Ngikhona Idatha Ebandakanyayo 2013 inkomfa lapho Noam Chomsky kanye nowine uMklomelo wePulitzer (kabili!) Barton Gellman bazokhuluma ngeDatha Enkulu ku-Snowden Age, imodareyithwe ngu Ludwig Siegele we-Economist. (U-Gellman ungomunye wabantu abathathu uSnowden afakazele ngabo amadokhumenti akhe.) Ingqungquthela ihlose ukuthi sicabange kabusha ukuthi siyisebenzisa kanjani Idatha Enkulu nokuthi isetshenziswa kanjani. QAPHELA: Live-blogging. Ukwenza izinto zingahambi kahle. Amaphuzu alahlekile. Ikhipha ulwazi olubalulekile. Sethula i-choppiness yokwenziwa. Ukugcizelela ngokweqile izinto ezincane. Ukuchaza kabi. Ayisebenzisi isihloli sokupela. Ukuhlanganisa imibono namagama abanye abantu. Ungu waxwayiswa, abantu.
LS: Prof. Chomsky, imayelana nani incwadi yakho elandelayo?
NC: Ifilosofi yengqondo nolimi. Bengibhala izindatshana ezinokungabaza kakhulu ngeDatha Enkulu. [Sicela ufunde umshwana wokuzihlangula osawolintshi: Ngibeka ngamafuphi futhi ngenza amaphutha azo zonke izinhlobo.]
LS: Uke wathi iBig Data eyabantu abafuna ukwenza izinto ezilula. Kodwa akufanele yini ujabule njengesazi sezilimi?
NC: Lapho ngifika eMIT ngo-1955, ngaqashwa ukusebenza ohlelweni lokuhumusha ngomshini. Kodwa ngenqaba ukusebenza ngakho. "Ukuphela kwendlela yokubhekana nokuhunyushwa komshini kulesi sigaba samanje sokuqonda kwaba ngamandla anonya, okuthi ngemva kweminyaka engama-30-40 kube yindlela okwenziwa ngayo." Ukuqonda okunezimiso okusekelwe ekuqapheleni komuntu kusekude. Ukuhumusha ngomshini kuyasiza kodwa awufundi lutho ngokuqondile ngomcabango womuntu, ukuqonda, ulimi, nanoma yini enye esuka kukho. Ngisebenzisa i-inthanethi. Ngiyajabula ukuba nayo. Kulula ukucisha izinkinobho ezithile etafuleni lakho kunokuhamba uwele umgwaqo ukuze usebenzise umtapo wolwazi. Kodwa ukushintshwa kokusuka emitatsheni yolwazi ukuya emitatsheni yolwazi bekukukhulu kakhulu kunokusuka emitatsheni yolwazi kuye ku-inthanethi. [Umqondo omuhle nezwi elihle! Kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi angivumelani. Kuya ngesimo.] Singathola idatha eminingi; inkinga ukuyiqonda. Futhi idatha eningi esizungezile idlula ngesihlungi ukuze ingasifinyeleli. Isb., abezindaba bakwamanye amazwe babika ukuthi i-Wikileaks ikhiphe isahluko mayelana ne-TPP eyimfihlo (I-Trans Pacific Partnership). Kwakuyizindaba zekhasi lokuqala e-Australia naseYurophu. Ungafunda ngakho ku-Net kodwa akuzona izindaba. Isahluko besimayelana namalungelo e-Intellectual Property, okusho amanani aphezulu okufinyelela kancane emithini yemithi, nezinqama SOPA wazama ukukwenza, ukukhawulela ukusetshenziswa kwe-Net kanye nokufinyelela kudatha.
LS: Kuwena I-Big Data ayinamsebenzi?
NC: Idatha enkulu iwusizo kakhulu. Uma ufuna ukwazi ngebhayoloji, isb. Kodwa kungani kungekho zindaba mayelana ne-TPP? Njengoba USam huntington wathi, amandla ahlala eqinile ebumnyameni. [cishe] Kufanele siqaphele umlando omude wokugadwa.
LS: Bart, njengentatheli wenzani ngeBig Data?
BG: Ibaluleke ngendlela emangalisayo, ikakhulukazi uma ihlanganiswa nesikhumba sezicathulo, ukubika komuntu nomuntu. Isb., uzakwethu usebenzise amakhono okubika endabuko ukuze athole yonke isethi yedatha yabafake izicelo zokuxolelwa kukamongameli. Uthathe isampula. Ukubika okwengeziwe. Kusetshenziswe izindlela ezijwayelekile zokuhlaziya ukuze kutholwe ukuthi abantu abamhlophe banamathuba angu-4x okuthola ukuxolelwa, okungenzeka ukuthi abahlanganyeli bomkhankaso nabo banamathuba amaningi kakhulu. Kungenzeka ekuhleleni amadolobha [okuyimali ekhishwa yiSenseable City Labs]. Kodwa konke lokhu kuholela ekugadweni okwengeziwe. Isb., ngingenza icala lokuthi uma nginedatha egcwele mayelana nezingcingo zawo wonke umuntu, ngingenza ukubika okubalulekile, kodwa lokho bekungeke kuthethelele lokho. Sehlulekile ukuba nenkulumo-mpikiswano esiyidingayo ngenxa yezinsolo zokuthi izikhungo eziphethe ziyimfihlo. Siphumela obala kuhulumeni nasezinkampaneni zezentengiselwano kuyilapho zingabonakali kithi.
LS: Ingabe ukutholakala kwe-Big Data kanye ne-Internet kusho ukuthi sizothola ukugadwa? Ingabe umangazwe ngezambulo ze-Snowden?
NC: Ngamangala ngesikali, kodwa sesineminyaka engu-100 siqhubeka. Sidinga ukufunda umlando. Isb., "i-pacification" yokulwa nokuvukela umbuso wase-Philippines yi-US. Bheka incwadi kaMcCoy [kungenzeka lokhu. Umsebenzi wasebenzisa ubuchwepheshe obuyinkimbinkimbi kakhulu ngaleso sikhathi ukuze uthole ulwazi mayelana nenani labantu elizobalawula futhi libabukele phansi. Lobo buchwepheshe basetshenziswa ngokushesha yi-US kanye neBrithani ukulawula imiphakathi yabo, .g., I-Red Scare ka-Woodrow Wilson. Noma yiluphi uhlelo lwamandla - izwe, i-Google, i-Amazon - luzosebenzisa ubuchwepheshe obutholakalayo obungcono kakhulu ukulawula, ukubusa, nokukhulisa amandla abo. Futhi bazofuna ukukwenza ngasese. U-Assange, Snowden noManning, kanye no-Ellsberg phambi kwabo, benza umsebenzi wezakhamizi.
BG: Kuyangimangaza ukuthi ungangena kude kangakanani kule ngxoxo ngaphandle kokucabangela kabi uhlangothi lukahulumeni. Ikakhulukazi okwenzekayo ukuthi lezi zikhungo zokuphepha zikholelwa ngokweqiniso isikhathi esiningi ukuthi ezikwenzayo kusivikela ezinsongweni ezinkulu esingaziqondi. Abaphikisayo bafika lapho bengafuni ukuthi wazi ukuthi benzani ngoba besaba ukuthi uzoyiqeda ukube uyazi. Keith Alexander wathi ufisa ukuthi angaletha bonke abantu baseMelika kulokhu kuhlangana, kodwa-ke bonke abantu ababi bazokwazi. Yiqiniso, kodwa futhi ukhathazekile ngokuthi ngeke siyithande imidlalo ayibizayo.
SL: UBruce Schneier ithi i-NSA ikopisha okwenziwa yi-Google ne-Yahoo, njll. Uma ubuchwepheshe buholela ekuhloleni, yini esingayenza ngakho?
NC: Sekuyiminyaka ohulumeni benza lokhu, besebenzisa ubuchwepheshe obungcono kakhulu ababenabo. Ngiyaqiniseka ukuthi u-Gen. Alexander ukholelwa lokho akushoyo, kodwa uma uxoxisana ne-Stasi, ngabe basho into efanayo. Imibhalo egciniwe yaseRussia ibonisa ukuthi lezi zigebengu ezesabekayo zazikhuluma ngentshiseko yodwa ngokuvikela intando yeningi eMpumalanga Yurophu osongo lwamafascist olwaluvela eNtshonalanga. Eminyakeni engamashumi amane edlule, i-RAND yakhipha amadokhumenti aseJapane mayelana nokuhlasela kweShayina, ebonisa ukuthi amaJapane ayenezinhloso zasezulwini. Bakukholwa konke ababekusho. Ngikholwa ukuthi lezi ezasemhlabeni jikelele. Cishe singayithola nakuGenghis Khan. Angikatholi noma yiluphi uhlelo lwamandla olwalucabanga ukuthi lenza okungalungile. Bathethelela abakwenzayo ngezinjongo ezinhle kakhulu, futhi bayakukholelwa. Ama-CEO ezinkampani nawo. Abantu bathola izindlela zokuthethelela izinto. Kungakho kufanele uqaphe kakhulu uma uzwa isikhalazo kwezokuphepha. Ayinalwazi ngempela, ngisho nasemqondweni wezobuchwepheshe: ikwazi ukubikezelwa ngokuphelele futhi ngaleyo ndlela ayinalo ulwazi. Angingabazi ukuthi abantu bezokuphepha base-US bayakukholelwa, kodwa akunancazelo. AmaNazi ayenezawo izizathu zangaphakathi.
BG: Amandla okuziphendulela angase abonakale emhlabeni wonke, kodwa uzosusa ingxoxo uma uqhathanisa okwenzeka lapha kanye Stasi. Ama-Stasi ayethumba abantu, ebavalela ejele, evimbela ukungezwani. Njengentatheli ngingajabula kakhulu ukuthola ukuthi uhulumeni wethu uhlola izinhlangano ezizimele noma usebenzisa la mandla ngezinhloso zenkohlakalo zokuzicebisa.
NC: Ngivumelana ngokuphelele nalokho, kodwa akulona iphuzu: Isikhalazo esifanayo senziwa ezimweni ezimbi kakhulu. Inkululeko esiyiwinile ikhawulela kakhulu amandla ezwe okulawula nokuphatha, kodwa bazokwenza noma yini abangayenza, futhi bazosebenzisa izikhalo ezifanayo nalezo ezisetshenziswa amasistimu amakhulu.
LS: Ngabe sonke asihlangene? Sisebenzisa ubuchwepheshe obufanayo. Isb., Prof. Chomsky, ungubaba wokucutshungulwa kolimi lwemvelo, olusetshenziswa yi-NSA.
NC: Sibambene kakhulu ngoba siyabavumela ukuthi bakwenze. Kuleli zwe sikhululeke kakhulu, ngakho-ke sinesibopho esengeziwe sokuzama ukulawula uhulumeni wethu. Uma singazivezi izicelo zokuvikela futhi sihlukanise izingxenye ezingase zivumeleke enanini elikhulu elingavumelekile, sizobe sesibandakanyeka ngoba sinenkululeko kanye nenkululeko.
LS: Ingabe kuyakuphatha kabi ukuthi i-NSA isebenzisa ucwaningo lwakho?
NC: Ngokwezinga elithile, kodwa awukwazi ukulawula lokho. Izinhlelo zamandla zizosebenzisa noma yini etholakala kuzo. Isb., basebenzisa i-inthanethi, iningi layo elathuthukiswa khona lapha e-MIT ngososayensi ababefuna ukuxhumana ngokukhululekile. Awukwazi ukuvimbela amandla ukuthi angayisebenziseli imigomo emibi.
BG: Yebo, uma usebenzisa isevisi ye-inthanethi yamahhala, ungumkhiqizo. Kodwa uma usebenzisa isevisi yokukhokhela, usewumkhiqizo. Ucingo lwami luyangilandela kanye nenethiwekhi yami yokuxhumana nabantu. Ngikhokhela i-Verizon cishe i-$ 1,000 / ngonyaka ngesevisi, futhi i-VZ manje iqoqa futhi ithengisa ulwazi lwami. I-NSA ayikwazanga ukwenza umsebenzi wayo uma izinhlangano zezentengiselwano zingaqoqi futhi zithengise idatha yomuntu siqu. I-NSA ibilokhu ingena kuzixhumanisi phakathi kwezikhungo zabo zedatha. I-Google ijaha ukulungisa lokhu, kodwa indlela ehlekisayo yokubeka lokhu ukuthi i-Google ithi "Akekho ongaba inhloli kumakhasimende ethu ngaphandle kwethu."
LS: Ingabe ikhona indlela yokuxazulula lokhu?
BG: Nginethemba elikhulu lokuthi ukwenza izinto obala kuzokwenza kube nomgomo omuhle. Uma sazi okwengeziwe, kulapho singakwazi khona ukuklama izinqubomgomo zokugcina amandla ekhona. Ngaphambi kwalokhu, awukwazanga ukuthengela ubumfihlo. Manje imakethe yamahhala yobumfihlo iyathuthuka njengoba abahlinzeki manje sebesitshela kabanzi mayelana nabakwenzayo. Ukungafihli kuvumela umthetho nomthetho ukuthi kuxoxwe ngawo. I-House Repub ingene phakathi kwamavoti angu-8 okuvimbela ukuqoqwa kwedatha yezingcingo, obekungeke kucatshangwe ngaphambi kuka-Snowden. Futhi kukhona ithemba emajajini.
NC: Kuningi esingakwenza ngaphandle kokwenza izinto obala. Singasebenzisa ulwazi olutholakalayo ukuze sigweme ukugadwa. Isb., singafuna ukunqotshwa kwe-TPP. Futhi manje izingxenyekazi zekhompuyutha ezikumakhompuyutha zidizayinelwe ukuthola zonke izinkinobho zakho, okuholela abanye abantu baseMelika ukuthi baqaphele amakhompyutha enziwe eChina, kodwa abakhiqizi base-US cishe bakwenza kangcono. Futhi abakhiqizi iminyaka eminingi bezama ukudizayina ama-drones angama-fly ukuze baqoqe imininingwane; lokho kuzoba maduze. I-Drones iyithuluzi eliphelele lamaphekula. Singafunda ngalokhu futhi senze okuthile ngakho. Akumele silinde kuze kudalulwe yi-Wikileaks. Ikhona lapho kumajenali ajwayelekile.
LS: Ngabe ubiza inhlangano yezepolitiki?
NC: Yebo. Sizodinga isenzo esikhulu.
BG: Ezinyangeni ezimbalwa ezedlule ngabona ibhokisi elincane elimpunga elinophawu lwe-EPA ngaphandle kwendlu yami e-NYC. Iqapha ukusetshenziswa kwamandla, iwusizo ekuvimbeleni ukuphuma okunsundu. Kepha ifinyelela ezingeni lefulethi, okungaba usizo emaphoyiseni azama ukusungula amaphethini akho omuntu siqu. Awukho umthetho noma ukubuyekezwa kokwahlulela kokusetshenziswa kwale datha. Asikwazi ukubuyisela iwashi emuva. Singazama ukudweba imingcele, bese sibe nokuvuleka okwanele ukuze sikwazi ukubona ukuthi ngabe beqe leyo mingcele.
LS: Bart, ukuphatha kanjani ukugeleza kolwazi oluvela ku-Snowden?
BG: U-Snowden akakuphathi ukukhishwa kwedatha. Unikeze izintatheli ezintathu futhi wasicela ukuthi sisebenzise ukwahlulela kwakho okuhle kakhulu - usicele ukuthi silungise ukuchema kwakhe mayelana nokuthi yiziphi izindaba ezibaluleke kakhulu - futhi sigweme ukulimala okuqondile kwezokuphepha. Amadokhumenti anzima. Ngokuvamile aziphelele futhi kungaba nzima ukuzichaza.
Q&A
Q: Isiphi isinyathelo sokuqala esingaba yisinyathelo sokuqala sokwakha inhlangano edumile?
NC: Kuyafana njalo. Isib., ukunyakaza kwabesifazane kwaqala ngawo-1960 (okungenani ukunyakaza kwesimanje) ngamaqembu akhulisa ukwazi.
Umbuzo: Siwudweba kuphi umugqa phakathi kokubonisa izinto obala nobumfihlo, njengoba sinezitha zangempela?
BG: Okokuqala kufanele uvume ukuthi kukhona umugqa. Kunabantu abayingozi abafuna ukwenza izinto eziyingozi, futhi amanye ala mathuluzi ayasiza ekuvimbeleni lokho. Bengilokhu ngifuna izindaba ezicacisa izinqumo ezinkulu zenqubomgomo ngaphandle kokunikeza imininingwane engalimaza isenzo esisemthethweni.
Umbuzo: Ingabe uwashintshile amathuluzi owasebenzisayo?
BG: Yebo. Ngigcina amanothi ebethelwe. Ngifunde ukusebenzisa amathuluzi okuxhumana ngokungaziwa. Kodwa angikwazi ukuphuma kugridi futhi ngibe intatheli, ngakho ngamukele ukuhwebelana okuthile. Ngisebenza kahle kakhulu kunakuqala. Isb., kwesinye isikhathi ngisebenzisa amakhompyutha angakaze athinte i-Net.
Q: Emhlanganweni wabesifazane, okungenani u-50% wabantu bamele ukuhlomula. Kodwa cishe iningi labantu banamuhla lingashintsha inkululeko yalo ukuze libe lula.
NC: Ukuhwebelana kwethulwa njengokwezokuphepha. Kepha uma ufunda imibhalo, udaba lwezokuphepha ukuthi ungagcina kanjani i-govt ivikelekile kwizakhamizi zayo. Isb., u-Ellsberg ugcine imfihlo ye-Pentagon Papers ukuze agweme ukuthikameza izingxoxo zaseVietnam, nakuba ngangicabanga ukuthi ivolumu ngempela yayizophoxa uhulumeni. Ukuphepha empeleni akuyona into ebaluleke kakhulu kuhulumeni. Uhulumeni wase-US manje usezibandakanye emkhankasweni wamaphekula emhlabeni wonke omkhulu kunayo yonke owake wenziwa: umkhankaso we-drone. Izifunda ezinkulu zomhlaba manje zigcwele ukwesaba. Uma ungazi ukuthi umfana ongaphesheya komgwaqo uzoshaywa umoya yini, kanye nawo wonke umuntu oseduze nawe, uthukile. Ngaso sonke isikhathi uma ubulala amaphekula e-Al Qaeda, udala amanye angama-40. Akuyona nje ukukhathazeka kuhulumeni. Ngo-1950, i-US yayinokuphepha okungenakuqhathaniswa; kwakukhona usongo olulodwa kuphela olwalungaba khona: ukwakhiwa kwe-ICBMโs enezikhali zenuzi. Besingangena esivumelwaneni neRussia sokubavala. Bona umlando kaMcGeorge Bundy. Ithi akakwazanga ukuthola iphepha elilodwa, ngisho nohlaka, olusikisela ukuthi senze okuthile ukuze sizame ukuvimbela lolu songo lokucekelwa phansi ngokuphelele kwamanje. Isb., uReagan uhlole izivikelo zenuzi zaseRussia ebezingaholela emiphumeleni esabekayo. Lezo yizinsongo zangempela zokuphepha. Futhi akulona iqiniso e-United States kuphela.
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