Izi ndi zolembedwa m'modzi mwa zokambirana ziwiri zazikulu pa Radio Tahrir, mpikisano wothamanga womwe umayang'ana mmbuyo kudzutsidwa kwa Aarabu, gulu la Indignados ndi Occupy, lojambulidwa ku Kaaitheather, Brussels, 11 Marichi 2012, lopangidwa ndikuyendetsedwa ndi Lieven de. Cauter. Mtundu wosinthidwa (wolemba Werner Trio) wamtsutso unaulutsidwa ngati "Radio Tahrir" pa Radio Klara, patatha sabata imodzi. Kuyankhulana koyamba kwa skype kuli ndi Tariq Ali, yemwe amagawana maganizo ake pa zomwe zikuchitika ku Middle East, wachiwiri ndi Michael Hardt yemwe akufunsidwa pa gulu la Occupy ndi Indignado komanso zotsatira za ndale za demokalase zakumadzulo. Mamembala a gulu mu Kaaitheater ndi Rudi Vranckx, Sami Zemni, Yassine Channouf, Eva Brems, Christophe Callewaert, Linus van Hellemont, Eric Coryn ndi Thomas Decreus. Kapena mverani kwa pulogalamu mu Chingerezi ndi Chi Dutch.
(Zolembedwa ndi Odette Dijt)
Lieven De Cauter: Masana abwino, Bambo Ali, mukuwerenga ine? Inde. Takulandirani Tariq Ali!โฆ [mawu] M'mawa kwambiri - ndikuganiza kuti ngakhale Mubarak adakali kulamulira - mumalemba, m'nkhani yomwe mumati: "Ngati Tunisia inali chivomerezi, kuwukira ku Egypt kwasanduka chivomerezi, ndiye kuti. kufalikira kudera lonseloโโฆ Tsopano, funso langa loyamba, lomwe lidakali loyambilira ndi: Chifukwa chiyani 2011? Nโchifukwa chiyani kuwundana kumeneku? Muli bwanji, masomphenya anu pa kuwundana uku?
Tariq Ali: Ndikuganiza kuti zomwe zidachitika mdziko la Aarabu ku 2011, zidakhala zikuphika zaka zambiri m'mbuyomu. Ndipo mu 2011, nsonga yowira idafikira, ndipo chivindikirocho chinawulukira m'mbale. Ndipo chifukwa chake ndi chodziwikiratu: kuti kukhazikitsidwa kwa dziko la Aarabu kwa gulu la olamulira ankhanza ndi opondereza, nthawi zambiri mothandizidwa ndi United States ndi mayiko aku Europe aku United States, kwenikweni zikutanthauza kuti iwo alibe chidwi. demokalase ndi ufulu wa anthu. Anasunga olamulira ankhanzawa malinga ngati olamulira ankhanza akuchirikiza dongosolo lachuma la neo-liberal, lomwe, ndithudi, onse adachita, chifukwa adapindula nawo: mabanja awo adapeza ndalama, adakhala achinyengo, sanasamalire osauka. . Kotero, pamene vuto la zachuma la dongosolo la Wall Street linayamba pang'onopang'ono kukhudza dziko la Aarabu, zodandaula zonse zomwe zakhala zikukulirakulira - ndale, chikhalidwe, zachuma - zinaphulika. Ndipo palibe amene akanatha kuneneratu nthawi yeniyeni, koma choyambitsa chinali anthu a ku Tunisia, ndipo pambuyo pa wolamulira wankhanza wa ku Tunisia - yemwe boma la France linayesa kuteteza - anathawira ku Saudi Arabia, anthu a ku Aigupto anati: izi sizingakhale choncho, kuti. a Tunisia akhala oyamba, tiyenera kuchitapo kanthu tsopano! Ndipo iwo anachita izo! Ndipo adamuchotsa Mubarak ... ndipo zitachitika, chitsanzocho chidafalikira kumayiko onse a Arabu. Ndipo mโnkhani yanga yoyamba yosanthula, ndinalongosola zimene zinali kuchitika mโdziko la Aarabu monga Aarabu 1848. Zinali zofanana kwambiri, mโnjira zambiri, ndi chipwirikiti cha ku Ulaya, chimene chinafalikira kuchokera ku dziko lina kupita ku lina, mu 1848. zomwe zikuchitikabe, sizikutha, zonse zomwe tili nazo tsopano ndizokhazikika kwambiri, kuti kumene Kumadzulo sakonda wolamulira wankhanza, monga Assad ku Syria, kapena Gaddafi ku Libya, amasuntha kuti ayese kumuchotsa, nthawi zina, monga tawonera ku Libya, ndi zotsatira zoyipa. Koma olamulira ankhanza, amanama, monga mfumu ya Saudi Arabia, kapena mfumu ya Morocco, olamulira ku Bahrain, sadzachita chilichonse ndipo amalekerera kupha anthu. Chifukwa chake, ndizomwe zili pawiri izi zomwe zikufalikira ku Western media ndi ndale zaku Western masiku ano.
LDC: Funso laling'ono, laling'ono chabe pamutu waukulu woyambaโฆ Kodi chimenecho ndi chinthu chofunika kwambiri kwa inu?
TA: Ndi kwambiri Chofunika kwambiri, chifukwa, mukudziwa, ngati mukukhala m'dziko la Aarabu, muli ndi kusiyana kwakukulu pakati pa olemera, olamulira, ndi anthu omwe ali pansi, omwe ali aakulu ndithu. Ndipo pamene si anthu omwe ali pansi chabe, komanso anthu omwe ali pamwamba pawo, omwe amayamba kukhudzidwa, ndiye kuti mumakhala ndi vuto lalikulu ... ndi oipa, achinyengo, ochititsidwa khungu ndi chuma chawo, ndipo sayang'ana ngakhale mikhalidwe ya anthu okhala m'mayiko awo - anthu awo! Si dziko la Aarabu lokha. N'chimodzimodzinso ku Pakistan, India, maiko ena ambiri ... koma m'mayiko achiarabu zigawenga zomwe zinayamba zakhala injini yaikulu, yomwe imayang'aniridwa ndi aliyense, makamaka kulimbikitsa kayendetsedwe ka ntchito. Ngakhale kuti sitinakhalepo ndi njira yokhutiritsa ya zipolowezi mpaka pano, mwa lingaliro langa. Chifukwa kusowa kwa njira zazikulu za chikhalidwe cha anthu, njira za chikhalidwe ndi zachuma, zikutanthawuza kuti ngakhale muli ndi boma latsopano mu mphamvu, ponena za chuma, palibe kusintha komwe kumachitika. Ndipo izi ndizowopsa kwa maboma atsopano ku Tunisia ndi Egypt, ngati apitiliza monga kale. Ndipo chitsanzo chomwe ena mwa odziyimira pawokha amakonda - otchedwa Asilamu okhazikika - ndi chitsanzo cha Turkey. Koma chitsanzo cha Turkey ndi chitsanzo cha neo-liberal, chifukwa chake boma la Turkey, ndilo mtundu wa NATO womwe umakonda Chisilamu. Chifukwa amachita zonse zomwe amauzidwa kuti azichita pazachuma.
LDC: Funso langa lachiwiri ndi lalifupi kwambiri, koma lalikulu kwambiri: unyinji kapena mphamvu zofewa? Mwinamwake ndiyenera kufotokoza pang'ono, komanso kwa omvera, lingaliro khamu kukhala, ndithudi, nthawi yofunika kwambiri ya Negri ndi Yovuta yomwe idzakhala ngati leitmotiv muzokambirana zathu, chifukwa madzulo ano sikutanthauza masika achiarabu okha komanso za kayendetsedwe ka Occupy ndi Indignado - unyinji, ndikuganiza, ndi mawu osangalatsa, mtundu uwu wa maukonde, opingasa, ozungulira ngati mukufuna, olumikizidwa, opanga opanga olumikizidwa ndi malo ochezera atsopano - ndi zina. Mtundu watsopano. Ndiwo masomphenya amodzi pa Tahrir Square, masomphenya ena, pa gulu lonse, ali mphamvu yofewa. M'malo mwa njira ya neo-con yowukira mayiko ndikuwaphulitsa ku(ir) Stone Age. Ingololani maiko awa kupasuka, ndipo muli ndi zotsatira zofanana, mwanjira ina. Minda yowonongedwa, mayiko omaliza, chilichonse chomwe mungachitchule. Monga zikuchitika ku Libya, monga momwe zikuchitikira ku Syria, ndi zina. Zowona, ndizosiyana kwambiri, koma ndikuganiza mutha kuchitapo kanthu. Kuti ndikutsimikiza.
TA: Onani, a kwenikweni funso ndi ili: chimabwera pambuyo pake? Zipolowe za anthu ambiri zili bwino, kusonkhanitsa anthu ambiri kuli bwino, njira zatsopano zolankhulirana zili bwino, koma funso limodzi lomwe nthawi zina limapewedwa, ndilo: funso la ndale. Osati chuma chokha, komanso ndale. Kapena, ngati ndingagwiritse ntchito mawu akale awa, chuma chandale. Nanga maikowa zikhala zotani, zikadzatha chipwirikiti chimenechi? Kodi lidzakhala boma latsopano, boma latsopano ngakhale losankhidwa, koma lomwe likuchita chimodzimodzi? Ndipo apa pali mafunso awiri: mmodzi ndi mkangano nthawi zina anaika ena Negri-anthu: kuti mogwira ngati inu kusonkhanitsa ndi kulenga maukonde amenewa, kuti palokha ndi chigonjetso. Samabwera ndi ndondomeko ya ndale - palibe nkomwe. Ndipo izi, ndikuganiza, ndizowopsa. Chifukwa, zili bwino, tonse titha kuthandizira mayendedwe awa, koma ngati mayendedwewa sabwera ndi pulogalamu yaying'ono yazandale-yachuma kuti atengere anthu patsogolo, ndipo, ngati kuli koyenera, kukhazikitsa, ndiye kuti pamapeto pake anthu amati: izi zikuyenda. osatha ponseponse ndipo kulimbikitsana ndi anthu kuchotsedwa. Ndikupatsani chitsanzo chapamwamba cha izi, a Zapatistas, ku Mexico. Anthu odabwitsa, ndili ndi anzanga ambiri kumeneko, zabwino zomwe anachita m'chigawo chawo chomwe. Koma adaganiza kuti sangathe kulowerera ndale za chipani cha dziko, analibe pulogalamu, m'malo mwake, adakonza zoyenda kuchokera kumadera awo achitetezo kupita ku Mexico-City. Zochititsa chidwi. Koma! Ulendo utatha palibe chomwe chinachitika. Kodi iwo ankaganiza kuti chingachitike nโchiyani? Kuti kungoguba kwawo, kulimba kwa chitsanzo ichi, kungapange dongosolo latsopano lazachuma? Sizichitika choncho!
Ndipo chachitatu, mfundo yomwe, ndikuganiza, anthu a ku Ulaya akumvetsa lero, kuposa anthu a dziko la Aarabu, kapena kwina kulikonse, ndikuti dongosolo la neo-liberal capitalist likubisa demokalase yokha! Kodi demokalase ndi chiyani masiku ano? Ndakhala ndikutsutsa kuti zomwe tili nazo mu gawo lapano la "demokalase" (yotchedwa) kwambiri pakati. Osati Kumanzere monyanyira, muli ndi Kumanja monyanyira, koma sikuli molingana, Kumanzere kwambiri ndikofooka kwambiri; chomwe chili champhamvu ndi malo apakati. Ndipo pakati pakatikati pakatikati pali pakati Kumanzere ndi pakati Kumanja - ndipo zilibe kanthu kuti ndi gulu liti lomwe likulamulira. Zimangokhudza anthu omwe amapeza ndalama, ndi amalonda, abwenzi, koma, ponena za anthu zilibe kanthu kuti ndi gulu liti lomwe liri pakati pawo, chifukwa iwo amachita chimodzimodzi bizinesi. M'malo mwake: kodi mfundo ya demokalase ndi chiyani? Limeneli ndi funso limene achinyamata ambiri a ku Ulaya akufunsa masiku ano. Makamaka, monga akunenera Greece, ndi mikhalidwe yomwe anthu achi Greek akukakamizika kukhalamo, ndipo amati "Greece imayendetsedwa ndi mabanki", ndipo amati "Italy imayendetsedwa ndi banki" ndipo anyamata onsewa adakhudzidwa. njira, zomwe - nthawi zina zimagwirira ntchito Goldmann Sachs - zomwe mwachindunji adatsogolera ku Wall Street Crash ya 2008 ndipo awa ndi anthu, osankhidwa tsopano, kuti ayendetse mayiko, ndi akuluakulu aku Germany ndi European Bank, ndikutanthauza, ndizowopsa! Ndiye, zikatero, bwanji Arabu, kapena mayiko ena kwinanso sangachite zomwezo: kusankha mabanki kuti aziyendetsa mayiko awo. Iwo angakonde kuchita zimenezo. Iwalani demokalase, sankhani mabanki kuti aziyendetsa dziko lanu.
LDC: Ndikuvomereza [mawu omveka osangalatsa], sindingathe kuvomereza. Kusanthula kochititsa chidwi kwambiri, zikomo kwambiri. Funso lomaliza tisanasamukire ku gulu ... funso lodziwikiratu, pambuyo pa kusinthaku: kubwezeretsa kwachikhazikitso?
TA: Ayi! Ndikuganiza kuti tili ndi njira ziwiri zomwe zikuchitika. Chimodzi, kuti Chisilamu sichikhazikitso. Mukudziwa, monga aliyense angakuuzeni: okhulupirira chikhazikitso amapanga ochepa mu Chisilamu. Amakhala otanganidwa kwambiri, amatha kuyambitsa chipwirikiti, amakhala ndi zovuta zambiri, ngati mukufuna. Koma, malinga ndi mafunde a Asilamu, mafunde akulu kwambiri achisilamu ndi omwe tingawatchule kuti ndi ofanana ndi zipani za Christian Democratic ku Europe. Gulu la Abale ku Egypt, lomwe ndi lamphamvu kwambiri, ndi phwando lachisangalalo, lachikatikati. Sichikhalanso champhamvu, chiyenera kuonedwa ngati pakati pa msewu. Osasiyana kwambiri ndi aku Turkey. Ndipo tsopano akuchita chinachake: ali ndi chikoka chachikulu pa Hamas, yomwe ikuyenda mofanana ndendende ku Palestine wolandidwa. Ndipo muli ndi boma lofananalo lomwe lili ndi mphamvu ku Tunisia. Ndipo apa tiyenera kufunsa: Kodi maboma adzachita chiyani? M'malingaliro anga maboma atero kukonda kuchita ndi United States ndi European Union ndikungopitiriza kukhala mu mphamvu, monga maboma ku Europa omwe ali ndi mphamvu, kapena monga Obama aliri. Chabwino, palibe mavuto. Ndipo izi zitha kutsegulira mwayi wina, wokulirapo kwambiri. Koma chofunika kumvetsetsa ndi chakuti chifukwa chomwe maphwandowa akhala amphamvu ndi chifukwa cha mpweya womwe unapangidwa kumapeto kwa Cold War, ndi kugwa kwa Kumanzere - kwa chikominisi, chikominisi chovomerezeka, koma osati chikominisi chovomerezeka chokha: demokalase ya anthu inagwa, ndipo Kumanzere kunagwa, chimenecho chinali chigonjetso chachikulu, chachikulu. Koma zinasiya malo opanda kanthu. Ndipo mโmalo opanda kanthu ameneลตa magulu ambiri, omwe anali andale zadziko, anazimiririka. Kapena kugwa, monga zomwe zidachitikira chipani cha chikomyunizimu cha ku Italy ku Italy. Kapena kwa anzeru ambiri paokha ku Europe konse omwe, pambuyo pa kugwa kwa khoma la Berlin, adadzigwetsa okha pa malupanga awo, ndipo adaganiza zosinthira kumanja, kuti avomereze dongosolo latsopano la capitalist. Ndipo m'malo opanda kanthu, monga m'madera ena a ku Ulaya, tikuwona mafunde akutali akukula, tikuwona maganizo oipa a Islamophobia - makamaka mumzinda wanu wa Antwerp - zomwe zingakhale zochititsa mantha. Zofanana ndi zomwe zili m'dziko lachisilamu zakhala zing'onozing'ono monga okhazikika kukhala amphamvu, komanso anthu omwe akutembenukira kumagulu a Chisilamu, omwe nthawi zambiri akhala akumenyana ndi maulamuliro achinyengo adziko. Izi zapangitsa kuti izi zitheke. Koma ndikuganiza kuti sizitenga nthawi yaitali ngati mabungwe atsopano, magulu atsopano a anthu adzauka. Chifukwa chake ndi nthawi yayikulu, yayikulu yosinthira mudziko lachiarabu yomwe imatha zaka khumi kapena apo.
LDC: Zikomo kwambiri. Tsopano gulu, tili ndi wotchuka padziko lonse - osachepera kwanuko - mtolankhani zankhondo, Rudi Vrankx, tili ndi pulofesa wa Arabic Studies, Sami Zemni, ndipo tili ndi achinyamata activist waluntha, Yassine Channouf, kotero iwo tsopano kufunsa mafunso kwa inu. , kapena kunena ndemanga kapena kutsutsa inu, kapena, chirichonse. Amuna, pansi ndi yanu ...
Rudi Vrankx: Kodi mukundiwona? Eyaโฆ Bambo Aliโฆ hallo! Ndili ndi funso kwa inu. Munayerekeza ndi 1848, monga Mzungu ndikumvetsetsa bwino. Kodi mukuwona kuti zomwe zikuchitika tsopano mu dziko la Aarabu, ndi pambuyo pa gawo lachisinthiko, zotsutsana ndi zowonongeka zikupita patsogolo tsopano, ndi zomwe tikuziwona mosiyana, ku Bahrain ndi Saudis, ku Syria ndi boma la Assad, kapena ngakhale ku Morocco ndi mfumu yomwe imapanga ndi dzanja losalala? Kodi tsopano ndi contra-evolution ikuchitika?
TA: Chabwino, inde. Ndikutanthauza, mfundo yonse yogwiritsira ntchito fanizo la 1848 linali, kuti panali zipolowe, koma panalibe kupambana kwakukulu. Kufunika kwa 1848 ku Ulaya, kunali kuti kunapanga chikhalidwe chatsopano, ndipo mlengalenga watsopano ndi zina mwa kupambana ndi kupambana zinadza zaka zambiri pambuyo pake. Kotero, ine ndikuganiza zomwe ife tikuzichitira umboni ku dziko la Aarabu, ndi chinthu cha mbali ziwiri. Chimodzi: monga momwe mudanenera, olamulira achikhalidwe akudzilimbitsa okha, ndipo kumene akugonjetsedwa, akugonjetsedwa - monga ku Libya - ndi NATO, osati kupanduka komweko, komwe kumasintha khalidwe la mayikowa, monga tikudziwa bwino lomwe. Ndipo ngati adzachitanso chimodzimodzi ku Syria sizidziwika. Ndipo ku Bahrain ndi ku Saudi Arabia kutsutsa-kusintha kwakhazikika ndipo Egypt, ndipo iyi ndi gawo lachiwiri la chinthucho, ili ndi mphamvu za US. Chifukwa uwu ndi Ufumu waukulu, monga Austro-Hungarians anali mu 1848. Kodi ulamuliro wa US ukugwedezeka, kulikonse kudziko la Aarabu, chifukwa cha zipolowe? M'malingaliro anga yankho ndilo: pang'ono kwambiri. Pakadali pano. Zochepa kwambiri. Ndipo akazembe a ku America ndi akazembe ndi anthu anzeru ali otanganidwa kukambirana mseri ndi magulu onse achisilamu kuti awone mapangano omwe angafikire monga momwe alili ku Afghanistan, mwangozi. Chifukwa chake ayesa ndikupeza mgwirizano watsopano. Simungawononge ulamuliro waku America pongogwetsa wolamulira wankhanza wakomweko, muyenera kukhala ndi pulogalamu ina.
Rudi Vrankx: Ndikuvomereza kuti kusintha kwa dziko la Aarabu kudzatenga nthawi yaitali. Ndi njira yayitali. Ndipo tawona kuti Chisilamu cha Chiarabu chasokoneza maulamuliro opita patsogolo, maulamuliro am'deralo mudziko lachiarabu omwe adayambitsa zosinthazi. Koma mukuwona bwanji - posachedwa, ndikutanthauza - symbiosis pakati pa mphamvu ziwirizi? Kodi tidzapita kukagwirizana, monga momwe tawonera ku Tunisia, kumene chipani cha Leftist Arab nationalist chikugwirizana ndi chipani cha Islamist chapakati kapena tidzawona mkangano, monga momwe tikuonera ku Egypt?
TA: Ndikuganiza kuti palibe gulu la pan-Arab pakadali pano. Kotero inu mukhoza kunena, izi zidzachita mofananamo. Zidzasiyana dziko ndi dziko. Ku Egypt muli ndi magulu a Kumanzere, muli ndi chikhalidwe cholimba cha mabungwe ogwira ntchito, m'mafakitale, omwe adapangidwa, ophatikizidwa ndi boma, koma sanawonongeke konse. Ndipo mfundo yakuti mapangidwe a mabungwe ogwira ntchitowa analipo m'mafakitale a ku Egypt, mafakitale akuluakulu onse, ndi chizindikiro chabwino, chifukwa tsopano akuluakulu a boma akuchotsedwa ndipo antchito achichepere tsopano akutenga mabungwewa. Ndipo zonsezo ndi zabwino. Koma pamene magulu ang'onoang'ono awa ndi magulu atsopano ku Egypt adzatha kutsutsa hegemony ya Asilamu ku Egypt, ndi funso lovuta kuyankha. Ndikuganiza kuti azichita mkati mwa zaka khumi. Chifukwa, pokhapokha ngati mikhalidwe yachitukuko itayenda bwino, anthu awa adzanyozedwa. Koma, mwachiwonekere sitingathe kuyerekeza Egypt ndi, kunena, Saudi Arabia.
Kodi kulimbanako kudzakhala kotani? Potsutsana ndi ulamuliro womwe umakonda kwambiri United States ndi ogwirizana nawo akumadzulo kumayiko achiarabu, kupatula Israeli, ndi Saudi Arabia. Ndipo ufumu wa Saudi udzatetezedwa ndi Kumadzulo mpaka kumapeto. Ndipo kotero kulimbana m'dzikolo mwinamwake kudzakhala ndi magulu a Kumadzulo. Adzanena kuti ndi ma Shia amene akupanga motere. Monga akunenera kale ku Bahrain. Ndipo kotero zidzatenga mitundu yosiyanasiyana yomwe ili yosadziลตika bwino komanso yosadziลตikatu. Sitikudziwa, chifukwa mikhalidwe imeneyi yomwe anthu adzayenera kumenyana nayo, ndi yapadera. Ku Syria tikhoza kunena motsimikiza, kuti ngati Assad, kapena pamene boma la Assad lipita, Asilamu ochepa okha adzalandira. Mwa njira m'malingaliro anga, Ba'ath ndi phwando lopusa komanso lankhanza kwambiri ku Middle East. Ndi kupusa kwawo komwe kuli kodabwitsa! Mukawona anthu ambiri akukuukirani, chinthu chodziwikiratu ndicho kukambirana. Ngati akanakambirana ndi otsutsa amkati pamene chipwirikiticho chinayamba, otsutsawo akanakonzekera kuti agwirizane ndi kuvomereza zinthu zambiri. Iwo sanachite izo! Ndipo tsopano iwo akulipira mtengo. Koma ngati tsopano muli ndi chisankho ku Syria, Asilamu odziyimira pawokha adzapambana ambiri, ambiri, ndiyeno ambiri ang'onoang'ono m'dzikolo amawopa kwambiri. Pali malipoti akuchokera ku Syria, m'madera ena kale Akhristu ochepa akuzunzidwa ndi Asilamu. Sitikudziwa ngati izi ndi zoona. Koma ndithudi iwo akutuluka. Ndipo ndilo tsoka la nthawi ya dziko la Arabu.
Sami Zemni: Gulu limodzi, lomwe sitinakambirane mpaka pano, ndi ma Salafi. Iwo ndi odabwitsa kwambiri, tiyeni tinene, popeza zosintha zinayamba, m'lingaliro lakuti, tinkadziwa kuti analipo m'mayiko angapo achiarabu, koma nthawi zonse anali kutali kwambiri ndi ndale. Ndipo tsopano, kwenikweni, akulowa ndale, akupambana mavoti ochuluka, ndipo akukankhiranso kwambiri ndikuyesera kuti apindule, tiyeni tinene malo a anthu. Ndipo iwo akuuwononga iwo. Iwo ndi okhwima kwambiri kuposa andale achisilamu omwe ali odziyimira pawokha, gulu lachisilamu la ubaleโฆ Ndipo chachiwiri, funso ndi chotsatira chake, kodi ife sitiri ku Aigupto, m'malo mwa chikhalidwe cha Turkey, choyandikira kwambiri ku Pakistani? chitsanzo? Chifukwa ku Turkey gulu lankhondo ndi chitsimikizo chachipembedzo, ndipo, mukudziwa, mtundu wina wokhazikika ndi boma lachi Islam. Koma ku Pakistan tili ndi zinaโฆ chabwino, mukudziwa Pakistan bwino kuposa ineโฆ. Koma chitsanzo chimenecho, mwinamwake, chikuyandikira kwambiri ku nkhani ya Aigupto, kapena ayi?
TA: Musaiwale kuti: mphamvu yayikulu mu ndale za ku Egypt lero, ngakhale zisankho, ndi gulu lankhondo! Izi zitha kubwera nthawi iliyonse ikafuna, zimagwira ntchito limodzi ndi United States, pazaka makumi awiri zapitazi, komanso ndi ma Israeli. Lakhala lamphamvu m'magulu ambiri, koma si gulu lankhondo lachipembedzo. Asilikali aku Egypt ali ngati gulu lankhondo la Turkey, ndi gulu lankhondo ladziko, pakadali pano. Pomwe ku Pakistan gulu lankhondo linapangidwa kukhala gulu lankhondo lachipembedzo pomwe United States idaganiza zomenya nkhondo ya Jihad motsutsana ndi Soviet Union, panthawi yomwe Soviet Union idalanda Afghanistan. Chinali chosankha cha Washington kugwiritsa ntchito Chisilamu ndi kugwiritsa ntchito chipembedzo polimbana ndi anthu aku Russia. Ndipo ndipamene gulu lankhondo la Pakistani, lomwe silinakhalepo gulu lankhondo la Chisilamu, lidapangidwa kukhala gulu lankhondo lachisilamu kuchokera pamwamba. Kenako anayesa kusintha. Choncho, zinthu zonsezi zimasiyana.
Koma ndikuganiza kuti asilikali a ku Aigupto akadali osiyana ndipo ngati a Salafis angasankhe kuchita zinthu zopenga, mwina akanatsutsidwa, osati ndi mabungwe a anthu, komanso ndi Asilamu apakati, mwina, ndipo ndithudi ndi asilikali. Pomwe ku Pakistan, ngakhale tikulankhula, asitikali ankhondo aku Pakistani akuyesera kukonza zipani zonse zachipembedzo kuti zikhale gulu lankhondo, lotchedwa "Defend Pakistan", kuti lipikisane zisankho zatsopano zomwe zichitike chaka chamawa. Choncho zinthu zimenezi n'zosiyanasiyana. Tisatengere mfundo yoti ma Salafi atulukira poyera โ modabwitsa, zimenezo si zoipa, chifukwa ndi bwino kuwaonaโฆ. Ndi bwino kukhala ndi oyimilira awo ku nyumba yamalamulo, ndi bwino kutsutsana nawo pagulu, kuposa kuwanyalanyaza kwathunthu, kapena kuwapangitsa kuti apite mobisa, kapena kuwaletsa, kapena kuwaletsa, zomwe zidzawapangitsa kusankha kuponya mabomba kuno, uko ndi kulikonse. Choncho ndi bwino kuti iwo ali poyera, ndipo iwo ayenera kutengedwa. Ndipo monga mukudziwira, nthawi zina amalumikizana ndi Asilamu odzisunga mumiyeso yomwe imasala akazi makamaka. Zonsezi ndi chinthu chimodzi chofunikira. Ku Middle East konse ndi mโmaiko onga Pakistan ndi India, ichi ndicho chinthu chimodzi chimene chimagwirizanitsa magulu onse achipembedzo, chifukwa chakuti alibe madongosolo otsimikizirika a chikhalidwe cha anthu ndi zachuma. Kotero iwo amapitirira kunyansidwa ndi chikhalidwe, motsutsa akazi, motsutsa izi, motsutsa izo. Kuti asonyeze kuti akuchita chinachake, kutanthauza kanthu kwa zinthu zakuthupi za anthu. Koma mukudziwa, tsopano, tili ndi mkhalidwe womwe zinthu izi zitha kulongosoledwa, ndipo zitha kumenyedwa ndi kutsutsana nazo.
LDC: Zikomo kwambiri, Tariq Ali. Tiyeni timuthandize...[mawu].
Lieven De Cauter ndi wafilosofi, wolemba komanso wotsutsa. Amaphunzitsa nzeru za chikhalidwe (ku Leuven, Brussels ndi Rotterdam). Mabuku ake aposachedwa: Chitukuko cha Capsular. Pa City in the Age of Fear (2004) ndi, monga co-editor, Heterotopia ndi mzinda (2008); Art ndi activism mu Age of Globalization (2011). Iye ndiye woyamba wa BRussells Tribunal.
ZNetwork imalandira ndalama kudzera mu kuwolowa manja kwa owerenga ake.
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