Isazi sefilosofi uSrecko Horvat ixoxa ngezifundo zomlando esingazifunda emzabalazweni wabashokobezi wokulwa nobufascist owaqhutshwa ama-Partisan eYugoslavia phakathi neMpi Yezwe II. U-Horvat uphinde akhulume ngokudlondlobala kwakamuva kwamabutho ezombusazwe asohlangothini lwesokudla eYurophu nokuthi lokho kuthambekela kanye necala likaJulian Assange lisho ukuthini ngekusasa lentando yeningi.
Sisakaze ingxenye yale ngxoxo ku-Intercepted. Okulandelayo umsindo nokulotshiwe kwayo yonke ingxoxo. I-Intercepted iyama ehlobo futhi izobuya neziqephu ezintsha ngoSepthemba 2019.
UJeremy Scahill: Lokhu Kunqanyuliwe.
[Ingxoxo yomculo.]
JS: NginguJeremy Scahill oza kuwe ngivela emahhovisi e-The Intercept e-New York City futhi lesi isiqephu sebhonasi esikhethekile se-Intercepted.
UDonald Trump ukhuthaze uhlobo olusha lomfelandawonye emhlabeni, umfelandawonye wama-fascists, ama-authoitarians, omashiqela. Kuyamangaza ukuqhathanisa le mfelandawonye yembulunga yonke efufusayo ye-tsotsi nenhlangano eyakhiwe ngemvithi yeMpi Yezwe II. Bekwaziwa ngokuthi i-Non-Aligned Movement. UMarshal Josip Broz Tito waseYugoslavia kanye noNdunankulu waseNdiya uNehru kanye noNasser waseGibhithe bakha umfelandawonye wezizwe ezazivumelene ukuthi zingazibeki ngaphansi kwemibono noma ukulawulwa kwemibuso emibili emikhulu esafufusa emhlabeni ngaleso sikhathi: i-United States. kanye neSoviet Union. Ngo-1961, eBelgrade, inhlangano yasungulwa ngokusemthethweni futhi yayihlanganisa amazwe amaningi ase-Asia nase-Afrika kanye namazwe aseLatin America namanye aseningizimu yomhlaba.
Phakathi kwabantu abavelele ekudalweni kwale nhlangano kwakunguTito waseYugoslavia. Phakathi neMpi Yezwe II, wahola umzabalazo wama-guerilla ngokumelene ne-fascism ngaphansi kwefulegi lama-Partisan. Isiqubulo sabo esithi โUkufa kubuFascist. Abantu abakhululekile.โ Ama-Partisan avela ngaphesheya kwe-Balkan futhi anqoba ngempumelelo kokubili ama-fascists ase-Italy namaNazi. Lo mzabalazo wagcina uholele ekuhlanganisweni kwezindawo eziyisithupha ngaphansi kwefulegi laseYugoslavia. Njengomongameli waleli zwe elisha, uTito kwadingeka enze ukulingana phakathi kweSoviet Union eyayicasulwe ukuthi iYugoslavia ayivumanga ukubekwa ngemva kwe-Iron Curtain kanye ne-United States eyaya ngokuya ibusa embonweni wayo wembulunga yonke.
UMarshal Tito wayedume ngokumela uStalin kanye noWinston Churchill kanye ne-United States. Futhi izwe alakha laliwukuhlola okumangalisayo kwezinye izindlela zokuhlela umphakathi. I-Yugoslavia yamukele ukubaluleka kwabasebenzi empilweni yomphakathi futhi yasebenzisa izimboni eziphethwe umphakathi. Yayigcizelela ubunye besizwe nokuhlonipha ukuhlukahluka kwabantu bakhona kanye nezwe.
Ukuthi i-Yugoslavia yachotshozwa ngeminyaka yawo-1990s, empini yombango eyabulala ngesihluku lapho abashisekeli bobuzwe ngokwedlulele bahlanganyela ekubuyekezweni komlando kanye nokukhuthaza imikhakha yamandla e-ethnocentric. Umholi waseSerbia uSlobodan Miloลกevic kanye noCroat Franjo Tudjman bobabili benza imikhankaso ebulalayo yokuhlanzwa kohlanga nokuxoshwa kwabantu ezindaweni zabo. Iningi lokubulala lenzeka eRiphabhulikhi yezizwe eziningi yaseBosnia eyayinabantu abaningi bamaSulumane eYugoslavia.
Kuningi esingakufunda emzabalazweni wama-Partisan, umphakathi ababefuna ukuwakha kanye nesiphetho esishaqisayo sendaba yaseYugoslavia. Lezi zifundo zithinta kakhulu esikhathini sethu samanje emlandweni.
Ukujoyina nami manje ukukhuluma ngakho konke lokhu, isazi sefilosofi nombhali uSrecko Horvat. Ungumbhali wencwadi ethi "Ifunani IYurophu?: Inyunyana Nokunganeliseki kwayo" - ayibhala noSlavoj ลฝiลพek - "Siyakwamukela Ogwadule Lwe-Post-Socialism," kanye nethi "Radicality of Love." Ngo-Yanis Varoufakis, ungomunye wabasunguli beDemocracy in Europe Movement. Incwadi yakhe yakamuva ithi โPoetry From the Future: Why A Global Liberation Movement is Our Civilizationโs Last Chance.โ
U-Srecko Horvat wamukelekile kulesi siqephu sebhonasi se-Intercepted.
Srecko Horvat: Ngiyabonga ngokuba nami lapha.
JS: Ngakho-ke, ngifuna ukukubuza kuqala, ngomqondo wesithombe esikhulu kakhulu, uyazi, thina e-United States, vele, besilandela ukukhuphuka kukaDonald Trump. Futhi ngaso sonke isikhathi lapho ebhala ama-tweets, noma ethimula, noma yini, kuba indaba enkulu yezindaba, kodwa eYurophu kube khona uhlobo lokunyakaza okuhambisanayo okuye kwakhuphuka amandla noma okusongela ukuthatha amandla okubonakala sengathi ukwabelana okuningi okufanayo UDonald Trump nombono wakhe womhlaba. Kubantu nje abangakulandeli eduze obekwenzeka e-Europe ngohlobo lokwenyuka kabusha kokunyakaza okuqinile kwesokudla noma kwe-neo-fascistic?
SH: Hhayi-ke, ngizoqale ngisho ukuthi lokho esingakufakaza eYurophu namuhla ukuthi akukhona nje ukuthi sinokuphakama kophiko oluqinile, noma njengoba ubizile, ukunyakaza kwama-fascist kanye nabaholi be-populists asebevele bephethe njengoMatteo. Ngokwesibonelo, u-Salvini e-Italy, ongavumeli ababaleki ukuthi bahambe ngomkhumbi baye emachwebeni ase-Italy, noma u-Viktor Orbรกn ophethe e-Hungary. Uyazi, lo odume ngokuthi kuphelile ngentando yeningi nokuthi siphila esikhathini esibizwa nge-โi-liberal democracy.โ Futhi-ke vele unabaholi abahlukene abaphiko lwesokudla njengehlazo lakamuva e-Austria nge-Strache okusho ukuthi i-Europe iguqukela ngempela kulolu phiko lwesokudla, hhayi nje imibono, kodwa iqiniso.
Kodwa njengoba ukhulume ngoDonald Trump nokuthi bafana noTrump, ngingasho yebo, bafana noTrump ngisho noma uthatha isibonelo, umsebenzi ka-Umberto Eco, umlobi odumile wase-Italy, kodwa futhi, isazi semiotiki nepolitiki esithakazelisa kakhulu. ungqondongqondo obhale umbhalo omfushane kakhulu obizwa ngokuthi โUr-Fascismโ lapho esho khona izici ezimbalwa zobufascism futhi enye yazo ukwesaba abantu abangabazi. Enye i-misogyny, bese unezinye izici azibeka njengoba wazi, i-fascism yasekuqaleni. Futhi uma uthatha lezi zici njengesibonelo, bese uzisebenzisa kuTrump, eSalvini, eBolsonaro, kwabanye abaholi emhlabeni wonke, uzobona ukuthi isimo sangempela namuhla sifana nalolu hlobo lwe-Ur-Fascism.
Kepha okubalulekile ukukusho, ngoba njengamanje, uTrump use-U.K., uvakashele e-U.K. u-Angela Merkel njengoba wazi ukuthi wethule inkulumo eHarvard muva nje. Futhi yikuphi ukuxhumana phakathi kwalokhu? Ngicabanga ukuthi abakhululekile ngokuvamile benzani, lolu hlobo lwencazelo engenangqondo yokukhuphuka kwe-populist ye-right-wing, ukuthi bacishe bakwethule sengathi umbono we-right-wing empeleni uwile esibhakabhakeni. Kepha uMerkel eHarvard, mhlawumbe ubonile ukuthi ngabe abezindaba benkululeko babebhala kanjani ngakho: "O, ekugcineni umholi waseYurophu ozofundisa uTrump, uyazi, ukuthi kufanele sibhidlize izindonga nokunye." Kodwa uyazi ukuthi u-Angela Merkel wayekuphi emasontweni ambalwa edlule?
Wavakashela eCroatia izwe engangivela kulo, elaliyingxenye yeYugoslavia. Futhi wavakashela eCroatia ngaphambi nje kokhetho lwaseYurophu. Futhi ngaphambi kokhetho lwaseYurophu, wabamba inkulumo enqabayo, lapho ayekhuluma ngokwenqaba ubuzwe. Futhi wabamba inkulumo embuthanweni wezepolitiki weqembu laseCroatia, elijule kakhulu ekubuyekezweni komlando kanye nezinkinga ezithile emngceleni wababaleki nokunye. Futhi ngenkathi ekhuluma ngokwenqaba ubuzwe ngokusekela ubuzwe ngokweqiniso.
Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi lena inkinga, ngisho nalapho u-Angela Merkel ekhuluma eHarvard, ukuthi kufanele senqabe ubuzwe. Akwenzile nalokho isikhungo sezepolitiki esakwenza eYurophu eminyakeni edlule ukuthi empeleni badale izilo, uyazi. Babedala inhlabathi evundile ukuze kudalwe uSalvini, u-Orbรกn, uSebastian Kurz. Ngayiphi indlela? Ngokubeka i-austerity, isibonelo, ukujula okusha emaphethelweni e-European Union. Abalaleli bakho cishe basasikhumbula isibonelo saseGreece kanye nenhlolovo ye-Oxi ka-2015. Futhi kukhona ukufana ne-United States futhi. UDonald Trump akazange awe esibhakabhakeni. Ngicabanga ukuthi isigaba senkululeko e-US kufanele sizibuze umbuzo onzima kakhulu: Uvelaphi ngempela uDonald Trump?
JS: Yebo, ukhuluma ngo-Angela Merkel, iShansela laseJalimane, ubesembozweni ye-Time Magazine e-U.S., abantu bamqhathanise lapha e-U.S. no-Hillary Clinton ukuthi ungumuntu omdala onomthwalo wemfanelo emhlabeni. Futhi njengoba usho, uyena ozosukuma noma akhiphe izinyathelo zokulungisa uDonald Trump.
Kodwa ngifuna ukubuyela kuwe ngikhuluma ngokuvakashela kwakhe eCroatia. I-Srecko, enye yezinto engiye ngazibona eminyakeni embalwa edlule, futhi ngiye ngenza okuningi kokuhamba endaweni eyayiyiYugoslavia, kuhlanganise neCroatia, ukuthi ngiye ngaqaphela ukuthi kube nalokhu kuthutha kusukela eYugoslav Civil. Impiโimpi yokuhlakazeka yaseYugoslaviaโukudiliza zonke lezi zikhumbuzo ezimelene nobufascist kulo lonke izwe laseCroatia.
Futhi seziqala ukushintshwa ngamatshe esikhumbuzo okuhloswe ngawo ukuhlonipha izisulu zobuKhomanisi. Futhi bavame ukuba nohlobo oluthile lwezinkolelo zebhayibheli lobuKristu kubo, kodwa futhi baqhumisa amagama abantu abalwa futhi bafa ukuze baxoshe noma ngabe i-fascist yase-Italy, noma amaNazi avela eJalimane. Futhi kukhona lokhu kubuyekezwa komlando okukhulu okwenzekayo manje eCroatia. Futhi singakhuluma ngamanye amazwe angaphambili aseYugoslavia. Kodwa njengoba ungowase-Croatia, ngifuna nje ukukubuza mayelana nalokhu kusula umlando bese ngethula inguqulo entsha yomlando enganembile ngendlela yamatshe esikhumbuzo athatha indawo yalawo omzabalazo wokulwa nobufascist.
SH: Umbuzo omuhle kakhulu, futhi ngiyajabula ukuthi uwubuzile. Futhi ngiyazi ukuthi uhambe kakhulu ngeYugoslavia yangaphambili ngisho nangesikhathi sempi, futhi abantu ngokuvamile abaqondi ngakolunye uhlangothi, ukubaluleka kokulandelana komlando waseYugoslavia kanye nokuhlangenwe nakho kobusoshiyali bangempela obukhona. Ngisho noJeremy Hunt, unobhala wezangaphandle wase-U.K. ngenkathi evakashele iSlovenia - eyayingelinye lamaRiphabhulikhi aseYugoslavia - esithangamini sabezindaba phambi kwabanye abaholi baseSlovenia, waze wathi iSlovenia iyizwe elingaphansi kweSoviet. Futhi cishe uyazi e-US ukuthi uDonald Trump waze wathi iYugoslavia yahlukana eBaltic, hhayi emazweni aseBalkan. Ngakho-ke uyabona ukuthi kukhona obaziyo, ukudideka okuningi, ngisho nangesimo sezwe, ngisho noma uMelania evela eSloveniaโ Empeleni, angazi ukuthi bangaki abantu base-U.S. abaziyo ukuthi iSlovenia yayiyingxenye yeYugoslavia.
JS: Omunye wabaphathi bohlelo lwe-MSNBC e-U.S., uJoy-Ann Reid uthe - UngowaseSoviet Yugoslavia.
SH: Yilokho kanye okwenzeka ngaso sonke isikhathi. Ngisho nalapho bengithula bathi, โO, uyisazi sefilosofi saseSoviet Yugoslavia.โ Okusiletha ngokuqondile, emuva embuzweni wakho, ngoba ngicabanga ukuthi isipiliyoni saseYugoslavia sasikhethekile ngempela ngoba kwakungeyona iSoviet. Uyazi, ukudalwa kobusoshiyali bangempela obukhona kwenzeka ngemva kokuba uTito ephumule noStalin futhi engafuni ukulandela imithetho yeComintern. Okwadingeka ubuyele embuzweni wakho ngawo-90, ngemva kokuwa kweYugoslavia ngempela lokhu kusula komlando, okwenzeka ngezindlela ezihlukene kuma-republic ahlukene aseYugoslavia.
E-Croatia, ngeshwa, ngakolunye uhlangothi, kwathatha ifomu ababeyikhahlela ngempela, beyeka izincwadi ezikoleni ezixhunywe kuMarx kuya ku-Engels nokunye, kodwa futhi kuDostoevsky, noma uTolstoy. Iningi lezincwadi enginazo namuhla emtatsheni wezincwadi wasekhaya, zigcinwe ama-gypsies, zithengiswa ezimakethe ze-flea, njalonjalo, futhi ngazithenga, njalonjalo. Kodwa okunye futhi, ngingasho ukuthi umphumela obuhlungu kwaba ukucekelwa phansi kwezikhumbuzo ezimelene nobufascist. Izinkulungwane ezingaphezu kwezinkulungwane zezikhumbuzo zabhujiswa eCroatia, okwakuyisinyathelo esinqunyiwe ngempela sokusula umlando womzabalazo wama-Partisan futhi kahle, ngingasho, iphrojekthi enkulu yesimanje, eyenzeka lapha eYugoslavia.
Lesi simo, ngingasho, asiqondile nje ngeCroatia. Kuyathakazelisa kakhulu ukubona ukuthi lolu hlobo lokubuyekezwa komlando, okuyinto empeleni eguqula abanqotshiwe eMpini Yezwe Yesibili ibe yilabo abaphumelele ukunqoba, okuyiqiniso, okungamanga, kodwa ungabona ukuthi lo mkhuba uyenzeka ngempela kokuthunyelwe okuningi. amazwe amakhomanisi. Uma uya ePoland, uma uya eHungary, njengaseHungary, ingobo yomlando ye-Gyรถrgy Lukรกcs ivaliwe, engicabanga ukuthi ihlazo elikhulu. Khona-ke ePoland, yiqiniso, unalokhu kukhuphuka kwamabutho angamaKristu aqinile axhumene nokukhipha isisu nokunye. Ngendlela efanayo nase-United States, unalolu hlobo lwenganekwane ye-Handmaidโs Tale eyenzeka ngokoqobo, e-Poland, e-U.S., nakulawo mazwe. Futhi ngokuyisisekelo isiphetho sami salokhu sithi, kungani lokhu kubuyekezwa komlando kuchuma kakhulu emazweni angemva kobukhomanisi?
Ngingasho ngokuqondile ngoba lokho okubizwa ngokuthi inkathi yenguquko, njengoba beyibiza kanjalo emibuthanweni yezemfundo, uguquko okusho ukuthi uguquko olusuka kubukhomanisi luye kwi-capitalism aluzange luphumelele. Akuzange kuphumelele ngoba uma ubheka la mazwe - Croatia, Serbia, ingasaphathwa iBosnia, noma iKosovo - uzobona ukuthi la mazwe angaphansi kwe-European Union, asesimweni sobukoloni. Izinkampani zaseJalimane, isiFulentshi, isiNtaliyane ngokuyisisekelo zingabanikazi bazo zonke izinkampani, ezazingaphansi kukahulumeni ngaphambili, ingqalasizinda, kusukela emabhange kuya kokuthunyelwe, njalonjalo.
Bese-ke umbuzo uwukuthi ngempela unanoma yiluphi uhlobo lobukhosi. Futhi uma ungenalo ngempela noma yiluphi uhlobo lobukhosi, okuyinto engekho kulawa mazwe kuphela, kodwa ukubonile ngochungechunge lokuhlangenwe nakho eGreece, uma ungenabo ubukhosi bangempela, khona-ke isisombululo ngokuvamile kakhulu ukubuyekezwa komlando okusho ukwakha uhlobo oluthile lobunikazi ngomqondo weMelika kuqala, iCroatia kuqala, noma yikuphi kuqala. Kodwa lolu hlobo lobunikazi mbumbulu bobunikazi bezwe, engicabanga ukuthi ekhulwini lama-21 luwumbono oyinkinga kakhulu njengoba wona kanye umqondo wobukhosi uzoshintsha ngokuphelele emashumini eminyaka ezayo.
JS: Kade ngiseBelgrade, eSerbia futhi uNdunankulu waseSerbia u-Aleksandar Vucic wayengungqongqoshe wezolwazi kaSlobodan Miloลกevic ngasekupheleni kwawo-1990 nangesikhathi kuqhunyiswa amabhomu iYugoslavia phezu kweKosovo. Manje usuneSerbia ezama ukuthola ukuthi izoziqondisa ngakuphi. I-Russia ikhuphule ukutshalwa kwezimali kwayo eSerbia. Futhi une-Emirates ezayo eSerbia. Bese uba neCroatia, okuwuhlobo lwe-neo-liberal rump ilungu le-European Union. Futhi kubonakala sengathi ezindaweni ezazingaphansi kweYugoslavia, unokuguquguquka okufanayo okwenzeka kwamanye amazwe aseYurophu ngesikhathi sokuwa kweYugoslavia, lapho bezama ukuthola ukuthi ubani ozoba umxhasi. Futhi-ke iBosnia iyaqhubeka nokujeziswa ngokwezomnotho njengabantu futhi isesimweni somnotho esibi futhi abaseBosnia cishe abanalo ithuba. KwakuseCroatia, ungabona inqwaba yamaBosnia esebenza eCroatia. Manje njengoba iCroatia isiyilungu le-EU, ubona kancane kancane kodwa ukhuluma ngendawo yamazwe ayeyiYugoslavia yangaphambili kanye nemidlalo ye-geopolitical edlalwayo.
SH: Ngingasho ukuthi i-Balkans kanye ne-ex-Yugoslavia le ngxenye ye-Europe ngokwezwe iba enye yezindawo ezithakazelisa kakhulu, ngingasho, izindawo zalabo abavele bayilandele. Kodwa kulabo abahlala lapha, isimo siya sibakhathaza kakhulu, ngingasho, ngoba ungabona izitayela ezahlukene emazweni ahlukene. Futhi-ke, manje sinemingcele emisha. Amanye amazwe ayingxenye ye-European Union njengeSlovenia, Croatia, ngakho-ke, uyazi, i-European Union ithumela i-Frontex, okuyibutho elibhekene nababaleki kanye nokuvikela imingcele yangaphandle. Ngakho-ke ithumela i-Frontex phakathi kwe-Croatia ne-Bosnia, edala ukuhlukana okukhulu nakakhulu.
Kodwa engikuthola kuthakazelisa kakhulu iSerbia. Ngichithe isikhathi esiningi eSerbia, nginabangane abaningi lapho, ngiyivakashela kaningi. E-Serbia, ungabona ukuthi iyiphi indlela, ungabona ukwehluleka kwe-European Union, ngakolunye uhlangothi. Ukwehluleka ngomqondo wokuthi i-European Union ayisathandeki kangako ekufinyeleleni amazwe eminyakeni eyi-10 edlule, ngicabanga ukuthi wonke umuntu eSerbia ubengathanda ukungena e-European Union. Uma uya lapho namuhla, awusekho umdlandla wakho. Esikhundleni salokho, njengoba ushilo, unenhloko-dolobha yaseRussia, ithonya laseRussia.
UVladimir Putin muva nje, ngonyaka odlule uvakashele eBelgrade. Kwakukhona abantu abangu-100,000 ababemlindile, okwakuwumdlalo weshashalazi kaVucic, owayekhokhela abantu ngokuyisisekelo, wabakhokhela amathikithi ebhasi avela emadolobhaneni aseSerbia, nokunye kanye namasemishi, anjalo ngempela ukuza eBelgrade. Ngakho-ke, ungacabanga ukuthi hlobo luni lwesimo esibi abantu baseSerbia abahlala kula madolobhana ngoba ngokuvamile abanalo ngisho nethuba lokuza eBelgrade. Kodwa uPutin wenza lokhu ngesizathu esithile, esibizwa ngokuthi i-Nord Stream. Ngakho-ke i-Nord Stream ngomqondo wokuthi ungabona ukuthi iYurophu iphakathi kwempi entsha yamandla phakathi kwe-United States neRussia. Uyazi, ubani ozohlinzeka ngegesi yemvelo eYurophu? Ngabe kuzoba amaRussia noma kuzoba yi-U.S.? Futhi uzobona naseJalimane, ngangihlala izinyanga ezimbili zokugcina eJalimane. Ngalandela inkulumo-mpikiswano lapho. Kukhona futhi impikiswano enkulu mayelana nombuzo ofanayo.
Ngakho, ngibuyela eSerbia. Ngakho ngakolunye uhlangothi, ungabona ithonya laseRussia, elixhumene negesi yemvelo. Ngakolunye uhlangothi, iBelgrade njengedolobha ishintsha ngokuphelele. Iphenduka iDubai entsha. Unezakhiwo eziphakeme. Une-United Arab Emirates eyakha lamaphrojekthi angenangqondo, amabi e-Belgrade. Futhi-ke, kunjalo, uneChina. Bese sikhuluma ngeChina, kuyathakazelisa ngempela ukuthi ngayiphi indlela, i-China empeleni isebenzisa ukwehluleka kanye nokungabi namandla kwenqubomgomo yezangaphandle yaseYurophu ngoba ayikho into efana nenqubomgomo yezangaphandle yaseYurophu njengoba ubona. Ngakolunye uhlangothi uno-Angela Merkel enikeza inkulumo eHarvard, egxeka uTrump, nakuba engamqambanga ngegama, kodwa siyazi. Futhi ngakolunye uhlangothi, unomndeni wasebukhosini eLondon, ubingelela uTrump njengohlobo olubi lukaTerry Gilliam, ifilimu yaseBrazil noma into enjalo.
Ngakho-ke ukungasebenzi kahle kweYurophu uma kukhulunywa ngenqubomgomo yezangaphandle kudale inkundla evulekile emazweni ase-Balkan ngezintshisakalo ezahlukene zezwe. Nge-China kuyathakazelisa ukuthi ngingasho ukuthi, lena iphrojekthi yengqalasizinda emikhulu yasekuqaleni kwekhulunyaka lama-21, iphrojekthi ye-One Belt One Road, ukwakha lo jantshi wejubane osuka e-China uya eYurophu. Kufanele sibuyele emuva. Ngaleyo ndlela inqubomgomo yezangaphandle yaseYurophu kodwa nenqubomgomo yezomnotho empeleni yadala ithuba lokuthi iChina ingene ngale ndlela enkulu eYurophu, yakha ingqalasizinda.
Futhi uma ubuyela eGreece ngonyaka ka-2015, obekuwumfutho obalulekile, ngoba amaphesenti angama-61 abantu baseGreece avotele โoxiโ [cha] kunhlolovo. Bavota ngokumelene nezinyathelo zokuqiniswa kwemali, ezabekwa izikhungo zaseYurophu, i-European Central Bank, nezinye, okuwumzila osemthethweni waseYurophu: niyazi ukuthi, nidinga ukulinganisela okwengeziwe, nidinga ukudayisa impahla yenu yomphakathiโizikhumulo zenu zezindiza, amachweba akho. Futhi-ke okwenzekayo, yiqiniso, ukuthi uhulumeni waseGreece waseSyriza waphoqeleka ukuthi athengise iPort of Piraeus eGreece, okungelinye lamachweba abaluleke kakhulu oLwandle iMedithera, enkampanini yaseShayina ebizwa ngokuthi iCOSCO.
Futhi amaShayina - lokho kwakungu-2015 - amaShayina okwamanje, kunjalo, uma ubheka imephu, uma ungakwazi ukubona imephu ngeso lengqondo, ukuze ube neGreece kancane phansi lapho. Abafuna ukukwenza manje ngemikhumbi, bazothutha izimpahla, futhi sebevele bekwenza ngqo echwebeni lasePiraeus, khona-ke ujantshi uzokhuphukela eMacedonia, bese uya eBulgaria ukuya eSerbia. UNdunankulu waseShayina wayeseSerbia ngonyaka odlule, futhi benza isivumelwano kanye noVucic noViktor Orban, okusho ukuthi manje sebevele bephrojekthi, ngicabanga, yokwakha ujantshi omusha, osuka eBelgrade uya eBudapest -
JS: Futhi iyini imiphumela yalo mzila wesitimela iChina ewubekayo ngemuva kokuqothuka komnotho waseGreece noma ukuphoqelelwa komnotho waseGreece?
SH: Nokho, ngicabanga ukuthi imiphumela mikhulu ngempela. Ngisho, kakade manje, namuhla, akunakwenzeka ukugwema imikhiqizo yaseShayina noma kuphi. Kodwa abazokwenza yilokho abakuqaphelayo, okwaqaphela iChina ukuthi ukuthuthwa kwemikhiqizo ngemikhumbi kuhamba kancane kakhulu. Futhi-ke ngesinye isikhathi ubuye ube nenkinga nezigebengu zaseSomalia nokunye. Angazi noma zisasebenza, kodwa zihamba kancane kakhulu. Futhi isikhathi siyimali njengoba i-mantra yonxiwankulu isho, futhi bayaqaphela ukuthi uma bekwazi ukuthutha imikhiqizo isuka eBeijing ukuze sithi, eHamburg emasontweni amabili, empeleni izobaletha emandleni amakhulu nakakhulu ezombusazwe. Kusho ukuthini kumaBalkan nangekusasa le-European Union, ngizokubeka kanje: Kungani kungeyona iYurophu ngokwayo, etshala imali kumaphrojekthi amakhulu wengqalasizinda? Kungani iYurophu ingazakhi izitimela zikaloliwe? Ubuwazi ukuthi i-China yakha njalo ngonyaka amathrekhi kaloliwe ashesha kakhulu kunaseJalimane esewonke? Uyazi
JS: Asinaye e-United States, Srecko. Asinazo izitimela ezihamba ngesivinini esiphezulu kuleli zwe.
SH: Yebo, kepha unayo, uzoba neHyperloop nayo yonke le shit. Ngisho, ngiyadlala. Kodwa yebo, ngiyazi, kuzwakala njengomuntu waseYurophu okhalazayo kuwe ongenayo. Kodwa ake ngikutshele i-anecdote. Onyakeni odlule, noma ngalesi sikhathi, uhambo olusuka eZagreb luya eBelgrade ngesitimela manje seluthatha cishe amahora ayisikhombisa noma ayisishiyagalombili. Ingamakhilomitha angama-350-400. Futhi ngokusho kwedatha engiyitholile, lolu hambo olufanayo phakathi nobukhosi base-Austrian-Hungarian, okwakukhona, uyazi, isikhathi esiningi esidlule, kuthatha isikhathi esincane kunanamuhla. Ngakho uyabona ukuthi ingqalasizinda isicekeleke phansi. Ibhuqiwe, yebo, ngenxa yenkohlakalo, ngenxa yokuqina nokunye.
Futhi ngesitimela saseShayina, lolu hambo luzothatha ihora elilodwa, mhlawumbe, kodwa kunenkinga, kunjalo. Uyazi, kunenkinga yokuthi ukwakhiwa okwenziwa amaShayina ukuthi ngokuyisisekelo, lawa mathrekhi kaloliwe, ngokwazi kwami, mhlawumbe nginephutha, ngeke asetshenziswe kakhulu ekuhambeni kwabagibeli, kodwa ikakhulukazi ukuthutha abagibeli. izimpahla.
Kodwa ukuze ubuyele eYurophu, uyazi, yini ongayibona lapha ngakho konke lokhu esikhulume ngakho, iSerbia kulesi simo, iCroatia kulesi simo, ingasaphathwa, uyazi, i-Austria, ukuthi kwenzekani lapho. Kuzoba nokhetho olusheshayo ngoSepthemba. Manje sekunokhetho olusheshayo eGreece, njengoba iNew Democracy ikhuphuka kule nyanga. Uyabona ukuthi i-Europe isenkingeni ejulile. I-Europe ayiyona nje, uyazi, lolu hlobo lwenkinga yobunikazi, ngicabanga ukuthi kuyinkinga enkulu yangaphakathi kanye nenkinga enkulu yezwe. Futhi ngenkathi iYurophu ikule nkinga, ingakwazi ukuthola indlela evamile yezombangazwe, ezolandela, futhi okufanele ilandele. Ilahlekelwa umhlaba, ngingasho, kwabanye abadlali eChina, eRussia, e-Arabs, njalonjalo, ngisho nase-U.S. Ungayibona ngokuvakasha kukaTrump e-U.K.
Ngakho-ke, uneYurophu engasahlangene. UneYurophu, empeleni enikeza ingqalasizinda yayo esikhundleni sokutshala imali engqalasizinda. Une-Europe okungenzeka ukuthi ngokombono waseMelika, i-Europe isabukeka njengeParis kumamuvi, i-Rome kanye nalo lonke lolu hlobo lwe-utopian bullshit mayelana ne-Europe. Kodwa isimo lapha empeleni sikhathaza kakhulu. Futhi okwenzeka eYurophu kuzoba nemiphumela ejulile e-US njalo njalo, njengoba kwakuhlala kwenzeka emhlabeni wonke. Ungakhohlwa ukuthi izimpi zezwe ezimbili zaqala eYurophu, ukuthi ngawo-90, saba nokuhlukana kweYugoslavia, okuyinto futhi, njengoba singabona manje inemiphumela kulo lonke elaseYurophu.
JS: Vele, ubunensizwa yaseSerbia, uGavrilo Princip, owaziyo, owazi, umlando uthi, ekugcineni, umzamo wakhe wokubulala u-Archduke uFranz Ferdinand nesancinza sakhe, kwaba umcimbi okhuthaza iMpi Yezwe I futhi-ke, nawe futhi. iYugoslavia yavela ngendlela ebaluleke kakhulu emlandweni eMpini Yezwe II. Futhi ingxenye yokuthi kungani ngifune ukukhuluma nawe ingoba unale ncwadi entsha ethi โPoetry From the Futureโ engincoma kakhulu ukuthi abantu bayithathe bayifunde. Futhi kuyo ukhuluma ngokubaluleka kwalokho okwaziwa ngokuthi ama-Partisan ukusungula umphakathi omusha nokuhlanganisa la ma-republic ayisithupha kulelizwe, iYugoslavia.
Futhi ubhala, โEsikhundleni sokuba izisulu zezimo zabo zomlando, abantu baseYugoslavia babalawula futhi babaguqulela ukuze bazuze. Kusukela ezintabeni zaseBosnia, eHerzegovina naseMontenegro enqamula emahlathini aseSlovenia, eCroatia naseSerbia, futhi ekugcineni e-Island of Vis, elwa impi yabashokobezi ngokumelene namaNazi nama-fascists amaningi okuhlanganisa nabahlanganyeli bendawo, ama-Ustaลกe namaChetnik. Ama-Partisan awaphumelelanga nje kuphela ekukhululeni indawo yaseYugoslavia, kodwa nasekusunguleni umphakathi omusha osekelwe emzabalazweni wokuvukela umbuso.โ Ngaphambi kokuba sikhulume ngaleso sakhiwo sangemva kwempi, chazela abantu abangawazi lo mlando ukubaluleka kukaJosip Broz Tito, owaziwa ngokuthi uMarshal Tito, kanye namabutho amaQembu anqoba ngempumelelo amaNazi namaFascist ase-Italy.
SH: Umbuzo omuhle kakhulu futhi ngicabanga ukuthi yonke isipiliyoni sokuhlola saseYugoslavia sinezifundo eziningi kakhulu ngesimo sethu namuhla. Ngakho-ke angiqale ngisho ukuthi angiyena neze umuntu ongenangqondo. Ngingumuntu ogxeka kakhulu, ngesikhathi esifanayo sokuhlangenwe nakho kwaseYugoslavia ngezizathu ezahlukene esingakhuluma ngazo. Ngesikhathi esifanayo, ngicabanga, ngokuqondile lokhu kulandelana komlando kusukela eMpini Yezwe yesibili kubaluleke kakhulu namuhla, ngoba kubonisa izinto eziningana. Okokuqala, ukuze uqonde kangcono, kufanele ucabange imephu yaseYurophu enombala obomvu, futhi umbala obomvu umelela amaNazi athatha amazwe. Futhi uma ubheka iYurophu ngawo-40, ekuqaleni kwawo-40, ngokwesibonelo, ekhulwini leminyaka elidlule, uzobona ukuthi iningi laseYurophu libomvu. Ayibomvu ngomqondo wobukhomanisi, kodwa iphethwe amaNazi.
Futhi iYugoslavia yangaphambili, ngaleso sikhathi, kwakuyiYugoslavia, kodwa hhayi i-socialist okwamanje, yayigcwele futhi. Ubunemithetho yopopayi e-Croatia. Ubunabambisene nabo e-Serbia futhi kulesi simo, bekunenhlangano yabashokobezi yamakhomanisi. Empeleni, kwakuyinhlangano yabashokobezi, ngisho nangaphambi kokunyakaza kwabashokobezi eLatin America, njalonjalo. Ngoba indawo yaseYugoslavia igcwele izintaba, imifula, iziqhingi, njalonjalo. Futhi ama-Yugoslav Partisans aholwa uTito nabanye abaningi, nabo besifazane, empeleni kwakuwukuphela kwenhlangano ephikisayo engingayisho eYurophu. Sasinezinhlangano zokumelana njengoba sazi, ukumelana eFrance. Sasinenhlangano yokuphikisa yamaGreki nokunye kodwa ngingasho ukuthi ama-Yugoslav Partisans yiwo kuphela aphumelele ukusebenzisa isimo sempi kanye nomsebenzi ophelele ukuze enze inguquko yomphakathi, niyazi. Kwakungekhona nje, o, saphuma empini futhi-ke konke kufanele kushintshe ukuze konke kuhlale okufanayo, njengoba uLampedusa ayengasho.
Lapha, kwakungenjalo. Kwakungekona nje ukuqhubeka kohlobo olukhululekile lwesistimu. Kwakuwumzamo wokuguqula kakhulu umphakathi. Futhi usho uGavrilo Princip, okunguyena owadubula uFranz Ferdinand. Abantu bathi uyena obangele impi yezwe yokuqala. Nokho, phakathi nesikhathi lapho uGavrilo Princip ehamba khona, lokhu kuwukuqala kwekhulu lama-20. Ngaleso sikhathi, amaphesenti angama-95 abantu baseBosnia uGavrilo Princip aqhamuka - ngisho ukuthi wayelapho - amaphesenti angama-95 abantu baseBosnia ayengakwazi ukufunda nokubhala.
Manje, isimo sihluke ngokuphelele. Uyazi, ngenxa yephrojekthi yesimanje yaseYugoslavia, owawuyazi, ukwakha imigwaqo emikhulu, izakhiwo zokwakha, uyazi, e-MoMA, umnyuziyamu waseNew York usanda kuba nombukiso, omuhle ngempela obizwa ngokuthi i-Concrete Utopia, mayelana nezakhiwo zaseYugoslavia. Futhi kuyadabukisa ngempela ukuthi lapha eCroatia, eSerbia, njalo njalo lezi zakhiwo ezinhle ezibukeka njengezinganekwane zesayensi, zicekelwe phansi, zonakele, akekho onendaba ngempela. Bese uba neMuseum of Modern Art eNew York, esibonisa ukuthi hlobo luni lwezakhiwo ebesinazo. Ngakho kwakuyizakhiwo, kwakuyiphrojekthi yesimanje, ehlanganisa yonke imikhakha yokuphila.
Futhi-ke, ngingakhuluma kabanzi ngakho, kodwa ake ngisho ukuthi uma kunezifundo ezintathu zokuhlangenwe nakho kwaseYugoslavia, ngingasho eyokuqala - izifundo ezintathu zezikhathi zethu ezimnyama, ze-dystopian namuhla - isifundo sokuqala siphikisana ne-fascism. futhi ngayiphi indlela ongahola ngayo umzabalazo ophumelelayo wokulwa nobufascism. Lapha kubalulekile futhi ukubiza zonke izingxoxo ezaba phakathi kukaTito noFitzroy Maclean - ngakolunye uhlangothi owayengumgqugquzeli wangempela womlingiswa kaJames Bond, futhi owayelwa ndawonye nama-Partisan asuka eBosnia kuya eSiqhingini SaseVis. - kanye noWinston Churchill engingamtholi umlingiswa omuhle kakhulu emlandweni. Kodwa, futhi lokho kuyisifundo esikhulu engingasisho, uWinston Churchill wabona ukuthi ukuphela kwendlela yokunqoba iMpi Yezwe Yesibili ukwenza umbimbi ngisho nalabo ayebadelela kakhulu, okungamakhomanisi, kodwa wakwenza ngenxa yezizathu zamasu. .
Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi lokhu, uyazi, ukwehluleka namuhla lapho ungabona khona ukuthi ukusungulwa kwenkululeko, isikhungo esibizwa ngokuthi isikhungo sezombangazwe sisaba kakhulu imifelandawonye nesobunxele. Esikhundleni sokuba nemifelandawonye nesobunxele, benza konke ukuze banciphise kwesokunxele. I-Yugoslavia iyisifundo esihle, ngingasho, ukukhombisa ukuthi uma sifuna ngempela ukuphuma kulesi simo sanamuhla esiyingozi kakhulu se-geopolitical, sizodinga izivumelwano ezintsha, ngisho noma zingamaqhinga nje.
Isifundo sesibili - ngakho-ke, isifundo sokuqala anti-fascism nokuthi iyiphi indlela yokunqoba i-fascism. Isifundo sesibili esokuzilawula. Yingakho ngicasuka kakhulu lapho bonke laba bantu bekhuluma ngeSoviet Yugoslavia. Umehluko omkhulu kwaba yilokho uTito akwenza ngo-1948, ukuthi lapho ehlukana noStalin kanye noComintern, ukuthi wethula iphrojekthi yokuzilawula ngokwayo, okuyinto ekusebenzeni kahle, ayizange isebenze ngempela kodwa umqondo wawumuhle. Umqondo wawuwukuthi inani elingaphezulu lomsebenzi owenziwe ngabasebenzi lalingeke liye kubaphathi nakumabhange njalonjalo kodwa libuyele emuva bese linquma ngekusasa labo. Ngakho-ke, akuyona nje intando yeningi. Bekufanele kube yintando yeningi yezomnotho.
Ngezizathu ezahlukene ezingaphumelelanga. Singakhuluma ngayo futhi kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi namuhla kuwumbono obaluleke kakhulu futhi lapho wazi khona, umphathi enkampanini njenge-CEO unomholo omkhulu ngokuphindwe ka-400 noma u-1,000 kunesisebenzi enkampanini efanayo futhi yilokhu okuqale ngoMargaret. Thatcher noRonald Regan, le threndi ngeminyaka yawo-'70s njalo njalo.
JS: Ngaphambi kokuthi uye kwesesithathu, ngifuna nje ukwabelana ngeqiniso elilodwa engihlale ngilithola lingakholeki ngendaba yaseYugoslavia nokuthi ngenkathi iYugoslavia ikhona futhi izama impahla ephethwe umphakathi, indlela evame kakhulu leyo. abasebenzi bathola ikhaya eYugoslavia ngenxa yomsebenzi wabo. Ngendlela efanayo abantu baseMelika abathembele kubaqashi ekunakekelweni kwezempilo, okuwuhlelo olubi, eYugoslavia, indlela abantu abaningi abaphothula ngayo ukuhlala nabazali babo, uyazi, nemindeni yabo emincane beya efulethini labo ukuthi bazohola. ifulethi ngomsebenzi wabo. Futhi leyo kwakuyindlela eyayivame kakhulu abantu ababethola ngayo indawo yokuhlala, akunjalo?
SH: Yebo, ngiyabonga ngalokhu ngoba ngicabanga ukuthi sekuyisihloko esifanele namuhla. Uyazi, ngisanda kubuya eBerlin naseBerlin, kukhona, njengakuwo wonke amadolobha aseYurophu, kunenkinga enkulu yezindlu, ngakolunye uhlangothi, umphumela we-monopoly capitalism. Uyazi, izinkampani ezinkulu ezithenga amafulethi amaningi edolobheni bese amanani enyuka futhi ngakolunye uhlangothi, kuwumphumela walokho okubizwa ngokuthi i-platform capitalism okusho ukuthi i-Airbnb-isation yakho yonke into. Okwaziyo ukukubeka kulula kakhulu, kusho ukuthi uma umfundi ovela esigodini esincane saseCroatia noma iSpanishi efuna ukuza eBarcelona noma eZagreb, intengo, wonke umuntu, kunzima kakhulu ukuthola ngisho nefulethi ukuhlala enkabeni yedolobha. idolobha ngoba kunenzuzo enkulu ukuqasha ifulethi ku-Airbnb futhi lokho kuyinkinga enkulu.
E-Berlin, babe nenkinga yokuthi inkampani eyodwa yakamuva kakhulu, inkampani eyodwa yaphumelela ukuba namafulethi angaphezu kuka-3,000 eBerlin futhi yashintsha ngokuphelele yonke imakethe yezindlu eBerlin. Ngoba uma unamafulethi angu-3,000, ngokuyisisekelo, nguwe onganquma ngamanani. Ibizwa nge-monopoly capitalism. EYugoslavia, futhi kanjalo sasinezindlu zomphakathi. Hhayi lokho nje kungase kukumangaze ngoba kuzozwakala kuyizindaba ezingelona iqiniso engathi ngizisungule njengamanje kodwa woza eCroatia Coast, uzokwazi, uke waya oGwini lwaseCroatia. Uzobona ngisho namahhotela abasebenzi abebezovakashela kuyona obekuyingxenye yenkontileka yabo.
JS: Ingxenye yalokho engicabanga ukuthi kuthakazelisa kakhulu, ukunikeza izibonelo eziphathekayo esikhuluma ngazo lapha yingoba kungumqondo wangaphandle kubantu base-United States, kodwa ehlobo eledlule bengisendaweni encane e-Adriatic Coast ngaphandle kwase-United States. idolobha laseZadar futhi ngabona lokhu kushiywe, okwakubukeka sengathi uchungechunge lwama-bungalows amahle ngempela futhi luzodilizwa phansi futhi kuzoba nama-condos aphakeme noma ihhotela elibekwe lapho mhlawumbe ngemali yaseTurkey. Izinkampani eziningi zaseTurkey manje sezitshala imali ogwini lwe-Adriatic. Kodwa okwakuyikho ngaphansi kweYugoslavia ama-bungalows asehlobo ezisebenzi zeposi ezivela kulo lonke elaseYugoslavia. Babenelungelo lokuya lapho ngeholide njalo ngonyaka futhi kwakuwuchungechunge lwama-bungalows nje ukuze abasebenzi baseposini bathathe isikhathi sabo sokuphumula.
SH: Yebo, kodwa yilokho kanye into ethakazelisayo. Ngicabanga ukuthi iningi labantu abasilalelayo manje bazocabanga ukuthi sivela esikhathini esidlule samakhomanisi, niyazi, lolu hlobo lomnyango we-propaganda, kodwa akunjalo. Uyazi, uya ku-I mean, angazi noma ivuliwe yini kodwa umbukiso we-Concrete Utopia e-Museum of Modern Art eNew York nawo ubonisa lawa mahhotela njengama-bungalows, njalonjalo. Futhi ngaphandle nje kokunikeza bonke laba bantu, izisebenzi ithuba lokuya eholidini ogwini, uyazi, futhi ngicabanga ukuthi, kwakubaluleke kakhulu ekuhlukeni nasekuhwebeni phakathi kwamazwe ahlukene aseYugoslavia, ngoba ngicabanga ngempela, uyazi. , IYurophu yayinalo noma isenalo lolu hlelo lwe-Erasmus, ikakhulukazi abafundi abasuke bathola umfundaze wokujikeleza iYurophu. Kepha ngicabanga ukuthi esikudingayo namuhla uhlobo lwe-Erasmus yendawo yonke, uyazi. Kuthiwani uma ngokwesibonelo, isisebenzi seposi saseBrithani singaya eCroatia futhi isisebenzi saseCroatia singaya eLondon futhi kuzoba nohlelo oluhlelekile lokuhwebelana nokunye? Ngingasho ukuthi uzobona ngokushesha ukuwa kwe-right-wing populism nokunye ngoba iningi labantu alihambi nje inkinga enkulu.
Vele, ngokushintsha kwesimo sezulu kanye nenkinga yesimo sezulu, singaphinda sibuze eminye imibuzo ukuthi abantu kufanele bahambe kakhulu yini. Ukhulume ngezokuvakasha. Inkinga enkulu kulawa mazwe azungeze i-European Union - iSpain, iPortugal, iGreece, iCroatia ihlanganisa - ezokuvakasha. Kungani kuyinkinga? Kuyinkinga ngoba - ngizokunikeza nje izibalo zeCroatia - iCroatia neMalta amazwe amabili aphezulu emhlabeni uma kukhulunywa ngesabelo se-GDP kwezokuvakasha. E-Croatia, ngicabanga ukuthi manje isingaphezu kwamaphesenti angu-18 okusho ukuthi empeleni unomnotho oncike ngokuphelele kwezokuvakasha.
Futhi uyazi, uma uncike ngokuphelele kwezokuvakasha, lapho-ke uncike futhi esimweni sezulu, ngokwesibonelo noma uma isimo esithile se-geopolitical sishintsha noma unokuhlasela kwamaphekula njengaseTunisia ngokwesibonelo, konke kungashintsha bese kungekho 18 amaphesenti e-GDP futhi ayisekho imboni ngoba asisenayo imboni ngemuva kwesikhathi esibizwa ngokuthi inguquko isuka kubukhomanisi iye kwi-capitalism. Lena inkinga enkulu.
Kufana nesimo se-semi-colonial esikuso namuhla futhi ingasaphathwa futhi nezindleko zesimo sezulu ngendlela esicekela ngayo ugu, ngaleyo ndlela sicekela phansi imiphakathi emincane, eyayithembele ekudobeni, isibonelo. Manje, bancike ku-Airbnb.
JS: Uyazi, ngenkathi uWoody Guthrie ebhala futhi ecula, "Lo mhlaba yizwe lakho," niyazi, wonke umuntu waseMelika uyazi okungenani ingxenye yalelo culo ngoba lisetshenziswa kuwena owaziyo, ezentengiso, futhi seliyingxenye yesiko le-pop. Kodwa uma umba wehlela kwamanye amavesi alo, unomugqa lapho ekhuluma khona ngophawu eceleni komgwaqo kanti olunye uhlangothi luthi impahla yangasese. Kanti ngakolunye uhlangothi lwalungenalutho. Futhi uthi lowo mhlaba wenzelwa mina nawe okusho ukuthi, uyazi, wayephikisana nombono wempahla yomuntu siqu. Futhi eCroatia njengamanje, enye yezinkinga ezinkulu zezombangazwe yilokho okhuluma ngakho ukuthi unokuncika kwezokuvakasha, unale ndawo elisogwini elihle futhi injalo. Kuyaphawuleka. Noma ubani oke waya eCroatia uzokutshela ukuthi inhle ngendlela emangalisayo. Futhi yini eyenzekayo -
SH: Ungakusho lokho. Abantu abaningi nakakhulu bazoza -
JS: Uhlangothi olusha lwalokhu ukuthi lwezisekelo zezwe elaliyiYugoslavia kwakuwumbono wokuthi ugu akulona olwamuntu. Okwawo wonke umuntu. Futhi yebo, ubunenkohlakalo kahulumeni kuhlanganise ngaphansi kukaTito futhi ubuneziqhingi ezizimele nakho konke lokho kodwa ngokuvamile, izindawo ezisogwini zaseYugoslavia zazibhekwa njengempahla evamile noma ubani angayisebenzisa. Futhi manje, unalezi zinkampani ezinkulu zamahhotela, unabatshalizimali bakwamanye amazwe abangena. Futhi bathi cha, sifuna ukwazi ukuba nolwandle oluzimele, ngoba umthetho wamanje ungavumela noma ubani ukuthi aye ngisho nendawo yokungcebeleka yezinkanyezi ezinhlanu. okuthiwa ibhishi langasese, futhi bangathi, nginelungelo lokubeka ithawula lami eduze kwezihlalo zenu zikanokusho. Ngingahlala kuleli bhishi ngoba ngelabantu. Manje, lokho kungase kushintshe futhi kungenxa yezizathu eziqondile okhuluma ngazo. Ibhizinisi elizimele. Ukuncika kwezokuvakasha bese kuba abatshalizimali bakwamanye amazwe abanolaka kakhulu abasebenza nosomabhizinisi abakhohlakele baseCroatia ukuze benze ugu oluyimfihlo luyimfihlo kubantu.
SH: Yebo, uyichaze njengoba injalo. Ngingathi kubi nakakhulu. Ukuthi, yebo, ngokuqinisekile une-privatization yogu. Ngisho ukuthi besivele sinalo mkhuba. Uyazi, izinto zokuqala ezasungulwa ngemuva, ngesikhathi nje sokuhlukana kweYugoslavia kwakuyimithombo yamanzi. I-Coca-Cola yathenga imithombo yamanzi eminingana e-Bosnia nase-Croatia nokunye, ngawo-90 lapho impi isaqhubeka, okwakuyilona lolu hlobo lwemfundiso yokushaqeka - lokho uNaomi Klein akhuluma ngakho, ngomqondo wokuthi unesimo. ngokushaqeka kwempi bese ngokuyisisekelo uthengisa, osopolitiki abakhohlakele baseCroatia kanye nosopolitiki abakhohlakele baseNtshonalanga benza izivumelwano zokuthengisa imithombo yemvelo.
Futhi lokhu, okwenzekayo manje ogwini kuwumphumela onengqondo wakho. Kodwa kungani ngithi kubi nakakhulu, kubi nakakhulu ngoba ngokuqondile eCroatia, ungabona zonke izinkinga ze-capitalism yomhlaba wonke. Ngakolunye uhlangothi, uyazi, siyajabula ukuthi manje sesixhumene nezwe nokunye. Kodwa zonke lezi zindiza ze-EasyJet, lesi siko le-EasyJet nokunye akugcini nje ukufaka isandla enkingeni yesimo sezulu, futhi ngicabanga ukuthi empeleni, abantu kufanele bahambe kakhulu ngesitimela, kodwa alukho uhlelo lwesitimela olusebenzayo eCroatia ngoba iYurophu ayizange ihambe noma iCroatia ayizange. 'ukutshala imali kuyo njalonjalo. Ngakho-ke sivula futhi izinkinga ezifanayo esinazo.
Kodwa akuyona i-EasyJet kuphela. Angazi, uyabona ukuthi muva nje, iCroatia iphinde yaba isethi yamamuvi amakhulu aseHollywood. Njengalapho ngise-Dubrovnik muva nje, futhi kunezivakashi eziningi kakhulu zamaShayina kanye nabaseMelika. Ngokuyisisekelo, iDubrovnik iyidolobha elithakazelisayo. Umlando wayo uthakazelisa nakakhulu.
JS: Cha, cha, cha, yiKingโs Landing kuphela. Awukho umlando. YiKingโs Landing nje, ndoda.
SH: Yebo, i-Game of Thrones. Futhi, niyazi, futhi wonke umuntu uyakubona lokhu. Futhi uma uya e-Island of Vis, yisiqhingi, esisanda kuba yisethi yefilimu edumile ye-Mamma Mia. Futhi, uyazi, KULUNGILE, ungathi lokhu kwenza iCroatia idume kakhulu, okuzoba kuhle ngoba abantu bendawo bazobe sebeqashisa amafulethi abo nokunye. Kodwa empeleni, kuwuhlobo oluthile, ngingasho, uyazi, leyo filimu ebizwa ngokuthi i-Idiocracy, uyazi, lapho abantu bebuka ifilimu, bese beya lapho bese bethi, oh, King's Landing, uyazi. Cha, akukhona nje Ukufika Kwenkosi, empeleni, inomlando obaluleke kakhulu futhi oheha kakhulu kunomdlalo Wezihlalo zobukhosi.
Kodwa ungabona ukuthi lawa mazwe awuhlobo oluthile, nangaleyo ndlela, ekumeleleni okubonakalayo, kuphinde kube uhlobo lwekoloni noma isethi nje yefilimu. Futhi lokho kubi, yebo, ngisho, kubi esikweni lendawo. Angisho ukuthi kumele sihlehle sibuyele emasikweni endawo. Anginangqondo kangako. Angikholelwa kukho. Kodwa yebo, imikhuba iyalahleka. Izilimi zendawo ziyalahleka, ingasaphathwa eyokukhuphuka kwezintengo zezakhiwo emadolobheni afana neDubrovnik noma amanye asogwini, ngenxa yefilimu yaseHollywood, njalo njalo.
Futhi-ke uma uya e-Dubrovnik noma elinye idolobha lezokuvakasha laseCroatia ebusika, ngeke uthole abantu enkabeni yedolobha. Lapho, amadolobha afile ngokuyisisekelo, ahlukene ngisho nokunye. Ngoba iningi labantu lenza ezokuvakasha nje. Akusekho muntu ohlala khona esikhungweni. Kufana neVenice, ngokwesibonelo, thatha iVenice, thatha ingozi yakamuva eyenzeke ngesikebhe esikhulu eVenice. Ngisho, kuyanyanyisa. Uyazi, impucuko yomuntu iyazibhubhisa ngempela. Angimelene nezokuvakasha. Angisho ukuthi abantu bangahambi. Ngicabanga ukuthi kufanele bahambe ngokunembe kakhulu ukuze bahlangane namanye amasiko. Futhi abanye abantu badinga iholidi ngezikhathi ezithile. Kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi kufanele sicabangisise kabusha ngezokuvakasha zomhlaba wonke nokuthi zisho ukuthini nokuthi zingasimama kanjani, zingaxhunywa kanjani ne-Green New Deal, ekutshalweni kwezimali okukhulu kwengqalasizinda yomphakathi-izitimela, ezinye izinhlobo zezokuthutha. Kuningi okumele kwenziwe uma kuziwa kwezokuvakasha.
JS: Ngiyazi kumele sifinyelele esifundweni sakho sesithathu esingasithatha kulokhu kodwa isizathu sokuthi ngibhoboze abantu bacabange ukuthi โAwu, laba bakhuluma okhula nje,โ yingoba ngicabanga ukuthi ucaphune uzakwethu. kanye nomngane uNaomi Klein, kanye nokubhala kwakhe ku-"Shock Doctrine." Futhi-ke, okuningi kwalokho akwenzayo manje kugxile enhlekeleleni yesimo sezulu esibhekene nayo kulo mhlaba. Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi kulezi zifundazwe ze-neoliberal eziguquke zisuka kwi-socialism noma kubukhomanisi zaba yinoma yini manje njengoba usunamabhange ezizwe ngezizwe. Unamazwe anamandla aseNtshonalanga abeka izindlela zokuqiniswa, njll, emazweni amancane angamalungu amasha eklabhu engewona amakhomanisi, ukuthi nawe unenhlekelele yesimo sezulu e-Croatia ngendlela yale mililo yequbula noma imililo eqalwa ngumuntu ojikijele. ugwayi ngaphandle futhi akukho impendulo ephumelelayo futhi abantu banomusa wokushiya mhlawumbe umbuso uzothumela izindiza noma izindiza ezinophephela emhlane ukuze zicime umlilo wethu noma mhlawumbe sidinga ukuqasha abantu abazimele ukwenza lokhu?
Ngisho ukuthi, leli iqiniso esibhekene nalo manje nasezingxenyeni ezithile ze-United States eCalifornia lapho abantu kufanele baqashe noma babe nomshwalense ngezinkampani ezizimele okuthi uma indlu yami isha, ngizoba neqembu labacimimlilo elizimele. lokho kuzoqinisekisa ukuthi ngicisha umlilo wami kuqala, kunokulinda abathumeli be-911 ukuthi bathumele iloli lomlilo. Ngakho-ke, chaza ukuthi isimo sezulu siyithinta kanjani i-Croatia bese sihlanganiswa uhlobo lokufakwa kwezinsizakalo zikahulumeni noma ukunyamalala kwayo kanye nokuya ekuphenduleni kwezinhlekelele ezizimele.
SH: Isibonelo esivela eCalifornia osinikezile sihle kakhulu ngoba sifakazela ukuthi amazwi kaMargaret Thatcher alungile impela namuhla, ngeshwa. Uyazi ngenkathi uMargaret Thatcher esho lokho ngokudumile, ukuthi ayikho into efana nomphakathi, abantu ngabanye kuphela. Futhi ungakubona eCalifornia nakwamanye amazwe nokunye lapho abaningi ngokwengeziwe unomkhakha ozimele ozosiza abantu abacebile. Ngisho ukuthi ilula kanjalo.
Uma kukhulunywa ngeYurophu ongakubona kuxhumene nenkinga yesimo sezulu akuyona nje imililo yequbula, ngokwesibonelo. I-Croatia, isibonelo, kanye ne-Croatian Coast neziqhingi kunenkinga enkulu ngamapulasitiki kanye nemfucuza. Okuhamba kanjena, uyazi, ngiza njalo ngonyaka esiqhingini esithile saseCroatia futhi uma ngifika entwasahlobo, amabhishi agcwele ipulasitiki. Futhi-ke mina nabangane bendawo - futhi ngiza esifundweni futhi sesinye sezifundo zaseYugoslavia, ngingasho - mina nabangane bami siya lapho ogwini lolwandle, sihlanza ulwandle, njalonjalo. Futhi ngakusasa upulasitiki uyabuya.
Uma ubheka lapho imikhiqizo ivela khona ingxenye yayo ingeyase-Albania, kanti eminye ingeyesiFulentshi noma isiJalimaneโngokwesibonelo, imishini yezokwelapha yesiFulentshi noma yaseJalimane. Bese uyazibuza, โKULUNGILE, kungani kunodoti wase-Albania, isiFulentshi nesiJalimane eziqhingini zaseCroatia?โ Futhi-ke kufanele uze emthonjeni wale nkinga. Futhi umthombo wukuthi, ngakolunye uhlangothi, i-Albania ngemva kokuwa kombuso wamaKhomanisi lapho, ayinalo ngempela uhlelo oluqhubekayo lokulawula imfucuza. Ngakolunye uhlangothiโfuthi lapha sifika enkingeni yomhlaba wonkeโamazwe acebile e-European Union kuhlanganise neJalimane, iFrance, njalonjalo ngokuyisisekelo athumela udoti omningi kuhlanganise nemishini yezokwelapha e-Albania. Bese kulandela imisinga yasolwandle, imfucuza evela e-Albania, kanye nemfucuza yase-Albania kanye naseNtshonalanga Yurophu iza eziqhingini zaseCroatia.
Futhi siyini-ke isifundo saseYugoslavia? Isifundo ukuthi noma ngihlanza ulwandle njalo ngosuku, ngakusasa kuzofika opulasitiki. Ngisho noma kungekho amapulasitiki emabhishi, sonke sesivele sidla ama-microplastics, uyazi. Ososayensi bathole ama-microplastics ukusuka e-Swiss Alps kuya e-Antarctic.
Ngakho-ke, ayikho indlela yokuphuma ngaleyo ndlela futhi ukuphela kwendlela yokuphuma futhi lesi esinye sezifundo zaseYugoslavia, okumele kucatshangelwe kabusha ngokujulile, i-Non-Aligned Movement okungukuthi lokho kwakuyinhlangano yekhulu lama-20 eyayikhona. eyasungulwa uNehru, uTito, kanye noNasser ngombono oyisisekelo wokuthi amazwe aseningizimu yomhlaba kufanele abambisane ndawonye. Yiqiniso, kwakuyisimo seMpi Yomshoshaphansi lapho isizathu esiyinhloko sesisekelo se-Non-Aligned Movement kwakuwukuthi awuhlanganisi iSoviet Russia futhi awuhlanganisi i-United States, kodwa empeleni uzama ukudala inketho yesithathu yangempela futhi ngicabanga ukuthi sikudinga kakhulu namuhla.
Uke wabona ezindabeni muva nje ukuthi iMalaysia ibibuyisela imfucuza amazwe aseNtshonalanga abeyithumela eMalaysia. Ngicabanga ukuthi lokho kuyinto enhle kakhulu futhi kuyakhombisa, ngoba ngilandela impikiswano e-United States. Ngihlonipha i-Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez kakhulu. Nakuba, ngicabanga ukuthi kufanele akhulume kakhulu ngo-Chelsea Manning no-Julian Assange kodwa leso ngesinye isihloko. Kepha akwenzayo futhi ngicabanga ukuthi kuhle ngempela ukuqhubekisela phambili i-Green New Deal.
Kodwa futhi yini ebalulekile nge-Green New Deal, okuyinto ngokuyisisekelo evame ukukhohlwa - njengamanje lapha ngemva kokhetho lwaseYurophu, wonke umuntu ukhuluma ngalokho okubizwa ngokuthi i-green wave, uyazi, i-Green Party yenza kahle kakhulu, njalonjalo. . Lokhu kuwubufakazi bokuthi iYurophu iya endaweni engcono. Nokho, ngimdala ngokwanele, nokho, angimdala kangako. Kodwa ngimdala ngokwanele ukukhumbula ukuthi i-Green Party yasekela impi e-Afghanistan, njalonjalo, futhi abazange benze izinto eziningi kulokho okubizwa ngokuthi inguquko eluhlaza eJalimane.
Ngakho-ke, isifundo salokhu ukuthi ngisho neMalaysia noma imfucuza efika e-Albania bese eya eCroatia, isifundo siwukuthi ayikho i-Green New Deal ezweni elilodwa kuphela nokuthi i-Green New Deal akumele ibe yezenhlalakahle kuphela. kodwa abamelene nonxiwankulu noma abalandela ngonxiwankulu. Ngakho-ke awukwazi ukuba ne-New Deal eluhlaza nje eJalimane, manje esithumela izimoto zikadizili emaphethelweni e-European Union iya eHungary, okuyizwe lesibili emhlabeni lokufa ngaphambi kwesikhathi ngenxa yokungcoliswa komoya.
Ngakho-ke, uyazi, ungacabanga uhlobo lomhlaba olufana nenganekwane yesayensi evela eShayina manje, engicabanga ukuthi ingenye yezinganekwane zesayensi ezihamba phambili, ozaziyo ezithakazelisa kakhulu lapho unomhlaba ohlukaniswe ngokuyisisekelo. Unamazwe lapho abantu bejabulela umoya omuhle, uyazi, isihlabathi njalonjalo emabhishi, futhi unamazwe aminza ngokoqobo kudoti. Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi lokho kubaluleke kakhulu nge-Green New Deal ngoba ngibona izingozi ezimbili ze-Green New Deal. Ingozi eyodwa ye-Green New Deal ukuthi ingase ibe uhlobo lwe-capitalism entsha eluhlaza, uyazi, ukuthi ubunxiwankulu buzobona, kahle, mhlawumbe kungcono ukuphendukela kuma-solar panel nokunye. Seliyakuqaphela.
JS: Lona kwakuwumbono ka-Barack Obama mayelana ne-Green New Deal kwakuwuhlobo lwe-green capitalism.
SH: Yebo, ngisho, usuyabona manje ngisho neThe Greens eJalimane. Yini enye? Ngisho, kuyafana engingakusho, futhi lokho kuyingozi enkulu. Futhi i-capitalism isivele isebenza ekuhlanganiseni futhi yenza inzuzo ngayo. Futhi okunye ukwesaba enginakho ukuthi ukubonile, ngokwesibonelo, noLe Pen muva nje ngesikhathi sokhetho lwase-Europe yinto okufanele siyibize nge-eco-fascism. Futhi akuyona into entsha ngokuphelele, uma ubuyela kuHitler - eJalimane likaHitler -futhi uma ubheka izithombe, uzobona isibonelo, u-Eva Brown owayeyinkosikazi yakhe, enza i-yoga echibini elihle futhi yonke imibono. bekuwuhlobo lokubuyela enibaziyo, blut und boden [igazi nomhlabathi.]
Futhi ungakubona namuhla ukuthi lawa ngabalandeli bamafascist nabo abasebenzisa abo - KULUNGILE, abakhulumi nge-Green New Deal, kodwa futhi bakhuluma ngokubuyela emvelweni nokunye. umkhuba oyingozi kakhulu, ngingasho. Ngakho-ke, lezi yizingozi ezimbili ze-Green New Deal.
Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi isifundo se-Non-Aligned Movement kusukela ekhulwini lama-20, eyasungulwa yiTito, Nehru, Nasser, kanye namazwe amaningi ajoyina ukuthi esikhundleni sokulandela, ake sithi amazwe aseNtshonalanga, okungamazwe amaningi. obhekene nenkinga yesimo sezulu, iNingizimu yomhlaba wonke kufanele yakhe izindlela ezintsha zokubambisana. Futhi kufanele ibuyisele udoti wayo emazweni aseNtshonalanga.
JS: Yebo, ngifuna ukukhuluma kancane mayelana ne-Non-Aligned Movement ngoba ngicabanga ukuthi umlando obaluleke kakhulu, ikakhulukazi kubantu abasha ukuba bafunde. Uyazi, usho u-Nehru, uNasser, kanye noTito kodwa ekugcineni inqwaba yamazwe ahlangene ukuze amemezele ukuthi: Asikho ngaphansi kweSoviet Union futhi asikho ngaphansi kohlelo lobungxiwankulu baseMelika.
Futhi bazama ukudweba indlela yabo yesithathu, kwase kuba nalezi zinhlangano zenkululeko ezivela e-Asia nase-Afrika zihlangene neYugoslavia, ne-India, ne-Egypt namanye amazwe ukuthi asifuni ukubamba iqhaza kulokho oyikho. manje eseyibiza ngeMpi Yomshoshaphansi. Sifuna ukwakha enye imodeli yokuthi imiphakathi ingaxhumana kanjani futhi ihlele. Futhi empeleni, uMalcolm X wakhuluma nge-Non-Aligned Movement kwezinye zezinkulumo zakhe kanye neNgqungquthela yaseBandung phakathi nawo-1950.
Manje zonke lezi zizwe zahlangana futhi zabona ukuthi iSoviet Union noma i-United States ngeke ixazulule izinkinga zomhlaba nokuthi amazwe aseningizimu yezomnotho adinga ukuhlangana ndawonye ukwakha indlela yesithathu ukuze angakwazi. bathembele kwezomnotho kule mibuso emibili ephikisanayo, kodwa futhi ukuze bakwazi ukuzakhela imibono yabo yokuziphatha, yezenhlalakahle, kanye neyobulungisa yokuthi umhlaba kufanele uhlelwe kanjani.
SH: Ngingathi, yebo, siyakudinga ngempela okufanayo namuhla, nakuba inkinga iwukuthi sonke isimo sishintshile. Asisekho ku-Cold war. Asinalo, uyazi, lolu hlobo lwezwe elipholile lapho ngakolunye uhlangothi une-United States, ngakolunye uhlangothi, uneSoviet Russia -
JS: Ingabe uke wayibuka ithelevishini e-United States muva nje? Ngoba yilokho kuphela abakhuluma ngakho ukuthi sineMpi Yomshoshaphansi entsha futhi amaBolshevik eza ukuzontshontsha ukhetho lwethu.
SH: Yebo, angizange, kodwa ngibonile - kodwa lokho, ungabona futhi ukuthi akuwona nje amaBolsheviks, futhi amaShayina, uyazi. Akuwona amaRussia kuphela asenempi yokuhweba namaShayina. Ngakho-ke, noma ubuka ithelevishini, uzobona ukuthi kunabadlali abahlukene manje. Ngakho-ke ngingasho ukuthi liphinde libonise iqiniso lokuthi siphila ezweni elixubile, elihlukile, kodwa yebo, inkulumo-ze kanye nemibono ifana kakhulu neMpi Yomshoshaphansi, uyazi.
Nakuba kuyingozi kakhulu, ngoba namuhla, uyazi, akukhona nje ukubamba izindlela zokukhiqiza. Ngingasho namuhla, kumayelana nokuthatha ama-memes wokukhiqiza. Ungabona ukuthi le nkulumo-ze iphumelele kakhulu, ngenxa yobuchwepheshe nama-memes, ngakolunye uhlangothi, okungukuthi, uyazi, lokhu kudalwa kwezithombe zesikhathi esifushane kakhulu sokunaka, futhi kuthandwa kakhulu, njengoba ubonile nge-Bolsonaro, isibonelo, kanye nendima ye-What's App. Futhi ngakolunye uhlangothi, unohlobo lokuhlela ngaphambili kwezepolitiki, njengendaba yeCambridge Analytica, ngokwesibonelo, kanye ne-Facebook ebonisiwe.
Ngakho-ke, lokho kuyingozi kakhulu, kodwa ngokuqondile kulolu hlobo lwesimo, udinga uhlobo lwenhlangano entsha yenkululeko yomhlaba wonke, engafunda izifundo ze-Non-Aligned Movement. Yini eyaphumelela futhi kwaba yini ukwehluleka? Ngenxa yokuthi i-Non-Aligned Movement isekhona nanamuhla futhi kahle, kukangaki uzwa ngayo? Ikhuluma kakhulu.
Ngingathi enye yezinkinga futhi into eyodwa okufanele siyicabange kabusha ukuthi i-Non-Aligned Movement yayihlanganisa kuphela amazwe okwakuyikhulu lama-20. Ngicabanga ukuthi noma ngabe namuhla unakho yonke indawo ukuhlehla kuzwelonke, iMelika kuqala, iHungary kuqala, iSomalia kuqala, noma ngabe yini, ngicabanga ukuthi izwe lezwe njengombono onikezwe inkambiso ebheke enkingeni yesimo sezulu enkulu nakakhulu, kungase kube umqondo. kusukela esikhathini esedlule.
Ngiqonde ukuthini ngalokho? Uma unamazinga olwandle akhuphukayo, uma ngokusho kwe - ngicabanga, bekuyiBhange Lomhlaba. Uma ngokwezibalo zabo, ngo-2050, uyobe usunamakhulu ezigidi zababaleki ikakhulukazi abavela eNingizimu yomhlaba wonke bezama ukuza eYurophu, khona-ke wona kanye umqondo wombuso wesizwe kufanele uguquke. Wona kanye umqondo wobukhosi kufanele ushintshe futhi sizodinga ukubambisana okwengeziwe emhlabeni wonke, niyazi.
Angazi noma usanda kubuka yini, ngakho-ke angiyibuki ithelevishini yase-U.S., ngeshwa. Ngingathanda ukuyibuka. Ngiyathanda ukubuka i-ideology nokuyihlehlisa. Kepha ngisanda kubuka izinganekwane zesayensi zaseShayina naku-Netflix, angazi noma ngingazisho yini. Kodwa bebelokhu benza izinto ezinhle futhi, ngeke nje kuphela amaRoma ka-Alfonso Cuarรณn, avele lapho. Kepha muva nje, ifilimu yaseShayina eqanjiwe yesayensi ye-blockbuster ivele kuNetflix. Futhi kuyamangalisa, empeleni, noma yini oyicabangayo ngekhwalithi nokulandisa, njalonjalo. Kodwa indaba empeleni iyathakazelisa kakhulu, engavamile kakhulu, lapho wazi khona, unesimo lapho ilanga liphenduka libe yi-giant ebomvu, ukuze umhlaba wonke uhlangane. Bakha uhlobo lukahulumeni womhlaba, uyazi, lo mbono ka-Emmanuel Kant omdala wokuthi abazongenela ukhetho, izifundazwe zizohlangana bese zidala uhulumeni womhlaba. Ukuze bakhe uhulumeni womhlaba wonkeโkuzwakala kuhlanya ngokuphelele lokho engizokusho manjeโbafaka ama-motor angu-10,000 XNUMX ngemuva kweplanethi yoMhlaba, bese bezama ukukhipha iplanethi enguMhlaba emzileni wayo ibheke elangeni elisha. Futhi, uyazi, KULUNGILE, inganekwane yesayensi, kodwa bengingacabangi ukuthi - Niyazi, ngicabanga ukuthi ngeke sikwazi nokucabanga ukuthi kungenzekani ngenxa yesimo sezulu esibucayi.
Isibonelo, thatha i-Arctic, thatha iqhwa elincibilikayo, manje elenza iqiniso lokho uFredric Jameson akusho, uyazi, ukuthi kungenzeka ukucabanga yonke into, ngisho nokuphela kwezwe kodwa hhayi ukuphela konxiwankulu. Ngakho-ke, uyazi, ungacabanga ukuphela komhlaba. Iqhwa liyancibilika nokunye kodwa ubunxiwankulu buzoqhubeka.
Ngonyaka odlule, uDonald Trump wanikeza imvume yokumba i-Arctic. Ubonile futhi ukuthi i-NATO yayineyodwa enkulu kunazo zonke - ngangilapho eNorway ngaleso sikhathi. Ngakho, ngiyakukhumbula. Yayinokuzivocavoca okukhulu kwezempi e-Arctic. Ngakho-ke, kunentshisekelo enkulu kuleyo ndawo futhi uyabona ukuthi inkinga yesimo sezulu izodala imizila emisha hhayi nje yokuthutha impahla kodwa nokusetshenziswa kwamandla ezinto ezimbiwa phansi. Noma thatha isibonelo, i-permafrost. Ababaningi abantu abakhuluma nge-permafrost, kodwa ngokushabalala kwe-permafrost, kungase kube yingozi nakakhulu kunokushintsha kwesimo sezulu. Futhi asikwazi nokubikezela ukuthi yini engenzeka ngenxa yalokho.
Ngakho-ke, uma unalezi zindlela, uma unamakhulu ezigidi zababaleki eminyakeni engamashumi amabili noma amathathu ezayo beza e-U.S. noma eYurophu njalonjalo, ngicabanga ukuthi sizodinga uhlobo lokubambisana lomhlaba wonke olungakaze lube khona okwamanje umlando wesintu, ngingasho, ngoba uzodinga futhi ukusebenzisa isibonelo ibutho, uyazi, hhayi ukuhola izimpi, uyazi, kodwa ukusiza abantu, uyazi, ukunikeza imizila yokubasindisa njalonjalo. Futhi ngeshwa, ngiyabona ukuthi sesivele sihamba ngaleyo ndlela. Ngaphandle uma singakwazi ukwakha umphakathi womhlaba wonke ongaba umphumela wenhlangano yenkululeko yomhlaba wonke kanye nohlobo lwenhlangano entsha ehlangene, ngingasho ukuthi, ezoqondiswa kabusha ngokumelene ne-capitalism, ngokumelene nokuxhashazwa kwemithombo yemvelo, ngokumelene nokuthengiswa kwabantu, imizwelo yabo kanye nenkululeko yokuzikhethelaโkwenzekani ngobuchwephesheโngaphandle uma siphumelela ukudala le nhlangano yomhlaba wonke kanye nomphakathi womhlaba wonke, obungaba umphakathi wokuqala womhlaba wonke ngempela, nginovalo lokuthi ngo-2050, sizobona umhlaba ozofana ngempela Inganekwane yesayensi yamaShayina ngendlela embi kakhulu.
JS: Ngifuna ukuphetha ngokukubuza mayelana nokuthi kufanele silibheke kuphi ithemba. Uyabhala, โEsikudinga kakhulu kunangaphambili namuhla ithemba elingenalo ithemba. Lena ukuphela kwendlela esuka ekuphikiseni inkululeko.โ Chaza ukuthi usho ukuthini.
SH: Ngingasho ukuthi ithemba ngendlela efanayo, ukungabi nathemba kungumqondo oyingozi kakhulu. Ngoba uma ungumuntu ongenathemba, khona-ke awunayo ngisho nesifiso sokuvuka, futhi uyazi, ukuze usebenze emphakathini. Ukuba nethemba kuyingozi futhi ngoba kuthembisa amathemba amanga. Futhi yingakho ngicabanga ukuthi sidinga ithemba, ngaphandle kokuba nethemba. Ngethemba, ngicabanga ukuthi ikhulunyaka lama-21 ngumqondo obaluleke kakhulu, ngingasho. Ngethemba ngomqondo wokuthi ngicabanga ukuthi abathuthukayo emhlabeni wonke kufanele bayeke ukugxeka ubunxiwankulu, ukwanda kwe-right-wing populism, authoritarianism, nokunye futhi akumele banikeze ithemba kuphela, kodwa nombono womphakathi lapho thina. ufuna ukuphila, uyazi, ukuya ngempela isiqondiso ukuze ucabange izinto ezingenakucatshangwa.
Ngokwesibonelo, ake ngikunikeze umbono ohlanya ngokuphelele ongenziwa kusasa ekuseni, uma bekunohulumeni womhlaba. Yebo, ngeke kwenziwe kusasa ekuseni ngoba ukuze sifinyelele uhlobo lohulumeni womhlaba, sidinga isikhathi esiningi. Bese kuba nombuzo ngoba ngine-anarchist edlule, noma ngabe ufuna uhulumeni noma cha, lokho akubalulekile. Kodwa ake sicabange ukuthi siphumelele ukudala uhlobo lwesistimu yokusabalalisa kabusha izindiza zamazwe ngamazwe ezingeni lomhlaba jikelele, ngoba siyazi ukuthi izindiza zamazwe ngamazwe zinomthelela emazingeni akhuphukayo e-CO2 kanye nenkinga yesimo sezulu. Ngakho-ke besingeke yini sicabange, ngokwesibonelo, noma sisebenze kulolu hlobo lohlelo ukuthi, uma ufuna ukundiza, ungakwazi ukundiza kabili ngonyaka, isibonelo? Ngiyazi ukuthi abantu abaningi abandizela e-Bilderberg kulezi zinsuku ngeke bajabule ngalokhu ikakhulukazi.
Kepha uma ungafuni ukundiza, ngokwesibonelo, ungacabanga uhlobo lwemakethe lapho ungathengisa khona indiza yakho komunye umuntu ofuna ukundiza. Nakuba ngingacabangi ukuthi imakethe iyisixazululo esihle sesiyibonile nokungcoliswa komoya, ngaleyo ndlela ungakwazi ukuyikhipha. Kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi kufanele sicabange, uyazi, i-Green New Deal, ngicabanga, inqobo nje uma isaphikisana no-capitalist kanye ne-post-capitalist iyindlela yokungacabangi nje kuphela, kodwa ukudala lolu hlobo lwekusasa ngethemba, wena. yazi, kungani besingeke sihambe kakhulu ngezitimela kunezimoto? Ngisho ukuthi, uma uya e-United States, njalo lapho ngiza e-United States, ngicindezeleka ngokushesha lapho ngisuka esikhumulweni sezindiza, lapho ngifika emgwaqeni omkhulu, futhi ngizobona izimoto eziningi ezinegazi. Futhi uma ubona lokho, kuyo yonke imoto kukhona umuntu oyedwa, niyazi, esikhundleni sabantu abane phakathi kuyo, isibonelo, noma esikhundleni sokuba nezitimela.
Lokhu - ukusho kanjani? Kuyicala ngobuhlakani bomuntu ukuthi sisazishayela zonke lezi zimoto, ngingasho, uyazi. Futhi ikusasa eliza ne-automation kanye nentuthuko yezobuchwepheshe empeleni, uyazi, ukuthi kwenzekani kubashayeli bamaloli e-United States, ukuthi izigidi ezi-3.5 zabo eminyakeni eyishumi noma emibili ezayo, bazolahlekelwa yimisebenzi. Angicabangi ukuthi isisombululo-ke siwukuthi, uyazi, ukubuyela kulolu hlobo lwe-capitalism eluhlaza noma into ethile, kodwa ukudala ngempela izindlela ezintsha zokuthutha, ezizoba ngesikhathi esifanayo zomphakathi hhayi ngasese.
Uyazi, ungase uhambe kuze kube manje ukusho ukuthi lokho u-Elon Musk akwenzayo noTesla ukuphoqa abanye abancintisana nabo emakethe ukuthi basebenzise lobu buchwepheshe futhi bangene ezimotweni zikagesi empeleni, kungase kube kuhle. Nakuba, ngingase ngigxeke u-Elon Musk ngezinto eziningi, eziningi, njengoba abantu abaningi benza. Kodwa kungase kube kuhle ngoba ungase ucabange, futhi yilokho u-Yanis Varoufakis anginika lowo mbono ngenkathi sikhuluma, ngeshwa, emotweni eJalimane, phakathi nomkhankaso wokhetho esasinawo emasontweni ambalwa edlule. Wabe esethi, kodwa cabanga ngekusasa lapho ngokuyisisekelo, uhulumeni angakwazi ukwenza zonke lezi zimoto zikagesi zibe ngaphansi kukahulumeni ezizobe zikhona eminyakeni emihlanu.
Ngiyazi ukuthi ukwenziwa kuzwelonke kanye nokudliwa komhlaba akuyona into ethandwayo, kodwa kungani singeke sicabange ngezithuthi zomphakathi ezihlanzekile ezingamaphesenti angu-100 okungezona ezakhe, niyazi, lolu hlobo lwesimo esiwubulima lapho abantu bebukeka njengalabo badlali emdlalweni. movie, Idiocracy, uyazi. Umuntu oyedwa, imoto eyodwa, amafutha ezinto ezimbiwa phansi, nokushayela nje, kungashayeli ngisho nokushayela. Ngisho ukuthi, uma ubheka imigwaqo yase-U.S., abantu abashayeli ngisho nokushayela. Bamile nje futhi behlezi, niyazi, kulezi zimoto eziwubuwula, futhi kufanele babe nemoto. Kungani kufanele babe nemoto? Hhayi-ke imfundiso yonxiwankulu ngoba kuwo wonke lamashumi eminyaka bebesiqinisekisa ukuthi uyindoda noma owesifazane ophumelelayo uma unemoto, uma unomuzi, uma ungumnikazi, uma uthenga, uthenga, uthenga, futhi usebenzisa. imikhiqizo efanayo shitty.
JS: Ngakho-ke, njengoba sazi uJulian Assange, omunye wabasunguli be-WikiLeaks, manje usejele laseBrithani. Siyaqonda ukuthi impilo yakhe iyawohloka. Wayiswa eBelmar Medical Ward. Ubhekene nezibalo zobunhloli ezingu-17 e-United States njengamanje. I-US ifuna abuyiselwe esikhundleni sakhe. Lokhu kusobala kakhulu impi ngokumelene nabo bonke abashicileli hhayi nje u-Assange. Futhi ngasikhathi sinye, u-Chelsea Manning usephinde wagqunywa ejele ngenxa yokwenqaba ukwenqaba ubufakazi ezinqubweni zejaji eziholele ekubekweni kwamacala amasha ngaphansi koMthetho Wobunhloli kaJulian Assange. Wena kanye no-Ai Weiwei nabanye abantu bamazwe ngamazwe benibhikishela, okokuqala, ukuboshwa kuka-Assange, manje ukuboshwa kuka-Assange kanye nokubhekana nalawa macala obunhloli. Kungani uthatha isikhathi empilweni yakho ukuze ubhikishele impatho ka-Julian Assange?
SH: Ngoba wathatha isikhathi empilweni yakhe ukuze asilwele. Futhi uma ngithi asilwele ukuthi silwele ukuthi kungenzeka sibe nolwazi. Ukuze ube nolwazi, lokho ohulumeni abanamandla kakhulu noma izinhlangano eziyimfihlo noma izinkampani ezikwenzayo emhlabeni, kusukela empini yase-Afghanistan kuya empini yase-Iraq. Ngeke yini kube kuhle ukuthi, ngokwesibonelo, manje ngakho konke lokhu kungezwani ne-Iran othile angavuza empeleni ukuthi iPentagon nokuthi yini iBolton nePompeo nawo wonke lawa maqhawe wesilisa amhlophe empeleni aceba ukulwa ne-Iran? Futhi okwenziwa yi-WikiLeaks ukuthi ngokokuqala ngqa emlandweni wanamuhla, idale uhlelo lapho ungakwazi ukuvikela labo abashaya amakhwela abanesibindi njengo-Edward Snowden, u-Chelsea Manning, nabanye ababezoshicilela lolu lwazi futhi lutholakale kithi sonke. . Impela kulo mhlaba wezindaba ezingamanga nama-memes kanye nalesi simo iqiniso elingasenandaba. Sengithole kakade ukuboshwa okungenasizathu eNxusa lase-Ecuadorian kuyihlazo elikhulu lentando yeningi yaseNtshonalanga.
Ngivakashele u-Julian kaningi eNxusa lase-Ecuador futhi indawo lapho uzongena khona eNxusa lase-Ecuadorian e-Knightsbridge e-London ikutshela konke okungalungile ngomhlaba wanamuhla. Uyazi, wayeboshwe iminyaka eyisikhombisa ngokungafanele endaweni encane kakhulu yenxusa lase-Ecuadorian. Ngaphambi kokungena ehhovisi lenxusa lase-Ecuador, uzobona lesi sikhungo sokuthenga sikanokusho esibizwa ngokuthi i-Harrods. Uzobona amaFerraris, amaLamborghini, ngaphambi nje kwenxusa lase-Ecuadorian namapuleti aseSaudi Arabia. Uzobona ukuthi, uyazi, ummemezeli wayeseneminyaka eyisikhombisa eboshiwe. Wathola ukukhoseliswa kwezombusazwe nguhulumeni wangaphambili onesibindi wase-Ecuador, ngokungafani nowamanje, othengisa uJulian ngemali mboleko nge-IMF nokunye. Futhi lokho bekuvele kuyihlazo. Okwenzekayo manje, ngicabanga ukuthi, kuyihlazo elikhulu nakakhulu ngoba intando yeningi emazweni aseNtshonalanga iyafa uma umuntu ofana noJulian Assange eboshiwe.
Futhi ngithole, uJeremy Hunt, asanda kukusho ngoJulian Assange ukuthi ubengaphuma noma nini lapho ngithola, ngiqonde ukuthi, ngithola uJeremy Hunt engunobhala wezangaphandle omubi kunabo bonke emlandweni wase-U.K. Hhayi nje ngoba wabiza iSlovenia ngokuthi izwe elingaphansi kwakhe, futhi ngokusobala akazi ngisho nokuma kwezwe noma umlando uma kuqhathaniswa nabaholi abanjengoChurchill, njalo njalo, ababenokuqonda okungenani igeography ne-geopolitics, kodwa futhi nokuma kwakhe ngoJulian Assange. Okubonayo okwenzeka namuhla ukuthi bonke laba hulumeni, i-Ecuador, manje ngisho ne-U.K., bahlangana noJohn Bolton, noPompeo, nezikhulu zaseMelika ezifuna uJulian Assange abuyiselwe e-United States ngokushesha okukhulu.
Futhi kungani lokhu kuyingozi? Uma lokho kwenzeka, ngicabanga ukuthi, ngisho ukukhuluma ngentando yeningi ngeke kuphinde kwenzeke ngoba ayikho intando yeningi ngaphandle kwenkululeko yokukhuluma. Ayikho intando yeningi ngaphandle kwesichibiyelo sokuqala e-U.S. Ayikho intando yeningi ngaphandle kwenkululeko yokunyathelisa. Futhi ayikho intando yeningi uma ungenalo ikhono lokuhlola ulwazi, ukuze ube nolwazi, okwenzekayo nsuku zonke, hhayi kuphela emazweni angaphandle, njenge-Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, kodwa ezweni lakini.
Kujule kangakanani ngokwesibonelo, iDemocratic Party yonakaliswe? Futhi esikhundleni sokuthi uBernie Sanders angenele ukhetho, bakhethe u-Hillary Clinton kanti u-Hillary Clinton wayehlekisa ngo-Trump ecabanga ukuthi u-Trump nguyena ohamba phambili ngoba akanalo ithuba. Ngiqonde ukuthi, lokhu kwembulwe yi-WikiLeaks, ingasaphathwa futhi ngezambulo mayelana nendima yezinkampani zomhlaba ezinamandla kakhulu i-Google okhethweni lwase-U.S., noma lokho ngokwesibonelo, iPalantir ekwenzayo manje ngamakamu okuvalela izingane, ngeke' kungaba kuhle ukuthi sibe nenhlangano engashicilela lonke lolu lwazi oseluyimfihlo?
Ngakho-ke, uma ukukhishwa kukaJulian Assange kwenzeka, ngicabanga ukuthi ngeke kusaba khona ukukhuluma ngentando yeningi. Abanye abantu abaningi, okuhlanganisa nezintatheli, bangase bagcine sebeboshiwe. Futhi lokhu akwenzeki eChina. Lokhu akwenzeki eRussia. Lokhu kwenzeka enkabeni yempucuko yaseYurophu, eLondon. Kwenzeka eYurophu. Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi leli yihlazo elikhulu lasekuqaleni kwekhulu lama-21. Lona kanye iqiniso lokuthi umuntu ongabulalanga muntu ugcinwe ejele elinababulali abaningi, namaphekula nabanye abantu amahora angu-23 esitokisini sakhe.
JS: Hhayi-ke, Srecko Horvat, ngifuna ukukubonga kakhulu ngawo wonke umsebenzi owenzile nosaqhubeka nokuwenza futhi ngiyabonga ngokuba nathi lapha ku-Intercepted.
SH: Ngiyabonga kakhulu futhi ngifuna ukubonga ngawo wonke umsebenzi owenziwa yi-Intercepted. Kubaluleke kakhulu. Hhayi e-United States kuphela kodwa nase-Europe ukuthi ibe nalolu hlobo lwemidiya esilukhumbula kakhulu kunangaphambili.
JS: USrecko Horvat uyisazi sefilosofi nembongi yaseCroatia ezweni elaliyiYugoslavia. Ungumbhali wencwadi ethi โIfunani IYurophu?: Inyunyana Nokunganeliseki kwayoโ kanye nethi, โSiyakwamukela Ogwadule Lwe-Post-Socialism,โ kanye โNe-Radicality of Love.โ Ngo-Yanis Varoufakis, ungomunye wabasunguli beDemocracy in Europe Movement. Incwadi yakhe yakamuva ithi โPoetry From the Future: Why A Global Liberation Movement is Our Civilizationโs Last Chance.โ
Futhi lokho kuyakwenzela lesi siqephu sebhonasi esikhethekile se-Intercepted. Ungasilandela ku-Twitter. Isibambo sethu sithi @intercepted. Uma uthanda esikwenzayo, sekela lo mbukiso ngokuya kokuthi theintercept.com/join futhi ube ilungu elisekelayo. I-Intercepted iwukukhiqizwa kwe-First Look Media kanye ne-Intercept. Umdidiyeli wethu ophambili nguJack DโIsidoro. Umdidiyeli wethu nguLaura Flynn. U-Elise Swain ungumkhiqizi esisebenzisana naye nomklami wezithombe. Umdidiyeli wethu omkhulu nguLeital Molad. U-Betsy Reed ungumhleli oyinhloko we-The Intercept. U-Rick Kwan uxube uhlelo. Ukulotshwa kwalolu hlelo kwenziwa ngu-Nuria Marquez Martinez. Umculo wethu, njengenjwayelo, uqanjwe ngu-DJ Spooky. Kuze kube ngokuzayo, nginguJeremy Scahill.
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