Source: Dimokuradiyya Yanzu!
Wace rawa Amurka ta taka wajen samar da yanayi na mamayar da Rasha ta yi wa Ukraine, kuma mene ne za ta dauka domin kawo karshen yakin? Yunkurin da Amurka ta yi a Iraki, wanda bai ga wani tasiri ga gwamnatin Bush ba, duk da keta dokokin jin kai na kasa da kasa, tare da manufofin yakin cacar-baki da kuma fadada gabashin gabashin NATO, shi ne ya tunzura Putin ga Ukraine, in ji Kanar Andrew Bacevich mai ritaya, shugaban kuma wanda ya kafa kungiyar. da Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft. Bacevich ya ce "Masu yanke shawara na Amurka sun yi da sauri, kuma cikin rashin hankali, kuma yanzu muna fuskantar sakamakon."
AMY GOODMAN: wannan shi ne Democracy Now!, Democracynow.org, Rahoton Yaki da Zaman Lafiya. Ni Amy Goodman ne, yayin da muke ci gaba da kallon mamayewar Rasha na Ukraine. Majalisar dattawan Amurka ta amince da kudirin kashe dala tiriliyan 1.5 wanda ya hada da dala biliyan 13.6 na taimakon soji da na tattalin arziki ga Ukraine. Wannan shine sau biyu na ainihin adadin da gwamnatin Biden ta nema. Wannan ya zo a matsayin Amurka da NATO suna zuba makamai a cikin Ukraine don taimakawa wajen tunkarar mamayar Rasha. The New York Times kwanan nan ne aka ruwaito Amurka da kawayenta sun aike da makaman yaki da tankokin yaki guda 17,000 zuwa Ukraine cikin kwanaki shida na baya-bayan nan. The Washington Post Rahotanni sun ce Amurka na shirin yin shiru cikin nutsuwa don marawa 'yan tawayen Ukraine baya da gwamnatin da ke gudun hijira idan Rasha ta yi nasarar kwace Ukraine.
Muna tare da Andrew Bacevich, Shugaba kuma Co-kafa na antiwar tunani tank Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft. Shi Kanar mai ritaya ne, tsohon sojan Vietnam, Farfesa Emeritus na Hulda da Tarihi a Jami'ar Boston kuma marubucin littattafai da dama ciki har da na baya-bayan nan da aka kira. Bayan Afocalypse: Matsayin Amurka a Duniya ya Canza. Abubuwan da ya yi na baya-bayan nan sun haɗa da kanun labarai guda ɗaya Amurka ba za ta iya kawar da kanta daga alhakin mamayewar Putin na Ukraine ba. Farfesa Bacevich, bari mu fara a can. Yi magana game da haɗin gwiwar Amurka-Putin da dalilin da ya sa kuke jin cewa Amurka na da alhakin wani ɓangare na abin da ke faruwa.
ANDREW BACEVICH: Ina tsammanin zan kwatanta shi a matsayin haɗin gwiwar Amurka da Rasha saboda ba lallai ba ne ya iyakance ga Mista Putin. Babban batu a nan ina tsammanin shi ne lokacin da yakin cacar baka ya ƙare, ba shakka, Rasha tana cikin wani matsayi mai girma da rauni kuma Amurka da kawayenta sun zaɓi yin amfani da wannan raunin. Mafi bayyananniyar magana ita ce faɗaɗa gabas NATO. Mu tunatar da kanmu, NATO wani anti-Soviet alliance lokacin da aka halitta a 1949. The fadada na NATO m mayar da shi har zuwa kan iyakokin post-Soviet Rasha. A wancan lokacin, akwai Amirkawa da yawa-George Kennan, jami'in diflomasiyya, zai kasance mai yiwuwa ya fi fice-wanda ya yi gargaɗi game da NATO fadada kamar zai iya haifar mana da matsala a hanya. Mun yi watsi da waɗannan gargaɗin, kuma ina tsammanin muna cikin irin kajin da ke zuwa gida don tayar da halin da ake ciki a nan.
Ni ba mai neman afuwar Putin bane kuma shine babban dalilin wannan bala'in da muke fuskanta, amma Putin ya kasance mai gaskiya a cikin gargadin cewa motsin gabas NATO, kuma musamman yiwuwar shiga Ukraine NATO, wanda ya kasance daga mahangarsa wata muhimmiyar barazana, barazana ga muhimman muradun tsaron Rasha. Mun yi watsi da hakan, kuma ina tsammanin zuwa wani mataki, wannan mummunan yakin da ba dole ba ne sakamakon hakan.
AMY GOODMAN: Ba kai kaɗai ke faɗin haka ba. Mutum daya da ya yi gargadin shekaru da suka wuce game da NATO fadada a Gabashin Turai shine William Burns, darektan na yanzu CIA.
ANDREW BACEVICH: Ee.
AMY GOODMAN: Ya kasance jakadan Amurka a Rasha daga 2005 zuwa 2008. A cikin tarihinsa. Tashar Baya, Burns ya rubuta "yana zaune a ofishin jakadancin a Moscow a tsakiyar shekarun XNUMX, ya zama kamar haka. NATO fadadawa ya kasance da wuri a mafi kyau kuma ba dole ba ne mai tayar da hankali a mafi muni." Kuma a cikin 1995, Burns ya rubuta wata sanarwa yana cewa, "Kiyayya zuwa wuri NATO kusan ana jin faɗaɗa a duk duniya a duk faɗin siyasar cikin gida a nan." Yana magana ne game da Rasha. A cikin wani bayanin Burns ya rubuta, “Shigar da Yukren NATO shine mafi haske na duk redlines ga manyan Rasha (ba kawai Putin ba). A cikin fiye da shekaru biyu da rabi na tattaunawa tare da manyan 'yan wasan Rasha, daga masu yin tururuwa a cikin duhun Kremlin zuwa masu sukar masu sassaucin ra'ayi na Putin, har yanzu ban sami wanda ke kallon Ukraine ba. NATO kamar wani abu banda kalubale kai tsaye ga muradun Rasha." Bugu da ƙari, waɗannan kalmomin daraktan Hukumar Leken Asiri ta Tsakiya na yanzu, William Burns. Andrew Bacevich?
ANDREW BACEVICH: Wani zai ce idan aka yi la’akari da irin wannan gargaɗin daga babban jami’i, babban jami’i da ake mutunta shi, me ya sa muka ci gaba da yinsa? Ina tsammanin amsoshi biyu ne ga wannan tambayar. Na ɗaya shine saboda Turawa sun yi matuƙar son shiga NATO kuma su shiga EU, suna amfani da damarsu don samun dimokuradiyya, samun sassaucin ra'ayi, samun damar samun wadata. Kakanni na uba sun fito daga Lithuania. Lithuania ta kasance a cikin masu tsaron kasashen da ke son shiga EU da NATO. Ba na zargin mutanen Lithuania don wannan buri, kuma ta fuskoki da yawa, shiga NATO kuma EU ta biya ragi ga Lithuania. Wannan ya ce, an yi shi ne ta fuskar adawa da Rashawa kuma yanzu muna biyan sakamakon waɗannan ƙin yarda.
Dayan dalilin da ya sa muka yi shi, ba shakka, ban da abin da nake tsammanin gaske irin na Russophobia ne mai zurfi wanda ya mamaye yawancin membobin Amurkawa, shine imani a wancan lokacin, wato a baya a cikin 1990s, imani cewa Rasha ba za ta iya yin komai game da shi ba. Rasha ta kasance mai rauni, Rasha ba ta da tsari, sabili da haka ya zama kamar wata shawara ce mai ƙarancin haɗari don amfani da raunin Rasha don ci gaba da manufofinmu da kuma ci gaba da manufofin wasu ƙasashen Turai, waɗanda yawancinsu sun kasance ɓangare na Tarayyar Soviet ko kuma. sun kasance tauraron dan adam na Soviet kuma suna ganin ƙarshen yakin cacar baka a matsayin damar su don samun 'yanci da wadata. Ba na zargin Lithuania, ban zargi Poles ba amma ina tsammanin cewa masu yanke shawara na Amurka sun yi aiki da gaggawa kuma da gangan kuma a yanzu muna fuskantar sakamakon.
AMY GOODMAN: Bari mu yi magana game da wannan mummunan mamayewar da Putin na Ukraine ya yi da kuma abin da Putin ke nema. Bai sami kulawa sosai a Amurka ba kamar sauran wurare, amma buƙatun da aka rubuta a cikin takaddun da aka gabatar wa Amurka-Ukraine ta dakatar da aikin soja, Ukraine ta canza tsarin mulkinta don ba da tsaka tsaki, amincewa da Crimea a matsayin yankin Rasha, yarda da Crimea- idan za ku iya magana game da waɗannan buƙatun da kuma rashin tausayi na abin da Putin ke yi a yanzu?
ANDREW BACEVICH: Bari mu fara da zalunci. Dole ne in yarda cewa a gare ni, abin da ya fi daukar hankali game da yakin kamar yadda ya samo asali shi ne danyen injin yakin Rasha. Sun nuna kansu a matsayin sojojin zamani. Sojojin zamani sun san yadda ake amfani da karfi, don yin amfani da tashin hankali ta hanyar sarrafawa da manufa. Eh, ana kashe mutane, ana lalata gine-gine amma ba tashin hankali ba ne. Wannan ina tsammanin ya taƙaita tunanin yaƙin zamani. Mun yi imani, kuma ina tsammanin Rashawa da kansu sun yarda, cewa sun rungumi hanyoyin yakin zamani. Sai ya zama ba su yi ba. Don haka duk abin da ya faru ya zuwa yanzu a cikin makonni biyun farko ya nuna cewa ba za su iya yin amfani da tashin hankali ta hanya mai ma'ana da manufa ta siyasa ba, wanda ya kai mu a halin yanzu da ya nuna cewa abin da muke shiga wani nau'i ne na siyasa. kewaye yaki, inda ake amfani da tashin hankali ta hanyar bazuwar don azabtarwa, don ta'addanci, ina tsammanin, a cikin kwamandojin Rasha, tare da wasu bege mara kyau cewa tashin hankalin da aka yi amfani da shi ta wannan hanya zai kai ga Ukrainians su daina, rushewa.
Ya rage a gani ko hakan zai faru, amma da alama wannan shine tunanin da ake yi a yanzu tsakanin Rashawa na yadda suke tunanin za su cimma burinsu. Ko sun yi nasara ko ba su yi nasara ba, abin da muke gani, ina tsammanin, matakan tashin hankali sun fi wanda ake tsammani, yiwuwar mutuwar farar hula da halaka a kan wani babban sikelin, kuma ba maras muhimmanci ba, a kalla daga ra'ayi na Rasha, mai girma. Rikicin Rasha. Kafofin yada labaran sun ce Rashawa sun riga sun yi hasarar wani wuri a cikin jerin sojojin Rasha 3,000 zuwa 4,000 da aka kashe a wani mataki, a ganina, abin ban mamaki ne kuma wata sanarwa ce mai karfi ta yadda Rashawa suka yi kuskuren yin amfani da karfin soja na kansu don haka suka shiga cikin wannan. Morass inda ba na tunanin wani a bangaren Rasha, ko Putin ko Janar dinsa, yana da cikakken hoto na yadda za su fita daga cikin rudanin da suka haifar.
AMY GOODMAN: Suna kira ga Ukraine - magana game da abin da ake nufi da kasancewa tsaka tsaki, da kuma amincewa da Crimea da jihohi masu zaman kansu, yankin Donbas. Amma na kuma so in faɗi Zelensky a nan na minti ɗaya, idan za mu iya ganin wani motsi a cikin waɗannan bangarorin biyu lokacin da za a tsagaita wuta. Ya yi wannan magana mai matukar muhimmanci ABC. Ya ce: “Game da shi NATO, Na huce game da wannan tambaya tuntuni bayan mun fahimci hakan NATO bai shirya karbar Ukraine ba." Yi magana game da abin da wannan ke nufi.
ANDREW BACEVICH: Yana da matukar muni mutane ba za su iya faɗin haka da babbar murya ba kafin a fara yaƙin.
AMY GOODMAN: Shi ne Zelensky da kansa, shugaban Ukraine.
ANDREW BACEVICH: Ee, amma da Zelensky ya ce, in Amurkawa sun ce, sun NATO ya ce da babbar murya, kafin a fara yakin cewa, "Dukkanmu mun fahimci cewa Ukraine ba za ta shiga ba. NATO kowane lokaci nan ba da jimawa ba, "idan muna son sanya hakan a rubuce, to zan yi gardama cewa aƙalla zai yiwu, ba tabbas ba, mai yiwuwa yana yiwuwa a hana Putin ɗaukar matakin da ya zaɓa. Bugu da kari, ya zabi kwas. Shi ne mai yin hakan. Shi ne mai laifi. Amma duk da haka, Ina ganin mafi hikima handling na NATO Batu na iya baiwa Putin wata hanya ta gujewa daukar munanan matakan da ya kare.
AMY GOODMAN: Zelensky ya kuma ce - "Ina magana ne game da tabbacin tsaro," in ji shi. Ya ci gaba da cewa, "Ina tsammanin abubuwan da suka shafi yankunan da aka mamaye na wucin gadi da kuma jumhuriyar da ba kowa ba ne ya amince da su sai Rasha, wadannan jumhuriyar jabu, amma za mu iya tattaunawa da samun daidaito kan yadda wadannan yankuna za su ci gaba." Hakan ya biyo bayan ministan harkokin wajen Ukraine Kuleba yana mai cewa, “Idan za mu iya cimma matsaya inda za a iya ba wa Ukraine irin wannan tsari na garantin kamar yadda Yarjejeniya Ta Arewa ta tanada ga Ukraine daga mambobin dindindin na kwamitin sulhu na Majalisar Dinkin Duniya, ciki har da Rasha, da kuma Rasha. kamar yadda makwabtan Ukraine suka yi, wannan abu ne da a shirye muke mu tattauna." Muna ganin fa'idar yuwuwar yarjejeniya ko tsagaita wuta a nan.
ANDREW BACEVICH: A gare ni, abin da kuka ambata yana da ƙarfin zuciya, wayewa, musamman ganin cewa Ukraine ta kasance abin da aka yi wa wannan duka. Ina tsammanin tambayar ita ce a bangaren Rasha, shin akwai alamun wannan yarda na sasantawa? Kuma a nan ne - ba cewa na san wani abu game da tattaunawar da ke faruwa a bayan fage ba, amma ya bayyana cewa Rasha ba ta son neman sulhu. A hakikanin gaskiya, idan Putin ya saurari duk wani mai ba da shawara ko yaya, ya kamata masu ba da shawara su roƙe shi ya nemo hanyar da za a yanke yarjejeniya, saboda tsawon lokacin da wannan yakin ya ci gaba, mafi girman cutar da wannan yakin zai yi wa Rasha da kuma mutanen Rasha. Bugu da ƙari, ba aikina ba ne in damu da Rasha, amma a gare ni idan Putin ya damu da komai game da jin dadin al'ummarsa, to yana bukatar ya yi aiki tuƙuru don nemo hanyar da zai bijire daga tsaunin da ke faruwa. ya yi ta yawo.
AMY GOODMAN: A ƙarshe, Andrew Bacevich, idan za ku iya bayyana hujjar da kuka yi a cikin yanki, kanun labarai Yunkurin mamayar Ukraine ba komai ba ne idan aka kwatanta da Iraki. Kai Kanar mai ritaya ne. Kai tsohon soja ne na Yaƙin Vietnam. Kun rasa danku a Iraki. Bayyana hujjar ku.
ANDREW BACEVICH: Ba don nan take ba zan so in rage ta'addancin da ke faruwa a Ukraine a yau da kuma mace-mace da raunukan da aka yi wa wadanda ba 'yan tawaye ba. Amma bari mu fuskanta, lambobin ba su da yawa idan aka kwatanta da adadin mutanen da suka mutu, suka rasa matsugunansu, suka jikkata sakamakon yakin Amurka a Iraki da Afghanistan. Dangane da Kuɗin Kuɗin Yaƙi na Jami'ar Brown, jimillar adadin yana kusa da mutuwar 900,000 sakamakon mamayar da muka yi wa Afghanistan da mamayewarmu na Iraki. Yanzu na fahimci cewa Amurkawa ba sa son yin magana game da hakan, ba sa son tunawa da hakan, tsarin siyasa yana son ci gaba daga wannan. Amma ina tsammanin yanayin halin kirki game da yakin yanzu, zuwa yakin Ukraine, wanda ya kamata ya sa mu kasance masu tawali'u kadan, mu yi la'akari da nuna yatsa ga wasu mutane.
AMY GOODMAN: A ƙarshe, muna da daƙiƙa 30 kawai, amma martani ga mamayar da Rasha ta yi wa Ukraine yana da ban mamaki. Ba ku sami martanin gwamnati kawai ba. Tabbas, Putin ya karfafa NATO fiye da kowa NATO mafi girman tunanin mai fafutuka. Amsar kamfanoni, duk waɗannan kamfanoni suna ja. Tasirin wannan duka?
ANDREW BACEVICH: Ya rage a gani, amma ina ganin ainihin batun ku daidai ne. Mummunan martanin da Putin ya haifar a duniya, ba a ko'ina ba amma mafi yawan wurare a duniya, ya kasance mai ban mamaki da ban sha'awa. Amma bari mu gani, ina tsammanin ya rage don ganin menene tasirin manufofin zai kasance.
AMY GOODMAN: Muna gode muku da yawa don kasancewa tare da mu, Andrew Bacevich, Kanar mai ritaya, tsohon sojan Vietnam, Shugaban kasa kuma wanda ya kafa cibiyar tunani ta antiwar Quincy Institute for Responable Statecraft. Littafinsa na baya-bayan nan shine Bayan Afocalypse.
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