Trita Parsi anabadwira ku Iran ndipo anakulira ku Sweden. Anapeza Digiri ya Master mu International Relations ku Uppsala University, Digiri yachiwiri ya Master mu Economics ku Stockholm School of Economics ndi PhD in International Relations kuchokera ku yunivesite ya Johns Hopkins SAIS. Adatumikirapo ngati mlangizi wa Congressman Bob Ney (R-OH18) pankhani zaku Middle East ndipo ndi woyambitsa nawo komanso Purezidenti wapano wa National Iranian American Council (www.niacouncil.org). Dr. Parsi ndi mlembi wa Mpukutu Umodzi wa Dice: Diplomacy ya Obama ndi Iran, Mgwirizano Wachinyengo: Zochita Zachinsinsi za Iran, Israel ndi United States, ndipo posachedwapa, Kutaya Mdani: Obama, Iran, ndi Kupambana kwa Diplomacy. Watsatira ndale za ku Middle East kwa zaka zoposa khumi, kupyolera mu ntchito m'munda, komanso kupyolera muzochitika zambiri pa Capitol Hill ndi United Nations.
Vijay Prashad ndi George ndi Martha Kellner Chair ku South Asia History ndi Pulofesa wa International Studies ku Trinity College. Iye ndi mlembi wa mabuku makumi awiri, kuphatikizapo Imfa ya Mtundu ndi Tsogolo la Revolution Yachiarabu (LeftWord ndi University of California Press, 2016) ndi mkonzi wa Land of Blue Helmet: UN ku Arab World (University of California Press, 2016) komanso mkonzi wa Makalata Opita ku Palestine: Olemba Amayankha Nkhondo ndi Ntchito. Vijay ndi Mkonzi Wamkulu wa LeftWord Books (leftword.com) ndipo ndi wolemba nkhani za Frontline ndi AlterNet komanso wopereka pafupipafupi ku The Hindu, Himal ndi Counterpunch.
PAUL JAY: Takulandirani ku Real News Network. Ndine Paul Jay.
Lamlungu, The New York Times idatulutsa nkhani patsamba loyamba lotchedwa "Iran Dominates in Iraq After U.S. 'Handed the Country Over'" yolembedwa ndi Tim Arango. Mfundo yaikulu ya nkhaniyi ndi United States inamenyana kapena kuukira Iraq, sindikuganiza kuti amagwiritsa ntchito mawu oti "kuukira," anamenyera Iraq chifukwa cha demokalase, pamene Iran inali ikukonzekera kusintha Iraq kukhala dziko lamakasitomala. Akupitiriza kulemba kuti Iran ikukula, ndipo tanthauzo lake ndilowopsa.
Nawa mawu ochokera m'nkhaniyi. "Kulamulira kwa dziko la Iraq kwawonjezera mikangano yamagulu m'derali, ndi mayiko a Sunni, ndi ogwirizana ndi America, monga Saudi Arabia akulimbikitsana kuti atsutsane ndi kukula kwa Iran. Koma Iraq ndi gawo lokha la ntchito yowonjezera ya Iran; yagwiritsanso ntchito mphamvu zofewa komanso zolimba kukulitsa mphamvu zake ku Lebanon, Syria, Yemen ndi Afghanistan, komanso kudera lonselo.
Izi, ndithudi, nkhaniyi ikubwera pa nthawi yomwe Donald Trump posachedwapa anali ku Saudi Arabia mochuluka kapena mocheperapo akuyitanitsa nkhondo ku Iran, kutcha Iran chiwopsezo chachikulu, wothandizira boma lauchigawenga, kuti palibe njira yolimbana ndi uchigawenga popanda kukumana ndi Iran. .
Tsopano akugwirizana nafe kuti tikambirane nkhaniyi mu The New York Times ndi ndondomeko yeniyeni yachilendo ya Trump, yomwe ikuwoneka kuti si ISIS koma kukhala yochuluka za Iran, ndi Vijay Prashad. Vijay ndi George ndi Martha Kellner Wapampando ku South Asia History ndi Pulofesa wa International Studies ku Trinity College. Ndiwolemba mabuku 20 kuphatikiza The Death of the Nation ndi Tsogolo la Arab Revolution.
Komanso kujowina ife ndi Trita Parsi. Ndiwoyambitsa komanso Purezidenti wa National Iranian American Council. Iye ndi mlembi wa bukhu Losing an Enemy: Obama, Iran, and the Triumph of Diplomacy.
Trita, mudalemba posachedwapa kuti nkhondo yolimbana ndi Iran yabwereranso patebulo ndi Trump, ndipo zikuwoneka kwa ine kuti chidutswa cha New York Times chikuthandizira kulimbikitsa mkangano wa Trump. Mukupanga chiyani panthawiyi?
TRITA PARSI: Momwe zimalimbikitsira mkanganowo ndi chifukwa pali malingaliro olakwika okhudza chifukwa chake mgwirizano wanyukiliya ukhoza kuchitika poyambirira. Pali lingaliro loti zilangozo zinali zopunduka kwambiri kotero kuti aku Irani adakakamizika kupita patebulo ndikukambirana, ndipo olamulira a Obama adangopitilizabe kukakamiza kwanthawi yayitali, aku Irani sakanangobwera patebulo, iwo. akanatha kutero. Komabe, monga ndikuwululira m'bukuli, izi sizinachitike konse.
Kukambitsirana kwachinsinsi ku Oman kukuwonetsa kuti kunali kosiyana kwambiri, komanso chowonadi chomwe chiwongolero chomwe US โโโโinali nacho ku Iran, chomwe chinali chachikulu, komabe chinali chopambana ndi kupita patsogolo kwa pulogalamu ya nyukiliya yaku Iran, kutanthauza kuti aku Iran kukhala ndi vuto la nyukiliya lomwe likugwirizana ndi nthawi yayitali kuposa momwe chuma chingagwere, kukakamiza United States kuti isankhe kumamatira njirayo ndiyeno kukhala ndi mwayi wovomereza mphamvu ya nyukiliya ya Iran kapena kupita kunkhondo kapena, m'malo mwake, kupita ku zokambirana ndi yesani kupeza njira yabwinoko, zomwe ndi zomwe olamulira a Obama adachita.
Ambiri omwe amatsutsa mgwirizanowu akuti zomwe zidachita ndikuti sizinagwirizane ndi kukula kwa Iran kapena ndondomeko zake m'derali, ndipo sizinapangidwenso. M'malo mwake, anali otsutsa omwewa omwe adanena kuti nkhani ya nyukiliya inali nkhani yopezekapo, ndipo chifukwa chake, iwo anali ndi udindo wokankhira kuti isakhale pa nambala imodzi ya ndondomeko koma kulamulira kwathunthu ndondomeko.
Kenako, nkhaniyo itathetsedwa, akudandaula kuti nkhani zina sizinayankhidwe, ngakhale iwowo adatsutsana ndi nkhani zina zomwe zikuphatikizidwa muzokambirana. Chimodzi mwazinthuzi, ndikuti Iran ili ndi chikoka chachikulu kwambiri ku Iraq pakali pano kuposa momwe United States imachitira, ndipo ndichifukwa cha zolakwika zaku America komanso kuti aku Iran amasewera makhadi awo mochenjera kwambiri.
PAUL JAY: Vijay, vuto lomwe lili pano ndikuti Iran ndiyomwe ikusokoneza chikoka chakufalikira mderali. Mfundo yakuti The New York Times ikugwirizana ndi izi panthawi yomwe Trump akupangitsa kuti izi zikhale nkhani yake yaikulu yakunja zimandikumbutsa za kuwukira kwa 2003 pamene New York Times idachitanso chimodzimodzi.
VIJAY PRASHAD: Ndizoyang'ana pansi kwenikweni. Ngati muyang'ana mopenda, zinali nkhondo ziwiri zaku America, ndiyo nkhondo ya US yolimbana ndi a Taliban ku Afghanistan ndi nkhondo ya US yolimbana ndi boma la Ba'ath ku Iraq, zinali nkhondo ziwirizi zomwe zinapatsa Iran mwayi. Kupatula apo, boma la Taliban ndi Saddam Hussein lidali adani akale a Iran, ndipo pomwe United States idadula adani aku Iran, idapatsa Iran mwayi wochita nawo gawo lolimba kwambiri.
M'malo mwake, chosangalatsa, Paul, ndikuti kuyambira nkhondo yosaloledwa yaku America ndi kuwukira ku Iraq, United States idayesa mwamphamvu kukankhira Iran kumalire ake, kuphatikiza kugwiritsa ntchito njira monga, kuwopseza zida za nyukiliya ndi nkhondoyi. kuti Israeli ndiye anaukira Hezbollah.
Sizolondola kunena kuti United States ikhoza kupita kunkhondo ndi Iran. M'malo mwake, m'njira zambiri, United States yakhala ikumenyana ndi Iran, ngati siili yotsutsana ndi dziko la Iran, ndithudi motsutsana ndi ogwirizana ndi Irani m'derali, ndipo posachedwapa, kumalire a Syria-Iraq komwe kwakhala kumenyana koopsa. m'malo ena amalire pakati pa asitikali ochirikizidwa ndi Iran ndi asitikali aku US.
PAUL JAY: Nkhaniyi, Trita, imapanga mfundo yaikulu kwambiri yokhudza mphamvu zomwe Iran ili nazo pa ndale za Iraq, kuti aphungu a nyumba yamalamulo, amamvetsera kwambiri Iran kuposa momwe amachitira ku United States, ndi zina zotero. Koma si zachibadwa kuti ngati ndinu Iran, amene anali pansi pa nkhondo yoopsa ndi Iraq kwa zaka zambiri ndipo anataya mazana masauzande a anthu, tsopano ali m'malire ake ndi Iraq amene ali mu chipwirikiti chipwirikiti ndi kumenyana magulu ampatuko. ndi magulu ankhondo amitundu yonse mmbuyo ndi mtsogolo, kodi sikwachibadwa kuti dziko liyesetse kuchitapo kanthu kuti ligonjetse mphamvuzo kuti zisapitirire malire ake?
TRITA PARSI: Zakhala chidwi chachikulu kwa anthu aku Irani kuwonetsetsa kuti dziko la Iraq silikhalanso m'manja mwa boma lomwe lingakhale lotsutsana ndi Iran kapena kukhala boma lomwe limayimira United States, pokumbukira chidani chaku America. Iran. Chifukwa chake chofunikira kwambiri aku Iran ndikuwonetsetsa kuti dziko la Iraq lidzatha kuyambitsanso nkhondo yoyipa komanso yamagazi motsutsana ndi Iran monga idachitira mu 1980. Ndikuganiza kuti izi ndizomveka.
Chomwe chili chopanda pake, kunena mosabisa mawu ndi inu, ndi nkhaniyi ndikuti ikujambula zolinga zaku America mwanjira yowala komanso yachikondi kwambiri. Kuwukira kwa Iraq kunali chifukwa chokonda demokalase. Iran ikugulitsa zotsukira ndi zipatso ku Iraq ndichifukwa ikuyesera kugonjetsa ma Iraqi. Kuphatikiza kuyika zolinga zonse zaku America m'njira yabwino kwambiri komanso zonse zomwe Iran imachita molakwika, ndikuganiza kuti zimawulula zinazake - zomwe pamapeto pake ndizolamulira.
Mayiko a United States ndi Iran akhala akusemphana maganizo chifukwa dziko la United States linakhazikitsa dongosolo mโderali pambuyo pa kutha kwa Cold War. Anthu aku Iran amatsutsa lamuloli. Linali lamulo lomwe lidatengera kudzipatula komanso kusapezeka kwawo, koma kwenikweni sanali aku Iran omwe adakwanitsa kutsitsa dongosololi. Anali United States yemweyo. Popita ku Iraq, idawononga mfundo zapawiri komanso dongosolo lomwe linalipo. Chifukwa chakuti Iraq ndi kuukira kwa Iraq kunakhala tsoka loterolo, United States inadzifooketsa kotero kuti sinathenso kukhazikitsanso dongosolo.
Kuyambira nthawi imeneyo, derali lakhala lopanda dongosolo, ndipo m'dera lopanda dongosolo, zimatanthawuza kuti ndi dera lomwe likusintha kuchoka ku mphamvu zina kupita ku zina, zomwe mwa tanthawuzo ndi nthawi zosakhazikika kwambiri za dera. Imeneyinso ndi nthawi yomwe mkangano pakati pa mayiko omwe ali ndi mphamvu zokhoza kukhudza mphamvu zamtsogolo ukukulirakulira. Ndizo ndendende zomwe tikuwona. Zomwe zili m'nkhaniyi ndi zowawa kuti Iraq si dziko la America lothandizira, kuti mayiko ena akwanitsa kukulitsa mphamvu zawo kumeneko m'malo mwa United States kukhala mphamvu yaikulu ku Iraq.
PAUL JAY: Vijay, Trump, atalankhula ku CIA, adalankhula za mwayi wachiwiri wopeza mafuta aku Iraq. Nayi kopanira.
DONALD TRUMP: Mawu akale akuti โkwa wopambana ndi wofunkha,โ mukukumbukira kuti nthawi zonse ndimakonda kunena kuti, โSungani mafuta.โ Sindinali wokonda Iraq. Sindikufuna kupita ku Iraq, koma ndikuwuzani, pamene tinalimo, tinalakwitsa. Ine nthawizonse ndinkati kuwonjezera pa izo, kusunga mafuta. Ndinanena izi chifukwa cha zachuma, koma ngati mukuganiza, [Mike 00:09:47], ngati mutasunga mafuta, mwina simukanakhala ndi ISIS chifukwa ndi kumene adapanga ndalama zawo poyamba. Choncho tiyenera kusunga mafuta, koma chabwino. Mwina tidzakhala ndi mwayi wina. Koma zoona zake n'zakuti, mafuta ayenera kusungidwa.
PAUL JAY: Vijay, akuwoneka, olamulira a Trump, akufuna kuyamba pomwe oyang'anira a Cheney-Bush adasiya. Sanakonde kuchotsedwa kwa asitikali ku Iraq, ndipo akuwoneka kuti akufuna kubwereranso, malinga ndi mafuta aku Iraq ndipo akufuna kuthandizira nduna yayikulu yaku Iraq yomwe imakonda ku America kuposa ena aku Iraq. boma ndi nyumba yamalamulo ndi, ndipo zikugwiritsidwa ntchito ngati malo otsutsana ndi Iran. Kodi mukuganiza kuti ndiko kuwunika kolondola, ndiye kuti ali ozama bwanji pa izi?
VIJAY PRASHAD: Ndizosangalatsa kuti mu chidutswa cha Tim Arango, sakunena chilichonse chokhudza Iraqi Kurdistan. Iraqi Kurdistan, kuyambira 1991, yakhala ikuteteza United States. M'malo mwake, ngati mupita ku Erbil, ndizosangalatsa. Zimayamba kuwoneka ngati mzinda waku Texas. Awa ndi malo omwe ali ndi mafuta ambiri aku Iraq. Zalengezedwa sabata yatha kuti pali lingaliro loti pakhale referendum pa Iraqi Kurdistan, mwina, ufulu wodzilamulira. Chifukwa chake palibe kutchulidwa komweko komwe United States ili ndi zomwe zili ngati koloni, yomwe ndi Iraqi Kurdistan. Palibe chifukwa chenicheni chokhala ndi dziko lonse la Iraq m'manja aku America kuti apite ku Iran ngati Iraqi Kurdistan ndi dziko la United States.
Chifukwa chake sindikuganiza kuti wina akuyenera kuganiza kuti chidwi cha Trump ndi Iraq ndikuchiyika ngati malo otsutsana ndi Iran, koma amawulula mochititsa chidwi mtundu wa zolinga zobisika, mtundu wa zolinga zapansi pano zomwe Trump nthawi zambiri amabweretsa padziko lapansi. . Nkhani yoti alanda mafutawo inali njira yachipongwe yoyikira, pomwe muulamuliro wa Bush, mwina anali ochulukirapo pang'ono. Tim Arango ayenera kuti anaiwala kuti ngakhale panthawi ya nkhondo ya 2003, akuluakulu a ku America nthawi zambiri ankanena kuti adzalandira Iraq kuti alipire nkhondoyi, yomwe ndi njira ina yophwanya malamulo apadziko lonse, kulanda katundu ndi mphamvu zowononga. ntchito yake.
Ndikuganiza kuti, mwanjira ina, olamulira a Trump akhala akukweza kukakamiza ku Iran. Pakhala kale kuwukira kwa asitikali aku Iran mkati mwa Syria. Ndikuganiza kuti kupanikizika ndi kwakukulu kwambiri mkati mwa kayendetsedwe ka kayendetsedwe kake, koopsa kwambiri, koma sindikuganiza kuti pali kufunikira kwenikweni kwa kayendetsedwe ka Trump kuti agwiritse ntchito Baghdad kuti ayambe nkhondo pamene pali njira zina zambiri zomwe zili nazo.
PAUL JAY: Ndikuganiza, eya, anthu omwe akutsutsanawo akunena kuti ndi mafuta, koma kukhazikika kwa Iran kukuwoneka ngati cholinga chachikulu. Trita, mfundo yakuti New York Times ikulemetsa pa izi, ndikuganiza kuti ikuwonetsa momwe izi zilili mgwirizano wapawiri, kuganizira za Iran, kuti uyu si Trump yekha.
TRITA PARSI: Ndithu. Ndikuganiza kuti tiyenera kukumbukira kuti, ndipo zomwe ndidazitcha m'bukuli, ndi udani wokhazikika pakati pa United States ndi Iran. Pali anthu ambiri muulamuliro komanso atolankhani omwe moona mtima apanga ntchito chifukwa chotha kunyoza mbali inayo. Izi ndizoonanso pankhani yaku Iran. Ndikofunikira kwambiri kumvetsetsa kuti, pamlingo waukulu kwambiri, uwu ndi msewu wanjira ziwiri.
Ndikuganiza kuti zomwe tikuwona pano ndikuti pankhani yochita zankhondo, zikafika pakutsata mfundo zomwe munthu atha kuzitcha kuti zamatsenga, sizinthu zomwe zimangothandizira kumapeto kwa neo-conservative. Ili ndi chithandizo chochuluka kwina kulikonse pakati pa osankhidwa andale zakunja. Tidawona kuti pomwe Purezidenti adayambitsa zipolopolo ku Syria, mwachitsanzo, kuchuluka kwa-
PAUL JAY: Palibe amene adakondwera kuposa Chuck Schumer.
TRITA PARSI: Ndiye pali udani wochuluka pamenepo. Ndikuganiza kuti zomwe zikubweranso ndikuti pali zinthu zamphamvu mkati mwa bungwe lazakunja la US lomwe limakhulupirira kuti United States ikufunika kulimba mtima ku Middle East. Ngati mukufunafuna ulamuliro wolimba ku Middle East, ndiye kuti muli mbali ina ya Iran chifukwa anthu aku Irani amatsutsa mphamvu zamtundu uliwonse zomwe zili ndi udindo waukulu m'derali. Zinalinso momwemo nthawi ya Shah, ndipo zitha kukhala momwemonso pakakhala boma lina ku Iran.
Zidzatanthauzanso kuti mudzanyalanyaza machimo ambiri a Saudis kuphatikizapo kupha kwawo Achimereka pofalitsa uchigawenga chifukwa Saudis, kumapeto kwa tsiku, akufuna ndikulakalaka mphamvu zaku America. Amafuna kukhala ndi moyo ... M'malo mwake, amachifuna kuposa momwe anthu ena aku America amafunira. Chotsatira chake, kotero cholinga chachikulu cha hegemony chimatsimikizira kuti Saudis akuthandizira mantha. Cholinga chachikulu cha hegemony chimatsimikiziranso kuti US ndi Iran ali ndi chidwi chofanana ndi ISIS komanso madera ena ku Middle East. Kotero kuti ndi mphamvu yamphamvu kwambiri yoyendetsa galimoto.
Apa ndipamene maulamuliro am'mbuyomu adasiyana chifukwa amakhulupirira kuti Middle East, moona, idataya kufunikira kofunikira komanso kuti idayika zofuna za US pamalingaliro apadziko lonse lapansi kuti asakhalenso ku Middle East, achoke ku Middle East. dera m'njira, osachoka m'derali koma athe chigawocho kuti chiyimire chitetezo chake m'malo mokhala ndi United States kukhala wothandizira wa Saudi Arabia kuti amenyane ndi nkhondo iliyonse ndi nkhondo kwa iwo, ndikusintha maganizo ake m'malo mwa kummawa. Ndi Trump akubwera, tabwereranso ku njira yodziwika bwino ya ku America yomwe pafupifupi mosakayikira, hegemony ku Middle East ikuwoneka ngati chidwi cha dziko la US.
PAUL JAY: Vijay, mukupanga chiyani zandale zomwe zikupita patsogolo ku United States mpaka kuchuluka kwake, pankhani yazankhani komanso kukonza ndale ndi zina zotere, sikukhala chete pankhani ya Iran? Kodi ndichifukwa utsogoleri wa Democratic Party uli ndi chidwi kwambiri ndi Iran kapena chiyani? Ndife amodzi mwa malo ochepa omwe amapitilira nkhaniyi.
VIJAY PRASHAD: Nkhani yaku Iran yasiya patebulo, inde. Ndikuganiza kuti kutengeka uku ndi kulowerera kwa Russia pachisankho ndi zina zotero kwachititsa kuti pakhale chisokonezo pazochitika za kukula kwakukulu kwa Bambo Trump pa kuphulika kwa mabomba ku Syria ndi Iraq. Airwars ili ndi lipoti lomwe likungosonyeza momwe mabomba a Trump analili pafupifupi kawiri zomwe tidaziwona pansi pa ulamuliro wa Obama, kuphulika koopsa kwambiri ku Mosul komanso ku Raqqa. Kotero pakhala pali masomphenya amtundu wa kutsutsa kwa Bambo Trump, koma ndikuganiza kuti si chifukwa chokha, Paul.
Zifukwa zina ndi mkangano waukuluwu mozungulira momwe angamvetsetse nkhondo ku Syria ndithudi waphwanyidwa zigawo za America kumanzere, gawo limodzi lomwe limakhulupirira, ndikuganiza molakwika, kuti vuto la Syria ndi Iran ndipo vuto ku Syria ndi Russia. . Gawo limenelo silikumvetsa chiyambi cha mkangano mkati mwa Syria ndipo samvetsa nkhaniyi ya dera la Iran pofuna kukhala mphamvu yachigawo komanso momwe Achimereka, kuyambira 2003, ayesera kuletsa Iran, agwiritsa ntchito magulu achipembedzo. rhetoric adabwereka ku Saudi Arabia kuti ayesenso ndikuyika Iran kumalire ake. Kugawanikana uku ku America komwe kumachokera ku Syria kwasokonezanso anthu pafunso la Iran ndi anthu ena omwe akugula nkhani zambiri kuti Iran ndi vuto m'derali.
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