Bharat: Enkosi ngokwamkela olu dliwano-ndlebe. Okokuqala ndingathanda ukubuza ukuba kukho into oyenzayo okwangoku ongathanda ukusazisa ngayo?
Ilan Pappรฉ: Ndigqibezela iincwadi ezininzi. Eyokuqala yimbali emfutshane yokuhlala kwamaSirayeli kwi-West Bank kunye ne-Gaza Strip, enye ikwilizwe elincinane lasePalestina.
UNoam Chomsky: Uluhlu oluqhelekileyo lwamanqaku, iintetho, njl. Akukho xesha leeprojekthi ezinkulu ngoku.
Bharat: Ilungu lePalamente yase-Bhritane mva nje lithe laziva litshintshile kule minyaka mihlanu idlulileyo
Ilan Pappรฉ: Le mizekelo mibini ibonisa utshintsho olubalulekileyo kwimbono yoluntu nakuluntu. Nangona kunjalo, ingxaki yahlala injalo kwiminyaka engamashumi amathandathu edlulileyo: ezi mpembelelo kunye namandla aziguqulelwanga, kwaye akunakwenzeka ukuba ziguqulelwe kwikamva elikufutshane, kwimigaqo-nkqubo yangempela emhlabeni. Kwaye ngoko ekuphela kwendlela yokuphucula olu tshintsho ukusuka kwinkxaso ukusuka ngezantsi ukuya kweyona migaqo-nkqubo kungokuphuhlisa uluvo lwezohlwayo kunye nokukwaya. Oku kunokunika ulungelelwaniso olucacileyo kunye nomkhombandlela kubantu abaninzi kunye nee-ngos ezibonise iminyaka yomanyano kunye
Chomsky: Kukho utshintsho olucacileyo kakhulu kwiminyaka yakutshanje. Kwiikhampasi zase-US kunye nabaphulaphuli ngokubanzi ngokunjalo. Kwakungekudala ukuba ukukhuselwa kwamapolisa kwakuyinto eqhelekileyo yeentetho kuzo zonke ezigxeka imigaqo-nkqubo yakwaSirayeli, iintlanganiso zaphulwa, abaphulaphuli banobutshaba kwaye baxhaphaza. Ukuza kuthi ga ngoku, yahluke kakhulu, ngaphandle kokushiyana okuthe saa. Abathetheleli ngobundlobongela bakwa-Israel ngoku bakholisa ukuzikhusela kwaye baphelelwe lithemba, kunokuba bazikhukhumeze kwaye bagqithise. Kodwa ukugxekwa kwezenzo zakwa-Israyeli kuncinci, kuba iinyani ezisisiseko zicinezelwa ngokucwangcisiweyo. Oko kuyinyaniso ngokukodwa kwisigqibo
Bharat: Igama elithi apartheid lisetyenziswa rhoqo yiNGOs kunye nemibutho yesisa ukuyichaza
Ilan Pappรฉ: Kukho ukufana kunye nokungafani. Imbali yobukoloniyali inezahluko ezininzi ezifanayo kwaye ezinye zeempawu zenkqubo yoCalucalulo zinokufunyanwa kwimigaqo-nkqubo yakwaSirayeli ngokubhekiselele kwigcuntswana layo lasePalestine nakwabo bakwimimandla ehluthiweyo. Eminye imiba yomsebenzi, nangona kunjalo, imbi ngakumbi kunenyani yocalucalulo yaseMzantsi Afrika kwaye eminye imiba kubomi babemi basePalestine kwaSirayeli, ayimbi kangako njengoko yayinjalo ngemihla yocalucalulo. Inqaku eliphambili lokuthelekisa nengqondo yam yinkuthazo yezopolitiko. Umbutho wokuchasa ucalucalulo, i-ANC, uthungelwano lwentsebenziswano oluphuhliswe kuyo yonke iminyaka eNtshona, kufuneka lukhuthaze iphulo eligxile kakhulu kwaye libe nefuthe elixhasa iPalestine. Yiyo loo nto kukho imfuneko yokufunda ngembali yomzabalazo wokulwa ucalucalulo, ngaphezu kokuhlala ixesha elide ekuthelekiseni iinkqubo zamaZiyoni kunye nezoCalucalulo.
Noam Chomsky: Ayinakuba nampendulo iqinisekileyo kwimibuzo enjalo. Kukho ukufana kunye nokungafani. ngaphakathi
Xa sijongisisa ngakumbi, imeko ye-OT yohluka ngeendlela ezininzi kucalucalulo. Ngandlelโ ithile, ucalucalulo lwaseMzantsi Afrika lwalunoburhalarhume kunezenzo zakwaSirayeli, kwaye kwezinye iimeko okwahlukileyo kuyinyaniso. Ukukhankanya umzekelo omnye, uMzantsi Afrika wabaMhlophe wawuxhomekeke kubasebenzi abaNtsundu. Uninzi lwabemi alukwazanga ukugxothwa. Ngaxa lithile uSirayeli wayethembele kubasebenzi basePalestina abangabizi mali eninzi nababexhatshazwa ngokulula, kodwa kudala bathatyathelwโ indawo ngamahlwempu omhlaba avela eAsia, eMpuma Yurophu nakwezinye iindawo. AmaSirayeli ebeya kuphefumla isiqabu ukuba amaPalestine ebenokunyamalala.
Kwaye akusiyo imfihlo ukuba imigaqo-nkqubo ethathiweyo ihambelana kakuhle neengcebiso zikaMoshe Dayan kanye emva kwemfazwe ye-1967: Abantu basePalestina baya "kuqhubeka bephila njengezinja, kwaye nabani na onqwenela ukuhamba." Izindululo ezigqithise ngakumbi zenziwe ngabantu abasekhohlo ababonwa kakhulu eUnited States, umzekelo uMichael Walzer weZiko leZifundo eziPhakamileyo ePrinceton kunye nomhleli wejenali yedemokhrasi yobusoshiyali ethi Dissent, owacebisa kwiminyaka engama-35 eyadlulayo ukuba ekubeni abantu basePalestine "bengadingeki ukuba bafikelele kwisigqibo senkululeko". uhlanga,โ bafanele โbancedweโ ukuba bahambe. Wayebhekisa kubemi basePalestine bakwaSirayeli uqobo, isikhundla esele siqhelekile mva nje nguAvigdor Lieberman wasekunene, kwaye ngoku sicholwa kwindawo eqhelekileyo yakwaSirayeli. Ndibabeka ecaleni abona bantu banenzondelelo yempambano, abafana noNjingalwazi weHarvard Law u-Alan Dershowitz, othi uSirayeli akaze abulale abantu, kuphela abanqolobi, ukuze inkcazo โyobugrogrisiโ โibulawe nguSirayeliโ; kwaye uSirayeli kufuneka ajolise kumlinganiselo wokubulala we-1000 ukuya kwi-zero, okuthetha "ukutshabalalisa ama-brutes" ngokupheleleyo. Asinto incinci into yokuba abameli bezi mbono bajongwe ngentlonipho kwizangqa ezikhanyisiweyo e-US, ngokwenene eNtshona. Ubani unokuyithelekelela indlela awayeza kusabela ngayo ukuba amagqabaza anjalo ayesenziwa ngamaYuda.
Kumbuzo, ukuphinda, akukho mpendulo ecacileyo malunga nokuba isifaniso sifanelekile.
Bharat: U-Israel usandul 'ukuthi uya kugxotha inkomfa ye-UN malunga namaLungelo oLuntu eThekwini ngenxa yokuba "akunakwenzeka ukunqanda inkomfa ukuba iguquke ibe ngumthendeleko wokuhlaselwa kwe-Israel" kwaye uye wayicima intlanganiso kunye namagosa aseCosta Rican kwiCentral. Isigqibo sesizwe saseMelika sokuvuma ngokusesikweni ilizwe lasePalestine. Ngaba ukwala kukaSirayeli ukwamkela naluphi na uhlobo lokugxekwa kwimigaqo-nkqubo yakhe kunokukhokelela ekugqibeleni?
Ilan Pappรฉ: Umntu unethemba lokuba iya kuphinda ibuye ngenye imini. Nangona kunjalo, oku kuxhomekeke kwibhalansi yamandla ehlabathi kunye neyengingqi, hayi kuphela kumaSirayeli 'ekuphenduleni ngaphezulu'. Ezi zimbini, eziziibhalansi zamandla kunye nokungathobeli kukaSirayeli, zinokudityaniswa kwixesha elizayo. Ukuba kukho utshintsho kumgaqo-nkqubo waseMelika, okanye kwindima yayo ye-hegemonic kwezopolitiko zommandla, kunokuba ukuqhubeka nokungaguquki kwe-Israel kunokukhuthaza uluntu lwamazwe ngamazwe ukuba luthathe indawo ebaluleke kakhulu ngokuchasene noSirayeli kwaye lucinezele urhulumente wamaYuda ukuba aphelise umsebenzi. kunye nokuhluthwa kwePalestina
UNoam Chomsky: Umntu unokuvumelana okanye angavumelani nezi zigqibo, kodwa azithethi "ukwala ukwamkela naluphi na uhlobo lokugxekwa kwimigaqo-nkqubo yayo." Ndiyathandabuza ukuba ezi zigqibo ziya kubuya umva, okanye ziya kufumana isaziso esikhulu.
Bharat: U-Israyeli angafikelela njani kwisivumelwano nombutho obhengeza ukuba akasokuze amqonde uSirayeli kwaye nomqulu wawo othi makutshatyalaliswe ilizwe lamaJuda? Ukuba ngenene iHamas ifuna ukulungiswa, kutheni ingamazi uSirayeli?
Ilan Pappรฉ: Uxolo lwenziwa phakathi kweentshaba hayi abathandi. Isiphumo sokugqibela senkqubo yoxolo sinokuba kukuqatshelwa kwezopolitiko zamaSilamsi kwindawo yamaYuda ePalestina nakuMbindi Mpuma ngokubanzi, nokuba kukwilizwe elahlukileyo okanye kwilizwe elidibeneyo. I-PLO yangena kuthethathethwano noSirayeli ngaphandle kokutshintsha i-charter yayo, engahlukanga kangako ngokwesimo sengqondo sikaSirayeli. Ngoko ke ukukhangela kufuneka kube kumbhalo, isisombululo kunye nesakhiwo sezopolitiko esibandakanyayo-esenza ukuba onke amaqela esizwe, ubuhlanga, inkolo kunye neengcamango zihlalisane.
UNoam Chomsky: I-Hamas ayinakukwazi ukuqaphela uSirayeli njengoko iKadima ingayiqaphela iPalestine, okanye kunokuba iDemocratic Party e-US inokwazi iNgilani. Umntu unokubuza ukuba urhulumente okhokelwa yi-Hamas kufuneka aqonde u-Israyeli, okanye ukuba urhulumente okhokelwa nguKadima okanye iDemocratic Party kufuneka aqaphele iPalestina. Ukuza kuthi ga ngoku bonke benqabile ukwenza njalo, nangona i-Hamas ibize ubuncinci ukuhlaliswa kwamazwe amabini ngokuhambelana nemvumelwano yexesha elide, ngelixa uKadima kunye neDemocratic Party benqaba ukuya kude, begcina imeko yokugatya. I-US kunye no-Israel baye bagcina iminyaka engaphezu kwe-30 bebodwa kumazwe ngamazwe. Ngokubhekiselele kumazwi, xa iNkulumbuso u-Olmert ebhengeza kwiseshoni edibeneyo yeNkongolo yase-US ukuba ukholelwa "kwilungelo labantu bethu elingunaphakade neliyimbali kulo mhlaba uphela," ngentswahla yezandla, mhlawumbi akabhekiseli kuphela kwiPalestina ukusuka eJordan ukuya. ulwandle, kodwa nakwelinye icala lomlambo iYordan, ibango eliyimbali leLikud Party eyayilikhaya lakhe lezopolitiko, ibango elingazange lishiywe ngokusesikweni, kulwazi lwam. Kwi-Hamas, ndicinga ukuba kufuneka iwayeke loo malungiselelo e-charter yayo, kwaye kufuneka isuke ekwamkelweni kwe-state-state settlement ukuya ekuqondeni okufanayo, nangona kufuneka sikhumbule ukuba izikhundla zayo ziza ngakumbi kunezo zase-US kunye ne-Israel.
Bharat: Kwezi nyanga zimbalwa zidlulileyo, i-Israel igxininise uhlaselo lwayo eGaza kwaye ithetha ngohlaselo lomhlaba oluzayo, kukho ithuba elinamandla lokuba ibandakanyeka ekubulaweni kwenkokeli ye-Hezbollah uMughniyeh kwaye inyanzelisa izohlwayo ezinamandla (kubandakanywa nomkhosi. ) eIran. Ngaba uyakholelwa ukuba ukulangazelela kukaSirayeli imfazwe ekugqibeleni kunokukhokelela ekubeni azitshabalalise?
Ilan Pappรฉ: Ewe, ndicinga ukuba ubundlongondlongo buyanda kwaye i-Israel ayichasanga nje kuphela ihlabathi lasePalestina, kodwa kunye nama-Arabhu kunye namaSilamsi. Ibhalansi yomkhosi wamandla, okwangoku, kubukho bukaSirayeli, kodwa oku kunokutshintsha nangaliphi na ixesha, ngakumbi xa i-US irhoxisile inkxaso yayo.
UNoam Chomsky: Ndabhala kumashumi eminyaka eyadlulayo ukuba abo bazibiza ngokuba "ngabaxhasi bakwaSirayeli" enyanisweni bangabaxhasi bokuwohloka kokuziphatha kunye nentshabalalo enokwenzeka. Ndikwakholelwa iminyaka emininzi ukuba ukhetho lukaSirayeli olucacileyo lokwandisa ngaphezu kokhuseleko, okoko lwala ukunikezelwa kweSadat ngesivumelwano soxolo esipheleleyo ngo-1971, kunokukhokelela kweso siphumo.
Bharat: Yintoni eyayiza kuthatha ukuba i-US irhoxise inkxaso yayo engenamiqathango kuSirayeli?
Ilan Pappรฉ: Ngaphandle: ukuwohloka komgaqo-nkqubo wayo woMbindi Mpuma, ikakhulu ngenxa yokuwa kwelinye lamahlakani ayo. Kungenjalo, kodwa kuncinci, ukuvela komgaqo-nkqubo ochasene neYurophu. Ngaphakathi: ingxaki enkulu yezoqoqosho kunye nempumelelo yomanyano lwangoku lwamandla asebenzayo phakathi koluntu ukuchaphazela olo tshintsho.
UNoam Chomsky: Ukuphendula loo nto, kufuneka siqwalasele imithombo yenkxaso. Icandelo leshishini e-US, elilawula ukuqulunqwa komgaqo-nkqubo, libonakala lanelisekile yimeko yangoku. Olunye umqondiso kukukhula kotyalo-mali oluya kwaSirayeli yi-Intel, i-Hewlett-Packard, iMicrosoft, kunye nezinye izinto eziphambili kuqoqosho lwe-high-tech. Ubudlelwane bomkhosi nobukrelekrele buhlala buqinile. Ukususela kwi-1967, iingqondo ze-US ziye zathandana ngokwenene kunye no-Israyeli, ngenxa yezizathu ezihambelana ngakumbi ne-US kune-Israel, ngokombono wam. Oko kuchaphazela kakhulu ukuboniswa kweziganeko kunye nembali kumajelo eendaba nakwiijenali. Abantu basePalestine babuthathaka, basasazekile, abanabahlobo, kwaye abaniki nto ekugxininiseni amandla e-US. Uninzi lwabantu baseMelika baxhasa imvumelwano yamazwe-ngamazwe malunga nokuhlaliswa kwemibuso emibini, kwaye bade bacele uncedo olulinganayo kuSirayeli kunye namaPalestina. Kule, njengakwezinye iinkalo ezininzi, omabini amaqela ezopolitiko alilungelo loluntu. I-95% yabemi base-US bacinga ukuba urhulumente kufuneka anikele ingqalelo kwiimbono zabemi, isikhundla esaliwayo kwi-elite spectrum (ngamanye amaxesha ngokucacileyo, ngamanye amaxesha ngokucokisekileyo). Yiyo loo nto inyathelo elinye lokuya kwinqanaba elilinganayo liya kuba "kukukhuthaza idemokhrasi" e-US. Ngaphandle kweso siganeko, into enokuthi ithathelwe yiminyhadala ekhokelela ekubalweni kwakhona kwemidla phakathi kwamacandelo aphakamileyo.
Bharat: I-CounterPunch ibonise ingxoxo enomdla kwi-1 state vs 2 ithi isisombululo kwinyanga ephelileyo. Kwaqala ngenqaku likaMichael Neumann elithi "isisombululo selizwe esinye sasiyinkohliso" kwaye yalandelwa ngamanqaku avela ku-Assaf Kfoury enesihloko esithi "Ilizwe elinye okanye iLizwe eliMbini?" -Ingxoxo eNgcono kwiiNdlela eziNgcono ezingeyonyani" kunye noJonathan Cook enesihloko esithi "Ilizwe elinye okanye amabini, okanye, umcimbi yiZionism". Luthini uluvo lwakho malunga noku kwaye ucinga ukuba ngokujonga "iinyani emhlabeni" (indawo zokuhlala, ukudlula? iindlelaโฆ) ezenziwe ngu-Israyeli isisombululo se-2 sisenokwenzeka?
Ilan Pappรฉ: Iinyani ezisemhlabeni zenze ukuba isisombululo samazwe amabini singenakwenzeka kwakudala. Iinyani zibonise ukuba akuzange kubekho kwaye akusayi kuze kube yimvume yakwaSirayeli kwilizwe lasePalestine ngaphandle kwelizwe elingenammiselo ngaphakathi kweBantustans ezimbini kwiWest Bank kunye neGaza ngokupheleleyo phantsi kolawulo luka-Israel. Sele kukho urhulumente omnye kwaye umzabalazo kukutshintsha ubume nolawulo lwawo. Nokuba ulawulo olutsha kunye nesiseko somgaqo-siseko siya kuba sisizwe-mbini okanye sedemokhrasi, okanye mhlawumbi zombini, akubalulekanga kangako okwangoku. Nasiphi na isinxibo sezopolitiko esinokuthatha indawo yemeko yangoku yobuhlanga yamkelekile. Nasiphi na isinxibo esinjalo sifanele sincede iimbacu zikwazi ukubuyela kwanabona bafuduki bamvanje bashiyeke.
UNoam Chomsky: Kufuneka senze umahluko phakathi kwesindululo kunye nenkxaso. Singacebisa ukuba wonke umntu makahlale ngoxolo. Iba luthethelelo xa sizoba indlela eyiyo ukusuka apha ukuya phaya. Isisombululo sombuso omnye senza ingqiqo encinci, ngokombono wam, kodwa urhulumente welizwe elinesibini wenza. Kwakunokwenzeka ukukhuthaza ukuzinza okunjalo ukususela ngowe-1967 ukuya kutsho phakathi kwiminyaka yee-1970, yaye eneneni ndenza njalo, kwimibhalo neentetho ezininzi, kuquka nencwadi. Ubukhulu becala basabela ngumsindo. Emva kokuba amalungelo elizwe lasePalestina engene kwi-ajenda yamazwe ngamazwe phakathi kwiminyaka yoo-1970, kuye kwahlala kusenzeka ukuthethelela i-bi-nationalism (kwaye ndisaqhubeka ndenza njalo), kodwa kuphela njengenkqubo edlula kumanqanaba aphakathi, eyokuqala ibe kukuhlaliswa kwemibuso emibini. ngokuhambelana nemvumelwano yamazwe ngamazwe. Eso siphumo, mhlawumbi esona sihle sinokubonwa kwixesha elifutshane, saphantse safikelelwa kwiingxoxo zaseTaba ngoJanuwari 2001, kwaye ngokutsho kwabathathi-nxaxheba, ngekwafikelelwe ukuba uthethwano lwalungapheliswanga kwangethuba yiNkulumbuso yakwaSirayeli uBharaki. Elo yaba ngumzuzu omnye kule minyaka ingama-30 idlulileyo xa amazwe amabini aphambili angakwamkeliyo aye aqwalasela ngokufutshane ukuzibandakanya nemvumelwano yamazwe ngamazwe, kunye nexesha elinye apho isivumelwano sozakuzo sasibonakala sisemnyango. Kuninzi okutshintshileyo ukusukela ngo-2001, kodwa andiboni sizathu sokukholelwa ukuba le nto yayifikeleleka ngelo xesha ayinakwenzeka namhlanje.
Kungumdla othile, kwaye ndicinga ukuba kuyafundisa, ukuba izindululo "zesisombululo sombuso omnye" ziyanyanyezelwa phakathi kwesiqhelo namhlanje, ngokungafaniyo nexesha apho ubhengezo lwalunokwenzeka ngokwenene kwaye lwalusisiqalekiso. Namhlanje zipapashwa kwiNew York Times, New York Review of Books, nakwezinye iindawo. Umntu unokugqiba kuphela ukuba zithathwa njengezamkelekileyo namhlanje kuba azinakwenzeka ngokupheleleyo - zihlala ziyisiphakamiso, kungekhona ukukhuthaza. Ngokwesiqhelo, izindululo zibonelela ngenkxaso kwi-US-Israeli ukwaliwa, kwaye zijongela phantsi ekuphela kokukhuthaza okunokwenzeka kwesisombululo selizwe-mbini, ngezigaba.
Namhlanje kukho iindlela ezimbini zokukhetha amaPalestina. Enye kukulahlwa kwama-US-Israel kwisimo sawo sokuchasa, kunye nokuhlaliswa ngokuthe ngqo kwimigca yento ebisondela eTaba, Olunye ukhetho kukuqhubela phambili kwemigaqo-nkqubo yangoku, ekhokelela, ngokungathandabuzekiyo, ekudityanisweni kwento eyifunayo kuSirayeli: ubuncinci, iYerusalem eNkulu, imimandla engaphakathi koDonga olwahlulayo (ngoku oluLudonga oluDityanisiweyo), iNtlambo yeYordan, kunye neesalents ezinqumla eMaaleh Adumim naseAriyeli nangaphaya koko zihlalutya ngokufanelekileyo izinto eziseleyo, eziya kuqhekezwa zibe ziinqumlo ezingenakuphikiswa. iiprojekthi ezinkulu zeziseko ezingundoqo, amakhulu eendawo zokutshekisha, kunye nezinye izixhobo zokuqinisekisa ukuba abantu basePalestina baphila njengezinja.
Kukho abo bakholelwa ukuba abantu basePalestine kufuneka bavumele uSirayeli ukuba athathe iWest Bank ngokupheleleyo aze enze umzabalazo wamalungelo oluntu/ochasene nocalucalulo. Noko ke, yinkohliso leyo. Akukho sizathu sokuba i-US-Israel iyakwamkela indawo yesi siphakamiso. Baza kuqhuba ngokulula kwimigca ephunyeziweyo ngoku, kwaye abayi kwamkela naluphi na uxanduva lwabantu basePalestine abasasazeke ngaphandle kwemimandla abajonge ukuyifaka kwaSirayeli.
Bharat: Ebudeni bohambo lwam lwakutsha nje oluya kwaSirayeli/ePalestine kuye kwacaca (ukuthetha nabantu, ukufunda amaphephandaba, ukubukela iindaba) ukuba kukho into eyoyikeka kakhulu uSirayeli: ukuGxwayiba. Ngaba uyaluthanda olu hlobo lwezenzo kwaye ucinga ukuba zinokuthwala isiqhamo?
Ilan Pappรฉ: Ewe ndinguye kwaye ndicinga ukuba inethuba lokuqalisa iinkqubo zotshintsho emhlabeni.
UNoam Chomsky: Ukukwaywa ngamanye amaxesha kuyavakala. Umzekelo, izenzo ezinjalo ezichasene noMzantsi Afrika zasebenza, nangona ulawulo lweReagan lwayibaleka izohlwayo zenkongolo ngelixa ibhengeza i-ANC kaMandela njengelinye "lamaqela abanqolobi adume kakubi" kwihlabathi (ngo-1988). Amanyathelo aye asebenza kuba isiseko sasibekwe kwiminyaka emininzi yemfundo nobutshantliziyo. Ngexesha beziphunyezwa, bafumana inkxaso emandla e-US ngaphakathi kwenkqubo yezopolitiko, amajelo eendaba, kunye necandelo loshishino. Akukho nto ikude njengaleyo iphunyeziweyo kule meko. Kangangokuba, iminxeba yokukwayiwa iphantse yasibuyisela umva, ibethelela eyona migaqo-nkqubo ingqwabalala nekhohlakeleyo ngakubantu basePalestine.
Ukukwaywa okukhethiweyo, okuqulunqwe ngononophelo, kunokuba nefuthe elithile. Umzekelo, ukwala abavelisi bomkhosi ababonelela ngezixhobo kwaSirayeli, okanye kwiCaterpillar Corporation, ebonelela ngezixhobo zokutshabalalisa iPalestine. Zonke izenzo zabo azikho semthethweni ngokungqongqo, kwaye ukwala kunokwenziwa ukuba kuqondwe kuluntu ngokubanzi, ukuze kube nempumelelo. Ukukwaywa okukhethiweyo kunokusebenza ngokuchasene namazwe anerekhodi embi kakhulu yobundlobongela kunye noloyiko kune-Israel, efana ne-US. Kwaye, ewe, ngaphandle kwenkxaso yakhe eqinisekileyo kunye nokuthatha inxaxheba, u-Israyeli wayengenako ukwenza ukwanda okungekho mthethweni kunye nolunye ulwaphulo-mthetho. Akukho minxeba yokulahlwa kwe-US, hayi ngezizathu zomgaqo, kodwa ngenxa yokuba inamandla kakhulu - iinyani eziphakamisa imibuzo ecacileyo malunga nokuba semthethweni kwezenzo ezijolise kubathengi bayo.
Bharat: Ukubuya e-Israel/ePalestine kwiiveki ezimbalwa ezidlulileyo, umlawuli we-ICAHD UK wathi, nangona i-Annapolis, "akukho nanye into emhlabeni eye yaphucula{...} ukungqina u-Israeli judaisation yelizwe wandishiya ndiziva ndibanda kwaye ndinomsindo". Ukubona oku, ngaba ukuxhathisa kwePalestina (eyayingenabundlobongela ukuza kuthi ga ngoku) ukubuyela kumzabalazo oxhobileyo kwaye iqalise eyona intifada yesi-3 ekhohlakeleyo?
Ilan Pappรฉ: Kunzima ukuyiqonda 'inokwenzeka' - ngokwethiyori banako kwaye banako, umbuzo ngowokuba ingaba iza kuvelisa iziphumo ezahlukileyo kwezi ziphithiphithi zimbini ezidlulileyo, uvakalelo kukuba akunakwenzeka.
UNoam Chomsky: Uluvo lwam ngalo lonke ixesha ibiyeyokuba ubunkokheli basePalestine bunika u-Israyeli kunye nabaxhasi bayo base-US isipho esikhulu ngokubhenela kubundlobongela kunye nokuthumela uguquko-ngaphandle kwento yokuba, ukuqwalaselwa kobuchule ecaleni, ukubhenela kubundlobongela kunomthwalo onzima kakhulu wokuthethelela. . Namhlanje, umzekelo, akukho nto yamkelekileyo kwii-hawks zakwa-Israel kunye ne-US kuneerokethi ze-Qassam, ezibenza bakwazi ukukhwaza ngovuyo malunga nokuba umlinganiselo wokufa kufuneka unyuswe njani ube ngokungenasiphelo (onke amaxhoba achazwa "njengabanqolobi"). Ndikwavumelene kunye nabahlobo bam ababenonxibelelwano kunye neenkokeli zasePalestina (ingakumbi, u-Edward Said kunye no-Eqbal Ahmad) ukuba umzabalazo ongekho ndlongondlongo wawunokuba nethemba elikhulu lempumelelo. Kwaye ndicinga ukuba isenjalo, eneneni amathemba kuphela okuphumelela.
Bharat: Zeziphi iiNGOs kunye nemibutho yesisa esebenzela ubulungisa ePalestine ekufuneka igxile kuyo kwezi nyanga zimbalwa zizayo?
Ilan Pappรฉ: Bazi ngcono kwaye ndiyathandabuza ukubacebisa. Ndicinga ukuba basinike isikhokelo ngekhwelo labo lokukwaya kwaye ukuba bayaqhubeka namanyathelo anjengala kunokuba luncedo kakhulu. Kodwa okona kubaluleke kakhulu kuya kuba kuhle ukuba banokuqhubeka nokusebenza uxolelwaniso kunye nobunye kwinkampu yasePalestina.
UNoam Chomsky: Umsebenzi wemihla ngemihla kunye nongxamisekileyo kukugxila kulwaphulo-mthetho olubi oluqhubekayo lwawona malungelo oluntu asisiseko kunye neeprojekthi ezixhaswa ngu-US zokuhlaliswa kunye nophuhliso ezingekho mthethweni ezenzelwe ukujongela phantsi ukuhlaliswa kwediplomatic. Umsebenzi obanzi ngakumbi kukuzama ukuseka isiseko somzabalazo oyimpumelelo wesisombululo esithathela ingqalelo iimfuno ezinobulungisa zamaqela akhuphisanayo - uhlobo lomsebenzi onzima, ozinikeleyo, ozingisayo wezemfundo kunye nombutho obonelele ngeziseko zezinye iinkqubela phambili ezibhekiselele. uxolo nobulungisa. Sele ndiyibonisile into endicinga ukuba ibandakanya - hayi kancinci, ukukhuthazwa kwedemokhrasi esebenzayo kumandla amakhulu alawulayo.
UFrank Barat uhlala eLondon. Ulilungu lePalestine Solidarity Campaign eLondon kunye ne-ICAHD UK.
I-ZNetwork ixhaswa ngemali kuphela ngesisa sabafundi bayo.
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