Sisanda kuxoxisana noNoam Chomsky, i-Institute Professor Emeritus e-Massachusetts Institute of Technology kanye noSolwazi Ophumelele Emnyangweni WezoLimi eNyuvesi yase-Arizona. Wabelana ngemicabango yakhe ne-Institute for New Economic Thinking mayelana nenqubomgomo yangaphandle, abaphikisa enkathini ye-inthanethi, imfundo yomphakathi, ukudlwengulwa kwezinkampani, oxabanisa ukhetho lwaseMelika ngempela, ukuguquka kwesimo sezulu, nokuningi.
ULynn Parramore: Ubulokhu ubheka ezombusazwe kanye nobudlelwano bamazwe ngamazwe isikhathi eside. Emashumini eminyaka adlule, yiziphi ukuqhubeka kulezi zindawo ezigqamayo ngokubona kwakho?
UNoam Chomsky: Yebo, ukuqhubeka kuyisigijimi sabase-Athene kuMelos: โabanamandla benza abakuthandayo nababuthakathaka bahlupheka ngalokho abafaneleโ [kusuka kuThucydides' Umlando Wempi yePeloponnesia.โ] Ivamise ukufihlwa ngendlela yobuntu. Izindlela kanye nengqikithi iyashintsha. Izimo ziyashintsha kodwa umyalezo awushintshi.
LP: Yiziphi ozibona njengezinguquko ezibalulekile?
NC: Kunezinyathelo ezithile zokubeka izithiyo nemingcele kudlame lombuso. Ngokwengxenye enkulu, bavela ngaphakathi. Ngakho-ke ngokwesibonelo, uma ubheka i-United States kanye nezinhlobo zezenzo uJohn F. Kennedy noLyndon Johnson ababengazenza eVietnam, zazingenzeka ngenxa yokushoda kwabantu ngokuphelele.
Angazi noma uyazi yini, kodwa ngasekupheleni kuka-1966 eBoston sasingeke sibe nesenzo sokulwa nempi ngoba yayizohlakazwa ngobudlova ngokusekelwa kwabezindaba nokunye. Ngaleso sikhathi, iNingizimu Vietnam yayisicekeleke phansi. Impi yayisinabele nakwezinye izindawo zase-Indochina. Abaphathi beReagan, ekuqaleni, bazama ukuphinda lokho uKennedy ayekwenzile ngo-1961 mayelana neMelika Ephakathi. Ngakho-ke babe nephepha elimhlophe elifana nephepha elimhlophe likaKennedy elalithi amaKhomanisi athatha izintambo. Kwakuyizinyathelo ezivamile, inkulumo-ze, kodwa yawa ngokushesha. Endabeni yephepha elimhlophe likaKennedy, kwathatha iminyaka ngaphambi kokuba lidalulwe njengeliyinkohliso, kodwa Wall Street Journal, kuzo zonke izindawo, yadalula iphepha elimhlophe le-Reagan ezinyangeni eziyisithupha. Kube nemibhikisho yamaqembu esonto nezinhlangano ezidumile futhi kwadingeka ukuthi bahlehle. Okwenzekile kwakubi ngokwenele kodwa kwakungefani ne-Indochina.
I-Iraq bekungokokuqala emlandweni we-imperialism ukuthi kube nemibhikisho emikhulu ngaphambi kokuthi impi yethulwe ngokusemthethweni. Kuthiwa abantu behlulekile, kodwa angicabangi kanjalo. Ngisho ukuthi abakaze baqale ukwenza izinto ababengazenza. Akubangakho ukuhlasela kwe-B-52 ezindaweni ezinabantu abaningi noma impi yamakhemikhali yohlobo abalwenzile e-Indochina. Ngokuvamile izithiyo zivela ngaphakathi, futhi babekuqonda lokho. Ngesikhathi ufika kubaphathi bokuqala bakaBush, ngemuva kokuwa kweSoviet Union, baphuma nenqubomgomo yezokuvikela kazwelonke kanye nenqubomgomo yamasu. Abakusho ngokuyisisekelo ukuthi sizoba nezimpi ngokumelene nalokho abakubiza ngokuthi izitha ezibuthakathaka kakhulu futhi lezi kufanele zenziwe ngokushesha nangokucacile noma kuzoba nokuphoxekaโindlela yokusho ukuthi ukusabela okuthandwayo kuzoqala. Futhi kube yileyondlela. Akukuhle, kodwa kuwuhlobo oluthile lokuvinjelwa.
Ziya ngokuya ziba nezimo emthethweni wamazwe ngamazwe, njengeSivumelwano SaseRome [isivumelwano sango-1957 esasungula i-European Economic Community] nokunye, kodwa amandla amakhulu avele azishaye indiva uma engase ahlukane nakho, futhi ukubalekela lokho kusho ukungazinaki izithiyo. yezinye izifundazwe, okuthi, uma kuthiwa, i-US, azibi kangako. Noma izithiyo zangaphakathi zezinguquko ngaphakathi emphakathini, ezibeke ezimweni ezibaluleke kakhulu, ngicabanga.
Kucishe kube yinto engacabangeki manje ukuthi i-US ingakwazi ukwenza uhlobo lwempi eyalwenza e-Indochina, nokuyinto eqashelwa ngombono we-elite. Isibonelo esijwayelekile esikaMark Bowden i-op-ed ku New York Times ngolunye usuku mayelana no[Walter] Cronkite nokuthi washintsha kanjani yonke into. Awu, uCronkite utheni? Uthe, akubukeki sengathi sizowina. Yilokho ukugxekwa kwempi. Yileyo ndlela okwakucatshangwa ngayo ngaleso sikhathi, futhi yileyondlela okusabhekwa ngayo yizicukuthwane ezihlakaniphile. Kodwa uma ubheka umbono womphakathiโokungaphenywa kakhulu ngakho-ke akucaci kahle ukuthi kusho ukuthini, kodwa kuyathakazelisaโuMkhandlu waseChicago on Global Affairs wawuqhuba ukuvota kuzo zonke izinhlobo zezinkinga ngeminyaka yama-70s kanye nama-80s, futhi lapho kuphela iMpi YaseVietnam ngo-1975, cishe amaphesenti angu-70 omphakathi achaza impi njengengalungile ngokuyisisekelo nokuziphatha okubi, hhayi iphutha. Lokho kwahlala kuqinile iminyaka eminingana baze bayeka ukubuza umbuzo. Umqondisi wocwaningo, uJohn Rielly, uhumushe ngokuthi kusho ukuthi baningi kakhulu abaseMelika ababulawayo. Kungenzeka. Kukhona enye incazelo engenzeka yokuthi "okungalungile nokuziphatha okubi ngokuyisisekelo," okungukuthi i-US yayenze ubugebengu obubhekiswe esintwini. Kodwa akuzange kuphenywe ngoba kuningi kakhulu ukuphambana kwengqondo. Ongqondongqondo be-Elite abakwazi ukubona lokho kungenzeka.
Wonke umuntu waba nokuphawula lapho impi iphela, ngakho-ke oklebe bathi, โgwaza emhlaneโ [okungukuthi abagxeki abavamile babukela phansi amasosha] futhi โukube besilwa kakhulu besiyonqoba.โ Amajuba ahamba njengo-Anthony Lewis we New York Times, okungenzeka ukuthi wayedlulele kakhulu. Ngo-1975 lapho impi iphela, wathi impi yaqala ngokuphambanisa imizamo yokwenza okuhle. โImizamo yokwenza okuhleโ iyi-tautology ebonakalayo, amaqiniso awanamsebenzi; futhi โukuphaphazaโ kusho ukuthi yehlulekile. Uthe ngo-1969 kwacaca ukuthi kwakuyinhlekelele ngoba i-US yayingakwazi ukuletha intando yeningi eVietnam ngezindleko ezamukelekayo kithi. Yilokho ukugxeka okukude kwesokunxele kwempi ngo-1975. Futhi uBowden, obhala embonweni obucayi, ngokuyisisekelo waliphinda lelo phuzu ezinsukwini ezimbalwa ezedlule: Umnikelo omkhulu kaCronkite wawuwukuthi, "bheka, kubukeka sengathi singakwazi." t ukunqoba, futhi uma singeke sikwazi ukunqobaโฆโ Ngisho, ojenene baseRussia basho okufanayo e-Afghanistan. Asibahloniphi ngalokho.
LP: Ngesikhathi ukhuluma ngemibhikisho Ukuqonda Amandla ngaphambi kwenkathi yedijithali, ushilo ukuthi bekunzima kwabaphikisayo nababhikishi ukuthi baxhumane. I-inthanethi ikushintshe kanjani lokho? Ababhikishi ngokusobala bagadiwe uma beku-inthanethi, kodwa bayakwazi ukuxhumana ngokushesha. Ingabe kuye kwaba nenzuzo enkulu kulabo abafuna ukumelana nezimpi nokucindezelwa? Noma ingabe lokhu kuwubuqili?
NC: Ungakhumbula, ngesikhathi kunemibhikisho yaseTahrir Square eCairo, eyayihlelwa ngezinkundla zokuxhumana, ngesinye isikhathi u-Hosni] Mubarak wayivala ngempela i-inthanethi. Lokho yanda ukugqugquzela. Abantu bavele bakhulume bodwa. Kuwuhlobo oluhlukile lokuxhumana. Kusho okuningi okwengeziwe. Ngakho-ke ngicabanga ukuthi, yebo, izinkundla zokuxhumana zinikeza amathuba okuhlelwa okusheshayo nokudluliselwa, kodwa ngokuvamile ezingeni eliphezulu kakhulu. Ukuhlela ubuso nobuso kuyinto ehluke kakhulu. Kwenzeka okufanayo nakupolitiki yokhetho. U-Andrew Cockburn ube nokuthakaselayo esihlokweni in Harper sika phakathi nomkhankaso [ka-2016] lapho aqhathanisa khona izifundo ngomthelela kwabangase babe ngabavoti bokukhangisa, niyazi, i-TV, kanye nomthelela wokungqongqoza eminyango nokukhuluma nabantu. Kwakumangalisa ukuthi leyakamuva yayisebenza kangcono. Sisengabantu.
LP: Izinkampani ezifana ne-Google ne-Facebook ziya ngokuya zilawula ulwazi esingalufinyelela. Baze bafakwa ohlwini lokuhlola izindaba, ukuze bakhiphe izindaba ezingamanga, nakuba kunobufakazi bokuthi bangase baqede ukungezwani okusemthethweni. Nokho bavame ukushayelwa ihlombe sengathi benza inkonzo. Lokhu kuyithinta kanjani inkululeko yethu?
NC: Yinkonzo ngesizathu esibi. Abantu abasha abafundi kakhulu, ngakho bafuna okuthile okusheshayo, okusheshayo, okulula. Uhamba ngephephandaba, kuthatha isikhathi. Kufanele ubone ukuthi yini ekugcineni kwekholomu, hhayi nje okusesihlokweni. Ngakho lolu hlobo lwesiko lokuzanelisa ngokushesha ludonsela abantu kulezi zifinyezo ezisheshayo. Cishe wonke umuntu uku-Facebook (ngaphandle kwami).
Enye into abayenzayo ethokozisayo ihlobene ne-microtargeting, esetshenziselwa ukukhohlisa okhethweni. Kunezimo ezithile, ezingakaxoxiswanga ngokwazi kwami โโngaphandle kwabezindaba zebhizinisi. Okhethweni olwedlule lwaseJalimane, kwaba nezinkulumo eziningi zokugxambukela kweRussia, niyazi, kuzolusukumisa ukhetho. Nokho, kwavela ukuthi kwakukhona ukuphazamiseka kwamanye amazwe, kodwa kwakungesona isiRashiya. Kwakuyinhlanganisela yehhovisi laseBerlin le-Facebook kanye nenkampani yabezindaba e-US, esebenzela uTrump, Le Pen, Netanyahu, abanye abafana abahle. Basebenzise i-Facebook e-Berlin ukuze bathole ukuhlaziywa kwezibalo zezingxenye zabantu ukuze zibavumele ukuthi bafinyelele izikhangiso ezincane kubantu ngabanye abavuna i-AfD, iqembu le-neo-Nazi, okungenzeka ukuthi kwaba nomthelela evotini labo eliphezulu ngokungalindelekile okhethweni. Lokhu kubikwe ku IBloomberg BusinessWeek. Lokhu bekuwudaba lwangempela lokuxhashazwa okhethweni kodwa ngandlela thize alizibambi ezindabeni.
LP: Okusiletha ekulandiseni kwethonya laseRussia okhethweni lukamongameli lwango-2016. Ngiyaqonda ukuthi awuhlabeke umxhwele kakhulu ngalo mugqa.
NC: Kunzima kakhulu ukuthathela phezulu ngenxa yezizathu eziningi. Esinye isizathu umsebenzi kaThomas Ferguson nozakwabo [โImali Yanqoba Kanjani I-Trump House Whiteโ]. Kukhona ngempela ukuxhashazwa kokhetho, kodwa akuveli kwabaseRussia. Iphuma kubantu abathenga ukhetho. Thatha isifundo sakhe ngokhetho lwango-2016 [โIsakhiwo Sezimboni kanye Nokuncintisana Kweqembu Esikhathini Semidlalo Yendlala: U-Donald Trump kanye Nokhetho Lukamongameli lwango-2016โ]. Yilokho ugxambukela kanjani okhethweni. Noma ucwaningo oluhle olumangalisayo yena nozakwabo abalwenza cishe unyaka owedlule kuCongress "Imali Iluqhuba Kanjani Ukhetho LweCongress of US,โ lapho uthola khona umugqa oqondile [ukuxhumana phakathi kwemali namavoti eqembu elikhulu kuCongress]. Awuvamisile ukubona imiphumela efana naleyo kusayensi yezenhlalo. Lokho ukukhohlisa okukhulu. Uma kuqhathaniswa nalokho, lokho abaseRussia okungenzeka bayakwenza kuyinto encane. Ngaphandle nje kokuthi i-US ikwenza ngaso sonke isikhathi kwamanye amazwe.
LP: Kuyacaca kuma-imeyili aputshuziwe ukuthi iDemocratic National Committee yagxambukela noBernie Sanders ekufuneni kwakhe ukuqokwa kwesobumengameli ngo-2016 ngokuvuna u-Hillary Clinton lapho kwakufanele kungachemi kubo bonke abangenele ukhetho. Ucabanga ukuthi kungadingekani kumuntu othanda izinguquko, umuntu othanda abantu bangempela, ukuze anqobe ubumongameli?
NC: Okungadingeka empeleni yinhlangano edumile kanye nezishoshovu. Ngawo wonke amaphutha ayo, i-US iseyizwe elihle elikhululekile. Kulokhu, abaphathi beDemocratic Party bekumele benze amaqili ukuze abakwaSanders baphumelele ukuqokwa. Umkhankaso wakhe, ngicabanga, wawumangalisa ngempela. Angikwazanga ukubikezela into efana nayo. Ikhefu elinomlando wezepolitiki waseMelika ongaphezu kwekhulu. Akukho ukusekelwa kwezinkampani, akukho ingcebo yezezimali, wayengaziwa, akukho ukusekelwa kwabezindaba. Abezindaba bavele bamshaya indiva noma bamehlisa isithunzi. Futhi usondele kakhuluโmhlawumbe ubengawina ukuqokwa, mhlawumbe ukhetho. Kodwa ake sithi wayekhethiwe? Wayengeke enze lutho. Akukho muntu kuKhongolose, akukho babusi, akukho zishayamthetho, awekho amandla amakhulu ezomnotho, anomthelela omkhulu kunqubomgomo. Bonke baphikisana naye. Ukuze enze noma yini, kwakuzodingeka abe nemishini yephathi esebenzayo, okwakuzodingeka ikhule isuka ezimpandeni zotshani. Kuzodingeka ukuthi ihlelwe endaweni, kufanele isebenze emazingeni endawo, emazingeni kahulumeni, iCongress, i-bureaucracy-kufanele wakhe uhlelo lonke kusukela phansi.
Kuyathakazelisa manje, nginesiqiniseko sokuthi uke wabona amavoti lapho kuvele khona ukuthi udume kakhulu kwezepolitiki. Nokho, embusweni wentando yeningi osebenzayo, umuntu odume kakhulu kwezombusazwe kufanele avele ndawana thize. Kodwa akukho akwenzayo okubikwayo. Kuyenzeka, kunemiphumela, kodwa ngokombono wemithombo yezindaba ekhululekile, sengathi ayikho.
LP: Kuthiwani ngezehlakalo zakamuva eCalifornia lapho uSenator uDianne Feinstein, owamangala kakhulu ngokuhluleka ukuzuza ukugunyazwa kweqembu leDemocratic Party ihlandla lesithupha? Ingabe lokhu kufana nesenzakalo sakwaSanders, lapho abantu abafuna izinto eziyisisekelo njengokunakekelwa kwezempilo kwendawo yonke kanye nokuvikelwa kwabasebenzi benza lokho abakuthandayo ngokwenqaba ukusekela amakhandidethi angaphenduli?
NC: Wavotelwa phansi, futhi njengomkhankaso wakwaSanders noma [uJeremy] Corbyn eNgilandi, kukhona isisekelo, futhi uma kungase kuguqulwe kube into eqinile futhi enesisekelo esibucayi, kungasho lukhulu. Ngokwesiko, lokhu bekulokhu kwakhiwe phezu kwenhlangano yabasebenzi, yingakho imboni yezinkampani izinikele kakhulu ekucekeleni phansi izinyunyana. Liyaphuma ecaleni likaJanus, elaqulwa ngelinye ilanga, okungenzeka ukuthi lizovotelwa livune uJanus, nokuyinto ezoba yingozi ezinyunyana zikahulumeni. [UMark Janus ungummangali ecaleni leNkantolo Ephakeme yase-US UJanus v. AFSCME okubandakanya udaba lokuthi abasebenzi bakahulumeni abamelwe yinyunyana kumele bakhokhe yini izindleko zokuxoxisana ngokuhlanganyela kanye nokuxazulula izikhalo].
Yonke imboni ezimele yaseMelika inentshisekelo yokucekela phansi inhlangano yezinyunyana. Sekunesikhathi eside kwenzeka lokhu, kodwa manje sebecabanga ukuthi bangakwazi ukukuklinya ngoba yiwona mgogodla wobushoshovu cishe noma yini. Bheka, ake sithi, ukunakekelwa kwezempilo. ECanada, ngeminyaka yawo-50s, kwakuyizinyunyana ezazicindezela kanzima ekunakekelweni kwezempilo kuzwelonke, futhi okujabulisayo, e-US izinyunyana ezifanayo zazicindezela zona ngokwazo, izisebenzi zezimoto eDetroit. Lawa amazwe amabili afanayo, kodwa ngalo mehluko omangalisayo emiphumeleni yokunakekelwa kwezempilo.
Icala elithakazelisa kakhulu i-England. Kukhona okuhle kakhulu esihlokweni esanda kuphuma kumagazini wakamuva we Jacobin, eqhubeka emlandweni wokunakekelwa kwezempilo kwaseBrithani futhi kuyathakazelisa impela. Kwaqala, eNgilandi ngaphansi kukaBevan ngasekupheleni kwawo-40s. Bathola okwakuwuhlelo lokunakekelwa kwezempilo olungcono kakhulu emhlabeniโkusenjalo, mhlawumbe, futhi kwakunjalo ngaleso sikhathi. Kwaqala ngabasebenzi basezimayini eWales abazakhele olwabo uhlelo lwezempilo lokubambisana ngezinga elincane. U-Aneurin Bevan wayengumsebenzi wasemayini waseWales. Uhlelo lokusebenzisana lwathathwa yiLabour Party njengohlelo futhi iLabour Party yawina ukhetho ngo-1945 futhi u-Bevan wayiphusha futhi bathola Isevisi Yezempilo Kazwelonke.
Nokho, kunamaphuzu amabili abalulekile e-US Yizinyunyana. Yingakho kumele ubhidlize izinyunyana. Ucekela phansi ubumbano. Kuyisizathu esifanayo sokuhlaselwa kwezikole zikahulumeni, ukuhlaselwa kwezokuphepha komphakathi. Konke lokhu kusekelwe embonweni wokuthi ngandlela-thile uyabakhathalela abanye, umphakathi, njalonjalo, futhi lokho akwamukeleki neze esikweni lapho ufuna ukuzama ukugxilisa ingcebo namandla. Awufuni abantu babe nento abangayenza ngaphandle kokuzama ukuzuza noma yini abangakwazi ukuyenza. Uma kunjalo, bayoba buthakathaka kakhulu, kunjalo. Kulapho nihlela ndawonye kuphela lapho ningabhekana khona nezimali ezizimele.
Okwesibili, kwakukhona iqembu lezombusazwe. Uhlelo lwezepolitiki lwaseMelika cishe ngeke lwamukelwe yiNkantolo Yezobulungiswa YaseYurophu njengohlelo olusemthethweni. Ayikho indlela yokuthi amaqembu azimele angene ohlelweni. I-Labour Party eNgilandi yaqala njengeqembu elincane kakhulu. Kodwa ngenxa yokuthi lolu hlelo luvumelaโnjengoba amazwe amaningi entando yeningi enzaโamaqembu amancane asebenze, akwazile ukuthuthuka asebenze ngaphakathi ePhalamende andise futhi athole osopolitiki nohulumeni agcina eseyiqembu elikhulu. Lokho cishe akunakwenzeka e-US Uma ubheka ivoti e-US, lithi Democrat, Republican, Other. Akekho ongagqekeza. Ukubusa kwezombusazwe. Yizinto ezimbili ezingewona ngempela amaqembu epolitiki. Awukwazi ngempela ukuba yilungu leDemocratic Party, awukwazi ukubamba iqhaza ekuklameni izinhlelo zayo. Ungaba yilungu le-Labour Party. Lona umehluko omkhulu, ngakho-ke ngicabanga ukuthi izinkinga ezimbili ezinkulu e-US ukushiyeka kwesistimu yezombangazwe, okubonisa uhlobo lwezinto uTom Ferguson nozakwabo abazifundayo-uyazi, amandla amakhulu omcebo ogxilile ekunqumeni imiphumela yokhetho bese kuba yizinqubomgomo ngemuva kwalokho. Lokho kukodwa, kanti okunye ukucekelwa phansi kwenhlangano yabasebenzi.
LP: Ake sikhulume ngokuhlaselwa kwezikole zikahulumeni, uGordon Lafer akushilo encwadini yakhe, Isixazululo Sephesenti elilodwa.
NC: Yebo, incwadi ejabulisa kakhulu.
I-LP: Uxoxa ngemizamo ye-ALEC namanye amaqembu asekelwa yizinkampani yokuhlakaza imfundo yomphakathi, ukuze kuphasiswe umthetho ozothatha indawo yothisha ngemfundo ye-inthanethi, ukwandisa osayizi bamakilasi, esikhundleni sezikole zomphakathi ngamashadi axhaswe ngasese, njalonjalo. Ukhulume ngomlando wemfundo yabantu abaningi. Uyibona kanjani le ajenda yebhizinisi yezikole zaseMelika?
NC: Uyazi, imfundo yomphakathi ngobuningi, nawo wonke amaphutha ayo, enye yamagalelo angempela kuntando yeningi yaseMelika. Bekuphambili kakhulu kunamanye amazwe kuze kube sekupheleni, okuhlanganisa nezinga lamakolishi anamakolishi ezibonelelo zomhlaba nokunye. IYurophu isanda kuqala ukufanisa lokho ngemva kweMpi Yezwe II. Lapha kwakwenzeka ngasekupheleni kwekhulu le-19. Manje sekunomzamo ohlangene wangempela wokucekela phansi lonke uhlelo lwemfundo yomphakathi. I-ALEC kanye ne-Koch Brothers basanda kumemezela umkhankaso wokuthatha i-Arizona njengecala lokuhlola ngoba bacabanga ukuthi i-Arizona cishe ilula njengoba cishe inezindleko eziphansi kakhulu zomuntu ngamunye zemfundo kanye nesishayamthetho esiphiko kwesokudla. Abazama ukukwenzaโbakuchaza ngokusobalaโukuzama ukucekela phansi uhlelo lwemfundo yomphakathi, baguqule yonke into ibe ngamavawusha kanye nezikole eziqashayo. Kuzoba yimpi ethokozisayo, futhi uma isebenza e-Arizona bafuna ukuyenza kwenye indawo.
Kuwukuhlasela okukhulu kwebhizinisi. Kufana kakhulu nokuhlasela izinyunyana. Okokuqala amaFriedrichs [Friedrichs v. California Teachers Association, lapho iNkantolo Ephakeme yashaya indiva odabeni lwelungelo lezinyunyana zezinkampani zikahulumeni lokuqoqa izimali kubasebenzi ezibamele, okuhlanganisa nalabo abangayihlanganisi inyunyana, ukuze babhekane nezingxoxo zokuxoxisana neminye imisebenzi], manje osekuyicala likaJanus, kanye cishe bazophumelela. Lo mthetho welungelo lokusebenza akwamukelekile kwamanye amazwe. Eqinisweni, ezingxoxweni ze-NAFTA, ngesinye isikhathi iCanada yaphakamisa ukuthi ingxenye yokubuyekezwa kufanele kube ukuvimbela izinyathelo ezibukela phansi amalungelo abasebenzi njengomthetho welungelo lokusebenza. Kufana nokusebenzisa utwayi. Akuzwakali nje. Kodwa uReagan wethula laphaโngicabanga ukuthi i-US kanye neNingizimu Afrika yiwona kuphela amazwe ayeyivumela. Eqinisweni, i-US ayikaze ivume ngisho nomgomo wokuqala we-International Labour Organisation, ilungelo lokuhlangana. Ngicabanga ukuthi i-US kumele ibe yodwa, ngokungananazi. Kungumphakathi ophethwe amabhizinisi kakhulu.
LP: Yini abafundi abaqeqeshwayo manje embonweni webhizinisi wemfundo ethatha izwe? Hlobo luni lwekusasa abayoba nalo? Futhi yenzani emcabangweni wentando yeningi?
NC: Abafundi bazolawulwa futhi baqondiswe izigwegwe. Imfundo ayishiyi indawo yokusebenzelana, umsebenzi wokuqamba, ukuthi othisha bazenzele izinto bodwa, abafundi bathole indlela yokwenza izinto, ngikhulume namaqembu othisha. Ngikhumbula ngesinye isikhathi nginikeza inkulumo futhi uthisha webanga lesi-6 weza kimi engichazela okuhlangenwe nakho. Wathi ngemva kwelinye ikilasi kweza intombazanyana yathi iyayithanda ngempela into eyavela futhi ifuna ukwazi ukuthi ingakwenza kanjani okwengeziwe ngakho. Futhi bona uthisha kwadingeka amtshele, ungeke ukwenze. Kufanele ufundele i-MCAS, inguqulo yaseMassachusetts yokuhlolwa okuvamile [I-Massachusetts Comprehensive Assessment System]. Konke kuncike kulokho. Ngisho iholo likathisha lincike kulokho. Ngakho-ke awukwazi ukwenza noma yini yokudala njengomuntu ngamunye. Ulandela imithetho. Le yindawo ka Marine Corps. Wenza lokho otshelwa khona. Azikho izinhlangano. Iwuhlelo oluphelele lokudala umphakathi onegunya ngokujulile.
Iphinde ibe uhlobo lwesistimu enezigaba ezimbili. Kufana nokwalokho uSam Bowles noHerb Gitnis [ababhali ababambisene nabo Isikole e-Capitalist America] okuxoxwe ngakho lapho bebhala ngemfundo yeningi labantu abancane. Kubasebenzi abajwayelekile, baguqule babe ngabasebenzi bezimboni, kepha kwabaphezulu, kufanele ube nobuchule: MIT, Harvard. Kumele ube nabantu abazokwakha isigaba esilandelayo somnotho.
LP: Eminyakeni embalwa edlule, sibe nemibhikisho eminingi, i-Occupy, Black Lives Matter, kanye #Nami futhi ukunyakaza, okuvame ukuhlangana nobutha noma ukuxoshwa emaphephandabeni enkululeko. Thatha #Nami futhi: umbhikisho omelene nokuhlukunyezwa ngokocansi kanye nodlame emsebenzini ukhombise ubumbano phakathi kwezigaba nasemazweni wonke. Isibonelo, abasebenzi basepulazini baseLatina kanye nabesifazane baseNdiya bayayisekela. Nokho abanye emaphephandabeni ekhululekile bayaqhathanisa #Nami futhi ababhikishi bebhekise kuMcCarthyites futhi baxwayise ngokuzingelwa kwabathakathi, naphezu kweqiniso lokuthi umbutho usiza ukususa amandla ekuphathweni kwengcindezelo kubasebenzi ezintweni ezibekela inselelo njengemibandela yokulamula ephoqelelwe enqabela abasebenzi ilungelo lokumangalela enkantolo.
NC: Kungumbhikisho osemthethweni futhi umnyakazo obalulekile. Izindleko kufanele zibe ngaphansi kokuqinisekiswa kohlobo oluthile. Izinsolo nje akwanele. Ngokwazi kwami, amaqembu abheke kwesokunxele njenge-EPI [Economic Policy Institute] avumelana nokuqeda ukulamula okuphoqiwe, okuphinde kuthinte nezinye izinhlobo eziningi zezindleko. Ngicabanga ukuthi bagxile emalungelweni abasebenzi.
LP: Kuyiqiniso lokho, kodwa kubonakala sengathi abanye ababoni #Nami futhi njengengxenye ngempela yomzabalazo wamalungelo abasebenzi.
NC: Kuyathakazelisa lokho. Yebo.
LP: Ake sikhulume ngodaba olubanzi lokungalingani kwezomnotho. Kulo nyaka, abacebile abacebile abavotwa ku-World Economic Forum e-Davos babala ukungalingani njengonombolo 7 ohlwini lwabo lwezinto ezikhathazayo zomhlaba. Bakhathazeke kakhulu ngezinye izinto, njengokuphulwa kwedatha kanye nokuthuthela kwelinye izwe ngokuzenzakalelayo. Ingabe ucabanga ukuthi bangase baduduzwe iqiniso lokuthi baye bagwema ezinye izimo ezesabekayo, njengokuthi, isibonelo, umongameli wangempela wabantu abaningi e-US, futhi angakhululeka kancane? Ingabe kufanele bakhathazeke kakhulu?
NC: Ubungozi ababubonayo wukuthi kungase kuholele ekuvukeleni umphakathi, ngakho kumele ukulawule lokho. Kunezaba ezijwayelekile mayelana nokufaneleka, okuyihlaya uma ubheka imininingwane. Ngiqonde ukuthi, thatha uBill Gatesโumuntu oncomeka kakhulu, kodwa, njengoba ngiqinisekile ukuthi uzoba ngowokuqala ukusho, wasekela ingcebo yakhe ezintweni ezimbili, eyodwa, amashumi eminyaka esebenza emkhakheni kahulumeni owadala ubuchwephesheโ umsebenzi wokudala, oyingozi owenziwa kusukela ngeminyaka yama-50s. Wayithatha wayimaketha. Owesibili yiNhlangano Yezohwebo Yomhlaba, emnikeza amalungelo okuthengisa amanani entengo eyodwa. Ngiqonde ukuthi kuhle kodwa...
LP: Uhlobo oluphambene nenganekwane ye-Horatio Alger [inkolelo yokuthi noma ubani angaceba ngokusebenza kanzima].
NC: Yebo.
LP: Okokugcina, njengoba ubheka phambili, yini oyibheka njengeyingozi enkulu kubantu esikhathini esizayo? Yini okufanele sikhathazeke ngayo kakhulu?
NC: Ukuguquka kwesimo sezulu kanye nempi yenuzi. Lezi izinsongo ezikhona ngempela. Futhi lokhu okwenzekayo manje kuyamangaza. Ukube abezindaba bebesebenza ngokuzimisela, nsuku zonke isihloko esiphambili besiyoba leli qiniso elimangalisayoโukuthi emhlabeni wonke, izwe ngalinye liyazama noma lizibophezele ekwenzeni okuthile okungenani. Izwe elilodwaโelilodwa!โizwe elinamandla kunawo wonke emlandweniโlizimisele ukuzama ukucekela phansi isimo sezulu. Hhayi nje ukukhipha imizamo yabanye, kodwa ukwandisa ukusetshenziswa kwezindlela ezibhubhisa kakhulu.
Akukaze kube khona into efana nalena emlandweni. Kuwuhlobo lwesitatimende esicasulayo, kodwa kwenzeka ukuthi kuyiqiniso, ukuthi i-Republican Party iyinhlangano eyingozi kakhulu emlandweni wesintu. Akekho, ngisho namaNazi, ngisho namaNazi, owayezinikezele ekucekeleni phansi ithuba lokuphila komuntu okuhleliwe. Ishoda nje kwabezindaba. Eqinisweni, uma ufunda, yithi, umshini webhizinisi onengqondo, i I-Financial Times, iBusinessWeek, noma yikuphi kubo, lapho bekhuluma ngokukhiqizwa kukaphethiloli wezinsalela ezimbiwa phansi, lezi zihloko zimayelana nethemba lenzuzo. Ingabe i-US iya endaweni yokuqala futhi yiziphi izinzuzo? Hhayi ukuthi izoqeda impilo yomuntu ehleliwe. Mhlawumbe lowo umbhalo waphansi ndawana thize. Kuyamangaza impela.
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Esinye isihloko esimangalisayo sikaMnu Chomsky! Uthi: 'Ngicabanga ukuthi i-US neNingizimu Afrika yiwona kuphela amazwe ayekuvumele lokho. Abantu abaningi abazi ukuthi i-New Zealand ngenkathi ihola umjaho we-neoliberalism ngeminyaka yama-80's -90's, yethula uMthetho Wenkontileka Yezokuqashwa owawulingisa imithetho yase-US yamalungelo okusebenza. Ubulungu bezinyunyana manje โbobokuzithandelaโ endaweni yokusebenza enezinyunyana, ngakho abaningi abangewona amalungu bazuza izinzuzo zalawo malungu ambalwa akhokhayo asele. Amalungu enyunyana akhokha izinkokhelo. Baya emihlanganweni, futhi bateleka (kwesinye isikhathi bengaholi kuyilapho abanye behola). Ekugcineni, izisebenzi ezingezona ezenyunyana bathola inkontileka efanayo ncamashi lapho umsebenzi wezimboni usuphelile owalwelwa ngamalungu enyunyana. Izinzuzo zinqatshiwe. Amaholo awahambisani ne-inflation. Izimo ziye zehla kakhulu (ukusebenza amahora amade ukuze uthole imali encane, ukukhokha kancane noma ungakhokheli lapho udilizwa, njll., indlela encane yokuxhashazwa umsebenzi ngabaphathi - ukuthola usizo lweqiniso lwezomthetho cishe akunakwenzeka.) Ubulungu bezinyunyana buwile ngo-ยฝ kusukela kwethulwa i-ECA ekuqaleni kwawo-90. Futhi ikusasa labo lifiphele (yize kungenalo ithemba) http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11731947 Noma kunjalo njengoba i-NZ yayikude ngakwesobunxele se-USA ngenkathi kushaywa le mithetho, amanye amalungelo okusebenza asaqinile, njengokukhokhelwa kokungadingeki emsebenzini kanye neziteleka/izixwayiso ezi-3 zokuxoshwa.