SP- Njingalwazi Chomsky, uzifumana phi iicontours zengxaki ekhoyo ngoku eYiphutha, Tunisia nakuMbindi Mpuma uphela?
I-NC- Umthombo wengxaki kwilizwe lama-Arabhu ubuyela umva kakhulu kwaye iyafana nale siyifumana kwilizwe elalifudula lingamathanga. Eneneni yachazwa ngokucacileyo ngeminyaka yee-1950 nguMongameli Eisenhower nabasebenzi bakhe. Wayebambe ingxoxo yangaphakathi eye yachazwa ukususela ngoko. U-Eisenhower wabuza abasebenzi bakhe ukuba kutheni kukho, oko wakubiza ngokuthi "iphulo lentiyo" nxamnye nathi kwihlabathi lama-Arabhu. Hayi phakathi koorhulumente, abathe kratya okanye abathobileyo, kodwa phakathi kwabantu. Kwaye iBhunga leSizwe loKhuseleko, lelona qumrhu liphambili lokucwangcisa, livelise imemorandam ngalo mba. Yathi kukho imbono kwilizwe lama-Arabhu ukuba iUnited States ixhasa oozwilakhe abakhohlakeleyo, ivala idemokhrasi kunye nophuhliso; kwaye senza oku kuba sifuna ukugcina ulawulo kwimithombo yabo - kule meko, amandla. Uye waqhubeleka wathi umbono uchanekile kwaye ngaphezu koko, yiloo nto ebekufanele ukuba siyayenza.
Umgaqo osisiseko awubambeli nje ilizwe lama-Arabhu. Ichazwe ngokufutshane ngexesha loqhankqalazo olumangalisayo lwase-Egypt nguMarwan Muasher. Uligosa eliphezulu laseJordani ngoku oyintloko yophando kuMbindi Mpuma weCarnegie Endowment. Uthe kukho imfundiso ekhoyo ethi logama nje abantu bethule, bengenzi nto, belawulwa, akukho ngxaki. Senza nantoni na esiyithandayo. Mhlawumbi bayasithiya, kodwa akunamsebenzi, kuba sinokwenza into esiyithandayo. Lo ngumgaqo obambe ilizwe lama-Arabhu, eIndiya, ubambe ekhaya eMelika; ngumgaqo omiselweyo wolawulo. Ewe, ngamanye amaxesha abantu bayawaqhawula amatyathanga kwaye ke kufuneka wenze uhlengahlengiso. Kwenzeka ntoni eYiputa ngoku ngumzekelo omangalisayo, kodwa awungomzekelo ongaqhelekanga. Kuye kwakho imeko emva kwemeko apho iUnited States kunye namanye amagunya obukhosi ngaphambili aye anyanzeliswa ukuba alahle inkxaso kuzwilakhe othandwayo ngenxa yokuba wayengenakukwazi ukugcinwa. Ke ngoku kukho iplani yemidlalo eqhelekileyo esetyenziswayo eJiphutha. Uxhasa uzwilakhe ixesha elide kangangoko ngokwamkela iMfundiso kaMuasher. Yonke into ithule, ngoko akukho ngxaki. Xa uzwilakhe engasakwazi ukuxhaswa, umtyhalela ecaleni, ukhuphe izibhengezo zeReagan zothando lwakho lwedemokhrasi kunye nenkululeko kwaye uqhubeke nokuzama ukumisela kwakhona inkqubo yangaphambili kangangoko unako. Nantso into esiyibona isenzeka ngoku eYiphutha, kwaye njengoko benditshilo, iyenzeka ngokuphindaphindiweyo.
SP - Ngaba ubona kwangaphambili uqhankqalazo olufanayo eIndiya? Okanye, yintoni kwiimbono zakho ebambe iIndiya?
NC – Masithathe iIndiya. Okokuqala, kukho uqhushululu olukhulu. Iindawo ezinkulu zaseIndiya zivutha amadangatye. Ngokusisiseko imimandla yezizwe ikwimvukelo. Inxalenye enkulu yoMkhosi waseIndiya ibandakanyeka ekuzameni ukubacinezela.
SP - Ngoko ubona ukuhambelana phakathi kovukelo?
NC - hmm.. Ndicinga ukuba owona mbuzo e-Indiya unokuba ... Ndithetha ukuba bekukho, uyazi, le India idumileyo eqaqambileyo. Yinyani kwinxalenye yabemi. I-Indiya inkulu kakhulu, ngoko ke icandelo layo elikhulu. Kwelinye icala, mhlawumbi ikota yesithathu yabemi ishiywe ngaphandle. Inani lamawaka ezigidi likhula ngokukhawuleza njengenani labalimi abazibulalayo. Kwaye umbuzo ofana neYiputa awuyi kuba yinto eyenzeka kwimimandla yezizwe, ndiyacinga, njengokuba kuthekani ngamakhulu ezigidi zabantu ababandezeleka kakhulu.
SP – Ngokuqinisekileyo. Kukho umsantsa omkhulu weklasi.
NC - Kukho umsantsa omkhulu weklasi. I-India iyamangalisa, enyanisweni. Ukuba ukubandezeleka eMzantsi Asia ku...
SP – Umsantsa uyakhula ngoku...
I-NC - Ukukhula kwayo kunye nokubi kakhulu kwihlabathi. Kudala ixesha elide. Ukuba ukhangele i-Index yoPhuhliso loLuntu yeZizwe eziManyeneyo, ukugqibela kwam ukujonga, i-Indiya yayimalunga ne-120 okanye into enjalo ekuqaleni kwezinto ezibizwa ngokuba yi-reforms kwiminyaka eyi-20 edlulileyo.
SP – Ngoku umgangatho wehle ngakumbi.
NC - Ewe, ngoku umbuzo ngowokuba kuya kude kube nini la manani makhulu abantu engenzi nto kwaye bengenamdla ukuze kuhoywe iinkxalabo zabo.
U-SP – uNjingalwazi Chomsky, uArundhati Roy wacinezelwa ngezityholo zokuvukela urhulumente ngokuthetha ngelungelo labantu baseKashmiri lokuzikhethela. Yintoni oyithathayo ngokuzikhethela, ngakumbi kumxholo weKashmir?
I-NC - Okokuqala ndimele nditsho ukuba i-Arundhati Roy kufuneka ihlonishwe kakhulu eIndiya njengophawu lwento enokuba yinto enkulu malunga nelizwe. Into yokuba ubekwe ityala lokuvukela urhulumente ngumsindo. Yaye umsindo nentiyo elungelelanisiweyo nxamnye nayo ilihlazo ngokwenene. Kodwa nguArundhati Roy, umntu omangalisayo.
Ngokumalunga neKashmir, iingxaki zibuyela kwiSahlulo. Kwaye kukho uxanduva oluninzi macala onke. Ukuya eIndiya, eIndiya, ngokuqinisekileyo wala ukuvumela uvoto olwaluyimeko yokwahlulahlula. (Ngaloo ndlela, i-Indiya) ngokusisiseko yawuthatha umhlaba kwaye (olandelayo) impixano yakhokelela kuMda woLawulo. Kuye kwakho ingcinezelo nogonyamelo oluninzi. Ngasekupheleni kweminyaka yee-1980 kwabakho unyulo kodwa lwalunobuqhophololo ngokupheleleyo. Yakhokelela kuqhankqalazo olwathi lwayekiswa ngogonyamelo olugqithisileyo. Amashumi amawaka abantu baye babulawa kwiindawo ezilawulwa yiIndiya eKashmir. Iingcungcuthekiso, izenzo zenkohlakalo ziye zaba manyumnyezi kakhulu. URoy ubonisa kwinqaku lakhe lamva nje ukuba lo ngowona mmandla unomkhosi omkhulu emhlabeni. Sele kukho olunye unyulo olulawulwayo oluzama ukumisela ulawulo lwaseIndiya kwaye nabani na olujongileyo angabona ukuba kukho uxinzelelo olumandla kuhlobo olunye okanye olunye lokuzimela okanye ukuzilawula. Inokuthatha iindlela ezininzi. Indlela ekufanele kusetyenzwe ngayo asiyongxaki nje engenamsebenzi. Kodwa unokucinga ngeendlela apho isiphumo esinengqiqo sinokulawulwa kwiindawo ezahlukeneyo zeKashmir, (ekubeni) imimandla eyahlukeneyo yaseKashmir inomdla kunye neenjongo ezahlukeneyo.
SP - Uyibona njani intshukumo yeMaoist eIndiya? Ngaba ulibona njengedabi elilwela ilungelo labantu bomthonyama lokuzilawula okanye ngaba ubona kulo, umzabalazo wamakomanisi, wotshintsho olululo lokulawula uqoqosho lwezopolitiko?
NC - Ewe, okokuqala mandingenzi ngathi ndinolwazi olunzulu ngale nto. Andi. Kodwa ngokokuqonda kwam, zombini. Kukho abavukeli beMaoist. Okubizwayo. Bazibiza ngokuba ngamaMaoist, nokuba yintoni na enokuthi ithethe. Kodwa kukho isiseko phakathi kwabemi. Ezi ziindawo zezizwe ezininzi kwaye ziphakathi kwabantu abacinezelekileyo eIndiya. Banobomi, banoluntu, uluntu olusebenzayo; emahlathini, kwimimandla yezizwe. Kukho iinzame zikaRhulumente, ngokusisiseko ukuhlasela loo mimandla ukutshabalalisa isiseko sobomi babo kunye noluntu ngokutsalwa kwezibonelelo, imigodi njalo njalo. Kwaye bayaxhathisa. Bafuna ukugcina ubomi babo. Iqhubeka kwihlabathi liphela.
Ngokomzekelo, ngeli hlobo laseHlotyeni ndandikuMzantsi Columbia ndityelela iilali ezisengozini yokuphela. Ngokwenyani, iColumbia inabona bantu baninzi bafuduswa ngaphakathi kwihlabathi emva kweSudan, uninzi lusuka kuhlaselo lweendawo zemveli. Nabemi belali bazama ukwenza into efanayo. Bazama ukufumana iindlela zoku…enye ilali endiyindwendweleyo izama ukulondoloza amahlathi akufuphi akufuphi neentaba namahlathi angatshatyalaliswayo emigodini nto leyo eya kutshabalalisa uluntu lwazo, itshabalalise ubomi babo, ithabathe nemithombo yamanzi. Bangamahlwempu, kodwa banobomi obusebenzayo. Bayabufuna obo bomi yaye banezizathu ezininzi zokuba nabo. Kwaye oko kwenzeka kulo lonke ihlabathi. Kwenzeka eUnited States. Kwi-Appalachia, ukususwa komphezulu weentaba kuyindlela ephantsi kakhulu yokumbiwa kwamalahle, kodwa kutshabalalisa iintlambo, kutshabalalisa imilambo, kutshabalalise i-ecology, kutshabalalisa uluntu kwaye abantu baxhathise. Ndicinga ukuba, okwenzekayo kwimimandla yezizwe (e-Indiya) kuyinxalenye enkulu yomzekelo wale meko yehlabathi yokunyuka kobushushu bemithombo yobutyebi, nokuba yintoni na isiphumo kokusingqongileyo nakubantu.
SP – Ewe. Kwaye kwakhona, inokuqhubekeka ngokwembali yokuqonda abantu bomthonyama baseIndiya. Ukusukela ngeminyaka yoo-1960 ukuya phambili, bekukho imibutho yenguqu elungelelanisiweyo phakathi kwabacinezelweyo…
NC - Ewe, ukusuka kwiintshukumo zeNaxalite. Oko, ngokuqinisekileyo, kwakunzulu kakhulu. Kwezinye iindawo ezifana ne-West Bengal, yayiyeyona nto iphambili ekhokelele kuhlaziyo olubalulekileyo lomhlaba, ekusekweni kwee-communes zabalimi njalo njalo. Kwakhona, andazi nto ingako ngayo kodwa ndikhe ndabatyelela ndikunye nomhlobo wezoqoqosho kwezolimo nonguMphathiswa wezeMali kuRhulumente endakhe ndamazi esafunda apha. Siye sandwendwela i-panchayat eWest Bengal kwaye zininzi izinto ezichukumisayo ezenzekayo. Ezi ziziphumo zovukelo lukaNaxalite…ezinye iziphumo bezinoburhalarhume kwaye zikhohlakele.
I-SP - Amazwe esizwe akhula ngokufana namaqumrhu amakhulu. Ngaba ngumkhwa wokuhlala okanye ucinga ukuba ukudityaniswa kwehlabathi kuya kuba nokubuyela umva okuyimfuneko kunye nokuwohloka kwembali?
Ndicinga ukuba zininzi izinto ezinzima ezenzekayo kwihlabathi liphela. Andiqondi ukuba yinyani leyo kuzo zonke izizwe. Ngokomzekelo, ngokuphawulekayo kwiLatin America, kukho kwiminyaka eyi-10 edlulileyo okanye kunjalo, amanyathelo abalulekileyo ekudityanisweni, ukuya kwinkululeko, ekuziseni inkitha yabemi kwinkqubo yezopolitiko, ejongene neengxaki ezinzima zangaphakathi, kungekhona njengeIndiya, enentlupheko nentlupheko enkulu kwisiqithi sobutyebi. Oko kukwelinye icala. Ukuba uthatha izityebi, eziphuhlileyo, ezinye zamazwe aseAsia, zihamba ngeendlela zazo. Thatha ilizwe elifana ne-United States, iNgilani kunye noninzi lweYurophu - into oyichazile…okwenzekayo kunokuchazwa ngolo hlobo kodwa ngokwahlukileyo kancinci. Ndithetha into ebisenzeka kuninzi lwehlabathi, oku kubandakanya iChina kunye neIndiya ngokunjalo- lutshintsho lwamandla kwihlabathi-kude nabantu abasebenzayo ukuya ezandleni zabanini, abaphathi, abatyali-mali, izinto eziphezulu, iingcali ezihlawulwa kakhulu, kwaye nangokunjalo. Kukho ulwahlulo olubukhali kakhulu lweklasi. Uyibona yonke indawo.
SP – Ngokuqinisekileyo.
I-NC – e-United States, yeyona nto iphezulu yokungalingani ukusukela ngeminyaka yoo-1920. Kwaye ukuba sijongisisa, lelona liphezulu kakhulu, kuba ukungalingani ubukhulu becala kuphumela ekutyebiseni okuphezulu kwecandelo elincinci labemi. Iqhezu lepesenti enye (ebandakanya) abaphathi, abanini, abaphathi be-hedge fund, njalo njalo. Kwaye le ngqwalasela yamandla ezoqoqosho kwicandelo lenkqubo yenkampani, ngokunyuka icandelo lezemali, lihamba kunye namandla ezopolitiko. Amandla oqoqosho agxininisiweyo anefuthe elikhulu kwinkqubo yehlabathi. Kwaye eneneni, imigaqo-nkqubo yequmrhu likarhulumente kule minyaka ingama-30 idlulileyo, isukela kwimigaqo-nkqubo yezemali efana nerhafu ukuya kwimithetho karhulumente kulawulo lweshishini njalo njalo, iyilwe ukuze kudalwe olu hlobo lwenkqubo yengcinezelo eyahlulelene kabukhali. Kwaye oku kuyinyani kwaye kukho ukungoneliseki okuninzi kunye nomsindo. Ayifani neLizwe leSithathu kodwa abantu abakumazwe atyebileyo babone imivuzo yabo idodobala iminyaka engama-30 ngelixa kukho ubutyebi obuninzi. Ubomi abukho bubi, kodwa bunzima. Ukungaqeshwa kwabantu abaninzi kusekwinqanaba lokudandatheka kungekho themba lakuba kutshintshe nantoni na. Olu luhlobo olugqithisileyo eUnited States. Kodwa iyafana eNgilani nakwinqanaba elithile, kwenye indawo. Kwiindawo ezinjengeTshayina, masithi nawe unomahluko ogqithisileyo wobutyebi, obunye bobona bubi emhlabeni. I-Indiya yiklasi ngokwayo ...
SP - Ngaba abantu abaninzi bayaqonda ukuba kukho uluntu lodidi olukhoyo okanye ngaba kukho ukukhanyela?
I-NC - Iklasi yezoshishino, ithi e-United States, inolwazi oluphezulu. Enyanisweni, bangooMarxists. Ukuba ufunda uncwadi lweshishini, lufundeka njengeNcwadi encinci eBomvu. Bakhankanya iingozi zenginginya elungelelanisiweyo, iingozi abazenzayo koosomashishini njalo njalo. Kwaye balwa imfazwe yodidi olukrakra. Kwaye kule minyaka idlulileyo kuye kwaba yinto emangalisayo. Phakathi kwabanye abantu, ibali layo elixubeneyo. Ke kwakhona, thatha iUnited States. Igama elithi udidi phantse alinakuchazwa. I-United States lelinye lamazwe ambalwa apho…
SP – …Iklasi ligama elingavumelekanga.
NC – ….Ligama elingafunwayo. Wonke umntu ukumgangatho ophakathi. Ndinomhlobo ofundisa iHistory kwikholeji yaseburhulumenteni. Ngosuku lokuqala lwesiqingatha sonyaka, uhlala ebuza abafundi ukuba bazichaza njani ngokwemigaqo yeklasi. Iimpendulo zithi, 'ukuba utata usentolongweni, ndiphantsi komgangatho. Ukuba ubawo ngumgcini wempahla ndikumgangatho ophakathi, ukuba ubawo ngumthengisi wempahla, ndikumgangatho ophezulu. Kodwa ingcamango yodidi ngokwengqiqo yalo yemveli ikhutshiwe kwiintloko zabantu. Kodwa nokuba banaso isigama sayo okanye akunjalo, bayayazi. Abantu bayazi ukuba bayayikhupha okanye bayayithatha. Bayazi ukuba banendima ekuthathweni kwezigqibo okanye abanayo. Kwaye ezo zintlukwano zodidi.
SP – Umyalezo wakho kubafundi beKindle?
NC - Umyalezo...umyalezo omnye awuyikuyithatha inkcazo nzulu kakhulu. Ngapha koko, jonga okwenzekayo ngoku eTahrir Square e-Egypt. Owona mboniso unomtsalane wentshukumo edumileyo yenkalipho nokuzimisela endinokukhumbula. Abazilandeli iinkokeli. Ngapha koko, eyona nto imangalisayo, yindlela ezilungelelaniswe ngayo. Abantu babumba uluntu lwezokhuselo ukuze bazikhusele kwizigebenga zikaRhulumente, benza amaqela okuphuhlisa imigaqo-nkqubo, ukufikelela kwabanye. Nantso indlela izinto ezenzeka ngayo. Ngamanye amaxesha, uyazi, iintshukumo ezidumileyo ziyaphuhla kwaye iinkokeli ziyavela. Ngokuqhelekileyo yinto embi. Akukho mntu kufuneka ajonge nakubani na ukuze afumane isikhokelo kunye neengcebiso. Ngokusisiseko, unokufumana iimpendulo. Ababalulekileyo baya kuvela ebantwini ngokwabo.
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