NgoMeyi 3, 2002, isazi seelwimi saseMIT kunye nomlweli wezopolitiko uNoam Chomsky wadliwano-ndlebe yiCommonSense: I-Intercollegiate Journal of Humanism kunye neFreethought.
CS: Wenze umzekeliso phakathi kongquzulwano lwasePalestine kunye nocalucalulo lwaseMzantsi Afrika โ ucinga ukuba iiyunivesithi kufuneka ziphendule kwaSirayeli ngendlela ezamphendula ngayo uMzantsi Afrika? Ngokukodwa, ucinga ukuba iiyunivesithi kufuneka zihlukane neenkampani ezenza ishishini kwaSirayeli?
Chomsky: Iimeko azifani. KuMzantsi Afrika, eyona nto ibalulekileyo yayingekokuchithakala eyunivesithi, nto leyo yayiyinkqubo ecothayo nehlala ixesha elide, njengoxinzelelo lokuqinisekisa ukuba urhulumente wethu akathabathi nxaxheba kwizenzo zolwaphulo-mthetho. Kwakukho uthintelo lweengalo kunye neoli ngokuchasene noMzantsi Afrika, umzekelo. Ukukhutshwa kweDyunivesithi kwakuyinto encinci kwisikimu sezinto. Kwimeko yasePalestine, imfuno ebalulekileyo kwizibongozo kufuneka ibe ngumnxeba wokunqunyanyiswa kokuthengiswa kwezixhobo ngaphandle kokuba iimeko ezithile ezincinci zingafezekiswa. Loo mnxeba ubukwizikhalazo endizisayinileyo. CS: Kodwa ukuba abafundi bafuna ukuba ngamatsha ntliziyo asekuhlaleni, ucinga ukuba ukubiza ukukhutshwa kweyunivesithi yindlela esebenzayo? Okanye ngaba abafundi bafanele bagxininise imigudu yabo kwimibandela yelizwe? UChomsky: Ndicinga ukuba ngumsebenzi osengqiqweni kodwa akufuneki sibe nenkohliso โ yindlela engathanga ngqo echaphazela indlela yokuziphatha yamazwe. Mnye umahluko osisiseko phakathi koMzantsi Afrika noSirayeli. Ngelixa, i-US yayixhasa ulawulo localucalulo, yayingeyiyo eyona nto ibalulekileyo ekugcineni ucalucalulo. Kwimeko yakwaSirayeli, nangona kunjalo, iUnited States yeyona nto ibalulekileyo ekugcineni umsebenzi. Oko kufanele kuchaphazele ukhetho lwethu. Kufuneka zibhekiswe ngqo kurhulumente wase-US. Ucalucalulo yayilulwaphulo-mthetho, kodwa wawungenakugxeka ucalucalulo kwizigqibo ezenziwe eWashington. Kwelinye icala, unokugxeka umsebenzi kwizigqibo ezenziwe eWashington- lowo ngumahluko obalulekileyo, kwaye kufanele kufake umbala kwindlela esikhetha ukwalathisa ngayo imisebenzi yethu. Umsebenzi ukhangeleka ngathi yinto eyenzekayo phaya, kodwa ngokwenene yinto eyenzekayo apha.
CS: Ukusebenzisana nokuthelekisa noMzantsi Afrika, kubonakala ngathi isisombululo esifana neso kwingxabano yase-Israel ne-Palestina iya kuba sisisombululo sombuso omnye kunye namaSirayeli kunye namaPalestina abahlala kunye. Kodwa usithande isisombululo seemeko ezimbini. Kutheni kunjalo?
Chomsky: Imeko yahluke ngokupheleleyo kwizinto ezininzi. EMzantsi Afrika, iqaqobana labamhlophe yayiliqaqobana elincinane. Ukuba uninzi lwabantu abantsundu eMzantsi Afrika, itsho iAfrican National Congress, belukhethe isisombululo sombuso-mbini, lowo bebezakufumana i80% yomhlaba banike abelungu i20%, bendingayiphikisanga. Akukho kum ukwenza isigqibo, kwaye oko kuyinyaniso kwimeko yakwa-Israel-Palestine. Olwam uluvo lwelokuba isisombululo sombuso omnye asilunganga kwaye ndibambe eso sikhundla iminyaka engamashumi amathandathu. Kwakukho ixesha kumashumi eminyaka eyadlulayo apho bekukho ezinye iindlela ezingcono, kodwa akukho zikhetho zaneleyo ngoku kwaye akukho cala likufunayo.
CS: Ucinga ukuba ungquzulwano kuMbindi Mpuma lumalunga nonqulo?
Chomsky: Ayithethi ngonqulo; inkolo inqumla iindlela ezininzi. AmaYuda ehlabathi kunye nenkolo anokuba neenjongo ezahlukeneyo kwizinto ezininzi, kodwa bobabini bafuna indawo eyahlukileyo apho bebaninzi kwaye balawula izinto. Kukwanjalo nangabantu basePalestina abangakholelwayo kunqulo nabonqulo. Abantu abaninzi kumacala omabini bathanda izinto zonqulo
CS: Abanye abantu bathi uhlaselo lwangoSeptemba 11 lubonisa ubungozi bonqulo, okanye ngokubanzi, ingozi yokuxuba unqulo nezobupolitika noorhulumente. Ngaba ucinga ukuba luhlalutyo oluchanekileyo lwemeko?
Chomsky: NgoSeptemba 11 yindawo yokuqala yobuxoki kule meko. Ngenene kufuneka sijonge kwiminyaka yoo-1980 ukuze sifumane ubungqina bokuxhasa le ngcamango. Kwiminyaka engamashumi amabini eyadlulayo, iCIA yaqala ukuxhasa kunye nokuqeqesha abona babulali babalaseleyo enokubafumana. Hayi ukunceda ama-Afghan-obeya kuba yinto efanelekileyo, umzamo osemthethweni-kodwa ukulimaza amaRashiya. Iziphumo zeAfghanistan zazimbi kakhulu. Abona babulali bangcono kakhulu iCIA yayinokufunyanwa ngeenjongo zabo yayingabo bakhohlakeleyo, amaSilamsi aqatha asuka kuMntla Afrika, kwiPeninsula yaseArabia, nakwezinye iindawo. Baqokelelana, babaqeqesha kwaye babaxhobisa, beyazi kakuhle into ababephezu kwayo. Ewe, oko yayikukuxhaphaza inkolo. Enyanisweni, ubuSilamsi bobufundamentali buxhaswe kakhulu kwaye buqaliswe ngamandla angaphandle. Ngokufuthi yayisisixhobo sokulwa nemikhosi yehlabathi. Ndithetha ukuthi, xa u-Israel wahlasela iLebhanon ngo-1982, injongo, ngokucacileyo, yayikukujongela phantsi iPLO yelizwe, yobuzwe, eyayicinezela uthethwano malunga neMimandla eHlangeneyo, kwaye uSirayeli wayengayifuni loo nto. Ke, u-Israyeli waphumelela ukujongela phantsi i-PLO yelizwe okwethutyana, kodwa waphelela kwi-Hezbollah ezandleni zabo. Kwenzeka into efanayo kwiMimandla eThilelweyo. Izinto zonqulo, ezaphela ziyiHamas, ngokwenene zaxhaswa nguSirayeli ngokuchasene nezizwe zehlabathi.
CS: Ngaba ucinga ukuba kukho izifundo esinokuzifunda kuloo mizekelo yase-US?
Chomsky: UbuKristu be-Fundamentalist e-US buyingozi enkulu, kodwa kukho iimpembelelo ezibanzi. Izifundo ekufanele sizifunde kwiziganeko zoo-1980 endisandula kuzichaza kukuba akufuneki - thina okanye abanye abantu - sisebenzise amandla ukuzama ukufikelela kwiinjongo zethu, nokuba loo mandla abandakanya ukugaya amaSilamsi abukhali okanye abantu abafuna ukuthatha iintambo. ihlabathi. Xa imikhosi yeContra eyaququzelelwa yiUnited States ngeminyaka yee-1980 yaqhubela phambili uhlaselo olukhulu lwabanqolobi eNicaragua, yayingengobantu bakholelwa kwizinto ezisisiseko, kodwa imiphumo yayimibi ngolo hlobo.
CS: Ngaba iZionism namhlanje ilingana nobuhlanga?
UChomsky: Hayi, ukuziphatha akulingani nobuhlanga. IZionism igubungela izinto ezininzi ezahlukeneyo. Izikhundla endiziphetheyo ngoku kwakukade kusithiwa yiZionist. Ngaba babenobuhlanga? Kaloku, kwakukho inkalo yobuhlanga kubo. Kukho ucalucalulo kwindawo endihlala kuyo โ omnye umntu wayehlala apho phambi kokuba agxothwe. Yinyani leyo kuthi sonke. Kodwa asifuni ukusebenzisa ucalucalulo ngobuhlanga. Zininzi izinto ezingalunganga ehlabathini ezinokuthi zibandakanye iingxabano zobuhlanga nenkcubeko nezinye, kodwa asizibizi ngobuhlanga.
CS: Wahlula njani phakathi kobunqolobi obulungileyo nobubi okanye, mhlawumbi, ubunqolobi obuyimfuneko nobungeyomfuneko? Okanye ngaba ucinga ukuba ubunqolobi ligama nje elibi elimele lilahlwe?
Chomsky: Andiqondi ukuba kukho ubugrogrisi obulungileyo. Kukho ungquzulwano olusesikweni nolungekho mthethweni apho kusetyenziswa amanyathelo angekho mthethweni afana nobunqolobi, kodwa oko akwenzi ubunqolobi bube busemthethweni. Umzekelo, i-American Revolution yayiyimbangela, kodwa kwakukho ubunqolobi obuninzi obabandakanyekayo, kwaye yayingeyiyo loo nto. Ukuba bekukho umbutho wenkululeko wesizwe walo naluphi na uhlobo owawungabandakanyi ubunqolobi, ndingathanda ukuva ngayo.
CS: Ezinye izinto ze-anti-globalization movement zisebenzise ukutshatyalaliswa kwepropati njengeqhinga, ngakumbi kwimiboniso emikhulu efana ne-Seattle. Ucinga ukuba kufanelekile okanye kuluncedo?
Chomsky: Enye into, andinakuyibiza ngokuba yintshukumo echasene nehlabathi jikelele; elo ligama elaqanjwa ngabo bafuna ukulandela eyona ndlela ibalaseleyo yokudityaniswa kwehlabathi. Abantu abachasayo endiya kubabiza ngokuba "i-investor rights globalization" abachasi ukudityaniswa kwehlabathi. Akukho mntu ndimaziyo ochasene ne-globalization. Ngokuqinisekileyo ayingowaKhohlo kunye nemibutho yabasebenzi - zazisekwe kwingqikelelo yokusebenzelana kwezizwe ngezizwe, kwaye olo luhlobo lokudityaniswa kwehlabathi. Ngaba abo bachasa uhlobo lwangoku lwamalungelo abatyali-zimali kunye nokuhlanganiswa kwamazwe ngamazwe basebenzise umonakalo wepropati njengeqhinga? Andicingi njalo. Liqhinga elithandabuzekayo kangangoko. Naluphi na uhlobo lobundlobongela obuchasene nempahla okanye abantu kufuneka buthethelelwe, kwaye andiboni sizathu.
CS: Kufuneka sizibeke njani iinjongo zethu kwizenzo kubomi bemihla ngemihla? Umzekelo, ungathenga ikofu e-Starbucks?
Chomsky: Andazi kakhulu ngeStarbucks, ngumbuzo onzima ukuwuphendula. Kodwa ngaba sifanele sisebenzise imigaqo yethu? Ewe, sifanele, nangona kukho imida ecacileyo. Awunakuphila ubomi bobungcwele umzuzu ngamnye, uqinisekisa ukuba akukho nto uyenzayo eya kwenzakalisa nawuphi na umntu. Yinto engenakwenzeka leyo ngokwasemzimbeni. Kufuneka wenze ukhetho, kwaye kufuneka ubeke izinto eziphambili ngokubaluleka malunga nokuba angakanani amandla oza kuwenza ukuzama ukuphucula ihlabathi - ayinakuba yi-100% yexesha lakho.
CS: Ngeendlela ezininzi ezahlukeneyo zokuphucula ihlabathi kunye neengxaki ezifana namalungelo ezilwanyana kunye nendlala yehlabathi, amatsha ntliziyo kufuneka abonise njani izinto eziphambili kuwo?
Chomsky: Kufuneka uhambe nezinto ezikukhathazayo, nento ocinga ukuba ibalulekile. Unokwenza ityala lokuba eyona nto ibalulekileyo emhlabeni ngoku kukuthintela ukulwa nendawo kuba oko kunokutshabalalisa umhlaba ngokukhawuleza. Unokwenza ityala lokuba eyona nto ibalulekileyo kukuthintela ukutshatyalaliswa kwendalo kuba oko kunokuphelisa iimeko zobukho bomntu obusebenzayo kwizizukulwana ezimbalwa. Okanye ungenza ityala ukuba eyona nto ibalulekileyo kukuba, eUnited States, kukho izigidi zabantu abalambileyo, kwaye kwihlabathi jikelele, kufutshane nebhiliyoni yabo. Abantu kufuneka benze isigqibo ngento ebalulekileyo kubo, beqwalasela ukuba bangoobani na kunye noko banako ukukufeza. Awukwazi ukwenza yonke into, kwaye akukho ndlela yokubeka ezi ngxaki.
CS: Iidyunivesiti zithi uxanduva lwazo kukufundisa abafundi, nto leyo ebangela ukuba bangakhathazwa zizinto โzokuhlalisanaโ ezifana nemivuzo yokuphila notyalo-mali oluyingozi. Ngaba ucinga ukuba ichanekile kwaye yintoni amava akho eMIT?
Chomsky: Yintoni eyunivesithi? Iyunivesiti yinto engabonakaliyo. Yingqokelela yabantu abadibanayo ngenjongo ethile, kwaye phakathi kwabo bantu kukho abafundi, ifakhalthi kunye nabasebenzi, kwaye kufuneka bathathe isigqibo malunga nokuba yintoni na. Njengelungu leyunivesithi, ndikholelwa ukuba esinye seenjongo zethu kufanele ibe kukuba abantu banemivuzo efanelekileyo. Qaphela ukuba ukuhlawula umvuzo ophilayo asiyonto eyenziwa yiyunivesithi, yinto eyenziwa lifakhalthi kunye nabafundi. Iyunivesiti ayingomthombo wemali ongenasiphelo, inobutyebi obuthile obunokusetyenziselwa iinjongo ezithile. Ukuba zisetyenziselwa injongo enye, azisetyenziselwa enye injongo. Ke ukuba abafundi bayawuxhasa umvuzo ophilayo, njengoko ndicinga ukuba kufanelekile, kufuneka baqonde ukuba le mali ayiphumi kumthombo ongapheliyo. Iphuma kwiziko elikhoyo elinezixhobo ezisikelwe umda - ukuba ezi zibonelelo zihamba ekuhlawuleni imivuzo yokuphila, aziyi kuya kwezinye izinto.
CS: Abaphathi beYunivesithi bathi luxanduva lwabo lokuthembeka kubafundi bangaphambili nakwabanye ukubona ukuba izixhobo zaseyunivesithi zisetyenziswa ngendlela ethile: kwimfundo yabafundi.
Chomsky: Basenokuthi, kodwa kukwamkela umfanekiso weyunivesithi endingaqondi ukuba kufuneka siwuvume. Ithi iyunivesiti liziko lobuzwilakhe eliphethwe ngabemi bangaphandle abathatha isigqibo malunga nento abaza kuyenza. Ukuba bagqiba kwelokuba iyunivesiti ifanele isetyenziselwe ukuqeqesha abanqolobi, yiloo nto kanye ekufanele yenziwe yiyunivesithi. Andivumelani naloo nto, kwaye andiqondi ukuba akukho mntu uvumelana nayo. Iyunivesiti ngabantu abathatha inxaxheba kuyo. Kuyinyani ukuba isekwe njengomsebenzi weshishini, kodwa yiloo nto esifanele ukuba sikhathazeke ngayo. Ukuba yiyunivesithi yoluntu, ngaba sinokuthi indlu yowiso-mthetho inelungelo lokugqiba ngento eyenziwa yiyunivesithi ngelixa abo bathatha inxaxheba bengenalo? Iyunivesiti eqhutywa ngokundilisekileyo ishiya ukwenza izigqibo ezandleni zabathathi-nxaxheba. Thatha idyunivesiti yam, ebucala ngokobuchwephesha: akukho mntu unokuphupha ngokuvumela abaphathiswa ukuba bangene baqalise izifundo eziyalelayo. Ukuba luxanduva lolawulo lokuphendula kubaphathiswa kutheni bengayi kuvumela loo nto?
CS: Ingxoxo yakho kunye noMichel Foucault ibonakala ifanekisela umngeni wengqondo owenziwe yi-postmodernism - ukuya kokubini nasekhohlo. Ngaba ucinga ukuba i-postmodernism "yingozi" kumxholo we-academy okanye ngaba i-activism?
UChomsky: Oku kwakuyiminyaka eyi-30 edlulileyo, kwaye andiqondi ukuba uFoucault wayeza kuzibiza ngokuba yi-postmodernist. Andiqondi ukuba yimiba eye yavela kwingxoxo-mpikiswano leyo. Andazi nokuba yintoni i-postmodernism. Kukho abantu abazibiza ngokuba zii-postmodernists. Ndazifunda. Ngamanye amaxesha ndifumana into enomdla kwaye iluncedo, ngamanye amaxesha ndifumana izinto ezingaqondakaliyo nezingabalulekanga. Ndicinga ukuba amagalelo abo kufuneka avavanywe ngokwawo, ngaphandle kokuba ubanika lelebhile. Ukuba undibuza ukuba yintoni i-postmodernism, andikwazanga ukukuxelela. Kwihlabathi lengqondo kukho utyekelo lokufunxa into ayenzayo. Amaxesha amaninzi icacile kwaye ilula. Kukho iindawo ze-quantum physics apho uthathe uqeqesho olukhethekileyo ukuze uqonde ukuba kuqhubeka ntoni, kodwa uninzi lwento eyenziweyo ifikeleleka ngokulula kubantu abanomdla ngokwaneleyo wokuyilandela kwaye bafumanise ngayo.
CS: Abanye abantu abalwela amalungelo abasetyhini baphikisa ngelithi ngokuthatha inxaxheba emtshatweni ubani uqhubela phambili inkqubo yengcinezelo echasene nabasetyhini. Ingaba uyavumelana?
UChomsky: Hayi, andinakuyenza loo nto, ekubeni ndineminyaka engama-53 nditshatile. Kunokuba njalo, kodwa lukhetho olo. Akukho nto icinezelayo ngokwemvelo ngomtshato, kwaye enyanisweni ubudlelwane obungengabo emtshatweni bunokuba nengcinezelo. Ukuba ulandela loo ngxoxo ngenene, ngoko ukwabelana ngesondo kufanele ukuba kube ngumthetho, ulwimi kufuneka lukhutshwe. Ulwimi lusetyenziswe njengobuchule bengcinezelo ngonaphakade. Sifanele siyeke ukuthetha.
CS: URichard Posner kutshanje upapashe incwadi equka ukuhlelwa kwabaphezulu kwi-100 yeenkcuba-buchopho zikawonke-wonke. Ngaba ucinga ukuba kusempilweni ukuba โneengqondi zoluntuโ zithethe nabantu baseMelika malunga nemibuzo yokuziphatha.
UChomsky: Okokuqala, ndicinga ukuba le ncwadi ngumsebenzi wobubhanxa kangangokuba andikwazi nokuthetha ngayo. Ukubeka ecaleni ubudenge baloo nzame, ukuba yingqondi lubizo kuye nabani na: kuthetha ukusebenzisa ingqondo yakho kwaye uyisebenzise kwimiba ebalulekileyo yomntu. Abanye abantu banelungelo, banamandla kwaye bahlala behambelana ngokwaneleyo ukuba bangene kwindawo yoluntu. Loo nto ayibenzi babe nobukrelekrele ngaphezu komqhubi weteksi ocinga ngezinto ezifanayo kwaye unokuba krelekrele kakhulu kwaye aziqonde ngakumbi. Ngumbuzo wamandla. Yintoni "ingqondi yoluntu?" Ingqondi yoluntu ngumntu onokwenza ukuba ibe yinto eqhelekileyo. Uyenza njani into ephambili? Hayi ngetalente. Ubukhulu becala, ngokuhambelana. Ayiloxabiso eliphezulu elo.
CS: Ndilibonile igama lakho kuluhlu lwabantu abadumileyo abangakholelwayo kubukho bukaThixo โ ungazibonakalisa โnjengomntu ongakholelwa kuTixoโ kwaye ucinga ukuba abantu abangakholelwayo kubukho bukaThixo bajongelwe phantsi kuluntu lwanamhlanje?
UChomsky: Andizange ndizive ndijongelwa phantsi ngenxa yokungabi nazinkolelo zonqulo. Kwelinye icala, ukuba uyandibuza ukuba andikholelwa kuTixo okanye akunjalo, ndingade ndikuphendule. Bendiya kuqala ndifuna ingcaciso malunga nokuba yintoni na endingakholelwa kuyo, kwaye andizange ndiyibone ingcaciso.
CS: Ngaba ucinga ukuba sinengxaki xa i-rhetoric kunyulo, umzekelo ngexesha lomkhankaso we-Gore-Lieberman kunyulo lokugqibela lomongameli, lubonakala luhlala kakhulu kuThixo kunye nenkolo?
Chomsky: Abo bantu bangamakholwa njengam. Kodwa ukuba ufuna ukuqhubela phambili kwiofisi yoluntu apho, yithi, i-40% yabemi ikholelwa ukuba ihlabathi ladalwa kwiminyaka eyi-6000 eyadlulayo, ngoko kufuneka ubeke isenzo sonqulo. Kodwa ukuba uyazikhathaza ngokujonga, ndiyakrokrela ukuba uRonald Reagan, uGeorge Bush kunye noBill Clinton bamalunga nenkolo njengam.
CS: Ngaba loo nto yingxaki, nangona kunjalo, yokuba ufanele ubeke esi senzo sokunqula?
Chomsky: Yingxaki kakhulu. Kodwa ingxaki asikokuba bazenza abantu bonqulo. Eyona ngxaki yeyokuba sinenkqubo yezopolitiko apho abagqatswa baqulunqwe lishishini lezobudlelwane noluntu ukuze bathathe izikhundla ekungathenjwanga mntu kuzo nokuphepha imiba ebalulekileyo eluntwini. Ukuziphepha, kuba ngokucwangcisiweyo, uluvo loluntu kunye noluvo lwamacandelo anamandla - uluvo oluphezulu - luye lwahluka. Kodwa le yingxaki malunga nedemokhrasi yaseMelika. Kwaye ngaphezu koko, abantu ngokubanzi bayazi kakuhle ngayo. Abezopolitiko abathethi ngemiba ekhathazwa ngabantu. Umzekelo, uvoto lubonisa ngokucacileyo, ukuba oko kubizwa ngokuba yimiba yokudityaniswa kwehlabathi โ intsilelo yorhwebo, izivumelwano zorhwebo, ukuvula imisebenzi yoluntu kulawulo lwabucala, ushishino lwabucala โ yimiba ephambili eluntwini kwaye ayizange ivele kulonyulo. Kwakungekho ngxoxo malunga neNdawo yoRhwebo lwaMahla yaseMelika eyayiza kufikelela kwisigqibo kwiNgqungquthela yaseMelika. Uninzi lwabantu lwalusazi ngayo kuba luhlala kwaye lusebenza ngaphandle kwendawo yemidiya yoluntu. Kodwa kukho umzamo omkhulu wokugcina olu lwazi kude nabantu, kwaye aluveli kunyulo. Okuvelayo kwinkqubo yonyulo kukuba, โNgaba olu hlobo lomfo ongathanda ukufumana utywala kunye naye ebharini?โ Kwaye abantu bayazi ukuba oku kuyahlekisa kwaye yiyo loo nto kukho ukugxeka okungaka.
CS: Ngaba ulubonile utshintsho kubafundi abadlula kwi-MIT kumashumi eminyaka, ngakumbi ngokubhekiselele kwiminqweno yabo yezopolitiko kunye nokuxhomekeka?
Chomsky: Umahluko omkhulu. Ukuba ubuhamba eziholweni apha kwiminyaka engamashumi amane eyadlulayo, ngewufumene iziko elimhlophe, eliyindoda, elinemigca ethe tye, eligxile kubuchwephesha. Ukuba uhamba ngeeholo namhlanje, malunga nesiqingatha sabasetyhini, mhlawumbi i-30% yabancinci, nantoni na kodwa i-straight-laced, inomdla kuzo zonke iintlobo zezinto. Ibe lutshintsho olukhulu kakhulu kule minyaka ingama-40 idlulileyo. Kwabakho utshintsho olukhulu ngeminyaka yee-1960, kodwa emva koko yanda yaza yanda.
CS: Abaphembeleli bajonga ngasemva ngoku, nangona kunjalo, besithi umntu unokuba newaka labafundi kuqhanqalazo oluchasene neMfazwe yaseVietnam, kanti ngokuรขโฌยฆ
Chomsky: รขโฌยฆ kukho amawaka namawaka kwaye akukho nto ifana neMfazwe yaseVietnam. Ubutshantliziyo bungaphezulu lee kwinto obuyiyo ngeminyaka yama-60s. Uqhanqalazo oluchasene neMfazwe yaseVietnam lwalulinganiselwe kangangokuba asisakhumbuli nokuba imfazwe yenzeka. NgoMatshi i-2002 yaba sisikhumbuzo seminyaka engamashumi amane sokubhengezwa koluntu, ngolawulo lukaKennedy ukuba i-US Air Force yayiqala ukuqhubhisa i-Vietnam yaseSouth Vietnam. Leyo yinyanga abaqala ngayo ukusetyenziswa kwemfazwe yemichiza ukutshabalalisa izityalo, ezaba nemiphumo emibi, xa bagunyazisa iNapalm, xa baqala ukuqhuba izigidi zabantu kwiinkampu zoxinaniso. Imfazwe enkulu ngokuchasene neVietnam yaseSouth Vietnam eyasungulwa esidlangalaleni kwiminyaka engama-40 eyadlulayo - ngaba kukho nabani na owayikhankanyayo ngoMatshi walo nyaka? Hayi. Kakade akukho mntu ngelo xesha wayekhathala. Uyazi, hlasela elinye ilizwe, kulungile, hlasela elinye ilizwe. Kwabakho uqhanqalazo kamva, kwiminyaka kamva, kodwa kuncinci kakhulu de kwabakho imfazwe enkulu kunye namakhulu amawaka emikhosi yaseMelika ehlasela uMzantsi Vietnam. imbi ngokwaneleyo kodwa inobungqongqo obuncinci kunoko.
CS: Kwiminyaka engama-20 ukuya kwengama-30, xa abantu abasezikholejini ngoku beza kube beqhuba ihlabathi, ngoko ke, ubona i-US isiya phi?
Chomsky: Imicimbi yabantu ngumsebenzi wokuzithemba okuphantsi kakhulu kwaye irekhodi yokuxela kwangaphambili iyoyikeka, ngokuyinxenye ngenxa yokuba asiqondi kakhulu malunga nezinto ezintsonkothileyo ezinje, kodwa ubukhulu becala kuba le yimicimbi yokuzikhethela. Kwakungekho ndlela yokuqikelela ngo-1960 ukuba ujonge kwi-MIT okanye kwilizwe liphela ukuba kwiminyaka embalwa, uphuhliso luya kwenzeka, oluya kulitshintsha kakhulu ilizwe kwaye lilenze libe nempucuko ngakumbi kunokuba lalinjalo. Kwakungekho ndlela yokuqikelela oko, kwaye akukho mntu wenzayo. Ezo yayiziintsuku, ii-1960, apho iinkcuba-buchopho zikawonke-wonke zazithetha ngoko zazikubiza ngokuba โkukuphela kweengcamango,โ nto leyo eyayithetha ukuba akusayi kubakho mpikiswano, kungabikho ngxoxo, ukuphela kwembali. Indlela eqhelekileyo yokucinga yayikukuba ukususela ngoku kwakungumbandela nje wobuchule bokuxhaphaza iingxaki ezincinci, ezenziwa ziingcali. Ezi ngcaphephe zichaze ukuba akusayi kubakho zingxaki zoqoqosho kuba ziyayazi indlela yokuqhuba uqoqosho ngokukhula nge-3% ngokucofa nje. Ngoko ke, zonke iingxaki zaziphelile kwaye kwakungekho nto ingako yokuthetha ngayo. Kwiminyaka embalwa kamva ilizwe laliqhushumba. Akukho ndlela yokuqikelela.
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Nikela