KwiDemokhrasi Ngoku! kuphela, sichitha iyure kunye nowayesakuba nguMongameli waseBrazil uLuiz Inácio Lula da Silva, ngoku olwela umongameli kwakhona. Siqala ingxoxo yethu ngokugetyengwa kwelungu lebhunga lesixeko saseRio elineminyaka engama-38 ubudala kunye netshantliziyo lamalungelo oluntu uMarielle Franco, obulewe kwiveki ephelileyo. UFranco, owayeligatyana elimnyama, wayesaziwa ngokugxeka kwakhe ukubulawa kwamapolisa kwiindawo ezihlwempuzekileyo zaseBrazil zaseFavela. Ukusweleka kwakhe kuza ngexesha elibalulekileyo eBrazil kunye nekamva ledemokhrasi kwelona lizwe likhulu eMzantsi Melika. Kwinyanga nje ephelileyo, uMongameli uMichel Temer uyalele umkhosi waseBrazil ukuba uthathe ulawulo lwamapolisa eRio. “Ekuphela kwento awayenzayo yayikukusebenza ngokuchasene nokubulawa kwabantu abantsundu kwimimandla esemagqagaleni ekhusela amalungelo abantu,” utshilo uLula da Silva.
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: Abantu baseBrazil basaqhubeka bezilela ukuphulukana nelungu lebhunga lesixeko saseRio de Janeiro elineminyaka engama-38 ubudala kunye netshantliziyo lamalungelo oluntu uMarielle Franco. UFranco wabulawa, kunye nomqhubi wakhe, ngobusuku bangoLwesithathu ophelileyo, emva kokuba amadoda amabini adubula imoto yakhe ngeembumbulu xa wayebuya kumsitho owawunomxholo wokuxhobisa abasetyhini abamnyama. UFranco, owayeligatyana elimnyama, wayesaziwa ngokugxeka kwakhe ukubulawa kwamapolisa kwiindawo ezihlwempuzekileyo zaseBrazil zaseFavela. Ngobusuku obungaphambi kokufa kwakhe, uFranco wabhala kwi-Twitter, "Bangaphi abanye ekufuneka bafe ukuze iphele le mfazwe?" NgoJanuwari kuphela, amanani karhulumente abonisa amapolisa abulele abantu abayi-154 kwiphondo laseRio.
Ukusweleka kukaFranco kuza ngexesha elibalulekileyo eBrazil kunye nekamva ledemokhrasi kwelona lizwe likhulu laseMzantsi Melika. Kwinyanga nje ephelileyo, uMongameli uMichel Temer uyalele umkhosi waseBrazil ukuba uthathe ulawulo lwamapolisa eRio. Kwiminyaka emibini edlulileyo, uMongameli waseBrazil u-Dilma Rousseff we-Workers' Party wagxothwa yiNdlu yeeNgwevu yaseBrazil, kwinyathelo awathi wayeligwebe njengobhukuqo-mbuso. IBrazil ibambe unyulo ekupheleni kwalo nyaka. Umntu ohamba phambili ngumhlobo kaRousseff, owayenguMongameli waseBrazil uLuiz Inácio Lula da Silva, owaziwa ngokuba nguLula. Ngelixa ekhokele kulo lonke uhlolisiso lwezimvo, ujongene nesigwebo sokuvalelwa entolongweni, emva kokuba efunyaniswe enetyala kwinto abaninzi abakholelwa ukuba bubuqhophololo nobuqhophololo.
Kunyaka ophelileyo, uMongameli uRousseff wathi, ecaphula, “Isahluko sokuqala sobhukuqo-mbuso yayikukubekwa kwam ityala. Kodwa kukho isahluko sesibini, esithintela uMongameli Lula ekubeni abe ngumgqatswa kunyulo lonyaka ozayo,” utshilo uRousseff. Igqwetha lamalungelo oluntu laseBritane uGeoffrey Robertson uxelele New Internationalist ukuba, ukucaphula, "amanyathelo angqongqo ngokungaqhelekanga" athathwayo ukubeka uLula entolongweni, ucaphula, "ngobugqwetha, ngamajelo eendaba, ngemisipha emikhulu yobutyebi kunye namandla eBrazil," unquote.
ULula yinkokeli yombutho wangaphambili owakhonza njengomongameli waseBrazil ukususela ngo-2003 ukuya ku-2010. Ngelo xesha, wanceda ukunyusa amashumi ezigidi zabantu baseBrazil kubuhlwempu. UMongameli uBarack Obama wambiza ngokuba ngoyena mntu udumileyo kwezopolitiko emhlabeni.
Kaloku, late Friday, ndafumana ithuba lokuthetha noLula. WayeseSão Paulo, eBrazil. Ndiqale ngokumbuza ngokubulawa kukaMarielle Franco waseRio Council.
LUIZ INÁCIO ILULA DA SILVA: [iguqulelwe] Amy, sineengxaki ezimbini eBrazil. Eyokuqala kukuba ukubulawa kwakhe akwamkelekanga, ukubulawa kukaMarielle, ibhinqa eliselula. Ekuphela kwento awayenzayo yayikukusebenza ngokuchasene nokubulawa kwabantu abantsundu kwimimandla engaphandle, ekukhuseleni amalungelo oluntu, ekukhuseleni ubomi babantu.
Kucacile ukuba ukufa kwakhe yayikukubulala okucwangcisiweyo. Ngoku, andazi nokuba ibingumkhosi wamajoni okanye ngamapolisa na, kodwa into ecacileyo yeyokuba ayamkelekanga kwaye sonke thina bantu baseBrazil kufuneka sihlangane ngazwi linye sikhwaze ngokuvakalayo sifuna ukohlwaywa ngoko nangoko kwabo banoxanduva loko. oko kubulala.
Kwaye uMongameli uTemer kufuneka afunde isifundo esikhulu ngoku kubulawa, oko kukuthi ingxaki yobundlobongela kwiindawo ezisecaleni zaseBrazil yethu ayiyi kusonjululwa ngokujikela kwimikhosi exhobileyo. Kuyimfuneko ukuba urhulumente abe nobukho kwiindawo ezikufutshane zaseBrazil-ngemisebenzi, imfundo, ukhathalelo lwempilo, imisebenzi yenkcubeko, ingqesho kunye nemivuzo, ukuze abantu baphile kwaye baphile ngesidima. Imikhosi exhobileyo ayizange iqeqeshelwe ukujongana nolwaphulo-mthetho oluqhelekileyo kwiifavelas eBrazil. Baqeqeshelwa ukukhusela ilizwe lethu kwiintshaba zangaphandle. Ngamanye amazwi, xa abantu beqonda ukuba ubundlobongela eBrazil bunxulunyaniswa nomgangatho ophantsi kakhulu wobomi abantu abaphantsi kwayo kunye nokungabikho kweemeko ezifanelekileyo zokuhlala kubantu abahlala kwiindawo ezijikelezayo, ngoko kuya kubakho ubundlobongela obuncinci kwiindawo ezijikelezayo, ingakumbi kubantwana, ulutsha kunye nabantu abamnyama kwilizwe lethu.
Ityala likaMarielle lingumzekelo, kuba lifuna bonke abantu abanengqondo yedemokhrasi emhlabeni, bonke abathanda ubomi, bonke abathanda inkululeko, nabo bonke abo balwela amalungelo abantu—bonke kufuneka baqhankqalaze ngokuvakalayo ukuze ababulali bakaMarielle bavalelwa entolongweni kwaye banikwa isohlwayo esingumzekelo. Yiloo nto sonke esiyifunayo.
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: UCecília Olliveira we Ukuthintela, kwi-Twitter, i-tweet, "Ininzi ye-9mm ye-ammo esetyenziswe ekubulaweni #MarielleFranco & Anderson Pedro-UZZ-18-yathengwa yi-Federal Police & match casings afunyenwe kwindawo yokubulawa kwabantu e-Osasco, eyabulala i-19 eSão UPaulo ngo-2015. Amapolisa ama-2 kunye nonogada bakamasipala omnye bagwetywa.”
Glenn Greenwald Ukuthintela Emva koko wathumela kwi-tweet, "Okothusayo akukho mntu, ubungqina bokuqala buseka amakhonkco phakathi kwamapolisa nababulali ababulala uMarielle Franco. Akukho nto iqinisekileyo okwangoku kulo mba, kodwa ubungqina bokuqala bukhomba ngqo kwelo cala. ”
Uyavumelana noku, Mongameli Lula? Kwaye ucinga ukuba yintoni ekufuneka yenziwe ngokukhawuleza ngoku, njengoko amawaka abantu baye ezitalatweni?
LUIZ INÁCIO ILULA DA SILVA: [Iguqulelwe] Jonga, into yokuqala kukuba, ukuba kuyinyani ukuba isixhobo esabulala uMarielle sisixhobo esithengwe ngamapolisa e-federal kwaye sasisele sisetyenziswe kwenye indyikityha yokufa apha eSão Paulo kwiminyaka emibini edlulileyo, ke siya kuba nomsindo omkhulu. umqondiso onamandla. Kuya kufuneka sazi ukuba ngaxa lithile ngexesha lelo xesha phakathi kokubulawa kwabantu eSão Paulo kunye nokubulawa kukaMarielle, nokuba amapolisa adityaniswa naziphi na izixhobo okanye izixhobo ziye zabiwa kumapolisa omdibaniso. Okanye, ukuba bekukho ukuphanga kwaye izixhobo okanye izixhobo zathengwa ngamapolisa e-federal, kuyimfuneko ukuba amapolisa ahlangeneyo achazele uluntu lwaseBrazil ukuba kutheni ezo zixhobo zazisezandleni zababulali.
Ngoko ke, kukho imfuneko yokucaciswa kobu bungqina, ukuba izixhobo zibiwe kwaye azizange zigxeke, kuba babeneentloni ukuba izixhobo zibiwe kumapolisa ase-federal. Ewe, kule meko, Amy, kubaluleke kakhulu ukuba abantu baqaphele ukuqinisekisa ukuba abenzi izityholo ezingeyonyani okanye izityholo ezifuna isihloko. Ngoku, into eyinyani kukuba amapolisa, imikhosi exhobileyo, urhulumente, ubuntlola bamapolisa, kufuneka bakwazi-ngexesha elifutshane, kufuneka bafumanise ukuba ngoobani aba babulali, emva koko bohlwaye abo babulali. .
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: Owayesakuba nguMongameli waseBrazil uLuiz Inácio Lula da Silva. Ngoku ulwela umongameli kwakhona kwaye ungoyena uphambili ngoku, kodwa kungekudala uza kusingisa entolongweni. Siza kuqhubeka nodliwano-ndlebe lwethu noLula ngomzuzu omnye kwaye simbuze ngezityholo atyatyekwa zona, abathi abaxhasi bakhe bathi zineempembelelo zezopolitiko, kwaye sikwathetha naye ngongenelelo lwase-US eLatin America, malunga nesi sikhumbuzo se-15th yokuhlaselwa kwe-Iraq, nokunye okuninzi. Hlala nathi.
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: Yi le Intando yeninzi Ngoku!, democracynow.org, Ingxelo Yemfazwe Nezoxolo, njengoko siqhubeka ngokukhethekileyo, incoko kunye noMongameli wangaphambili waseBrazil uLuiz Inácio Lula da Silva, owaziwa ngokuba nguLula. Owayesakuba yinkokeli yombutho odumileyo ugqagqaza njengomongameli kunyulo lwalo nyaka kodwa ujongene nesigwebo esinokuthi sivalelwe entolongweni kwinto abaninzi abakholelwa ukuba zizityholo zobuqhetseba zorhwaphilizo ezibotshelelwa kuphando olwaziwa ngokuba yi “Operation Car Wash.” ULula ugwetywe enetyala lokwamkela indlu engaselunxwemeni kwinkampani yobunjineli eyayilwela izivumelwano kwinkampani yeoyile karhulumente iPetrobras, kodwa uninzi lwabalandeli bakaLula bathi ukugwetywa kwakunempembelelo yezopolitiko.
Ukuthintela kutshanje umbiko, icaphula, “Isimangalo ngakuLula sineengxaki ezininzi. Isihloko sefulethi asizange sidluliselwe kuLula okanye kwizinxulumani zakhe; yena nomfazi wakhe abazange bayisebenzise loo ndawo; umtshutshisi akakwazanga ukuchonga intsingiselo ecacileyo okanye inzuzo enxulumene nePetrobras; akukho maxwebhu asemthethweni okanye angaphakathi adibanisa uLula neflethi avelisiweyo; kwaye eli tyala lixhomekeke ngokupheleleyo kubungqina besigqeba ebesinethemba lokufumana ububele besigwebo ngenxa yentsebenziswano yabo,” unquote.
Ngexesha lodliwano-ndlebe ngoLwesihlanu, uMongameli uLula waphendula kwizityholo kunye nesigwebo abekwa sona.
LUIZ INÁCIO ILULA DA SILVA: [iguqulelwe] Andizange ndityholwe ngobuqhophololo. Ndamangalelwa ngenxa yobuxoki kuphando lwamapolisa, ubuxoki kwisimangalo se-Ofisi yeGqwetha Jikelele, kunye nesigwebo sikaJaji Moro, ngenxa yokuba bunye ubungqina bokuba ndimsulwa, kulo lonke eli tyala, igqwetha lam lokuzithethelela licaciswe ngendlela kamantyi. Silindele abatyholi, ukuze abamangaleli babonise noko ubungqina obubonisa ukuba ndenza naluphi na ulwaphulo-mthetho ngeli xesha ndingumongameli.
Ngoku, into esemva koko ziinzame zokwenza ulwaphulo-mthetho umbutho wam wezopolitiko. Yintoni esemva kwaloo nto inomdla kwinxalenye yezopolitiko eBrazil, kunye nenxalenye yeendaba, eqiniswa yindima yenkundla, ekuthinteleni uLula ukuba abe ngumgqatswa kunyulo lwe-2018. Kwaye ndiyaqhubeka nokucela umngeni kumapolisa obumbano, iOfisi yeGqwetha Jikelele. Ndiyaqhubeka ndimcela umngeni uMgwebi uMoro kunye nenkundla yezibheno ukuba ibonise ihlabathi kwaye ibonise iBrazil isiqwengana sobungqina bolwaphulo-mthetho olwenziwa ndim. Ukuziphatha kwenkundla kulo mzekelo yindlela yokuziphatha kwezopolitiko.
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: Mnu. Mongameli, kulo nyaka uphelileyo, uMongameli owagxothwayo uDilma Rousseff wathi, “Isahluko sokuqala sobhukuqo-mbuso yayikukubekwa kwam ityala. Kodwa kukho isahluko sesibini, esithintela uMongameli Lula ekubeni abe ngumgqatswa kunyulo lonyaka ozayo. " Ngaba nawe ubona kwangolo hlobo, ukuba esi sisahluko sokugqibela sobhukuqo-mbuso, ukuba isigwebo sakho sithe gqolo, uya kuthintelwa ukuba ungenele unyulo lukaOktobha?
LUIZ INÁCIO ILULA DA SILVA: [iguqulelwe] uAmy, iWorkers’ Party, kwiminyaka eli-12 ekurhulumente, ephethe urhulumente waseBrazil, wakwazi ukwenza izinto ezininzi ezingazange zenziwe nangaliphi na ixesha kwinkulungwane yama-20. Kweli lizwe, kwiminyaka eli-12, siye sazisa abantu abazizigidi ezingama-40 kudidi oluphakathi. Sakhupha abantu abazizigidi ezingama-36 kubuhlwempu. Ngelixa iYurophu yayilahla imisebenzi ezizigidi ezingama-62 ukusukela ngomhla wama-2000, sidale amathuba emisebenzi azizigidi ezingama-20 kwicandelo elisemthethweni kweli lizwe. Kangangeminyaka eli-12, bonke abasebenzi baseBrazil bakwazile ukoyisa ukunyuka kwamaxabiso. Yayilixesha lokukhula koqoqosho olukhulu kwimbali yaseBrazil. Yayiyeyona nto yosasazo lwengeniso kwimbali yaseBrazil. Ukukunika umbono, kwiminyaka eyi-12, abantu abazizigidi ezingama-70 baqala ukusebenzisa inkqubo yebhanki abangazange bangene ebhankini.
Kwaye xa behlukana ne-Dilma, bafuna ukuba uLula abuye, kuba bayazi ukuba ubudlelwane phakathi kwabantu baseBrazil kunye noMongameli uLula yayiyeyona nto inamandla abantu baseBrazil abakhe baba nomongameli kuyo yonke imbali yelizwe. ilizwe. Kwaye okubaluleke ngakumbi, bayazi ukuba ndiqinisekile ukuba eyona ndlela ilungileyo yokuqinisekisa ukuchacha kwezoqoqosho eBrazil kukuphakamisa abantu abasebenza kweli lizwe. Bayazi ukuba ndiyayazi indlela yokwenza oko. Ngoku ekubeni amahlwempu ayenemisebenzi, efumana umvuzo, efunda, esitya kakuhle, ephila—enezindlu eziphucukileyo, xa oko kusenzeka, uqoqosho luyakhula kwakhona, yaye sinokuba lelona lizwe linethemba ehlabathini nabona bantu bonwabileyo. emhlabeni. Kwaye, Amy, yiloo nto ndifuna ukuba ngumgqatswa kumongameli waseBrazil, ukubonisa ukuba umkhandi ongenaso isidanga saseyunivesithi uyazi ngcono indlela yokunyamekela abantu baseBrazil ngaphezu kwe-elite yaseBrazil, engazange ihoye. intlalontle yabantu baseBrazil.
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: Mongameli Lula, kwakutheni ukuze uthathe isigqibo sokungenela umongameli kwakhona?
LUIZ INÁCIO ILULA DA SILVA: [iguqulelwe] Inyaniso kukuba, andikasithathi isigqibo, Amy. Abo bathatha isigqibo ngabantu baseBrazil. Jonga, zonke iivoti zoluntu eBrazil, inyanga nenyanga-kwaye zininzi zazo - kuzo zonke, ndikwindawo yokuqala. Kwaye ke, ndiyaqala ukuba ngumgqatswa onezona ziphumo zisezantsi kunye nethuba lokuba ngumgqatswa kwaye ndiphumelele kumjikelo wokuqala, kwaye oku kwenza abachasi bam bangakhululeki. Kwaye ndiqinisekile, Amy, ukuba kwiNkundla ePhakamileyo ndiya kukhululwa kwaye ndiya kuba ngumgqatswa, kwaye iBrazil inokuphinda ibe yi-protagonist kumgaqo-nkqubo wamazwe ngamazwe, uqoqosho lunokukhula kwakhona, ludale imisebenzi kwaye luphucule umgangatho wobomi. abantu. Le yinto endiyaziyo indlela yokwenza kakuhle kakhulu.
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: Ukuba ityala alikuhambeli kakuhle kwiNkundla Ephakamileyo, ngaba ubuya kucinga ngokurhoxa?
LUIZ INÁCIO ILULA DA SILVA: [iguqulelwe] Okokuqala, Amy, ndinethemba elikhulu, ndinethemba elikhulu. Ngoku, ukuba oko kwakunokwenzeka yaye andizange ndikwazi—andikwazanga ukuba ngumgqatswa, ukuba igama lam alikho kuvoto, ndicinga ukuba iqela liza kubiza indibano lize lixubushe ngento emayenziwe. Ndiza kufuna oko kwaye ndicele ukuba ubulungisa benziwe elizweni.
Ngoku, ukuba ubumsulwa bam bungqinisisiwe, ngoko uMgwebi uMoro kufuneka asuswe esikhundleni sakhe, kuba aninako ukuba nomgwebi olele emgwebeni aze amvakalise njengonetyala umntu amaziyo ukuba umsulwa. Uyazi ukuba asiyondlu yam. Uyayazi ukuba andizange ndiyithenge. Uyayazi ukuba andihlawulanga nto. Uyayazi ukuba andizange ndiye apho. Uyazi ukuba andinamali kwaPetrobras. Into ekhoyo kukuba ngenxa yokuzithoba kwakhe kumajelo eendaba, ndathi, kwingxoxo yokuqala naye, "Awukho kwimeko yokundikhulula, kuba ubuxoki bugqithise kakhulu." Yaye ihlazo kukuba lowo wenza ubuxoki bokuqala uqhubeka exoka, exoka, exoka, ukuze agwebele ubuxoki bokuqala. Kwaye ndiza kungqina ukuba ebexoka.
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: Ewe, uphakamisa imiba emibini, uMongameli Lula: abeendaba njengomtshutshisi kunye nejaji njengomtshutshisi. Ngaba unokuthetha ngazo zombini? Qala ngamajelo eendaba.
LUIZ INÁCIO ILULA DA SILVA: [iguqulelwe] Ewe, Amy, kubalulekile ukuba uze eBrazil ukuze ubone ukuba kwenzeka ntoni ngoshicilelo lwaseBrazil. Ndaba ngumongameli iminyaka esibhozo. UDilma wayengumongameli iminyaka emine. Kwaye kangangeminyaka eli-12, yonke into eyenziwa ngumshicileli yayikukuzama ukutshabalalisa umfanekiso wam kunye nomfanekiso wakhe kunye nomfanekiso weqela lam. Ndinombandela ombi ngam kwinkqubo yeendaba zikamabonakude ezikhokelayo eBrazil kunabo bonke abongameli kwimbali yonke yaseBrazil. Ngamanye amazwi, ziinzame zemihla ngemihla zokundibulala, ukuthetha izinto ezingeyonyaniso ngoLula, ngosapho lukaLula. Kwaye ekuphela kwesixhobo endinaso kukujongana nabo. Kwaye bayacaphuka, kuba emva kokundibulala kangangeminyaka emine, naluphi na uhlolisiso lwezimvo lwalo naliphi na iziko lovoto lwabonisa ukuba uLula wayeza kuphumelela unyulo lwaseBrazil.
Ngoku, okwesibini, iOfisi yeGqwetha Jikelele kunye nehlazo lokuhlamba iimoto. Ndiyalihlonipha kakhulu iziko. Ndandililungu lendibano yomgaqo-siseko, yaye ndancedisa ekomelezeni indima yeOfisi yeGqwetha Legqwetha Jikelele. Kodwa idale igqiza, eliququzelelwe ngumtshutshisi, nowaye kumabonakude ebonisa iPowerPoint, wathi iPT, iWorkers’ Party, yasekwa ukuba ibe ngumbutho wolwaphulo-mthetho, ukuba uLula ngoyena mntu ubalulekileyo. kwi-PT kwakuthetha ukuba wayeyintloko yombutho wezaphuli-mthetho.
Kwaye ekuqukumbeleni isimangalo, wathetha oku kulandelayo: “Andinabungqina. Andinabo ubungqina. Ndiqinisekile.” Andifuni kugwetywa ngokugwetywa komtshutshisi. Unokuzigcina kuye iinkolelo zakhe. Ndifuna nabani na onditshutshisayo eze ngaphambili kwinkqubo kwaye axelele abantu baseBrazil ukuba bubuphi ulwaphulo-mthetho endilwenzileyo. Ekuphela kwento, Amy, endiyifuna ngokwenene ngoku kukuba ukugwetywa kwetyala lam. Ndifuna ayixoxe. Ndifuna afunde i-prosecutorial brief kunye ne-defence brief, emva koko enze isigqibo. Eyona nto ndiyifunayo ngeli xesha kukuba ubulungisa benziwe kweli lizwe.
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: Umgqatswa ovotelwe okwesibini kunyulo lwaseBrazil yi-congressman yasekunene-ekunene kunye nejoni langaphambili eligama linguJair Bolsonaro. Ubizwa ngokuba yi "Brazilian Trump". Ngaba unokuthetha malunga nokuba ungubani, umele ntoni, kwaye ukuba uyaqonda ukuba kukho naluphi na unxibelelwano phakathi kwakhe norhulumente wase-US ngoku?
LUIZ INÁCIO ILULA DA SILVA: [iguqulelwe] Andikwazi. Andinako ukubeka izityholo ngakumchasi. Ekuphela kwento endiyinqwenelayo kukuba ndibe nelungelo lokungenela unyulo apha eBrazil, ndiphumelele unyulo nokubuyisela ilungelo labantu baseBrazil lokuhlala kakuhle. Andinakuwisa isigwebo kumongameli wase-United States, njengokuba ndingenako ukugweba umongameli wase-Uruguay, kwaye ndingade ndiwise isigwebo kubachasi bam.
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: Kodwa ukuba unokucacisa oko akumelayo, wahluke njani kuye?
LUIZ INÁCIO ILULA DA SILVA: [iguqulelwe] Ulilungu leNkongolo yomanyano. Wayengumphathi woMkhosi kuMkhosi waseBrazil. Ulwazi esinalo kukuba wagxothwa kumkhosi waseBrazil. Kwaye ukuziphatha kwakhe kukude-ekunene-iphiko, i-fascist. Ubacalucalule kakhulu abasetyhini, abantsundu, abantu bomthonyama, ngokuchasene namalungelo oluntu. Ukholelwa ukuba yonke into ingasonjululwa ngogonyamelo. Ke, andicingi ukuba unekamva kwezopolitiko zaseBrazil. Unelungelo lokubaleka. Uyathetha. Uvelisa umfanekiso othile ukukholisa inxalenye yoluntu elunge kakhulu. Kodwa andikholelwa ukuba abantu baseBrazil banomdla ekunyuleni umntu onokuziphatha kwakhe ukuba abe ngumongameli weriphabliki.
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: Ngaba ucinga ukuba wayevuya ngokufa kukaMarielle?
LUIZ INÁCIO ILULA DA SILVA: [iguqulelwe] Ndicinga njalo, kuba ushumayela ubundlobongela mihla le. Ushumayela ugonyamelo. Ukholelwa ukuba abo bakhusela amalungelo oluntu benza into embi kwidemokhrasi. Ucinga ukuba abo bakhusela amalungelo abasetyhini benza idemokhrasi, kwangokunjalo nabo bakhusela amalungelo oluntu oluntsundu. Uchasene nayo yonke into exoxwayo xa umntu ethetha ngamalungelo oluntu.
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: Siyaqhubeka nomgqatswa womongameli waseBrazil, owayesakuba nguMongameli uLuiz Inácio Lula da Silva, kwimizuzwana engama-30.
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: Yi le Intando yeninzi Ngoku! Ndingu-Amy Goodman, njengoko sibuyela kwingxoxo yethu kunye nomongameli wangaphambili waseBrazil, umgqatswa wangoku ongumongameli, uLuiz Inácio Lula da Silva.
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: Mnu. Mongameli, ndifuna ukukubuza malunga nento eyenzekayo eHonduras, kunye noMbutho waseMelika waseMelika uthi unyulo apho uMongameli uHernández wayenobuphene obunzulu, kunye noMmeli waseMelika kwiZizwe eziManyeneyo uNikki Haley esiya eHonduras, ngokucacileyo. unozakuzaku apho, ummeli waseMelika apho, ebandakanyeka nzulu kwinto eyenzekileyo, ngokufungiswa kukamongameli phambi kokulungiswa konyulo. Iingcinga zakho malunga nokwenzekileyo eHonduras, ukubandakanyeka kwe-US apho, kunye nesimo sengqondo sase-US ngokubhekiselele, kwizenzo zase-US eziya eVenezuela, ukubeka iinkokeli ezithile zaseVenezuela kuluhlu lwabathintelweyo ukuba bangene e-United States, kunye nokuthatha amanye amanyathelo ohlwaya ngokuchasene noMaduro. , uMongameli Maduro?
LUIZ INÁCIO ILULA DA SILVA: [iguqulelwe] Amy, kuyabonakala ukuba iUnited States iyangenelela kumazwe akuMbindi Merika. Akunjalo namhlanje ukuba kukho ukuphazamiseka kwe-US. Kumazwe amaninzi akuMbindi Merika, unozakuzaku waseUnited States uziphatha ngokungathi unyulwe lilungelo elikude kumazwe oMbindi Merika esimthandayo. Into endizisola ngayo kakhulu kukuba iUnited States ayizange ifunde ukuhlala ngokwedemokhrasi namazwe akuMbindi Merika kunye namazwe aseLatin America.
UAmy, ngoJanuwari 2003, ndandisele ndingumongameli weriphabliki isithuba esingaphantsi kwenyanga enye, yaye kwakusele kukho ungquzulwano phakathi kweUnited States neVenezuela. Yaye ndandise-Ecuador ndisiba nenxaxheba ekumiselweni kukamongameli wase-Ecuador, xa ndadibana noChávez. Kwaye ndicebise ukuyilwa kweqela labahlobo baseVenezuela, ukuze bakwazi ukuqinisekisa idemokhrasi eVenezuela. Ndaxelela iUnited States ukuba ifanele ibe nenxaxheba kwiqela. UColin Powell uthathe inxaxheba kwiqela. Yaye ndabandakanya iSpeyin, yaye uAznar waba nenxaxheba kwiqela. Ngoba? Kungenxa yokuba iSpeyin yayililizwe lokuqala ukuvuma ubhukuqo-mbuso, yaye iUnited States yatyholwa ngokuba nenxaxheba kubhukuqo-mbuso. Kwaye ndibeka iBrazil kunye neArgentina apho, kwaye ndicinga ukuba iFransi, ngokunjalo. Kwaye sakwazi ukunika iVenezuela ixesha loxolo, ikwazi ukubamba unyulo.
Kwaye into enjengaleyo imele yenzeke namhlanje. Ukuzigqibela kwezizwana kuyinto engcwele. Ilungelo laseMelika, iUnited States inelungelo lokugqiba kwimiba ephathelele eUnited States. Oko kubizwa ngokuba lulongamo. Kwaye kuxhomekeke eVenezuela ukwenza isigqibo ngaphakathi kolongamo lwaseVenezuela. Mna, amaxesha amaninzi, ndenza konke endinako ukwenza ukuba uMongameli Bush adibane noMongameli uChávez. Xa uMongameli Obama wayesandul’ ukulawula, waya eTrinidad naseTobago, emva koko saba nentlanganiso kunye naye kunye noChávez, sizama ukudala iimeko zokuba iUnited States ibe nolwalamano oluseluxolweni neVenezuela. Kodwa kubonakala kum ukuba akunakwenzeka. Kukho ukungabi nangqondo okuthile kwiSebe leSizwe laseMelika elingafuni ukuthethathethana ngoxolo eVenezuela. Kodwa kufuneka siqonde ukuba ukuba i-Central America ikhula, iya kuphucula imeko yezoqoqosho ngokubanzi. Akukho mntu ufuna ukubona idemokhrasi isemngciphekweni naphi na emhlabeni, kwaye yiyo loo nto ndizisola ukuba akukho ukuqonda kwicala lase-United States malunga neVenezuela.
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: I-US CIA, urhulumente waseUnited States, waziwa kakuhle ukuba wayebandakanyekile kubhukuqo-mbuso lwaseBrazil ngowe-1964. Ngaba uyabubona nabuphi na ubungqina boko, kokubini ekugxothweni kukaMongameli uDilma Rousseff kunye nelakho ityala? Ngaba uyabubona nabuphi na ubungqina bokubandakanyeka kwamanye amazwe, ngakumbi i-U.S.?
LUIZ INÁCIO ILULA DA SILVA: [iguqulelwe] Ewe, kwathabatha phantse iminyaka engama-40 ukubonisa ukuba ngokwenene iUnited States yaba nenxaxheba kubhukuqo-mbuso lowe-1964. Ngoku, nangona ndingengomkhuseli weethiyori zeyelenqe, ndiqinisekile, kwaye abantu base-United States, abanye, abayamkeli iBrazil idlala indima ephambili kumgaqo-nkqubo wangaphandle. Kukho izinto ezinomdla ezingaqhelekanga kwiPetrobras yethu, kwaye kukho umdla kwimpembelelo yaseBrazil eLatin America nakuMzantsi Melika. Kukho izinto ezinomdla-engafuni ukubona ibhanki ye BRICS amazwe aya phambili. Kwaye kukho-umshicileli waseBrazil uhlala ethetha ngobudlelwane obusondeleyo phakathi kwe-Ofisi yeGqwetha Jikelele eBrazil kunye neSebe lezoBulungisa eUnited States malunga nemiba yePetrobras. Kwaye sizama ukuphanda. Abezomthetho baseBrazil baya kwiNkongolo yaseU.S. Bathetha neengqungquthela zaseU.S.
Kwaye konke esikufunayo kukuqhubeka nokusebenza ukuze iBrazil ibe lilizwe elizimeleyo, ilizwe elikwaziyo ukusebenzisa amandla alo ophuhliso ukuze kuxhamle abantu baseBrazil. Ndizibuza yonke imihla: Ngubani onokuba nomdla wokuzama ukutshabalalisa iPetrobras? Ngubani onokuba nomdla wokutshabalalisa ishishini lobunjineli baseBrazil? Ngubani onokuba nomdla wokutshabalalisa eyona nkampani inkulu kwiprotheni emhlabeni apha eBrazil? Ngubani onomdla kwifracking eBrazil?
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: UMongameli, uMvulo uphawula isikhumbuzo se-15th yokuhlaselwa kwe-US e-Iraq. Waluchasa olo hlaselo. Iingcinga zakho namhlanje, kunye ne-US iqhubeka nobukho bayo kwi-Iraq kunye nase-Afghanistan?
LUIZ INÁCIO ILULA DA SILVA: [iguqulelwe] Amy, ndiyaxolisa kakhulu ukuba ngoDisemba 10th, 2002, ndathetha noMongameli Bush kwi-White House, kwaye ndamxelela ukuba i-Iraq ayinazo izixhobo zekhemikhali, kuba intloko ye-arhente yamazwe ngamazwe yayingu-Brazilian, Ambassador. Bustani. Umongameli waseUnited States nenkulumbuso yaseBritani baxokisa ihlabathi, besithi kukho izixhobo ezenziwe ngemichiza eIraq. Kwaye uSaddam Hussein wayexoka kwihlabathi, ezenza ngathi unabo, xa uSaddam Hussein wayenokulisindisa ilizwe lakhe kuhlaselo lwase-US ngokucela ubukho bamazwe ngamazwe ukuba buhlole. Ke, ubuxoki obubini: ubuxoki ngurhulumente wase-US esithi kukho izixhobo zekhemikhali, kunye nobuxoki bukaSaddam Hussein ezenza ngathi unazo.
Ewe, ezi zikhokelele ekutshatyalalisweni kwelizwe, ngaphandle kokusombulula ingxaki yobunqolobi ehlabathini. Ndicinga ukuba yayilihlazo kakhulu. Yayilihlazo. Kwaye iminyaka emininzi ihambile, kwaye kuze kube namhlanje akukho mntu ukwazile ukubonisa nantoni na yezixhobo zekhemikhali e-Iraq. Kum kubonakala ngathi ekuphela kwezixhobo zekhemikhali yayizenza ngathi zikho. Kwaye ke ubugrogrisi buyaqhubeka.
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: Mongameli Lula, luthini uvavanyo lwakho lukaMongameli uDonald Trump?
LUIZ INÁCIO ILULA DA SILVA: [iguqulelwe] Andinalo uvavanyo. Ndicinga ukuba akuqhelekanga ukuba kukho umongameli weriphabliki, kwelona lizwe linamandla emhlabeni, olawula ilizwe nge-Twitter. Ndiyifumana loo nto inomdla kakhulu. Kodwa nakweyiphi na imeko, kufuneka ndimhlonele kuba wonyulwa ngabantu baseUnited States. Kwaye ukuba wonyulwa ngabantu base-United States, ngoko ke uya kulisebenzisa ixesha lakhe njengoko ethanda, kuba abantu base-United States bamnike igunya lokwenjenjalo. Andikwazi ukuhlala ndigwebe indlela uTrump alawula ngayo. Ulawula ngendlela yakhe, kwaye siza kubona ukuba kuhamba njani.
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: Iingcinga zakho kuMongameli uTrump ebiza iAfrika, iHaiti kunye namanye amazwe-ke, wayibiza iAfrika ngokuba lilizwe-”amazwe anemingxuma”?
LUIZ INÁCIO ILULA DA SILVA: [iguqulelwe] Ndicinga ukuba ukuba umntu uziphatha ngolo hlobo ekuxoxeni ngobudlelwane namanye amazwe, ngoko andiqondi ukuba umntu uyakufanelekela ukuba ngumongameli welizwe, nokuba useUnited States. Awona mazwe ahlwempuzekileyo, angenalo ithuba lokukhula kwezoqoqosho, afanele aphathwe ngembeko enkulu.
Amy, mandikuxelele into enye: Ukuba amazwe atyebileyo, ngakumbi i-United States, esele echithe ngaphezulu kwe-14 yeetriliyoni zeedola ukusombulula ingxaki yezemali ngo-2008 ngokutshona kwe-Lehman Brothers, endaweni yokusebenzisa inxalenye yaloo mali ukunceda. amazwe ase-Afrika ukuba aphuhlise-kakuhle, ukuba benze njalo, ngokuqinisekileyo, i-Afrika iya kukhula ngakumbi, idala imisebenzi emininzi, iqinisa idemokhrasi kunye nokuphucula ubomi babantu. Intlanganiso yokuqala esaba nayo ye-G20 eLondon, apho, sacebisa ukuba amazwe atyebileyo kufuneka enze utyalo-mali kumazwe ahlwempuzekileyo ukuze kudalwe imimandla emitsha enemizi-mveliso ehlabathini kunye nabathengi abatsha ehlabathini. Ngelishwa, amazwe atyebileyo aguqukela kukhuseleko kwakhona kwaye athatha ixesha elide ukusombulula ingxaki ka-2008.
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: Bendifuna ukukufundela kwi MercoPress. Ithi, “Utyelelo nentlanganiso yamasebe amabini karhulumente”—urhulumente waseBrazil—kwanikelwa ingxelo kumajelo eendaba aseBrazil. Enyanisweni, emva kwemini ngoMgqibelo ophelileyo umongameli uMichel Temer uye watyelela intloko yeNkundla Ephakamileyo yeNkundla uCarmen Lucia kwindawo ahlala kuyo, yaye ‘akuzange kuqhutywe njengenxalenye yocwangciso olusemthethweni lukaMongameli.’” Ndiyakholelwa ukuba babonwa besangana.
“Olu tyelelo lwenzeka kwiintsuku ezintlanu emva kokuba uJaji weNkundla ePhakamileyo uLuís Roberto Barroso evumele amapolisa ukuba aphande ngeerekhodi zemali zikaTemer. Kokokuqala kwimbali yeriphabliki yaseBrazil ukuba umongameli obambeleyo avulwe ngomyalelo wenkundla.
Uyazi, oku kwakusenzeka malunga nexesha elifanayo apho kwavela iingxelo zokuba umcebisi okhethekileyo wase-US, uRobert Mueller, ujonge kwi-Trump yosapho lwezemali. Kodwa bendifuna ukukubuza malunga noku, kuba yile Nkundla iPhakamileyo yaseBrazil nayo eza kube imisela ikamva lakho. Ngaba kunjalo, Mongameli Lula?
LUIZ INÁCIO ILULA DA SILVA: [iguqulelwe] Jonga, kuqala, ndicinga ukuba uMongameli uTemer angadibana noJustice Cármen Lúcia nokuba kwi-ofisi yakhe yeNkundla ePhakamileyo okanye kwi-ofisi yakhe yobongameli. Kodwa kuyabonakala ukuba babenentlanganiso efihlakeleyo.
Okwesibini, uAmy, apha eBrazil, kufuneka siphinde simise imisebenzi yamaziko. Apha eBrazil, ezopolitiko ziya zingena ezinkundleni, yaye iinkundla ziya zisiba nezopolitiko. Kwaye iziko ngalinye kufuneka libuyele kwisimo sesiqhelo. Inkundla, ngeNkundla ePhakamileyo, ingumqinisekisi womgaqo-siseko. Kwaye isebe lesigqeba liphumeza, liyaqhuba. Kwaye isebe lezomthetho liwisa umthetho. Ukuba sinokuphinda sibe nobudlelwane obuhambelanayo kunye nentlonipho, ngoko sinokuba neBrazil ibuyele kwimeko yesiqhelo.
Nam, ngokunjalo-ke, izinto ezingaqhelekanga zenzekile. Kukho iijaji ezithetha kumabonakude mihla le. Kukho inkqubo yokungahloniphi amaziko eBrazil. Inxalenye yeenkundla ikugwayimbo. Bafuna isibonelelo sezindlu esiphantse sibe ngama-4,600 ereais. Kwaye aba bantu bafumana i-30,000 reais ngenyanga, ke abayidingi isibonelelo sezindlu njengabemi baseBrazil, abangenamakhaya. Abo bantu bafuna uncedo lwezindlu.
Ke, ndiqinisekile, Amy. Ndiqinisekile ukuba kuyenzeka ukuseka kwakhona imvisiswano eBrazil. Ndiqinisekile ukuba siyakwazi ukubuyela kwisimo sezulu esifana naso ngo-2010, 2009, wonke umntu ephila ngokuvisisanayo, abantu bethetha omnye komnye, kwaye wonke umntu ophila ngokwentando yesininzi ngokwahlukeneyo.
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: Mongameli Lula, ungabanjwa nangaliphi na ixesha. Uza kwenza ntoni?
LUIZ INÁCIO ILULA DA SILVA: [iguqulelwe] Andinakubanjwa nangawuphi na umzuzu. Le nto ngawo nawuphi na umzuzu ngumnqweno kwinxalenye yeentshaba zam neentshaba zam. Ndingabanjwa kuphela xa kukho umntu ongqina ukuba ndenze ityala. Ndiqinisekile, Amy, njengoko ndithetha nawe ngoku, ndinoxolo lwengqondo olugqibeleleyo xa ndithelekiswa nabo bandimangalelayo. Ndinoxolo lwengqondo kwabamsulwa. Unokuqiniseka ukuba ndinoxolo lwengqondo kwabo bamsulwa. Naba bandimangalelayo bayayazi ukuba bayenza ngobuxoki, ngoko ke andiqondi ukuba bayakwazi ukubeka intloko phezu komqamelo ebusuku balale ngokuzolileyo ndilala nako. yonke imihla.
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: Nokuba uqhubeka uthi umsulwa, ijaji iye—inkundla igwebe ukuba unetyala kwaye ujongene nantoni? Phantse iminyaka eyi-10 entolongweni. Ke, nokuba awuvumelani nesigwebo nesibheno saliwe, kwenzekile. Ngaba ubuya kuxhathisa ukubanjwa? Ngaba ubuya kuxhathisa ukuvalelwa?
LUIZ INÁCIO ILULA DA SILVA: [iguqulelwe] Hayi. Ndisebenza ngokusekelwe kwingcamango yokuba kuya kubakho ubulungisa ngaphambi kokuba ndenze isigqibo esinjalo. Ndiqinisekile, kuba ekuphela kwento endiyijongileyo ngeli xesha kukuba bagwebe ityala lam ngokokufaneleka. INkundla ePhakamileyo kunye nenkundla yezibheno azinakuvumela ubuxoki ngokuchasene nenyaniso.
NGABA INDAODA ELUNGILE: ULuiz Inácio Lula da Silva, umongameli waseBrazil ukususela ngo-2003 ukuya ku-2010. IBrazil, ilizwe lesithandathu elinabantu abaninzi emhlabeni. ULula ngoku ugqabaza kwakhona ukuba ngumongameli. Nguye ohamba phambili ngoku, ngaphandle kokuba iinkundla zimnqande kwaye zimthumele entolongweni. Umbulelo okhethekileyo kuCharlie Roberts.
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Nikela