Sichitha ihora lonke nombhali wenganekwane, owine imiklomelo u-Arundhati Roy. Uwine uMklomelo ka-Booker ngo-1997 ngenoveli yakhe ethi “UNkulunkulu Wezinto Ezincane.” Ngo-2017, eminyakeni engama-20 ngemuva kokushicilelwa kwenoveli yakhe yokuqala, washicilela enye incwadi yezinganekwane, ephuma ephepheni, enesihloko esithi “Umnyango Wenjabulo Enkulu.” Le noveli ifakwe ohlwini olude lomklomelo we-Booker futhi yaqokelwa Umklomelo We-National Book Critics Circle. Le ncwadi iye yanconywa ngokuthi “iqhawe lezwe eligcwele iziqhwaga.” U-Arundhati Roy uthole umklomelo we-Lannan Foundation Cultural Freedom ka-2002, futhi ubuntatheli bakhe nezindatshana zakhe ziqoqwe ezincwadini ezimbalwa, okuhlanganisa nethi “The End of Imagination,” “Field Notes on Democracy: Listening to Grasshoppers” kanye “Capitalism: A Ghost Story.”
AMY U-GOODMAN: Lokhu Intando yeningi Manje!, democracynow.org, I-War and Peace Report. Ngingu-Amy Goodman, no-Nermeen Shaikh.
I-NERMEEN SHAIKH: Sichitha ihora lonke nombhali wenganekwane, owine imiklomelo u-Arundhati Roy. Uthole umklomelo weBooker ngo-1997 ngenoveli yakhe UNkulunkulu Wezinto Ezincane. Ngo-2017, eminyakeni engama-20 ngemuva kokushicilelwa kwenoveli yakhe yokuqala, washicilela omunye umsebenzi wezinganekwane, osanda kuphuma ephepheni, onesihloko esithi. Inkonzo Yenjabulo Kakhulu. Lesi isiqeshana sefilimu emfishane esethula inoveli, esilandiswa ngu-Arundhati Roy futhi siqondiswe ngu-Sanjay Kak no-Tarun Bhartiya.
I-ARUNDHATI INDLELA: Wayehlala emathuneni njengesihlahla. Kwathi kusempondo zankomo wawabona amagwababa ephuma wamukela amalulwane ekhaya. Lapho kuhwalala wenza okuphambene. …
Lapho abantu bemqamba ngamagama—umdwebi ongenasekisi, indlovukazi engenasigodlo—wayevumela ubuhlungu ukuba budlule emagatsheni akhe njengomoya ohelezayo futhi wasebenzisa umculo wamaqabunga akhe akhencezayo njengeoli ukuze adambise ubuhlungu. …
“Ubani othi igama lami ngingu-Anjum? Angiyena u-Anjum, ngingu-Anjuman. Ngingu mehfil, ngiwumbuthano. Kuwo wonke umuntu futhi akukho muntu, kukho konke futhi lutho. Ingabe ukhona omunye ongathanda ukummema? Wonke umuntu umenyiwe.” …
UComrade othandekayo u-Azad Bharathiya Garu, Umlingani wami u-Suguna uyazi ukukuthumelela le ncwadi lapho ezwa ukuthi angisekho. Njengoba nazi ukuthi sivinjelwe, singabantu abangaphansi komhlaba, futhi le ncwadi evela kimi ungayibiza ngokuthi ingaphansi komhlaba. …
Indlela yokuxoxa indaba ephukile? Ngokuba kancane kancane ube wonke umuntu. Cha. Ngokuhamba kancane ube yikho konke.
I-NERMEEN SHAIKH: Leyo ifilimu emfushane eyethula incwadi yakamuva ka-Arundhati Roy. Ifilimu iqondiswe nguSanjay Kak noTarun Bhartiya. Inkonzo Yenjabulo Kakhulu wafakwa ohlwini olude ukuze athole uMklomelo we-Booker futhi waqokelwa Umklomelo We-National Book Critics Circle Award. The Washington Post wayincoma le ncwadi, ebhala, ecaphuna, “Lesi yindalo emangalisayo, indaba esondelene neyamazwe ngamazwe, egcwele amahlaya kanye nentukuthelo, indaba egcwele abantu ababuthaka kakhulu emhlabeni nakuba ihlasela izigebengu ezinonya kakhulu ze-Subcontinent. … [Iyokushiya] umangala ngokushisa kwentukuthelo yayo nokujula kobubele bayo.”
AMY U-GOODMAN: Umhlaziyi wezincwadi waseNdiya uNilanjana Roy wayincoma le noveli ngokuthi, “iqhawe lezwe eligcwele izinkunzi.” U-Arundhati Roy uthole uMklomelo we-2002 we-Lannan Foundation Cultural Freedom, futhi ubuntatheli bakhe nezindatshana zakhe ziqoqwe ezincwadini ezimbalwa, kubandakanya. Ukuphela Kokucabanga, Amanothi Enkundla Ngentando Yeningi: Ukulalela Izintethe futhi I-Capitalism: Indaba Yesipoki.
Arundhati Roy, wamukelekile emuva e-United States futhi Intando yeningi Manje!
I-ARUNDHATI INDLELA: Ngiyabonga. Ngiyabonga, Amy.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Kuyilungelo elikhulu ukuba nawe. Ngakho-ke incwadi yakho isanda kuphuma ngephepha, futhi sifuna ukukhuluma nangempendulo yayo kulo nyaka. Kodwa kungani ungaqali ngokukhuluma ngokuthi kungani ukhethe ukubuyela ekubhaleni inoveli, nesihloko, Inkonzo Yenjabulo Kakhulu?
I-ARUNDHATI INDLELA: Uyazi, lapho ngiqeda-lapho ngibhala UNkulunkulu Wezinto Ezincane, angikaze, ngizibone ngingumuntu, uyazi, ngoba ngangibhale incwadi ephumelelayo, kwadingeka ngiqhubeke ngenza into efanayo. Futhi ngangihlala ngithi ngizobhala incwadi kuphela uma nginencwadi engizoyibhala. Futhi iminyaka engu-20 ngichitha uhlobo lokuhamba ngidabula eNdiya, niyazi, ezigodini nasemahlathini, noma ngabe eKashmir, emahlathini aseBastar, ngizama ukuqonda izinguquko ezinkulu kakhulu nezizumayo ezazenzeka, ikakhulukazi ukuthumela lokho abakubiza ngokuthi. Ukuhwebelana kwembulunga yonke, uyazi? Futhi kwakusobala ukuthi lo mnotho omusha wawuhambisana nomfutho omkhulu wobuzwe bamaHindu, nokuthi bobabili babengabangane abahambayo. Futhi manje, kusobala, niyazi, isezingeni eliphezulu. Izimpi zombili zihlangene kakhulu enqulwini. Nami-
I-NERMEEN SHAIKH: Uma bengikwazi ukuphazamisa kafushane, u-Arundhati—
I-ARUNDHATI INDLELA: Yebo.
I-NERMEEN SHAIKH: Uma ungachaza nje umongo lapho ukukhululeka noma ukuhwebelana kwembulunga yonke kwangena eNdiya? Yini eyabangela ukuguquka komnotho ngemva, ngempela, amashumi eminyaka ohlobo oluhlukile lwesistimu yezomnotho?
I-ARUNDHATI INDLELA: Hhayi-ke, kusobala, kuze kube, niyazi, ngo-1990, iNdiya kwakuyilokho-ngiqonde ukuthi, i-India yazibiza ngokuthi izwe elingachemile. Yayinomnotho ovikelekile, umnotho owawusebenza kabi, ngenxa yezizathu esizaziyo sonke, ngenkohlakalo enkulu, yalezi zinhlobo zentuthuko ezigxile kakhulu. Kodwa ngemva—empeleni, ngemva kokuphela kwempi e-Afghanistan—ngiqonde ukuthi, impi ayikapheli e-Afghanistan, kodwa ngemva kokuwa kweSoviet Union e-Afghanistan, yaba—i-India yavumelana ngokuphelele. Manje isizicabangela njengomfelandawonye ka-Israyeli kanye ne-US Futhi izimakethe-futhi lapho umhlaba uphenduka unipolar-manje ubhidlika lokho, kodwa-ke, izimakethe zavulwa, futhi ukukhululeka kwangena ngesivinini okwakunzima ukukucabanga. Uyazi, zonke izinhlobo zokuvikela abasebenzi zahlakazwa. Imifula, amahlathi—yonke into yayizimele. Manje imfundo, impilo. Konke kusesimweni sokuwa. Uyazi, ngandlela thize, i-polarization sonke esaziyo ukuthi ukuhwebelana kwembulunga yonke kuletha kuyenzeka.
Futhi uke—kwaba sengathi unezwe elinobugovu, okuyizwe elibusayo futhi eligcwele amakoloni, okwathi, ngo-1947—kusukela ngo-1947 kuya ku-1990, lazama, ngisho noma lalingokomfanekiso,—ngiqonde, ukunyakaza okunamandla ku-' 60s, isibonelo, babekhuluma ngokwabiwa kabusha kwengcebo, ukwabiwa kabusha komhlaba, ubulungisa, uguquko. Kodwa kungazelelwe lo mnotho omusha usuphushe ngisho inkulumo eshubile yafaka endaweni lapho abantu becela nje ukuthi, ake sithi, abomdabu baqhubeke nokuhlala kulowo mhlaba omncane abanawo, esikhundleni sokuthi uthathwe yinhlangano. Umqondo wokwabiwa kabusha usuphelile. Kodwa-ke, unesimo lapho, ngandlela thize, kuwuhlobo lwe-feudalism yezinkampani, ngoba umhlaba owawungowabantu abaphezulu manje ungowezinkampani, ezisezingeni eliphezulu, niyazi?
Ngakho-ke, i-caste, i-feudalism, i-capitalism-konke kuhlangana ngendlela ehluke kakhulu kuleyo ndawo. Futhi ube—ngokwesibonelo, ube neminyaka engu-50 yokuthinta okuthile kulokho esikubiza ngokuthi ukubhuka, lokho okubiza ngokuthi isenzo sokuqinisekisa. Manje usunebhizinisi elizimele lapho amaDalits aphinde axoshwa khona, axoshwa ezikhungweni zemfundo, axoshwa emisebenzini, axoshwa-ukuze ube nokuhlanganiswa konxiwankulu bezinga eliphezulu. Unesimo lapho, njengakuyo yonke indawo, uyazi, imindeni eyikhulu inamaphesenti angama-25, noma okuthize, kwe I-GDP. Futhi unokuhlanganiswa kokungalingani, okuyinto emangalisayo.
Kodwa ungakuphatha kanjani lokho endaweni enjalo? Ukuphatha—ngefulegi lobuzwe bamaHindu, ngokwenza abantu abalahlekelwayo bazizwe sengathi banqoba isizwe samaHindu. Futhi uhlukanisa umphakathi wamaSulumane. Ukhetho olwedlule lubonise ukuthi awulidingi ivoti lamaSulumane. Ngakho-ke amaSulumane aseNdiya, angabalelwa ezigidini eziyi-150 kuye kwezingama-200, manje asengabantu abengeziwe. Abanjalo—ivoti labo alidingeki. Umsebenzi abaziphilise ngawo—uyazi, imboni yenyama, imboni yezinkomo, imboni yesikhumba—konke kuyahlaselwa, kwavalwa. Ngakho-ke baphushelwe phansi. Benziwa i-ghettoized, lynched. Ngakho-ke, niyazi, ubuzwe bamaHindu yinqubomgomo yokuphatha yokuqeda isiyaluyalu esilethwe yinkululeko.
I-NERMEEN SHAIKH: Hhayi-ke, ake ngibuyele emuva, ngoba umbuzo wokuqala u-Amy wawubuza wawumayelana—futhi ngikuphazamise—mayelana nokuthi yini ekubuyisele enganekwaneni. Ngakho, ngandlela thile, lapho ubhala UNkulunkulu Wezinto Ezincane, eyaphuma ngo-1997?
I-ARUNDHATI INDLELA: Yebo.
I-NERMEEN SHAIKH: Ngabe kunjalo? Ngaleso sikhathi, yilapho lezi zinguquko ezinkulu ngenxa yenkululeko zazingena futhi zikhula ngesivinini eNdiya. Ngakho-ke, ungakwazi yini ukuchaza isikhathi owasichitha kule minyaka engu-20, uhlobo lokubhala owawubhala ngaleso sikhathi, nokuthi kungani—ngiqonde ukuthi, ubulokhu usebenza kule ncwadi, Inkonzo, kule minyaka engu-10 edlule. Pho yini ekubuyisele enganekwaneni?
I-ARUNDHATI INDLELA: Uyazi, ngemva kokubhala UNkulunkulu Wezinto Ezincane, futhi lapho iwina i-Booker—ngikhulume ngalokhu izikhathi eziningi—uyazi, ngokuphazima kweso ngaba nohlobo lokumakethwa njengobuso bale India entsha enenkululeko, neoliberal, okwakuyinto engangingakhululeki ngayo. Futhi-ke, ngo-1998, i- BJP uhulumeni, NDA, iNational Democratic Alliance, i BJP njengeqembu elikhulu, langena futhi lenza uchungechunge lwezivivinyo zenuzi.
Futhi kimi, ngandlela-thile, izwe-lezo zivivinyo, uyazi, zashintsha inkulumo yesizwe, mayelana nalokho okwamukelekayo ukushiwo obala. Niyazi, akukhona ukuthi i—ngiqonde ukuthi, i RSS, okuyiqembu—inhlangano uModi ayingxenye yayo, i-Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, ebilokhu ikholelwa ukuthi i-India kufanele kuthiwe iyisizwe samaHindu, yasungulwa ngempela ngo-1925. Ngakho-ke sibheka okuthile obekukhula ngokungenakuvinjelwa kule ndawo . Ngakho-ke akukhona ukuthi izivivinyo zenuzi ziqale into entsha, kodwa zagxuma-ziqala inkulumo. Bavumela izinto ezishiwo esidlangalaleni ezazingamukelekile ngaphambili. Banikeza lokho uhlobo lokwamukela.
Ngabe sengibhala le ndaba ebizwa ngokuthi “Ukuphela Kokucabanga,” futhi kungazelelwe inkosazana yezinganekwane yakhahlelwa esisekelweni sayo. Kodwa lokho kwangiholela eminyakeni engama-20 yokulandela okwakwenzeka, niyazi, imibhikisho emelene namadamu, i-niyazi, isibonelo, ngabhala indaba enkulu ebizwa ngokuthi “The Greater Common Good” mayelana nombhikisho owawumelene namaNarmada. Futhi, kimi, -
AMY U-GOODMAN: Idamu laseNarmada.
I-ARUNDHATI INDLELA: Idamu laseNarmada, uxolo, amadamu akhiwe kulo mfula iNarmada. Futhi, kimina, lokho kuqonda kwezombusazwe kanye nemfundo engayithola kuleyo nhlangano, ngibona amathambo—amathambo omhlatshelo ale fascism yamaNdiya eyingqayizivele ngempela ezisekelweni zalelo damu, niyazi, ngempela umqondo wokuthi kukhona umphakathi. lokho kunelungelo elingaphezu kwelinye, umqondo wokuthi ungathatha amanzi esigodini somfula, uwafake endaweni emaphakathi edamini bese unquma ukuthi ubani okufanele athole—ubani okufanele athole lawo manzi.
Ngiqonde ukuthi, muva nje, njengoba idamu selakhiwe, njengoba konke okwashiwo yinhlangano elwa namadamu sekufezekile, saba nombukwane ongakholakali: noma imaphi amanzi amancane ayekhona esizibeni, okufanele ngabe asetshenziselwe abalimi baseGujarat phakathi nezinyanga zesomiso, uma kubhekwa lokho idamu elathi lizokwenza, wakhululwa, ngokuxhamazela, usuku-amasonto ambalwa ngaphambi kokhetho lwaseGujarat. Kwani? Ukuze undunankulu agibele indiza yasolwandle njengombukwane wokhetho. Futhi namuhla, lawo manzi aphelile. Kanti lamanzi amancane akhona kulo msele avikelwa ngamaphoyisa kubalimi abawadingayo. Uyazi, lobu fascism. Akuwona nje amakamu okuhlushwa, niyazi?
Ngakho-ke, ngisho, iminyaka engu-20 yokuhamba, yokubona, yokubhala, kodwa zonke lezo zincwadi zazihlale zingenelela ngokuphuthumayo esimweni esasivalwa. Kwakunento eyayiphuthuma kakhulu ngendlela ezazibhalwe ngayo. Kodwa, ngesikhathi esifanayo, kwakukhona lonke lolu hlobo lokuhlangana kimi—ngokwesibonelo, uhambo lwaseKashmir. Angikwazanga ukubhala ngeKashmir. Akekho ngempela ongabhala kalula ngeKashmir ngendaba engelona iqiniso, ngoba okwenzeka lapho akusekelwe nje ukuthi ibuphi ubufakazi ongabuveza, uyazi, ukwesaba okutshala umoya, ukwesaba ukuhlala emsebenzini wamasosha aminyene kakhulu emhlabeni, ingxenye. amasosha ayisigidi, ayinkimbinkimbi—
AMY U-GOODMAN: Okuyinto abantu abaningi lapha abangazi lutho ngayo.
I-ARUNDHATI INDLELA: Akukho lutho. Ngisho, cabanga nje iqiniso lokuthi eminyakeni embalwa edlule, emibili noma emithathu, indlela entsha yokudubula izibhamu ezixukwini iye yaphuphuthekisa ngokuphelele noma ingxenye yabantu abangaphezu kwenkulungwane. Abantu abayinkulungwane, uyazi? Kodwa ngaphansi kwesibhengezo sale ntando yeningi evumelana nezimakethe, akekho ozokhuluma ngayo. Ngaphansi kwesibhengezo sentando yeningi esithenga izikhali ezinkulu eFrance, eMelika, siyaboshelwa. Zonke lezo zimfihlo ezimnyama zishanelwa ngaphansi kukakhaphethi, ngoba sithenga izikhali emazweni aseNtshonalanga. Kanti amazwe aseNtshonalanga ayophila kanjani uma thina izilima singazithengi izikhali?
I-NERMEEN SHAIKH: Nokho, i-Kashmir ingenye yezindawo ezibonakala kakhulu endaweni yakho Inkonzo Yenjabulo Kakhulu. Ingenye yezilungiselelo zencwadi. Manje, uke waveza, njengoba abantu besho, le ncwadi igcwele ipolitiki, okusho ukuthi ngandlela thize inganekwane ihlukile kwezombusazwe noma ukuchema. Ushilo engxoxweni yakamuva ukuthi abantu abaphezulu bangamalungu eqembu futhi banenhlanhla kangangokuthi akudingeki babonakale benjalo. Ngakho-ke, ungakuchaza lokho, kanye nokwamukelwa kwencwadi yakho eNdiya ngaleyo mibandela?
I-ARUNDHATI INDLELA: Hhayi-ke, bheka, uyazi, bengihlala ngikuthola kumangalisa — ngiqonde, UNkulunkulu Wezinto Ezincane kwakuyincwadi yezombangazwe. Ngemva kokuwina uMklomelo we-Booker, abantu baseNdiya ikakhulukazi, kodwa abantu abaningi, ikakhulukazi eKerala, niyazi, babethanda ukucabanga ngakho, ngoba babefuna ukungibiza, kodwa hhayi ezombangazwe zale ncwadi, ngakho-ke ake singakunaki Iqiniso lokuthi imayelana nesigaba sobukhosi esinonya nesidala kakhulu esikhiqizwe yinoma yimuphi umphakathi wesintu, okuwuhlaka. Asingakhulumi ngalokho. Kungaba yincwadi ekhuluma ngezingane, noma kungaba incwadi ebhalwe ngamagama ahlabayo, njalo njalo.
Kepha, kimina, iqiniso liwukuthi ukuze ababhali bezinganekwane bagweme ukubhala nge-caste, ukugwema ukubhala ngeKashmir, kufanele ucabange ukuma kwe-yoga okuyinkimbinkimbi kakhulu, uyazi? Iqiniso liwukuthi, ungabheka emoyeni? Ungakwazi yini ukuphefumula—lona umoya esiwuphefumulayo lapho. Akukhona nje ukwethuka. Umculo. Kuyinkondlo. IKashmir. Kuwuhlaka. Yilokho konke. Uyazi, ngakho-ke angi—anginamahloni nakancane ukusho lokho, kimina, njengombhali, ukuze ngikwazi ukubhala ngothando, ngikwazi ukubhala ngokusondelana, ngomculo, ngezinkondlo kanye nezinkondlo. udlame, ngamandla afanayo, yilo olubalulekile kimi. Kodwa ukuzama ukuhlela lezi zinto ngoba awucabangi ukuthi mhlawumbe imakethe iyakufuna, anginandaba nalokho.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Awu, Arundhati, sitshele isakhiwo sencwadi. Iqala futhi iphele emathuneni. AmaHindu awangcwatshwa emathuneni; ziyashiswa. Ngakho bangamaSulumane. Futhi cishe, empeleni, hhayi ingcosana, kodwa iningi elingenalutho, ngomqondo othile. Kodwa sitshele ngabalingiswa, ukuthi le ncwadi ingavamile kangakanani.
I-ARUNDHATI INDLELA: Hhayi-ke, bheka, Amy, lowo umbuzo ononya: “Ngitshele uhlaka lwencwadi!” Kunzima ukusho, ukuphendula lokho.
Kimina, ngingathini? Ngiyicabanga njengedolobha. Uyazi, itulo liyidolobha, njengedolobha elikhulu lengxenye yami yomhlaba. Inengxenye yomhlaba wakudala. Inabantu abazama ukuyihlela, bese lezo zakhamuzi zingayihlelile. Kuhlala kuzilimaza, itulo. Noma kunjalo, iyazibhala ebusweni boMhlaba, ngokumelene nemvelo, njengoba amadolobha enza futhi njengoba izindaba zenza, uyazi. Kodwa ngangifuna ngempela ukubhala ngomoya, uyazi? Angizange—angiboni le ncwadi njengencwadi ekhuluma ngezindaba, ephathelene nezindaba zezombusazwe. Omunye wabalingiswa abasemqoka, ngoba—akuphathelene nabantu ababencishwe inyumbazana, njengoba usho, nhlobo, uyazi? Inabalingisi bonke—ngandlela thize, i-India—i-India iwumphakathi ohlala kugridi enhle kakhulu. INtshonalanga kuphela ecabanga ngathi njenge-anarchic. Kodwa empeleni sihlala kugridi yensimbi noma enezikhala, lapho wonke umuntu ehlala phakathi kwesigaba sabo, emphakathini wabo, ngaphakathi kohlanga lwabo. Kungaphansi, niyazi, njengokuthi—angazi—amaphesenti amathathu, noma okuthize, wabantu abazoshada ngaphandle komphakathi wabo. Ngakho-ke, abalingiswa abakule ncwadi ngandlela thile bonke banomngcele odlula kubo, umngcele omuhle oshisayo odlula kubo, kungakhathaliseki ukuthi ubulili noma ubuhlanga noma ukuguqulwa kwezenkolo.
Futhi incwadi, niyabo, iqala edolobheni elidala laseDelhi, bese-ke iphuma nje, niyazi, ingene edolobheni elisha, ingene—ngiqonde, ingene eKashmir, njengoba ushilo, kodwa isikhungo semizwa yezwe. Incwadi yile ndawo ebizwa nge-Jantar Mantar, evaliwe manje, kodwa bekuyindawo lapho ababhikishi abavela kulo lonke elaseNdiya babehlangana khona. Futhi yindawo lapho ngachitha khona isikhathi esiningi. Futhi ngobunye ubusuku—ngangichitha ubusuku lapho. Ngisho, bekusendaweni ethakazelisa kakhulu, niyazi? Futhi ngobunye ubusuku lapho ngilapho, kwavela ingane endleleni egandayiwe, ilahliwe. Futhi zonke lezi zinhlangano—iBhopal, iKashmir, iNarmada—konke ukuhlakanipha, zonke ezombangazwe, zethu sonke, sasingazi ukuthi senzeni ngaleyongane elahliwe. Futhi kungenze ngacabanga, uyazi. Futhi-ke, nakuba kungeyona indlela le ncwadi eqala ngayo, leso yisikhungo semizwa. Isigcawu esiseJantar Mantar, isahluko esibizwa ngokuthi “Ukuzalwa KukaJesu,” lapho kuzalwa khona le ngane, ephikisana noKristu, intombazanyana emnyama egoqwe udoti. Futhi indaba—empeleni, kimina, leso sahluko, ifana nokuguqulwa kwebhola ekuqaleni War and Peace, uyazi, lapho bonke abantu abahle bebuthana khona. Leli yibhola likadoti, uyazi? Futhi ukusuka lapho, indaba ikukhipha.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Futhi abanye abalingiswa abakhulu, ngaphandle kwengane, umlingiswa wakho oyinhloko?
I-ARUNDHATI INDLELA: Ngakho-ke, abalingiswa bakhona-kukhona i-Anjum. Uzalwe njengo-Aftab emndenini wamaShia Muslim e-Old Delhi, owazalwa esengumfana, kodwa ngokushesha uthole ukuthi ungowesifazane ngempela ovaleleke emzimbeni wendoda, futhi, eneminyaka engu-16, ushiya ikhaya wayohlala emphakathini hijra, igama lesi-Urdu elisho abantu abashintshayo. Uhlala eKhwabgah, okuyiHouse of Dreams, e-Old Delhi, neqembu labantu bobulili obuhlukahlukene, obuyinkimbinkimbi njenge duniya, okuyindlela ababhekisela ngayo ezweni langaphandle. Duniya, futhi, ngesi-Urdu, kusho umhlaba. Ngakho kukhona ngokwabo kanye nezwe, ngokwehlukana. Futhi u-Anjum uyakhula—ngiqonde ukuthi, uchitha iminyaka yakhe yobusha, futhi aze abe neminyaka engaba ngu-40, lapho.
Enye yezinto ezinhle kakhulu futhi ezigujwa kakhulu hijra waseDelhi, niyazi, indaba yezindaba ehamba kancane, a-bonke ababhalelana bakwamanye amazwe, wonke umuntu uyamfaka enkantolo, ufuna, niyazi, ukwenza lendaba. Futhi-ke empeleni—bese-ke, niyazi, kodwa into ngaye ukuthi akayena—lokho akukona nje kuphela ukuthi ungubani. Akayena kuphela a hijra. UngumShia. Ungowesifazane ofuna ukuba ngumama. Uthatha intombazanyana. Ube esebanjwa esibhicongweni sango-2002 eGujarat, futhi, vele, wabanjwa hhayi ngoba engumuntu. hijra, kodwa ngenxa yokuthi ungumSulumane. Futhi, eqinisweni, uyabaleka, ngoba uyi-a hijra, futhi abantu bacabanga ukuthi kuyishwa ukubulala a hijra.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Futhi lokhu kwenzeka ngempela ngo-2002, isibhicongo.
I-ARUNDHATI INDLELA: Yebo, ukubulawa kwabantu, kwenzeka, futhi ngenkathi uModi engungqongqoshe omkhulu. Khona-ke u-Anjum uyabuya, akakwazi ukuqhubeka nokuphila njengoba ayekwazi, futhi uthuthela emathuneni aseduze, lapho kukhona izihlobo zakhe. Futhi kancane, njengoba eseluleme ekuhlukumezekeni kwakhe, uqala ukwakha indlu yezivakashi lapho.
Bese kuba nomngani wakhe uSaddam Hussein, ongumDalit osemncane naye ophunyule esibhicongweni samaDalits, futhi ngakwesokudla samaHindu. Futhi yena, ngokuthukuthela, unquma ukwenza lokho u-Ambedkar, umholi omkhulu we-Untouchables, akwenzile. Wathi, “Kufanele ulahle ubuHindu.” Ngakho ulahla ubuHindu futhi uba umSulumane futhi uzibiza ngoSaddam Hussein. Futhi ungumlingani wakhe ekuphatheni izivakashi.
Futhi-ke unomunye wabalingiswa ababizwa ngo-Garson Hobart, oyisikhulu sezobunhloli seBrahmanical, ngandlela thize—ingxenye yakhe izwi lombuso, uyazi, oqonda izinto ngokomlando. , onekhono lokulinda, lokubuka, lokucabanga kulokhu kuphana—uyilungu, ake sithi, i-Nehruvian elite, eye yaxoshwa manje yileli phiko elisha lamaHindu. Kodwa uHobart, ngenxa yokuthi lelo igama lomlingiswa amdlalayo emdlalweni wasekolishi, u-Garson Hobart, ungumuntu okhaliphile, niyazi, futhi othile okufanele sonke simelane naye. Akayona inyama elula, nganoma iyiphi indlela.
Bese uba noMusa nomngani wakhe uTilottama. UMusa uyiKashmiri; U-Tilottama, uthando lwakhe—abangobani bobabili—u-Tilottama ungowesifazane ongaziwa ohlala emngceleni wengqondo enengqondo nobuhlanya, niyazi, umuntu wesifazane kakhulu, ongahloniphi futhi ophansi—ophansi ngomqondo wokuthi ungowesifazane othandwayo, kodwa akakwenzi lokho. angazi ukuthi uzokwamukela kanjani ngempela, ngoba uhlala emingceleni yezinto eziningi.
AMY U-GOODMAN: U-Arundhati Roy uchaza inoveli yakhe yakamuva, eyesibili. Ibizwa Inkonzo Yenjabulo Kakhulu. Futhi sizoqhubeka naye emzuzwini.
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AMY U-GOODMAN: “Alukho Uthando Enhliziyweni Yedolobha,” inguqulo yomculi waseNdiya-waseMelika uZeshan B, ecula khona lapha kwethi Intando yeningi Manje! isitudiyo. Ukubona amakhonsathi nenhlolokhono, yiya ku democracynow.org.
Yebo, lokhu kunjalo Intando yeningi Manje! Umbiko Wempi Nokuthula. Ngingu-Amy Goodman, no-Nermeen Shaikh. Isivakashi sethu ngu-Arundhati Roy, umbhali wenoveli entsha, kahle, manje esephepheni, Inkonzo Yenjabulo Kakhulu. U-Arundhati wawina uMklomelo we-Booker ngo-1997 ngencwadi yakhe yokuqala, UNkulunkulu Wezinto Ezincane.
I-NERMEEN SHAIKH: Ngakho-ke, u-Arundhati Roy, siphethe ingxenye yethu yokuqala yengxoxo ngokukhuluma ngencwadi, Inkonzo Yenjabulo Kakhulu. Futhi incwadi iphetha ngokuthi i-Modi, inkomba ye-Modi. Ushilo phambilini ukuthi, nakuba uhlotshaniswa ngokusemthethweni neQembu le-Bharatiya Janata—ngiqonde ukuthi, yindlela akhethwa ngayo—ubudlelwane bakhe bangempela neqembu. RSS. Ngakho-ke, ungachaza ukuthi yini RSS imele futhi kungani ibaluleke kakhulu ukuthi ihambisana kakhulu ne RSS kunange I-PJP?
I-ARUNDHATI INDLELA: Ngakho, i RSS namuhla—i-RSS imele i-Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, okuwuhlobo oluthile lomphakathi wokuzisiza kazwelonke. Kodwa iyinhlangano enamandla kunazo zonke ezweni namuhla. Yasungulwa, njengoba ngishilo, ngawo-1920, futhi ibilokhu ikholelwa ekubhaleni kabusha umthethosisekelo. Kukholelwa obala ukuthi i-India kufanele imenyezelwe njengesizwe samaHindu. Izazi zayo ziye zabiza obala amaSulumane aseNdiya—ziye zathi, niyazi, amaSulumane aseNdiya afana namaJuda aseJalimane.
Manje, ine—kuyinhlangano eyesabekayo. Uyazi, ine-iyasebenza kwezemfundo. Inamaphiko abesifazane, amaphiko emijondolo, amaphiko ahlala ehlathini, uphiko lokushicilela. Iyabhala ngempela indaba yalokho okwenzeka namuhla. Futhi akuyena uModi kuphela, kodwa cishe bonke ongqongqoshe bakhe, kuhlanganise nowayenguNdunankulu uVajpayee, u-Advani. Bonke laba bantu babengamalungu eqembu RSS. Ngakho-ke, noma cha BJP ihlulwe okhethweni noma iwine ukhetho, umsebenzi we-RSS awunakuguqulwa. Uyazi, kuyaqhubeka. Futhi ngakho, the BJP empeleni nje ingalo yepolitiki ye RSS. Ayikho indlela yokuthi BJP ingaba ne-ajenda ezimele. Ihlanganiswe ne- RSS. Ngakho-ke, ingozi namuhla ukuthi ngenxa yobuningi beningi abangena ngalo emandleni, zonke izikhungo manje sezingenwe ngabathile. RSS.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Sizokwenza Ingxenye 2 yale ngxoxo ku-democracynow.org. U-Arundhati Roy, umbhali wenoveli entsha Inkonzo Yenjabulo Kakhulu.
Futhi lokho kuyakwenzela ukusakaza kwethu. O, futhi omunye futhi Intando yeningi Manje! isimemezelo somndeni: Jahan Guzder Turner, wamukelekile emhlabeni. Sihalalisela umdidiyeli wethu othandekayo uDeena Guzder nomyeni wakhe uPeter. Yeka ukuthi kwaba yilungelo elingakanani kimi noNermeen ukuthi sihlanganyele nelungu lethu elisha elithandekayo Intando yeningi Manje! umndeni, uJahan.
I-NERMEEN SHAIKH: Futhi, u-Jahan, okusho ukuthi umhlaba noma indawo yonke, wamukelekile emhlabeni.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Futhi umkhathi. Ngingu-Amy Goodman, no-Nermeen Shaikh.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Njengoba siqhubeka nengxoxo yethu nombhali nesishoshovu u-Arundhati Roy, manje usejoyinwe eChicago nguSanjay Kak, umdidiyeli wefilimu ozinze eNew Delhi. Ifilimu yakhe yakamuva kakhulu Jashn-e-Azadi, noma Indlela Esiyigubha Ngayo Inkululeko. Ungumbhali we Kuze Kube Inkululeko Yami Ifikile: I-Intifada Entsha eKashmir.
Siyakwamukela ukujoyina u-Arundhati kule ngxoxo. Ungakhuluma ngo-Arundhati kuqala, ngesizinda somhlaba, ukuthi kungani ube nentshisekelo kangaka kulolu daba, nokuthi kungani uya e-United States ukuyokhuluma ngalo?
I-ARUNDHATI INDLELA: Cha, kunjalo-kahle, ngicabanga ukuthi uma umuntu ebengachaza isimo ngendlela elula, umzabalazo wokuzibusa eKashmir waqala ngo-1947, ngesikhathi senkululeko yeNdiya kanye nokuhlukaniswa kweNdiya nePakistan. Futhi iKashmir, eyayikade ingumbuso ozimele, yahlukaniswa kakhulu noma kancane ngesikhathi sokuhlukaniswa, ingxenye ithathwe iPakistan kanti enye ingxenye ithathwe iNdiya. Futhi yizwe eline—ngiqonde ukuthi, yizwe elinabantu abaningi abangamaSulumane, kodwa elinombusi wamaHindu, okwakufanele avumelene neNdiya, nakuba kwakufanele kube khona ukuqulwa kwamacala ngemva kuka-1947, okungazange kwenzeke. .
Futhi namuhla iKashmir iyindawo enamasosha aminyene kakhulu emhlabeni. I-India inokuthile okufana nebutho lezokuphepha elingu-700,000 lapho. Futhi ngawo-90, ekuqaleni kwawo-90, ukulwa kwaba—kwaphenduka umzabalazo wezikhali, futhi kusukela ngaleso sikhathi, abantu abacishe babe ngu-68,000 bafa, mhlawumbe abayizi-100,000 bahlukunyezwa, abangu-10,000 banyamalala, niyazi? Ngisho, sonke sikhuluma kakhulu ngeChile, uPinochet. Lezi zinombolo zikhulu kakhulu. Futhi lokhu kumane nje kuwukuphela kwakho, niyazi? Ungazibona yini ngeso lengqondo uhlala endaweni lapho kunamasosha amaningi kangaka, awukwazi—uphuma ngomnyango wakho, uphume, uze emgodleni. Yonke imikhakha yempilo, kungakhathaliseki ukuthi ijabulisa noma ngenye indlela, iphambukiswa ngamasosha.
Futhi isiphenduke into embi kakhulu—ibala elibi kubantu abangathanda ukuba yikho—bazihloniphe. Futhi ngikhuluma ngamaNdiya, niyazi, ngikhuluma ngomuntu onjengami, ukuthi kungenza ngizizwe sengathi kuyinto embi kakhulu ukuhlala ezweni elenza lokhu kubantu futhi ligcine-wonke umuntu athule ngayo. Bambalwa kakhulu abantu eNdiya abangasho okuthile ngalokhu. Ngisho ukuthi, sizwa ngabantu abenqaba ukuya empini ngenxa kanembeza e-Iraq, eVietnam, kodwa eNdiya akukaze kube khona, umuntu owenqaba ukuya empini ngenxa kanembeza. Futhi le nto abayenzayo kubantu imbi kakhulu.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Sanjay Kak, ubhalile Kuze Kube Inkululeko Yami Ifikile: I-Intifada Entsha eKashmir. Kungani kuchazwa ngaleyo ndlela? Futhi yini ocabanga ukuthi izethameli zamazwe ngamazwe zidinga ukuyiqonda manje ngeKashmir?
SANJAY Kak: Uyazi, kusukela ngo-1990, iKashmir ibilokhu ichazwa njengendawo egcwele izingxabano. Futhi ngomqondo othile, lokho kube uhlobo olubusayo lwento ebiqhubeka lapho. Futhi kusukela cishe ngo-2008 lapho kwaba khona uhlobo lokushintsha kwe-paradigm mayelana nokwakwenzeka lapho. Ungaphikisa ngokuthi ibutho elihlomile liphuliwe noma umphakathi wanquma ukuthi umzabalazo wezikhali kwakungeyona yodwa indlela owawungaqhubeka ngayo, kodwa saqala ukuzwa okuthile okwenzeka ngo-2008, lapho, ngemva kwamashumi eminyaka, amakhulu eminyaka futhi. izinkulungwane zabantu zaqala ukuphuma emigwaqweni. Futhi lokhu kwenzeka ngo-2008. Kwenzeka ngo-2009. Futhi 2010 kwaba uhlobo cishe inhlekelele mayelana noshintsho esilubonile emigwaqweni. Yiqiniso, kwakusho ukuthi amabutho ezokuphepha aphuma, futhi izinsizwa ezingaphezu kuka-120 zabulawa emigwaqweni, zihlomile lutho ngaphandle kwamatshe, kodwa kwaba umzuzwana owawuhambisana nokuqhuma ngokubhala ngeKashmir. Futhi kwaba sobala kithi sonke ukuthi uhlobo lwamatshe olujikijelwa emgwaqweni, intifada yomgwaqo, lwaluhambisana ne-intifada yengqondo, niyazi, uhlobo oluthile lokuxova, ukukhululwa.
Futhi le ncwadi, Ize Ifike Inkululeko Yami, empeleni ufuna—hhayi ukukhumbula, kodwa ukudonsela ukunakekela eqinisweni lokuthi okuthile okubaluleke kakhulu kuye kwenzeka eKashmir. Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi ngenkathi ungase ukwazi ukunqanda izinsizwa emgwaqweni, ungase ukwazi ukwandisa isibalo samasosha sisuka ku-600,000 siye ku-800,000, kodwa uma abantu sebefake leyo switch emakhanda abo, uyazi, kanye ne-intifada ingqondo iyasebenza, khona-ke ngicabanga ukuthi yisikhathi esihle kakhulu, ngoba isikhathi esikhulula kakhulu. Futhi le ncwadi ifuna ukumaka leso sikhathi senkululeko.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Okwenzeka eKashmir kuthinta kanjani okwenzeka eNdiya, ePakistan, e-Afghanistan, eSanjay?
SANJAY Kak: Ikhiyelwe ngaphakathi ngokuphelele. Ngisho ukuthi, uma ubungabona nje ukuthi okwenzeka eKashmir kunamthelela muni emzimbeni weriphabhulikhi yaseNdiya, ngicabanga ukuthi kubaluleke kakhulu, okokuqala ngoba kusukela ngo-1947, ngenkathi iNdiya iqala ukuba khona, iKashmir ibilokhu ikhona. uhlobo lwenhliziyo engokomfanekiso, noma ikhanda, empeleni, umqhele lapho ubunikazi baseNdiya buboshwe khona-futhi, yiqiniso, phakathi nendawo ephambene ePakistan. Ngakho-ke uma, kumaNdiya, iKashmir imelela ukunqoba kwenkolo yamaNdiya, lapho isifundazwe esinabantu abaningi abangamaSulumane siba yingxenye yeNdiya, khona-ke, ePakistan, isenzo esifanayo siba isehluleki, ngoba nali iMuslim—izwe elakhiwe njengesiphephelo. indawo yamaSulumane, engakwazi ukubambelela esifundazweni esinamaSulumane amaningi. Ngakho-ke kukhona uhlobo lwe-semiotic, isisindo esindayo kakhulu esinamathiselwe eKashmir, kodwa akuyona into kuphela leyo. Ngicabanga ukuthi, uyazi, kule minyaka engu-25 edlule, sibone ukuthunyelwa kwamasosha okunyantisa kakhulu kanye nemithetho ehlehlayo nengenayo intando yeningi—uMthetho Wamandla Akhethekile Ebutho Lezempi, uMthetho Wokuphepha Komphakathi. Ngakho, ngomqondo othile, ngempela—
AMY U-GOODMAN: Sinemizuzwana emihlanu.
SANJAY Kak: Sekuphelile—uma ufuna ukubuka eKashmir, ungabona ukuphela kwentando yeningi kulokho okwenzeka eKashmir.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Sizokwenza ingxenye yesibili ku-inthanethi ku-democracynow.org. USanjay Kak, umenzi wefilimu, umbhali, Kuze Kube Inkululeko Yami Ifikile: I-Intifada Entsha eKashmir. Futhi umbhali omkhulu, u-Arundhati Roy.
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