Noam Chomsky, isazi sezilimi nesazi sefilosofi esaziwayo emhlabeni, wayengummeli wezwi le-East Timor (manje eyi-Timor Leste) eyayiphethwe ngaphambili futhi usaqhubeka nokuba umgqugquzeli womzabalazo wasePapua wokuzibusa. Usanda kukhuluma nomnikeli we-Jakarta Post Prodita Sabarini ehhovisi lakhe e-Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) eCambridge, e-US, mayelana nomthelela wenqubomgomo yezangaphandle yase-US e-Indonesia nokuthi amazwe aseNingizimu-mpumalanga ye-Asia kufanele azimele kanjani.
Umbuzo: Ucabanga ukuthi yiziphi izici eziyinhloko ezenza abantu bangajeziswa emacaleni okuhlukunyezwa afana nokubulawa kwamakhomanisi ngo-1965, ubugebengu bempi e-East Timor nokuqhubeka nokuphulwa kwamalungelo abantu ePapua?
Impendulo: Kunesizathu esilula kakhulu salokho. I-US yasekela konke, bonke. I-US yayijabule ngo-1965. Eqinisweni, ukusekelwa kwakumangalisa kangangokuthi kwakusesidlangalaleni. I-New York Times namanye amaphephandaba ayejabule ngakho. Abazange bakucindeze. Bachaza lesi sibhicongo njengesimangalisayo. Ngokufanayo eBrithani. Ngokufanayo e-Australia.
Okwenzeka e-East Timor kwakungenxa yokuthi i-US kanye nabalingani bayo bayisekela iminyaka engu-25. I-West Papua iyafana. Inqobo nje uma i-US ngokuyinhloko kanye nabalingani bayo kanye - amandla aseNtshonalanga - besekela ubudlova, benziwa ngaphandle kokujeziswa, njengobubi babo. Ngisho ukuthi, iMpi YaseVietnam kwaba isihluku esibi kunazo zonke esikhathini sangemva kweMpi Yezwe II kodwa akekho [owatholakala] enecala ngakho.
Ukhetho lwase-Indonesia seluseduze. Ubona kanjani ushintsho olungase lube khona kusukela esifisweni senkululeko eyengeziwe yezepolitiki ukuya ekubuyeleni emibusweni yakudala e-Indonesia?
Ngokufanayo njengakuyo yonke indawo, ukunqoba okunamandla. Ngisho ukuketulwa kobushiqela e-Indonesia kwakubalulekile. Ingxenye yesizathu [sokuketulwa] kwakuwukuthi uSoeharto akazange azifeze izindima ezazifunwa yi-IMF [I-International Monetary Fund] kanye ne-US. Futhi empeleni, uMadeline Albright, owayengunobhala wombuso [ngaleso sikhathi] wathi i-US yayinganelisekile ngokwenziwa yi-Indonesia futhi kufanele icabange ngoshintsho lwangempela. Cishe amahora amane kamuva, uSoeharto wesula. Angazi noma bekukhona yini ukuxhumana okuyimbangela kodwa bekusikisela kakhulu. Ngamandla amakhulu anqumayo. Ikakhulukazi, i-US eminyakeni yamuva inquma ukuthi kwenzekani.
Yini izakhamuzi ezingayenza ukuze ziqondise lapho izwe lazo liphokophele khona, uma kubhekwa la mabutho angaphandle?
Awu akulona ithemba. Eqinisweni zikhona izinguquko. Abashayayo. Thatha i-Latin America. Kusukela ekuqaleni, sekuyiminyaka engu-500 iLatin America ingaphansi kombuso waseNtshonalanga. Kodwa manje, iNingizimu Melika isikhululeke kakhulu. Eminyakeni eyi-10 nje edlule, izinguquko zinkulu kakhulu.
Lapho kuqubuka ihlazo lobunhloli, iBrazil yaba yimbangi ekhuluma kakhulu kunabo bonke. Futhi ngokuvamile, iLatin America ibone ushintsho olukhulu. Bazikhulule kakhulu, hhayi ngokuphelele, kodwa ikakhulukazi ekulawuleni kombuso.
Kusanda kwenziwa ucwaningo lokuhumusha ukuthi yiliphi izwe elasebenzisana nalo: lonke elaseYurophu - eSweden, eFrance, eNgilandi, e-Ireland - eCanada naseMpumalanga Ephakathi, ngoba kulapho abathumela khona ukuyohlushwa; futhi i-Asia yayisebenzisana kakhulu.
Esinye isifunda senqaba ukubambisana: I-Latin America. Futhi uma ucabanga, iLatin America esikhathini esingeside esidlule yayiyigceke nje, babenza noma yini ababeyitshelwa. Lokho kuwushintsho olumangalisayo. Ngicabanga ukuthi lokho kufanele kube uhlobo lwemodeli yalokho okungazuzwa.
Ngakho akulona ithemba. I-Latin America yayiyindawo yokugcina umuntu ayengayilindela ukuthola ukuzimela kwangempela, uma kubhekwa umlando wayo, futhi manje mhlawumbe indawo ezimele kakhulu emhlabeni.
Ucabanga ukuthi i-Indonesia kufanele ibheke okwenzeka eLatin America?
Awukwazi ukuthwala imodeli. I-Latin America ayinazo izinkinga zokuphepha. Ngaphandle kwe-US akukho usongo lwangempela eLatin America. I-Indonesia iyakwenza. IShayina ikhona. Wonke amazwe aseNingizimu-mpumalanga ye-Asia kufanele akhathazeke ngamandla aseShayina.
Ucabangani ngendima ye-ASEAN mayelana nokumelana namandla e-China?
Umuzwa wami ukuthi kube nemizamo yokuthuthela ohlelweni oluzimele, olungewona olwamaShayina ase-Asia. Njenge-Asian Development Bank isibonelo. Iningi livinjwe yi-US esikhathini esedlule.
Kube nomzamo osuselwe eJapan wokwakha uhlobo lweBhange Lokuthuthukiswa Kwase-Asia, kodwa i-US yalinciphisa. Bafuna iBhange Lomhlaba, eliphethwe yi-US, lisingathe. Kodwa lezo zinto zingenziwa futhi kufanele zenziwe ngendlela engeyona ingxenye yombimbi olumelene neChina. Angicabangi ukuthi akunakwenzeka ukuthi iNingizimu-mpumalanga ne-East Asia ibe uhlobo oluthile lweqembu elizimele ezindabeni zomhlaba, ezihlukene neChina, ezihlukene ne-United States.
Abakwenzi manje. Baba yingxenye yesistimu yase-US kodwa lokho akulungile kunoma ubani. Lokho kungaholela ezingxabanweni ezinkulu.
I-US manje iqinisa ubudlelwano bayo ne-Asia.
Pivot ukuya e-Asia. Hhayi-ke, ngeshwa kwenziwa ngendlela esongela ngempela iChina. Ngisho, iChina ayiwona uhulumeni omuhle. Ngeke baphathe kahle abantu, kodwa banezinkinga zabo. Zizungezwe futhi ziqukethe.
Bheka izingxabano phakathi kwe-US ne-China manje. Izingxabano ikakhulukazi phezu kolwandle eduze nogu lwaseChina. I-US ifuna ukuba namalungelo amahhala okuthumela imikhumbi yezempi kulawo manzi futhi iChina ifuna ukulawula lawo manzi. Ngakho lokho kungukubhekana.
Akukho ukubhekana ngeziqu zamehlo phezu kweCaribbean noma phezu kwamanzi eduze kwaseCalifornia. Lokho bekungeke kucatshangwe. Lokho kukutshela ngebhalansi yamandla.
I-China izungezwe. Kukhona izisekelo zamasosha ezivela eJapan, South Korea, Australia. Lezi izisekelo ezinobutha futhi zizungeza iChina nje. Eqinisweni lokho kungesinye sezizathu ezenza iChina ithuthele e-Asia Emaphakathi lapho ingenayo le migoqo.
Uma i-East Asia kanye neNingizimu-mpumalanga ye-Asia ifinyelela ekuzimeleni okwengeziwe ezindabeni zomhlaba, kufanele baqaphele bangabi yingxenye nje yempi yezempi ezungeze iChina, bayivimbele ekusebenziseni amalungelo asemthethweni okufinyelela mahhala olwandle [imithombo yayo]. ] endaweni.
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Ngingaba nentshisekelo yokuthola ucwaningo lwakamuva lwenguqulo okukhulunywe ngayo kulesi sihloko. Ingabe ukhona osaziyo isihloko, umshicileli noma ukuthi lesi sifundo singatholakala kuphi?
Ngibona kakhulu.
Yebo kubizwa ngeGlobalizing Torture yi-Open Society Foundations. Ungayithola ku-inthanethi.
Ngiyabonga kakhulu ngosizo lwakho.