U-AMY GOODMAN: Namuhla ihora noHoward Zinn noNoam Chomsky engxoxweni eyivelakancane nabo ndawonye, futhi ngiyanamukela nobabili Intando yeningi Manje!
NOAM CHOMSKY: Kumnandi ukuba lapha.
U-HOWARD ZINN: Ngiyabonga Amy.
U-AMY GOODMAN: Yeka usuku lokuba lapha. Lolu wusuku lweBoston Marathon, liyana. Kuyisiphepho esikhulu ngaphandle kanye namashumi ezinkulungwane zabantu - ingabe omunye wenu ubehlela ukugijima namuhla?
U-HOWARD ZINN: Yebo besikhona, yebo, kodwa uyazi —
NOAM CHOMSKY: Kodwa ngempela wenze kwaba nzima kithi.
U-AMY GOODMAN: Ngiyaxolisa ngalokho.
U-HOWARD ZINN: Sikhethe ukugijima ku-marathon noma ukuba nengxoxo nawe, yini ebaluleke kakhulu?
U-AMY GOODMAN: Hhayi-ke, namuhla usuku lwePatriot, Howard Zinn, kusho ukuthini ukushisekela izwe kuwe?
U-HOWARD ZINN: Ngiyajabula ngokuthi usho ukuthini kimi. Ngoba kimina kusho okuhlukile kunalokho okushiwo kubantu abaningi engicabanga ukuthi abawuhlanekezele umqondo wokushisekela izwe. Ukushisekela izwe kimi kusho ukwenza lokho ocabanga ukuthi kufanele ngabe uyakwenza. Ukushisekela izwe kusho ukweseka uhulumeni wakho uma ucabanga ukuthi wenza kahle, uphikisane nohulumeni wakho uma ucabanga ukuthi wenza okungalungile. Ukushisekela izwe kimi kusho ukuthini ngempela Declaration of Independence iphakamisa. Futhi lokho ukuthi uhulumeni uyinhlangano yokwenziwa.
Uhulumeni uyamiswa–futhi nakhu okushiwo a Declaration of Independence imayelana, uhulumeni umiswa ngabantu ukuze afeze izibopho ezithile: ukulingana, ukuphila, inkululeko, ukuphishekela injabulo. Futhi ngokusho kwe- Declaration of Independence lapho uhulumeni ephula lezo zibopho, ke, futhi lawa amazwi ka Declaration of Independence kuyilungelo labantu ukuguqula noma ukuqeda uhulumeni.
Ngamanye amazwi uhulumeni akangcwele, uhulumeni akufanele alalelwe uma uhulumeni enephutha. Ngakho kimina ukushisekela izwe ngendlela engcono kakhulu kusho ukucabanga ngabantu bezwe, othishanhloko izwe elimele bona, futhi kudinga ukuphikisana nohulumeni uma uhulumeni ephula leyo migomo.
Ngakho-ke namuhla, ngokwesibonelo, isenzo esiphakeme kakhulu sokushisekela izwe engisikiselayo, sizobe siphikisana nempi yase-Iraq futhi sifuna ukuhoxiswa kwamasosha e-Iraq. Ngoba nje yonke into ngempi yephula izimiso eziyisisekelo zokulingana, ukuphila, inkululeko, ukuphishekela injabulo, hhayi nje kwabaseMelika, kodwa nakubantu abakwenye ingxenye yomhlaba. Ngakho-ke, yebo, ukushisekela izwe namuhla kudinga izakhamuzi ukuba zibambe iqhaza emikhakheni eminingi, eminingi eyahlukene ukuze ziphikise izinqubomgomo zikahulumeni mayelana nempi, izinqubomgomo zikahulumeni ezithathe izigidigidi zamaRandi endaweni yengcebo yaleli zwe futhi zayisebenzisela impi nezempi. Yilokho ukuthanda izwe okungakudinga namuhla.
U-AMY GOODMAN: U-Noam Chomsky, izihloko zezindaba namuhla, kule mpelasonto nje, enye yezinyanga ezichitha igazi e-Iraq, isibalo seziboshwa emajele ase-US e-Iraq sesifinyelele okuthile okufana ne-18,000. Ubani owaziyo uma lokho kungekona ukubukelwa phansi? An Associated Press umthwebuli wezithombe uhlala ejele eboshwe yiziphathimandla zase-US ngaphandle kwecala isikhathi esingaphezu konyaka. Umnyango wezempilo uthole u-70% wezingane zesikole zaseBaghdad ezikhombisa izimpawu zengcindezi ehlobene nokuhlukumezeka. Ukuhlola kwakho manje isimo lapho?
NOAM CHOMSKY: Lena enye yezinhlekelele ezimbi kakhulu emlandweni wezempi futhi emlandweni wezombangazwe. Izifundo zakamuva ze- I-Red Cross bonisa ukuthi i-Iraq ibhekane nokwehla okubi kakhulu kokushona kwezingane, ukufa kwezinsana, ukwanda kokushona kwezinsana okwaziwayo. Kodwa kusukela ngo-1990. Okusho ukuthi, inhlanganisela yombuso wababulali kanye nezijeziso ezinonya, esingakhulumi ngazo kakhulu, ezacekela phansi umphakathi ngeminyaka yawo-1990 futhi zaqinisa. Saddam Hussein, waphoqa abantu ukuthi bathembele kuye ukuze baphile, okungenzeka ukuthi kwamsindisa esiphethweni sochungechunge olude lwabanye abahlukumezi abaketulwa abantu babo abasekelwa yi-US.
Kwabe sekufika impi phezu kwayo emane yandisa izinto ezesabekayo. Ukwehla akukaze kwenzeke. Ukwanda kokushona kwezinsana akukaze kwenzeke; manje selingaphansi kwezinga, libi kakhulu kunamanye amazwe ase-sub-Saharan Africa. Kuyinkomba eyodwa yalokho okwenzekile. Isilinganiso sokufa okungenzeka kakhulu kuso ocwaningweni oluxhaswe yi-MIT olwenziwa ngongoti abahamba phambili e-Iraq futhi lapha ngo-Okthoba odlule kwabulawa abangaba ngu-650,000, maduze nje bazodudula isigidi. Kukhona abantu abayizigidi ezimbalwa ababalekile kubandakanya nengxenye enkulu yamakilasi ochwepheshe, abantu ababengasiza ngothishanhloko ukwakha kabusha izwe. Futhi ngaphandle kokuqhubeka, kuyinhlekelele esabekayo futhi iba yimbi nakakhulu.
Kuyafaneleka futhi ukugcizelela ukuthi abahlaseli abanawo amalungelo. Leli yicala elicacile lobudlova kanye nokwephulwa kwe-UN Charter, ubugebengu obukhulu bamazwe ngamazwe futhi ngokwamazwi eNkantolo YaseNuremburg, abahlukumezi abanawo amalungelo okwenza noma yiziphi izinqumo. Banezibopho. Izibopho, okokuqala, ukukhokha izinxephezelo ezinkulu futhi lokho kufaka phakathi unswinyo– umphumela wenswinyo, empeleni kufanele kufake ukusekelwa kukaSaddam Hussein ngeminyaka yawo-1980, okwakuhlukumeza ama-Iraqi futhi okubi nakakhulu kubantu base-Irani.
Izinxephezelo ezikhokhelwayo zenza labo abanesibopho, baziphendulele futhi banakekele intando yabahlukunyezwayo. Akusho ngempela ukulandela ngobumpumputhe, kodwa qiniseka ngakho. Futhi intando yezisulu iyaziwa, amavoti ajwayelekile aqhutshwa yi-US e-Iraq, kanye nezikhungo zokuvota zikahulumeni, kuwukweseka okukhulu kokuhoxa ngokushesha noma ngokushesha kwamasosha ase-US, cishe amaphesenti angama-80 acabanga ukuthi ubukhona bamasosha ase-US buyanda. izinga lodlame. Bangaphezu kuka-60% abacabanga ukuthi amasosha ayizisulu ezisemthethweni. Lokhu akusiyo yonke i-Iraq, uma uthatha izibalo ze-Arab Iraq lapho amasosha etshalwe khona izibalo ziphezulu. Izibalo zilokhu zikhuphuka. Akushiwo, akubikwanga nhlobo, akushiwo lutho embikweni obucayi we-Baker-Hamilton. Lokho kuzoba ukukhathazeka kwethu okuyinhloko, kanye nokukhathazeka kwabantu baseMelika.
U-AMY GOODMAN: IPhini likamongameli uCheney uthi le mpi inganqotshwa.
NOAM CHOMSKY: Kunocwaningo oluthokozisayo olwenziwa yilowo owayeyisosha laseRussia e-Afghanistan ngasekupheleni kwawo-1980, manje usengumfundi eToronto oqhathanisa nezindaba zaseRussia kanye nezazi zezombusazwe zaseRussia nabaholi bezempi, ababekusho nge-Afghanistan, beyiqhathanisa ne lokho uCheney, abanye kanye nabezindaba abakushoyo nge-Iraq futhi hhayi ukumangala kwakho okukhulu, shintsha amagama ambalwa futhi kuphuma okufanayo.
Bebethi impi yase-Afghanistan inganqotshwa futhi baqinisile. Ukube bebenyuse izinga lodlame ngokwanele, bebengayinqoba impi e-Iraq
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Nikela