwe. Koma ndikuganiza kuti akuwona momwe zilili pano mwayi woti atha kupanga mgwirizano pakati pa Socialists ndi Podemos ndi Nationalist Parties kuti apatse Catalonia kudziyimira pawokha kwachigawo pambuyo potulutsa Mariano Rajoy m'boma, zomwe zingafune kusuntha. wa kudzudzula. Ndipo ndikuganiza kuti izi ndizovuta kwambiri ngati zingatheke. Tsopano funso ndiloti lili ndi zovomerezeka kapena ngati Catalonia yadutsa nthawi imeneyo.
GREGORY WILPERT: Chabwino zikuwoneka kuti nkhaniyi ndi yovuta makamaka kumanzere chifukwa mbali imodzi, iwo angagwirizane ndi ufulu wodzilamulira, koma kumbali ina, payenera kukhala kuzindikira kuti kulekanitsidwa kwa chigawo chimodzi cholemera kwambiri cha dziko, chomwe. ndi Catalonia, zingatanthauze kuchepa kapena misonkho m'dziko lonselo, zomwe zitha kupindulitsa madera osauka. Kodi mtsutso wakumanzere wokomera ufulu wodziyimira pawokha ndi uti?
CARLOS DELCLOS: Chabwino, mkangano wakumanzere wokomera ufulu wodziyimira pawokha uyenera kuchita ndi zinthu zina zomwe zili ngati, mukudziwa, zisanachitike ... Njira ya Republican ku ndale. Iwo ali ndi lingaliro ili kuti pali ufulu wotukuka, wocheperako mwaukali ku Catalonia, womwe nthawi zina, mukudziwa, osamveka bwino ngati ndi choncho. Ineyo pandekha ndilibe ... sindingayerekeze kuti ndikudziwa malo oyenera kumanzere pa izi. Ndikuganiza kuti pali anthu ambiri ku Catalan omwe atsala omwe amakhulupirira kuti iyi ndi sitepe yoyamba yosintha kapena kusintha dziko la Spain ndikuchotsa ufumu, ndikuchotsa boma lapakati lomwe lachita zachinyengo kwambiri, lomwe lili ndi ngongole zambiri ulamuliro wankhanza umene unatha mโma 1970. Ndipo chifukwa chake amawona izi ngati njira yoti athetseretu mbiri yakale yaku Spain yaulamuliro ndikulimbikitsa zomwe amazitcha njira yodziwikiratu ku Spain konse.
GREGORY WILPERT: Ndikuwona. Chabwino kwenikweni, ndicho chinachake chimene ine ndinkafuna kuti ndibwererenso ndi zotsatira zomwe izi zidzakhala nazo pa boma pa mlingo wa dziko. Munatchulapo kuti mwina zimenezi zingachititse kuti boma lisinthe. Kodi pali mwayi uliwonse ndipo izi zingachitike bwanji? Prime Minister Rajoy akulamulira popanda anthu ambiri komanso kulolerana ndi chipani chaching'ono cha Conservative, Ciudadanos. Kodi zimenezi zingatheke bwanji? Kodi kusintha kwa boma kukanatheka bwanji?
CARLOS DELCLOS: Chabwino, kusintha kwa boma kungachitike choyamba chifukwa Partido Popular, chipani cha Rajoy, chakhudzidwa ndi ziphuphu, zomwe zimafuna kulowererapo kwa makhothi. Ndikutanthauza, mukudziwa, dzulo chabe, mzinda wachilungamo, kapena makhothi, makhothi ku Valencia, komwe kuli pakatiโฆ Valencia ndiye likulu lazambiri zachinyengo za Partido Popular. Iwo mwadzidzidzi anapeza kuti zolemba zawo zonse zinali pamoto. Kuti ma alarm sanayike ndipo umboni wambiri, mukudziwa, ukhoza kuwonongedwa. Ndi machitidwe awa omwe akuwoneka kuti akuwonetsa kuti Partido Popular, mukudziwa, akuchita nawo zachinyengo zambiri. Ndipo Mariano Rajoy ndi mtundu wosasangalatsa pa izi. Pali kuthekera kochuluka kuti Socialists, Podemos, ndipo moona mtima ngakhale Ciudadanos akhoza kuwona zolimbikitsana kuti alowe pamodzi kuti achotse Mariano Rajoy.
Tsopano kaya izi zingapangitse mgwirizano ndi Catalonia, zomwe zimagwirizana ndi mbali zonse, ndi funso lina la ndale, losiyana kwambiri ndi kuthekera kwa boma latsopano lapakati. Ndizovuta kunena. Ngati zili choncho, vutoli likubweretsa kusatsimikizika kwakukulu. China chomwe ikupanga ndi anthu ambiri odziyimira pawokha chifukwa yankho la boma pazimenezi ndi kukhala oumitsa khosi, osakambirana, komanso kuchita zinthu movutikira. Panthawi imodzimodziyo, magulu ambiri odziyimira pawokha, ena mwa anthu odziwika bwino anena m'manyuzipepala pano kuti, mwa zina, zomwe akufuna kuchita ndi [inaudible 00:11:15] kuyankha mwamphamvu ku Spain. kuti potsiriza kukankhira ena onse a Catalonia kumbali yawo. Awa ndi masewera owopsa kwambiri a nkhuku omwe, mukudziwa, ndikuganiza kuti pali malo omwe ali otseguka pakati pa anthu omwe angafune kuwona njira yololera ku zonsezi, omwe amapewa kumenyana uku. Koma nthawi yomweyo, titha kupitilira pamenepo ndipo sizikudziwika.
GREGORY WILPERT: Chabwino, tiyang'anitsitsa izi makamaka pamene tikuyandikira October 1st pamene referendum ikhoza kuchitika kapena ayi, ndipo tidzabweranso kwa inu. Zikomo kwambiri, Carlos, polankhula nafe.
CARLOS DELCLOS: Zikomo kwambiri chifukwa chokhala nane.
GREGORY WILPERT: Ndipo zikomo chifukwa chowonera Real News Network.
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