[EkaMhleli. Qaphela: Lona umbhalo wengxoxo phakathi kwamalungu e-Afghan Youth Peace Volunteers kanye no-Noam Chomsky, eyenzeka ngoSepthemba 21, 2011. Umbuzo ngamunye wabuzwa ngesi-Dari futhi wahunyushwa u-Hakim.]
U-Hakim: Sikhuluma sisezindaweni eziphakeme zase-Bamiyan emaphakathi ne-Afghanistan, futhi besifuna ukuqalisa ngokukubonga ngesiqondiso nokuhlakanipha oye wakunikeza ngokungaguquki ngokufundisa kwakho nezinkulumo zakho ezindaweni eziningi. Sifuna ukuqala ngombuzo ovela kuFaiz.
U-Faiz: Ngesikhathi esihlokweni ngu-Ahmed Rashid ku- New York Times kamuva nje, uthe “ngemuva kweminyaka eyi-10, kufanele kucace ukuthi impi kulesi sifunda ngeke inqotshwe ngamandla ezempi kuphela…. Abantu basePakistan bakudinga kakhulu ukulandisa okusha… kodwa buphi ubuholi bokuxoxa le ndaba njengoba kufanele ikhulunywe? Amasosha ayayeka ukucabanga kwawo kwakudala ngoba akekho onikeza enye indlela, futhi ngaphandle kokunye, akukho okuzothuthuka isikhathi eside. ” Ngabe ucabanga ukuthi bukhona ubuholi emhlabeni namuhla obungaphakamisa esinye isixazululo esingezona ezempi se-Afghanistan, futhi uma kungenjalo, lobu buholi besixazululo esingezona ezempi buzovelaphi noma kubani?
U-Noam Chomsky: Ngicabanga ukuthi kuqondwa kahle phakathi kobuholi bezempi kanye nobuholi bezepolitiki e-United States namadlelandawonye ayo, ukuthi ngeke bakwazi ukuzuza isisombululo sezempi sohlobo olufunayo. Lokhu ukubeka eceleni umbuzo wokuthi ngabe lowo mgomo wake wathethelelwa yini; manje, beka eceleni lokho. Ngokwemibandela yabo, bazi kahle ukuthi abakwazi ukuzuza isisombululo sezempi.
Ngabe likhona elinye ibutho lezepolitiki elingasebenzela uhlobo oluthile lokuxazululwa kwezepolitiki? Uyazi, ukuthi empeleni amandla amakhulu angasebenza ekufezeni leyo nhloso umbono ovamile. Umphakathi usuvele uphikisana kakhulu nempi futhi sekuyisikhathi eside, kodwa lokho akuzange kuzihumushe kunhlangano esebenzayo, ezinikele, ezinikele ethandwayo efuna ukushintsha inqubomgomo. Futhi yilokho okufanele kwenziwe lapha.
Owami umuzwa wokuthi umphumela obaluleke kakhulu wemizamo ebaluleke kakhulu yokuthula eqhubekayo ngaphakathi kwe-Afghanistan kungenzeka kube ukugqugquzela ukunyakaza okudumile eNtshonalanga ngokusebenzisa abantu nje ukuxhumana nabantu, okungasiza ukufaka ingcindezi e-United States, ikakhulukazi iBrithani. , ukuqeda isigaba sezempi salokhu kungqubuzana futhi siqhubekele kulokho okufanele kwenziwe: ukuxazululwa ngokuthula nokuthuthukiswa komnotho okuthembekile, okunengqondo.
Abdulai: UDkt. Ramazon Bashardost utshele i-Afghan Youth Peace Volunteers kanye ukuthi abantu base-Afghanistan abanakho ukukhetha ngoba zonke izinketho ezitholakalayo e-Afghanistan zimbi. Ngakho-ke, ama-Afghan awanakho ukukhetha ngaphandle kokukhetha okubi kakhulu kwezinketho ezimbi. Kulesi simo, abanye abantu base-Afghan, futhi ikakhulukazi abaningi eKabul, banomuzwa wokuthi inketho embi kakhulu ukuthi amabutho omfelandawonye aseMelika ahlale e-Afghanistan. Ngabe ucabanga ukuthi ukuqhubeka nokuba khona kwamasosha ase-US e-Afghanistan kuyindlela embi kakhulu? Uma kungenjalo, yiziphi izinketho ezinhle ngempela kubantu base-Afghan abavamile?
U-Noam Chomsky: Ngiyavuma ukuthi akubonakali kunezinketho ezinhle, futhi ngakho-ke ngokudabukisayo kufanele sizame ukuthola izinketho ezimbi kakhulu. Manje, leso sahlulelo kufanele senziwe ama-Afghan. Usesigcawini. Ningabantu abaphila nemiphumela. Ningabantu abanelungelo nesibopho sokwenza lezi zinqumo ezithambile nezingeyinhle. Nginombono wami, kodwa awuthwali isisindo. Okubalulekile imibono yakho.
Umbono wami ukuthi inqobo nje uma amabutho ezempi esekhona, manje, cishe azokwandisa ukungezwani futhi acekele phansi amathuba okuxazulula isikhathi eside. Ngicabanga ukuthi lokho kube irekhodi leminyaka eyi-10 edlule kakhulu, futhi lelo yirekhodi nakwezinye izindawo-e-Iraq, isibonelo. Ngakho-ke, umuzwa wami ukuthi ukuhoxiswa ngezigaba kwalolu hlobo empeleni okucatshangwayo kungase kube kubi kakhulu kwezinketho ezimbi, kodwa kuhlanganiswe neminye imizamo. Akwanele nje ukuhoxisa amasosha. Kufanele kube khona okunye okungenziwa. Esinye sazo, isibonelo, esiye satuswa kaningi, ukubambisana kwesifunda phakathi kwamandla esifunda. Lokho kuzobandakanya iPakistan, i-Iran, i-India, amazwe asenyakatho, wonke lawo, kanye nabamele i-Afghan phakathi kwawo, angakwazi ukusungula uhlelo lwentuthuko olungaba nenjongo futhi babambisane ekulwenzeni, aguqule ukugxila. yemisebenzi kusukela ekubulaleni kuya ekwakhiweni kabusha nokwakha. Kepha umnyombo wezinkinga kuzofanele uxazululwe ngaphakathi e-Afghanistan.
U-Mohammad Hussein: Kumenyezelwe ukuthi amasosha angaphandle azohamba e-Afghanistan ngo-2014, futhi adlulisele umthwalo wezokuphepha kubantu base-Afghan. Nokho, esinakho phambi kwethu kubonakala kuyisimo esikhohlisayo nesikhohlakele kakhulu sikahulumeni waseU.S. ukusayina isivumelwano se-Strategic Partnership nohulumeni wase-Afghan ukuze abeke izizinda zezempi ezihlangene ngokugcwele e-Afghanistan ngale kuka-2024. Kuzwakala sengathi, kumaVolontiya eNtsha Yokuthula Yase-Afghan, ukuthi ukuhoxa ngo-2014 ngakho-ke akubalulekile ngenxa yezinhlelo ezinkulu zesikhathi eside zokugcina amabutho e-Afghanistan. Ungakwazi ukuphawula ngalokhu?
U-Noam Chomsky: Ngiqinisekile ukuthi lokho engikulindele kulungile. Kuncane ukungabaza ukuthi uhulumeni wase-US uhlose ukugcina ukulawula okusebenzayo kwezempi phezu kwe-Afghanistan ngandlela thize, noma ngokusebenzisa izwe lamakhasimende elinezisekelo zamasosha, nokusekelwa kwalokho abazokubiza ngokuthi ngamasosha ase-Afghan. Leyo yiphethini nakwezinye izindawo. Ngakho-ke, ngokwesibonelo, ngemva kokuqhunyiswa kwamabhomu eSerbia ngo-1999, i-United States igcina isikhungo esikhulu samasosha eKosovo, okwakuwumgomo wokuqhuma kwamabhomu. E-Iraq, basakha izisekelo zamasosha yize kunezinkulumo zokushiya izwe. Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi bazokwenza okufanayo nase-Afghanistan, okubhekwa yi-US njengokubaluleka kwamasu esikhathini eside, ngaphakathi kwezinhlelo zokugcina ukulawula kwemithombo yamandla kanye nezinye izinsiza zesifunda, kuhlanganise nentshonalanga ne-Asia Ephakathi. . Ngakho-ke lolu lucezu lwezinhlelo eziqhubekayo empeleni ezibuyela emuva eMpini Yezwe Yesibili.
Njengamanje, i-United States ibambe iqhaza kwezempi ngendlela eyodwa noma enye emazweni acishe abe yikhulu, okubandakanya izisekelo, ukusebenza kwamabutho akhethekile, ukusekelwa kwamasosha asekhaya kanye nezokuphepha. Lolu wuhlelo lomhlaba wonke lokulwa kwezempi emhlabeni, olubuyela emuva endlunkulu eWashington, futhi i-Afghanistan iyingxenye yalo. Kuyoba kubantu base-Afghan ukubona ukuthi, okokuqala, uma befuna lokhu; okwesibili, uma bengenza ngezindlela ezizoyivalela ngaphandle. Lokho kuhle kakhulu okwenzeka e-Iraq. Ngasekupheleni kuka-2008, i-United States yayigcizelela ngokusemthethweni ukuthi igcine izizinda zamasosha futhi ikwazi ukwenza imisebenzi yokulwa e-Iraq, nokuthi uhulumeni wase-Iraqi kumele anikeze ithuba abatshalizimali base-US ngohlelo lukawoyela namandla. Hhayi-ke, ukumelana ne-Iraqi kuphoqe i-United States ukuthi ihoxe ngandlela thize kulokho, empeleni, empeleni. Kodwa imizamo isazoqhubeka. Lezi izingxabano eziqhubekayo ezisekelwe ezimisweni ezihlala isikhathi eside. Noma iyiphi impumelelo yangempela ekuqhubekeleni phambili ekususweni kwezempi nokwakhiwa kabusha kobudlelwano kuyodingeka idinge ngokuyinhloko ukuzibophezela kwama-Afghan, kodwa, futhi, nemizamo yokubambisana yamaqembu athandwayo emibuso yaseNtshonalanga yokucindezela ohulumeni bawo.
U-Faiz: Ngemuva kwamashumi amathathu eminyaka empi kanye nokuba sekugcineni kokugxambukela kwezempi kwesifunda nasemhlabeni e-Afghanistan, abantu bazizwa belahlekile futhi bengenathemba. Abantu balahlekelwa ngisho nethemba futhi abaqiniseki ngokuthi iZizwe Ezihlangene, ezigunyazwe wukuqeda ubhubhane lwempi kuzo zonke izizukulwane, zingakwazi ukunikeza elinye ikhambi. Sixoxile namaqembu okuthula mayelana nokwenzeka kweribhoni eluhlaza okwesibhakabhaka noma ithimba eliyisikhafu esiluhlaza okwesibhakabhaka labantu ngabanye, mhlawumbe kuhlanganise nabakwaNobel Laureates, abangakhuluma futhi benze isitatimende mayelana nesimo esibi sobuntu e-Afghanistan, futhi mhlawumbe bavule inkulumo-mpikiswano emhlabeni. mayelana nezinye izindlela zabantu base-Afghan abajwayelekile abalahlekelwa yithemba. Ingabe ucabanga ukuthi akhona amathuba okuthi iZizwe Ezihlangene zingenele ukuze zinikeze indaba ehlukile kulezi zimo ezinzima? Futhi ingabe likhona ithuba leqembu elizimele elenza ukuthula eliluhlaza labakhi bokuthula abanganikeza indlela yokuphuma?
U-Noam Chomsky: Umuntu kufanele akhumbule ukuthi i-United Nations ayikwazi ukuzimela. Ingenza kuphela lokho imibuso emikhulu engayivumela—okusho ukuthi ngokuyinhloko i-United States, iBrithani, neFrance, empeleni, Amalungu Ahlala Phakade OMkhandlu Wezokuphepha—okubekela imingcele lokho iZizwe Ezihlangene ezingakwenza. Ingasebenza ngaphakathi kwemikhawulo abayibekayo, futhi i-United States iyona enethonya elikhulu kakhulu.
Ngakho-ke, ukunikeza inkomba eyodwa yalokho, bheka irekhodi lama-veto eMkhandlwini Wezokuphepha. Ezinsukwini zokuqala zeZizwe Ezihlangene, kusukela ngasekupheleni kwawo-1940, umbuso wase-U.S. wawunamandla kakhulu emhlabeni kangangokuthi iZizwe Ezihlangene zaziyithuluzi le-United States ngokuyisisekelo. Njengoba eminye imibuso yezimboni ilulama empini nokuqothulwa kwamakoloni kwaqala, iNhlangano Yezizwe Ezihlangene yamelela abantu bomhlaba. Kwaba ngaphansi kokulawulwa yi-United States futhi i-US yaqala ukuvota izinqumo. I-veto yokuqala yase-US yayingo-1965, futhi kusukela ngaleso sikhathi, i-United States ihamba phambili ezinqumweni zoMkhandlu Wezokuphepha, ezivimbela isenzo. Manje, iBrithani ingeyesibili, futhi akekho omunye oseduze. Futhi lokho kuyaqhubeka manje. Cishe kuzoba nenye i-veto yase-US ngesonto elizayo. Yilokho ngokujwayelekile. Uma i-United States yenqaba ukuvumela okuthile ukuba kwenzeke, iZizwe Ezihlangene azikwazi ukwenza lutho. Amanye amandla amakhulu nawo anethonya elithile, kodwa elincane. Ngakho-ke, umbuzo wangempela uwukuthi, ingabe i-United States neBrithani bazovuma ukuvumela izenzo zohlobo oluchazwe embuzweni. Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi lokho kungenzeka, kodwa futhi, sibuyele lapho sasikhona ngaphambili.
U-Abdulai: Egameni lentsha yase-Afghan e-Bamiyan, kanye nalabo abalalele base-Kabul, siyabonga ngesikhathi sakho nathi. Sikufisela okuhle kodwa nempilo enhle.
U-Noam Chomsky: Ngiyabonga kakhulu ngokunginika ithuba lokukhuluma nawe kafushane. Kuyilungelo langempela, futhi ngiwuncoma kakhulu umsebenzi omuhle eniwenzayo.
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