Alex Sakalis: Nginentshisekelo enkulu kule nhlangano yamazwe ngamazwe, e-pan-European olungiselela ukuyethula, imininingwane obusigcona ngayo...
U-Yanis Varoufakis: Angikugconi. Ukuthi nje kuthatha isikhathi ukusungula.
NJENGOBA: Yimaphi amandla othemba ukuwahlanganisa nale nhlangano yase-pan-European?
YV: Kwaqala njengombono ngemva kokuchotshozwa kwalokho engikubiza ngokuthi intwasahlobo yase-Athens, okwenzeka ehlobo. Kwacaca bha ukuthi ezingeni lombuso wezwe awukwazi ngisho nokubeka iziphakamiso mayelana nezwe lakho, ingasaphathwa eyokuthi i-eurozone iyonke. Ngihlangabezane ne-Eurogroup ezindaweni ezisondelene kakhulu futhi kwakusobala ukuthi kwakungeyona inkundla yokuxoxisana ngendlela yokusimamisa umnotho wezenhlalo waseYurophu, noma indlela yokuwenza ngentando yeningi. Lokho kuyinto engenakwenzeka โ ngeke kwenzeke.
Ngakho-ke niyazi ngesikhathi uhulumeni wethu eziketula ngempumelelo - ngoba yilokhu esakwenza - saketula thina, uhlelo lwethu ...
NJENGOBA: Ukuziketula?
YV: Yebo, kodwa lokho bekuyinhloso ye-troika. Yilokho abakujabulela ngempela ukukwenza. Ukusenza singagcini nje ngokuhlehla kukho konke esikushilo, kodwa nokusiphoqa ukuthi kube yithina okumele sifeze lolu hlelo ebesilunyanya futhi esakhethwa ukuba siluphonsele inselelo.
Ngakho-ke uma lokhu sekwenzekile, umbuzo owodwa wawuthi: bekufanele yini ukuqala kabusha okuthile eGreece? Ukuze siphinde sihambe? Okunye ukulunywa kwe-cherry? Futhi isiphetho sami kwaba ukuthi impendulo kulokho akukho. Bekungaba yini iphuzu lokuthi siqale omunye umkhankaso iminyaka emibili - lokho kuzothatha isikhathi esingakanani - ukuthi sibuyele lapho sasikhona, lapho ngangikhona, omunye ngokumelene neshumi nesishiyagalombili?
Uma ukuxilongwa kwami โโโโkunembile, okwenzeka eGreece kumane kuwukubonakaliswa - i-echo - yenhlekelele ejule kakhulu kuyo yonke i-eurozone, engeke ixazululwe kunoma yiliphi izinga lezwe noma lelungu lezwe. Isiphetho esisobala okumele umuntu asifinyelele kulokhu ukuthi noma uphikisa ukuhlakazwa kwenyunyana yezemali, bese nikwazi ukukhuluma ngepolitiki yezwe futhi ngendlela ephusile. Noma kufanele ukhulume ngomnyakazo we-pan-European woshintsho kuyo yonke i-eurozone. Kuyinto eyodwa noma enye.
Manje eyokuqala isikhanga abaningi. Futhi lena yinkulumompikiswano eyenzeka naseBritain, ngaphandle kwenyunyana yezemali kodwa ngaphakathi kwe-European Union. Ayingithandi. Hhayi ngoba nginokukhohlisa mayelana neBrussels, Frankfurt kanye ne-European Union. Ngibhale kabanzi futhi ngakhuluma kabanzi ngiphikisana nayo kanye i-DNA ye-European Union. Nokho-ke kuyinto eyodwa ukugxeka iqoqo lezikhungo ezifana ne-European Union, ukugxeka indlela elihlanganiswe ngayo kanye nendlela elisebenza ngayo. Kungenye into ukuphikisa ukuthi kufanele ihlakazwe. Lokhu sikubiza ngezibalo, i-hysteresis. Indlela oyithathayo uye ndawana thize, uma usufike lapho ndawana thize, ayisekho. Ngeke nje sijike sibheke indlela yokuqala futhi sizithole sesingaphandle lapho sasikade sikhona. Ngakho-ke sihambe le ndlela sibheke enhlanganweni ethile, kungakhathaliseki ukuthi iyingozi kangakanani, futhi uma sizama ukuhlehla kuyo, sizowela eweni.
Lowo ngumbono wami. Yilokho kanye okwenzeka ngawo-1920. Kwakukhona inyunyana ngaleso sikhathi. Akwenziwa ngokusemthethweni kodwa bekunamandla kakhulu. Kwakuyindinganiso yegolide. Ukuhlukana kwayo kwaletha ukulahlekelwa kwabantu okubhubhisayo futhi ngesaba kakhulu ukuthi sizoba nento efanayo manje.
Ngakho-ke, ngalandela ukucabanga kwami โโkuze kube yilapho ngingakwazi, ngokunengqondo, futhi ngafinyelela esiphethweni sokuthi inhlangano ye-pan-European iyona kuphela isixazululo. Kuzwakala kunengqondo, kodwa lo mbono wagxila engqondweni yami ngo-August lapho ngiqala ukuhamba kulo lonke elaseYurophu, futhi ngabona ukuthi kwakukhona indlala nokoma okukhulu yonke indawo engangiya kuyo ukuze ngithole umbono onjalo.
Abantu babeza ukuzongilalela ngezinkulungwane zabo, hhayi ngoba befuna kakhulu ukuboleka ubumbano eGreece, noma kimina, kodwa ngenxa nje yokuthi isipiliyoni salokhu kuxoxisana phakathi kweGreece ne-troika sashaya isibindi yonke indawo. Futhi abantu abeza ukuzolalela futhi ukuxoxa nami kanye nozakwethu bakhathazekile ngokwabo, amazwe abo, Europe. Ngakho-ke ngihlanganisa kokubili futhi ngiphetha ngesiphetho, okungenani kimi mathupha, ukuthi into kuphela okufanele ngiyilwe yilokhu kuhlangana ezingeni laseYurophu ngombono owodwa olula kakhulu, kodwa oqinile: ukwenza intando yeningi eYurophu.
Abantu bangase bathi, โpah, iYurophu ibuswa ngentando yeningi.โ Cha akunjalo. Akuyona neze intando yeningi. Ngakho-ke ukwenza intando yeningi empeleni kuwumbono oqine kakhulu ophikisana nayo yonke imicu esemzimbeni nasemphefumulweni walabo bantu baseBrussels.
NJENGOBA: Sitshele kabanzi mayelana nokuthi ubani obukade ukhuluma naye kuze kube manje ohambweni lwakho ukuthi ubani othemba ukumletha kule nkundla ye-pan-European?
YV: Lesi ngesinye sezizathu, ngokubona kwami, ukuthi kungani lokhu kufanele kube ukunyakaza, kungabi iqembu futhi kungabi yizicukuthwane. Lokhu akukona mayelana nokukunikeza uhlu, isimemo sosopolitiki ababalulekile. Uma kuwumnyakazo kumele kube wumnyakazo osuka emazingeni aphansi. Ngakho ngisanda kubuya e-Coimbra e-Portugal. Ngaphambi kwalokho bengise-Barcelona nemeya entsha ebabazekayo, u-Ada Colau, osebenzisana nami kulokhu. EFrance kunabantu abaningi, inqwaba yabantu abanentshisekelo: izifundiswa, izishoshovu, izinyunyana, osopolitiki. U-Arnaud Montebourg ngumuntu oyedwa ogibele nakanjani. Sinabantu abavela ku-Die Linke, abavela kwi-Social Democratic Party eJalimane, futhi abantu abahle kakhulu, abalungile ngempela abavela Inkundla ye-Kreisky e-Austria. Ngakho-ke njengoba ngike ngasho ngaphambilini, angihleki: kuthatha isikhathi ngaphambi kokuthi sethule lokhu.
NJENGOBA: Ingabe ukhona kulaba bantu ongathanda ukushiya i-EU? Ungabafaka yini abantu asebefike kulokho kwahlulela okuhlukile ekuhambeni kwakho?
YV: Hhayi-ke, angikholelwa ohlotsheni lwephathi ye-Leninist lapho udala khona amapharamitha kusenesikhathi bese abantu bevunyelwa ukuze bawanikeze usizo. Angicabangi ukuthi abantu abafuna ukushiya i-EU bazokhangwa kulokhu, ngoba lokhu kungaba ukunyakaza mayelana nokwenza intando yeningi eYurophu. Kungase kube khona, futhi kuzoba nezingxoxo eziningi mayelana nohlobo lwemali, mayelana nokuthi kwenzekani uma siphindaphinda isipiliyoni enganginaso, sitshelwa ukuthi uyakwamukela ukuhleleka kwezinto ezimisiwe noma umgwaqo omkhulu wakho. Ngakho-ke ngeke kube khona ukuma okusethiwe ngezinhlobo zemali ngaphandle kokuthi ngeke kube khona isimo esisethiwe esivuna ukuphuma ku-eurozone.
Umbono wami mathupha, futhi ngilokhu ngikuphinda lokhu, ukuthi kuyiphutha kwezombusazwe futhi ngokwezezimali kuyiphutha ukuqala ukuhlela ukuhlakazwa kwe-eurozone njengento ofuna ukuyizuza. Akufanele sesabe izinsongo zokuthi sizoxoshwa ku-eurozone. Kodwa leyo indaba ehlukile.
NJENGOBA: Ngakho-ke ingabe i-Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party ingamukeleka ukujoyina inhlangano yakho?
YV: Nakanjani. Kodwa uyabona ukuthi kubalulekile ukuliveza leli phuzu. Lokhu ngeke kube umfelandawonye wamaqembu. Kufanele kube umfelandawonye wezakhamizi. Bangaba yinoma yiliphi iqembu abalifunayo. Lokhu ngeke kuvume amaqembu kuwo. Akulona iqembu futhi akulona umbimbi lwamaqembu. Umbono uwukudala inhlangano ephansi yonkana eYurophu yezakhamizi zaseYurophu ezinentshisekelo yokwenza intando yeningi eYurophu. Bangaba yinoma yiliphi iqembu. Yebo bazozimbandakanya kweminye imikhankaso emiphakathini yangakubo, emazweni abo angamalungu, ezizweni zabo. Mhlawumbe uzoba nabantu abavela emaqenjini ahlukene abavela ezweni elilodwa. Ngingakucabanga kalula lokho, futhi empeleni ngingathanda lokho. Ngoba uma umbono ungekona ukuphindaphinda ipolitiki yezwe, kungani ungabi nakho lokho? Kodwa ngokwami, ngibala kakhulu kumaCorbynites.
NJENGOBA: Ingabe udweba i-manifesto?
YV: Yebo. Yilokhu esisebenza kukho.
NJENGOBA: Ubani obhalayo?
YV: Ngeke ngikunikeze amagama, futhi ngeke sisayine uma sesiyethula. Kuzoba umbhalo ontantayo wamahhala.
NJENGOBA: Ungakwazi ukusinika idethi yokukhishwa elinganiselwe?
YV: Kuzoba ngaphambi kukaKhisimusi.
AS: E-UK sibhekene nale nhlolovo yokuthi kufanele sihambe noma sihlale. I-openDemocracy ibixoxa ngokuthi lokhu kuzohlelwa kanjani kwabezindaba futhi sicabanga ukuthi kungase kufike entweni efana nalena: โingabe sithanda ibhizinisi ngaphezu kokuzonda abokufika, noma sizonda abokufika ngaphezu kokuthanda ibhizinisi?โ
YV: Leyo yindlela ethokozisayo yokuyibeka.
NJENGOBA: Kodwa lena akuyona impikiswano okufanele sibe nayo mayelana neYurophu. Lokhu kuyisinqumo esimangalisayo, esiyingqayizivele i-UK ebhekene nayo. Ungathanda ukubona kanjani inkulumo-mpikiswano yakhiwe mayelana nobudlelwano bethu neYurophu nokuthi yini okufanele siyifune ngeYurophu?
YV: "Sifuna iYurophu yentando yeningi noma cha?" Lokhu kubuyela emuva kulokho ebengikusho ngaphambilini. I-Europe kanye ne-European Union akuyona into efanayo. Inkinga nge-EU ukuthi inawo wonke umlando wombuso we-supranational, ngaphandle kokuba munye. Akukhona nje ukuthi akuwona umbuso ngokusemthethweni. I-DNA yayo, umlando wayo, indlela ehlanganiswe ngayo ihluke ngokuphelele endleleni isimo esivela ngayo. Umbuso uvela ngenxa yesidingo sezombangazwe sendlela, indlela yokusebenza ehlangene, elungisa ukungqubuzana kwezigaba nokungqubuzana kweqembu.
Ngakho thatha i-US noma i-UK. Umbuso wamaNgisi waqala ngesidingo sokuthola uhlobo oluthile lokulinganisa phakathi kwamakhosi ahlukene nama-barons. I-Magna Carta yayiwukungqubuzana phakathi kwegunya eliphakathi lenkosi kanye nama-barons, futhi kamuva kwaba nokungqubuzana phakathi kwezikhulu ezihlala phansi ngakwesinye isandla nabathengisi. Osozimboni bayangena bese kungena isigaba sabasebenzi. Amaqembu ahlukene axabana ngokungenasihawu efuna ukulawula. Futhi umbuso uvela ngalokhu kungqubuzana kwalezi zingcwecwe ze-tectonic eziphihlizeka zodwa futhi umbuso uba yiqoqo lezikhungo ezisemthethweni noma ezizama ukusekela ukufaneleka kwazo emyalezweni ovela kubantu bebonke, ukuze kwakhiwe uhlobo oluthile lwebhalansi amandla - ukulinganisa lezi zingxabano, ukuzinzisa.
Ngakho-ke nansi indlela isimo sombuso. Ngokwencazelo, umbuso, noma ungahambisani nentando yeningi, njengaseShayina ngokwesibonelo, nokho uyinqubo yezepolitiki ngenhloso yokusimamisa izingxabano zomphakathi. Manje iYurophu, iBrussels, ayizange ivele kanjalo. IYurophu yavela njengenqola yezimboni ezinzima. Kwaqalwa ngensimbi namalahle, base behlanganisa abalimi, base bekhetha omabhange, kwalandela imboni yezimoto kwagcina kuyizimboni zezinsiza, njalo njalo. Kwakuwumzamo wokudala amanani azinzile, ukukhawulela ukuncintisana, okuphambene ne-raison d'etre yesifunda saseBrithani kanye nezwe laseMelika. Ngakho-ke umqondo wawuwukuzinzisa amanani kanye nokumisa ukungqubuzana phakathi kwemboni yaseJalimane, imboni yaseFrance, imboni yasenyakatho ye-Italy, imboni yamaDashi - lolo hlobo lwento.
Kunomehluko omkhulu phakathi kombuso ovela njengendlela yezombangazwe yokusimamisa ukungqubuzana kwezigaba kanye nabasebenzi bokuphatha be-cartel. Imboni yaseBrithani ayizange ibe yingxenye yaleyo nqola futhi yingakho iBrithani yafika sekwephuzile kangaka Emakethe Evamile YaseYurophu. IBrithani ingene ngempumelelo esikhundleni sombuso olahlekile ngokuba nokufinyelela kulezi zimakethe. Kepha izimakethe zase zivele zivalwe yi-central cartel yaseYurophu. Ngakho-ke isizathu sokuthi kungani ukusungulwa kweBrithani kungakaze kuthakaselwe yi-European Union yingoba ayizange ibe yingxenye yenqubo ye-cartelising eyaholela eBrussels. Akuyona into embi leyo. Kodwa ngizama ukuchaza ukuthi kungani eJalimane, eHolland, eBelgium, ukusungulwa, ama-elite, angalokothi abuze i-European Union, kuyilapho eBrithani ibuzwa.
Ngakho-ke lapha e-UK ugcina unesimo lapho kungekho muntu osithandayo. Isigaba sabasebenzi asikuthandi, ngoba i-EU ayinazo izithakazelo zesigaba sabasebenzi baseBrithani emqondweni. Kodwa ngesikhathi esifanayo imboni yaseBrithani ayinayo ingxenye efanayo kuyo. IDolobha linesandla kulo, kanti amanye amabhizinisi, amanye amaphakethe amancane anawo. Konke kulandela kulokhu. I-European Union kwadingeka yakhe uhlobo lwemali efanayo ngoba uma uzokwakha inqola udinga ukuba nezintengo ezizinzile. Iminyaka engamashumi amabili yokuqala ukuzinza kwamanani kwaqinisekiswa nguBretton Woods. Ngemuva kuka-1971, iYurophu izama ukwakha uhlelo lwayo lwegolide olujwayelekile lweBretton Woods, eyabe yaba yi-euro. Ngakho iBrithani isesimweni esibucayi uma iqhathaniswa ne-EU. IBrithani ilokhu ithi emhlabeni wonke ifuna imakethe eyodwa kodwa ayifuni iBrussels. Kodwa ngeke babe nakho lokho.
NJENGOBA: Nokho, ngokuvamile basebenzisa isibonelo saseNorway noma saseSwitzerland.
YV: INorway neSwitzerland bahlehlisele eBrussels ngempumelelo. Uyakufuna-ke lokho?
NJENGOBA: Inkulumo-mpikiswano ayivamisile ukufika lapho...
YV: Yebo, ilapho okufanele iye khona. Ngakho-ke umbuzo uwukuthi, noma ngabe uphuma kuNyunyana, izindinganiso zabasebenzi, izindinganiso zemvelo ekugcineni zizonqunywa ezingeni laseYurophu.
NJENGOBA: Ingoba umnotho wethu ungowomhlaba futhi uxhumene kakhulu?
YV: Bheka i-TPP, i-TTIP nakho konke lokho. Lokhu akusekho ngamatherifu nama-quota, kumayelana namazinga. Imayelana namazinga ezimboni, amazinga emvelo, amazinga abasebenzi kanye namalungelo obunikazi. Ngakho ubani obhala le mithetho? Ngeke kube yizingxoxo phakathi kweBrithani ne-EU ezibhala leyo mithetho. Kuzoba seBrussels lapho kuzobhalwa khona le mithetho. Futhi iBrithani izoba nokukhetha ukuyithatha noma ukuyishiya, ngaphandle kwe-EU.
Ngakho-ke umbono wami uthi izinkinga ze-EU zihlobene nendlela eyakhiwa ngayo kwasekuqaleni njengendawo engenantando yeningi. Ayinayo intando yeningi ngokuphelele ngokuklama. IBrithani ayikho - ngenxa yomehluko phakathi kweBrussels ngokumelene neLondon ngokwe-DNA. Ngokombono wami, amaBrits athuthukayo awanayo enye indlela ngaphandle kokuhlala e-EU futhi ahlanganyele nathi ekuzameni ukuyenza intando yeningi. Uma sihluleka ukwenza intando yeningi ku-EU, akwenzi mehluko omkhulu ukuthi singaphakathi noma siphumile. Ngaphandle uma kunjalo iBrithani ithola indlela yokushintsha ama-60% ohwebo lwayo ne-EU, nomunye umuntu. Lokhu ngeke ikwazi ukukwenza.
NJENGOBA: U-Owen Jones ubiza lokho akubizayo Lexit โ ukuphuma ngophiko lwesokunxele ku-EU. Ungathini kumuntu onjengaye ongasekela konke okushoyo nge-Europe kanye nentando yeningi, kodwa asafuna ukushiya i-EU?
YV: Hhayi-ke, ngibhekene nalolu hlobo lwengxabano kwelakithi namaqabane ami akudala kuhulumeni ashiya asungula iqembu iPopular Unity Party, asho into efanayo. Asikwazi ukuba nengxoxo yangempela ne-Eurogroup, ngakho ukuphuma kuyisixazululo kuphela.
Ingxabano yami ithi azikho izixazululo ezilula. Ngifisa sengathi singakha enye indawo yonke lapho singaba khona izinga lokuzimela, i-autarky, elikuvumela ukuthi uhlanze izitebele ze-Augean. Awukwazi. Umqondo wokuthi sizobuyela empilweni yokwelusa ukulima awunangqondo. Namuhla, ngisho nezivuni ezihlanganisiwe zibuswa ngogesi amazwe ethu angawakhiqizi ngempela.
Awukwazi ukuhlehla emakethe ehlanganiswe umhlaba wonke futhi ikakhulukazi kusukela emakethe yaseYurophu. Ngakho-ke uma uphuma ngaphandle kokuba namandla okubamba iqhaza embusweni wentando yeningi kuleyo makethe, lapho-ke uzohlala ungaphansi kwemakethe ephethwe ochwepheshe futhi uyoba namadigri enkululeko amancane nakakhulu kunalawo onawo manje.
Ngicabanga ukuthi kubaluleke kakhulu ukuthi ungaweli ogibeni lobuzwe lokucabanga ukuthi ungabuyela emuva kuzwelonke. Lokho akusho ukuthi kufanele sihambisane neBrussels. Angihambisani nokuhlala ngaphakathi kwe-EU nokudlala ibhola. Ngicabanga ukuthi ngikufakazele lokhu ngaphandle kokungabaza okunengqondo. Ngikholelwa ekuhlaleni ukuze ngichithe imithetho. Ngisho nokungena emkhankasweni wokungalaleli komphakathi ngaphakathi. Lokho kimina kuyisu lophiko lwesokunxele. Hhayi "Lexit".
NJENGOBA: Angakanani amandla ohulumeni kazwelonke phezu kwenqubomgomo yezomnotho? Ngesikhathi usengungqongqoshe wezeziMali ingabe wawuzizwa uphethe izwe lakho?
YV: Cha kuncike. IBrithani ihluke kakhulu eGrisi. Hhayi nje ngoba ingumnotho omkhulu futhi obalulekile, kodwa futhi ngoba ayikho ku-eurozone. Uma ungekho ku-eurozone une-degree inkululeko eyengeziwe, akukho kungabaza ngalokho. Futhi ngifisa sengathi asikaze singene kwi-eurozone, okungafani nenkulumo yami engicabanga ukuthi kufanele siphume. Umehluko omkhulu.
Ngakho-ke uma ungaphakathi kwe-eurozone, izinga lakho lenkululeko lincane, uma lingeyena uziro. Okuwukuphela kwento esasingayenza kwakuwukuxoxisana kabusha nalo lonke leli phakethe, ukuze kusinike inkululeko ethile. Ngakho-ke enye yezinto le nhlangano ezophakamisa izindlela esingahlanganisa ngazo ukuthuthukiswa kwe-Europeanisation yezindawo ezithile ezifana nokuphathwa kwezikweletu, njengomkhakha wamabhange, ukutshalwa kwezimali okuhlanganisiwe, ukulwa nobumpofu - ukuthola izixazululo zaseYurophu zalezi zindlela ukuze kwakhiwe ezinye. ukusabalalisa, ukunikeza amazinga engeziwe enkululeko yezinqubomgomo zezenhlalakahle nezomnotho ezingeni lezifunda, amadolobha kanye nesizwe. Ngikholelwa ukuthi lokhu kungenzeka. Kuzwakala njengokungqubuzana, kodwa ngikholelwa ukuthi kungenzeka ukuthola lezi ziqu zenkululeko uma singaba baseYurophu izinkinga ezithile ezinkulu.
NJENGOBA: Lokhu kuphikiswa kwezomnotho okushiyekile ku-ordoliberalism kuzofanela kudlulele ngale kweKeynesโฆ?
YV: I-Textbook Keynes ukuze uqiniseke. Kodwa lokhu kungaba uhlobo olusha lwe-Keynes oluvumelanisa nezimo zaseYurophu. Sekuyiminyaka manje nginabangane bami uJames Galbraith noStuart Holland, owayeyiLungu lePhalamende lezabasebenzi eVauxhall, besihlanganisa lokho esikubiza ngokuthi '.isiphakamiso esithobekile', ebiza isihloko esivela ku-Jonathan Swift, okuwumbono we-Keynesian wokuthi yini okufanele yenziwe nge-eurozone esebenza ezingeni le-eurozone hhayi ezingeni lezizwe-zizwe.
Ngakho-ke kuyo sichaza ukuthi izikhungo ezikhona - ibhange eliphakathi, indlela yokuzinza yaseYurophu, ibhange lokutshala izimali laseYurophu - zingasetshenziswa kanjani ukuze zenze isivumelwano esisha saseYurophu. Isivumelwano esisha esihlaza esiholwa yi-Europe, ibhange lokutshalwa kwezimali lidlala indima yokuthi ngaphansi kwe-New Deal of Roosevelt, umgcinimafa wombuso odlalwa ngokukhipha izikweletu zomgcinimafa ngenhloso yokuqoqa ukonga okweqile ukuze kuholele ekutshalweni kwezimali. Ngicabanga ukuthi singakwenza lokhu ngebhange lokutshalwa kwezimali laseYurophu, sisekelwa ibhange eliphakathi laseYurophu - esikhundleni sokunciphisa inani lokuthenga isikweletu sikahulumeni. Ingathenga amabhondi ebhange lokutshalwa kwezimali, ngakho-ke iqinisekise ukuthi noma yikuphi ukuncishiswa kwenani okusha okwenzekayo kuqondiswe ngqo ekutshalweni kwezimali, ikakhulukazi kubuchwepheshe obuluhlaza. Kunezindlela ongazicabanga ukungenelela ngokushesha enkingeni yase-Europe namuhla ukuze uzinzise ubunxiwankulu base-Europe ukuze ukwazi ukuqala ukuxoxa ngezinhlelo zezepolitiki zokubuyiswa kwentando yeningi. Kuphakathi kwalokho noma ubuqaba.
NJENGOBA: Noma isimo samanje?
YV: Isimo sequo akuseyona inketho, ngoba siyahlukana. Angikholwa ukuthi isimo esikhona siyasimama, futhi ngicabanga ukuthi wonke umuntu uyakwazi lokhu. Thatha i-Italy. I-Italy iyizwe elinensalela ye-akhawunti yamanje. Ikweleta ingxenye enkulu yezikweletu zayo zomphakathi, okuyinto enhle. Kodwa ayinakusimama. Bebenemali enqwabelene eyinhloko ephakathi kuka-2 no-2.3% eminyakeni embalwa edlule kodwa nokho isilinganiso sabo sesikweletu ku-GDP sikhula kakhulu. Manje lokho kukutshela ukuthi kukhona okungahambi kahle, uma unezwe elifana ne-Italy, eliyinkimbinkimbi, elikhiqiza yonke into ukusuka e-Armani ukuya eFerrari kuya e-Fiats, futhi banemali esele ye-akhawunti yamanje. Banezinsalela ezimbili ezingaphezulu - insalela yokuhweba kanye nensalela yesevisi bese benemali eningi kuma-akhawunti ayinhloko kahulumeni. Nokho bacwile ezikweletini. Lokhu kukutshela okuthile.
U-Renzi ngolunye usuku waphuma futhi washo into ephawulekayo. Uthe uma uBrussels enqaba isabelomali sakhe, uzohambisa okufanayo kubo. Lokho kuwukwedelela okusobala kwesivumelwano sezimali se-European Union. Kungani ekwenza? Ingabe ungumguquli? Cha ngoba uyazi ukuthi uma eziphatha ngendlela, izwe lakhe lizowela emgodini omnyama noma limlahle. Sithola okufanayo eFrance, eSpain okumenyezelwa njengendaba yempumelelo enkulu ye-austerity njengoba sikhuluma - lezi azinasimeme. NoSchauble uyakwazi lokhu. Uyazi ukuthi i-eurozone ayikwazi ukuthatha futhi ibambe enye igagasi emnothweni wamazwe ngamazwe - uhlobo lwe-shockwave olukhula manje. Ngakho-ke angicabangi ukuthi i-status quo iyinketho.
NJENGOBA: Ungakwazi yini ukuchaza ngokwemibandela yabafundi ukuthi yini iPlani B yakho?
YV: Empeleni ngayibiza ngo-Plan X - ukuze nje inembe - futhi kwakukhona izingxenye ezimbili kuyo. Empeleni bekunezinhlelo ezimbili ezihlukene. Omunye wayekhathazekile ngokuthi singabhekana kanjani nesimo uma siphoqeleka ukuba siphume e-euro. Ngoba kwakukhona lezi zinsongo futhi nakuba ngangikholelwa ukuthi azikholakali futhi azisoze zakwenza, noma ngabe zifuna, futhi ngangikholelwa ukuthi akukho emthethweni ukuthi bakwenze futhi bazoba nezinkinga ezinkulu uma wenza. Noma kunjalo, njengongqongqoshe wezeziMali, ngaba nesibopho sokwenza izinhlelo eziphuthumayo uma kwenzeka bekwazi ukusikhipha.
Ngakho-ke lokhu, ikakhulukazi, bekungu-Plan X. Ngenkathi uqala ukuzama ukusonga ingqondo yakho ngokuthi kungenzeka kanjani lokhu kuhlelwa kabusha kwakho konke ngemali ehlukile, lapho ucabanga kakhulu ngakho yilapho kwakubonakala kuyinkimbinkimbi kakhulu. Ngaso sonke isikhathi uma ucabanga ukuthi usuxazulule inkinga, udala ezinye eziyishumi. Ngakho ithimba engangisebenza kulo lalisebenza ubusuku nemini lizama ukucabanga ngazo zonke izimo. Futhi-ke ubunzima ngalokho kwakuwukuthi kwakufanele kube yiqembu elincane, kungenjalo kwakuyoba isiprofetho esizigcwalisayo. Ngakho-ke kwakunguPlan X.
Kodwa-ke kwakukhona enye, hhayi uhlelo lwezimo eziphuthumayo, kodwa isethi yezimpendulo engangizilungiselela isikhashana, okungenani unyaka, ngokuhlala e-euro ngemva kokuvala amabhange. Ngangazi ukuthi bazosabisa ngamabhange futhi ngangikwazi lokho kudala ngaphambi kokuba siqokwe. Futhi izinyathelo ezintathu engizituse njengokuphindisela, okokuqala, ukumemezela ukwakhiwa kohlelo lokukhokha oluhambisanayo, uhlelo lwe-elekthronikhi lwe-euro; okwesibili ukugunda izinwele noma kuhlehliswe ngeminyaka engama-30 ukukhokhwa kwamabhondi kaHulumeni waseGreece aphethwe yi-ECB, afinyelela ku-27 billion. Lokho kungaba isikhali esikhulu esingasisebenzisa, ngoba lonke uhlelo lwe-QE lwe-ECB lungaba nezinkinga zezomthetho ezinkulu uma senza lokho. Okwesithathu, ukushintsha umthetho olawula ukusebenza kwebhange elikhulu laseGreece. Ngakho-ke lokho bekuwukuhlala ku-euro namabhange avaliwe, ngemuva kwesinyathelo esinolaka se-ECB.
Lelo kwakuyisu engangicabanga ukuthi libalulekile, hhayi i-Plan X. I-Plan X yayikhona uma kwenzeka siphushwa ngaphandle kwe-euro. Ngangingakholwa ukuthi kwakuthembekile, kodwa kwakudingeka ngibe nakho, njengoba nje uNgqongqoshe Wezokuvikela kufanele abe nezinhlelo eziphuthumayo uma kwenzeka iTurkey ihlasela, ngisho noma engakholelwa ukuthi iTurkey izohlasela.
Kodwa lezo zinqubomgomo ezintathu engangizophendula ngazo ukuvalwa kwamabhange, lowo kwakuwumdlalo wangempela kimi. Kwakuwuhlelo lokuhlala e-euro nokuphatha ukuphila ngaphakathi kwayo, namabhange avaliwe, kuyilapho izingxoxo ziveza umphumela ofanele. Ngangihlale ngazi ukuthi kuze kube yilapho futhi ngaphandle kokuba sibonisa amandla okungazinikeli ngemva kokuba amabhange evaliwe isonto elilodwa noma amabili, sasizoyiswa kubahlanzi.
NJENGOBA: Futhi ucabanga ukuthi izwe elincane, elingenamali elingenabambisene nabo ku-eurozone belingakwenza lokho?
YV: Yebo ngokuphelele. Bheka uMario Draghi egcina nje i-euro ndawonye. Ngaphandle kwe-QE bekungeke kube khona i-euro. I-QE ilinganisela ngokweqile ngokomthetho ngoba uDraghi ubhekene nezinselele ezinkulu ezivela e-Bundesbank, futhi inselele enkulu ukuthi uthenga izimpahla ezingase zibe ngaphansi kokugunda izinwele, futhi impendulo evamile yeBhange Elikhulu ukuthi ngeke bakubekezelele ukugunda izinwele. Kodwa ibhange selivele linezikweleti ezingama-27 billion zefa laseGreece kusukela ngo-2010 elalisithengile. Uma ngimemezela ukugunda izinwele ngenxa yesinyathelo esinonya kakhulu sokuvala amabhange ethu, ngokuzumayo lonke uhlelo lwe-quantitative easing (QE) lungaba sengozini. U-Weidmann kanye ne-Bundesbank bazothi, "yabona, uthenga izimpahla manje ezigunda izinwele." Ngakho sasinaso isikhali, kodwa ngavinjelwa ukuba sisisebenzise.
NJENGOBA: At i-openDemocracy sithathekile nge-TTIP. Ungqongqoshe waseSyriza engikhulume naye muva nje uthe kuyinkolelo yakhe ukuthi uHulumeni waseSyriza akasoze adlula i-TTIP. Ingabe kwake kwaba khona izingxoxo mayelana ne-TTIP ngenkathi ukuhulumeni?
YV: Cha ngeke. Ngiqinisekile ukuthi lo umuzwa wangempela. Kodwa futhi ake ngikukhumbuze u-Alex ukuthi sasilokhu sithi iminyaka nangezinyanga zezingxoxo, nsuku zonke, ukuthi ngeke sisayine imemorandamu yesithathu.
NJENGOBA: Ngakho...ucabanga ukuthi ingcindezi ingaba namandla kakhulu uma ingafika kulelo qophelo?
YV: Sengikuphendulile.
NJENGOBA: Umbuzo wami wokugcina umayelana nabezindaba, nokuthi bazosabela kanjani. Uzobhekana kanjani nabezindaba maqondana nomnyakazo wakho omusha? Kungase kungabi kuhle...
YV: Oh ungakhathazeki ngibe nokuqeqeshwa okuningi.
NJENGOBA: Ngakho-ke ufunde izifundoโฆ
YV: Isifundo esisodwa esibaluleke kakhulu engisifundile ukuthi akunandaba. Ngoba uma umlayezo uqinile, unikezwe isidingo sokunyakaza okuveza lesi sifiso sokulawula intando yeningi phezu kwemithombo yamandla eYurophu, ngicabanga ukuthi isisekelo sabantu sizosithwala, njengoba kwenza eGreece. Siwine amavoti angama-61.3% kwireferendamu ngokumelene nawo wonke amathelevishini, isiteshi somsakazo kanye nawo wonke amaphephandaba. Bonke babekhankasela ukuthi yebo. Besingakwenza eGreece, singakwenza eYurophu.
Futhi ekugcineni, kunjengoba uHomer esifundisile. Akulona uhambo olungako olubalulekile njengendawo oya kuyo. Yimpi enhle futhi kufanele siyilwe.
U-Yanis Varoufakis ungungqongqoshe wezezimali waseGreece, uProfesa Wezomnotho eNyuvesi yase-Athens kanye noProfessor Ovakashelayo eLyndon B. Johnson Graduate School of Public Affairs, University of Texas, Austin. Ungumbhali we I-Global Minotaur (Izincwadi Zed). Ibhulogi yakhe lapha.
U-Alex Sakalis ungumhleli we-openDemocracy. Uhlela i- Ingabe IYurophu Ingayenza? mpikiswano.
I-ZNetwork ixhaswa kuphela ngokuphana kwabafundi bayo.
Nikela
1 Amazwana
Kuhle uHomer omdala! Yebo bengicabanga ukuthi muva nje, ngicabanga ukuthi uhambo nendawo, hhayi eyodwa noma enye.
Kufana nenkulumo kaMachiavelli yokuthi "ukuphela kuqinisekisa izindlela" engicabanga ukuthi ukuphika umphumela. Ngingathi eqinisweni lesikhathi azikho iziphetho zokugcina ngakho-ke izindlela esizisebenzisayo ohambweni zizodala futhi zichaze iqiniso lezindawo esifika kuzo & ukuthi siguqukela kubo bani ohambweni, sizohamba futhi siguqukele ekuhawukeleni noma kudlame & ukubusa? Yonke impilo iyabonakalisa, ukwazi kuyisibuko futhi wonke umhlaba ugcwele ama-ripples adalwe izindlela nemiphumela yezenzo zethu.
Kodwa kunjalo, yebo Homer! Masiqale ukufika ezindaweni nohambo nezindawo ezingaphezu kwalezo, zisivumele ukuba sivukele enhlalakahleni engcono ye-Wits & namakhono amakhulu Intando yeningi yeqiniso engasivumela sonke. I-Europe isasele amamayela ngaphambi kokuthi iphumule!
Ngiyajabula ukuzwa umbono ka-Yanis onika ithemba futhi ngikholwa ukuthi muhle futhi ungenzeka! Yebo, ngiyakusekela futhi ngibheke ngabomvu ukuzwa okwengeziwe.
Isakhamuzi u-Antonio