UDavid McReynolds owayenesikhathi eside elwela ukulwa nezimpi, ushone ngoLwesihlanu eneminyaka engu-88. Waziwa isazi-mlando u-Howard Zinn nabanye abaningi โnjengeqhawe lenhlangano elwa nempi,โ uMcReynolds wayeyilungu le-War Resisters League kusukela ngo-1960 kuya ku-1999. igxile ekuqasheni abantu futhi yasiza ukuhlela okukodwa kokushiswa kwamakhadi okusalungiswa. Uqhubekile wadlala indima ebalulekile kweminye yemibhikisho emikhulu emelene neMpi yaseVietnam kanye nomkhankaso wokuqeda izikhali zenuzi. UMcReynolds wangenela isikhundla sokuba ngumongameli ngo-1980 nango-2000 njengendoda eyisitabane obala. Ukuze uthole okwengeziwe, sikhuluma nabangane bakhe ababili abaseduze. U-Ed Hedemann usebenze noMcReynolds amashumi eminyaka e-War Resisters League. UJeremy Scahill uyintatheli ephenyayo kanye nomsunguli we-The Intercept.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Lokhu Intando yeningi Manje!, democracynow.org, I-War and Peace Report. Ngingu-Amy Goodman. Siphetha uhlelo lwanamuhla sikhumbula impilo nefa lika-David McReynolds, umlandeli wesikhathi eside wokulwa nokulwela amalungelo abantu isazi-mlando u-Howard Zinn nabanye abaningi abambiza โngeqhawe lenhlangano emelene nempi.โ UMcReynolds ushone ngoLwesihlanu eneminyaka engu-88. Cishe amashumi amane eminyaka, kusukela ngo-1960 kuya ku-1999, uMcReynolds wayeyilungu le-War Resisters League, lapho ayegxile khona ekuqasheni abantu, wasiza ukuhlela ukushiswa kwamakhadi okuqala, waqhubeka. ukudlala indima ebalulekile kweminye yemiboniso emikhulu emelene neMpi yaseVietnam. Uphinde wakhankasela ukuqedwa kwezikhali zenuzi. Ngo-1980 no-2000, uDavid McReynolds wangenela isikhundla sokuba ngumongameli njengendoda eyisitabane esobala kuSocialist Party. USA ithikithi. Kuthe esakhankasa ngo-2000 Wakhuluma ngempilo yakhe yobushoshovu ngesikhathi enenhlolokhono Intando yeningi Manje!
DAVID UMcREYNOLDS: Ngijoyine iSocialist Party ngo UCLA ngo-1951. Ngajoyina i-War Resisters League cishe ngesikhathi esifanayo. Ngaboshelwa ukwenqaba ukungeniswa phakathi neMpi YaseKorea, hhayi iMpi YaseVietnamโnganqoba lelo cala ngobuchwepheshe. Waya emsebenzini Ukukhululeka ngo-1957 ngaphansi kuka-AJ Muste noBayard Rustin, uDave Dellinger, uRoy Finch, uSid Lens. Ngaba yizisebenzi ze-War Resisters League ngo-1960 futhi ngasebenzela lokho kwaze kwaba ngu-January ka-1999, lapho ngithatha umhlalaphansi. Futhi manje ngingenela ukhetho lwe-Socialist Party.
Umlando wami, ngiyesaba, awufaki noma iyiphi inkonzo yezempi emangalisayo, kodwa inqwaba yokuboshwa phakathi neminyaka edlule futhi, phakathi neMpi YeVietnam, ukuvakashela eHanoi naseSaigon, futhi, phakathi neMpi YaseGulf. , ukuvakashela e-Iraq, ngaphambi nje kokuhlasela okukhulu lapho, nokunye ukuvakashela kwezinye izingxenye zomhlaba, iSoviet Union phakathi nenkathi eyayizohlakazeka. NgangisePrague, ngenhlanhla enkulu, ngesikhathi sokuhlasela. Awuvamisile ukuthola ithuba lokuba lapho phakathi nalolo hlobo lwento. Ngakho, lokho kungukufinyezwa komlando wami.
JUAN GONZรLEZ: Hhayi-ke, Dave, usabela kanjani kulabo abangathi ukufuna kwakho kwesobumongameli kuxakile futhi akubalulekile kunokaRalph Nader noma uPat Buchanan? Futhi yini othemba ukuyizuza ngokugijima?
DAVID UMcREYNOLDS: Yebo, futhi ake ngengeze into eyodwa kulelo rekhodi, ukuze ngingasolwa ngokuligwema. Ngaphuma ngiwungqingili ngo-1969, ngakho ngicabanga ukuthi lokho kwakungesinye sezitatimende zokuqala ezivulelekile.
Bheka, ukhetho lukamongameli luyinhlolovo yemibono. Yilokho ngempela okuyikho. Ngizama ukwethula umqondo wesocialism, ngiwubuyisele engxoxweni yaseMelika. Ngicabanga ukuthi kunelungelo lokungena. Sengikhathele ukuzwa ukuthi singama impiriyali, singabandlululi ngokobuhlanga nokunye, futhi angazi ukuthi sisebenzelani. Futhi mina ngingowe-democratic socialism, umbono omdala ngo-1901, lapho iqembu lasungulwa, ubuyela emuva ekhulwini leminyaka elidlule. Ayisekelwe eMoscow noma eLenin. โฆ
Umzabalazo wangempela usezingeni likakhongolose, ezingeni lezomthetho, futhi usemigwaqweni. Asaziโangicabangi ukuthi abantu bayazi ngempela. Iningi lalabo abeseka uNader, isibonelo, angicabangi ukuthi bayawazi amandla esakhiwo abasiphikisayo kanye nezindleko ezizodingeka ukuguqula leso sakhiwo. Uma ubheka noma yiluphi ushintsho olubucayi ngempela lwezenhlalo, oluvela eNdiya ngaphansi kukaGandhi, engiluthatha njengesibonelo sami nendlela yami yokusebenza, kwaba nenani elikhulu labantu ababulawa, futhi kwaba khona ukuboshwa okukhulu. Futhi uGandhi wachitha ingxenye enkulu yempilo yakhe yabantu abadala emajele aseBrithani. Uma ubheka inhlangano yaseNingizimu, ubheka umkhondo wegazi nokwethuka, nezingane ezibulawa ezikoleni, nokushaywa nobudlova, ukuthi uma wawuseNingizimu ngaleso sikhathi ungasiqonda isiqubulo esasithi. ukuthi abaningi abangakholelwa kuNkulunkulu baya eNingizimu, kodwa abekho ababuya njengabangakholelwa kuNkulunkulu, ngenxa yethonya leSonto Lama-Black Baptist. Kodwa leyo mizabalazo ayizange iphumelele ezinkantolo. Abawinanga nje ngamavoti. Lokho kwakuyingxenye yento ye-dialectical. Kodwa bayanqotshwa emigwaqweni.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Lowo kwakunguDavid McReynolds, ekhuluma ngo-2000 Intando yeningi Manje!, lapho sisakaza emhlanganweni weRiphabhulikhi ePhiladelphia. UDave McReynolds ushone ngoLwesihlanu eneminyaka engu-88 ubudala. Ubeshone ezinsukwini ezedlule emzini wakhe, efulethini lakhe eliseLower East Side. Uthe esetholakele waphuthunyiswa esibhedlela.
UDavid McReynolds wabhala kakhulu empilweni yakhe yonke, okuhlanganisa neqoqo lezindaba ngo-1970 elinesihloko esithi. Sihlaselwe Ikhulu lama-21. Sinayo leyo ncwadi eyiphepha lapha.
Ukuze uthole okwengeziwe, sihlanganiswe abangani bakaDavid besikhathi eside. Lapha eNew York, u-Ed Hedemann unathi, umngane oseduze kaDavid McReynolds. Kusukela ngeminyaka yawo-'70s, bobabili basebenze ndawonye amashumi eminyaka ku-War Resisters League emikhankasweni yokuphikisa ukubuthwa nokuhoxiswa kwezikhali nokunye. U-Ed ungumbhali we-_War Resisters League Organiser's Manual_ kanye nencwadi yabo Ukumelana Nentela Yempi: Umhlahlandlela Wokubamba Ukusekela Kwakho Ebuthweni Lezempi. Ngo-1982, u-Ed wasungula iKomidi Likazwelonke Lokumelana Nokumelana Nezintela, elisekhona nanamuhla. Futhi nathi, nge Intando yeningi Manje! Ukusakazwa kwevidiyo, nguJeremy Scahill, intatheli ephenyayo, umsunguli we I-Intercept, umbhali wenani lezincwadi, kuhlanganisa I-Blackwater: Ukukhuphuka Kwebutho Lamasosha Anamandla Kunabo Bonke Emhlabeni futhi Izimpi ezingcolile: Izwe Liyisigodi.
Siyanamukela kini nobabili Intando yeningi Manje! Ed Hedemann, khuluma ngomngane wakho wesikhathi eside uDavid McReynolds nokubaluleka kwakhe.
ED UHEDEMANN: Nokho, ukubaluleka kwakhe ukuthi wayewuphawu lwe-War Resisters League kusukela ngeminyaka yawo-1960 kuya ko-1990. Wayengumkhulumeli obonakala kakhulu. Wayeyisikhulumi esinekhono lokukhuluma. Wayengumhleli, umbhali owesabekayo. Okukhethekile kwakhe kwakungaphezulu, mhlawumbe, amaphepha esikhundla. Wabhala okuningi kwalokho. Ngisho ukuthi wayenayo leyo ncwadi eyodwa, okuyiqoqo lezindatshana. Kodwa futhi wayengumhleli omangalisayo. Wayenemibono ekhaliphile ngokumelene neMpi YaseVietnam, futhi wasiza ukuhlela umbhikisho wokuqala e-United States wokulwa neMpi YaseVietnam ngo-1963.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Ngifuna ukukubuza ngokubamba iqhaza kwakhe embhikishweni wokushiswa kwamakhadi okusalungiswa ophikisana neMpi YaseVietnam e-Union Square. KwakunguNovemba 6, 1965. Abantu ababalelwa ku-1,500 beza ukuzobukela uMcReynolds nabanye beshisa amakhadi abo okusalungiswa, njengoba ekhumbula kulesi siqeshana esivela kumhleli wezincwadi. PBS uchungechunge lwamadokhumentari olubizwa Uhlaka.
DAVID UMcREYNOLDS: Bebethi akukho emthethweni ukushisa ikhadi lakho elisalungiswa. Bakwenze kwaba icala likahulumeni uma ushisa ikhadi lakho elisalungiswa. Futhi ngokuyisisekelo, sathi, โ[Bleep] lokho. Impi iyinto embi kakhulu eqhubekayo usuku nosuku. "
UMPHIKISI 1: Kungani uvumela labo bantu abalapho ukuthi bakhethe phambi kwehhovisi lokuqasha lase-United States? Kungani bengayi eVietnam bayolwa? Kuyihlazo ku-United [engazwakali] ukucosha izibi laphaya.
UMLANDELI: Amakhulu ababhikishi abhekane endaweni eyodwa yedolobha.
UMPHIKISI 1: Ingabe abasekeli i-United States? Ingabe bayi-punk noma yini?
UMPHIKISI 2: [engazwakalayo] ukuya eVietnam.
DAVID UMcREYNOLDS: Yebo, sasishubile. Unabaphikisi yonke indawo abamemezayo, โZishiseni, hhayi amakhadi enu!โ
UMLANDELI: Njengoba amakhadi evutha...
INTATHELI: Kukhona eyokuqala. Bashisa ikhadi lokusalungiswa, okokuqala, likaThomas Cornell.
UMLANDELI: โฆuvalo luyavutha.
TOM I-CORNELL: Kukhona owayengene ngesinyenyela esixukwini, ephethe isilinda esinomfutho.
INTATHELI: Manje kuvela esixukwiniโoh!
TOM I-CORNELL: Asazi ukuthi kwenzekani ngemva kwalokhu. Indiza yoketshezi iza, futhi asazi: Ingabe lokhu kuguquguquka?
DAVID UMcREYNOLDS: Ingabe uphethiloli?
TOM I-CORNELL: Ngabe sizobe sivutha amalangabi namakhadi ethu asalungiswa?
INTATHELI: Njengoba izethameli ze-pacifist zingena ezingomeni zenkululeko, imililo iya ngokuya iba mikhulu. Amadoda amahlanu ayamamatheka.
UMLANDELI: Izingcezu ezimbalwa zephepha elivuthayo ziphikisana nokusalungiswa.
DAVID UMcREYNOLDS: Besingadubuli muntu. Besingaphuli noma yimaphi amafasitela. Sasishisa ikhadi, elalisetshenziswa uhulumeni ukuthumela izinsizwa ezingamashumi ezinkulungwane eVietnam.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Lowo kwakunguDavid McReynolds noTom Cornell, bekhuluma ngalesi senzo sokumelana nempi ka-1965, u-Ed Hedemann.
ED UHEDEMANN: Ikhadi elisalungiswa, yebo.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Ukumelana nekhadi lokusalungiswa.
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo, yebo, ngo-1965, kunjalo. Ikhadi lokuqala lokusalungiswa lashiswa ngo-1964. Futhi kwakufana nokushisa ifulegi laseMelika ngaleso sikhathi. Kudale ukusabela okukhulu kuhulumeni ikakhulukazi. Babengeneme neze ngombono wokuthi amadoda aseminyakeni yokubuthwa ayengeke abe nawo amakhadi awo okubhalisa, ikakhulukazi ukuwashisa esidlangalaleni. Kwakuyintukuthelo nje leyo.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Futhi wajoyina u-Dorothy Day, isishoshovu esidumile se-Catholic Worker futhi umsunguli we-Catholic Worker Movement, ngokumelene nezivivinyo zokuvikela umphakathi.
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo, yebo.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Chaza.
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo, i-United States yayidinga, kanye ngonyaka, ukuthi abantu bakhose imizuzu eyi-10 noma isigamu sehora, into enjalo. Lokhu kusekuqaleni kwawo-'50s. ICatholic Worker, kanye neWar Resisters League nezinye izinhlangano, bazame ukubhikisha eCity Hall Park. Benqaba ukukhosela. Futhi ngo-1955, abangu-29 kubo baboshwa. Kwakungeyena uDavide. Wayengakathuthele eNew York ngaleso sikhathi. Kodwa kamuva uDavid wasiza ekuhleleni imibhikisho emikhulu kakhulu ngo-1959, 1960, 61, ngokuphikisana. Futhi ekugcineni uhulumeni wayeka. Ngisho ukuthi babebaningi kakhulu abantu abenqaba ukukhoseliswa, futhi baluyeka lonke uhlelo.
AMY U-GOODMAN: UJeremy Scahill, wazi uDavid McReynolds iminyaka engaphezu kwamashumi amabili. Khuluma ngethonya lakhe ekuphileni kwakho nokuthi kungani enze umehluko ongaka kuwe.
UJEREMIA SCAHILL: Hhayi-ke, uyazi, Amy, i-United States iyizwe elakhelwe ngokuyisisekelo emangeni akhuluma ngayo. Futhi, niyazi, bobabili uDavid McReynolds kanye nabafowabo bakaBerrigan abangasekho, uPhil noDan Berrigan, bathi amanga amakhulu eMelika ukuthi izikhali zenuzi zisigcina siphephileโamanga amakhulu ezikhathi zanamuhla. Futhi uma ubheka ukuthi ubani othola ukunconywa namahora angapheli wezindaba zekhebulaโngiqonde ukuthi, lapho uHenry Kissinger efa, ngicabanga ukuthi wonke amanethiwekhi azovele avalwe. Futhi, yiqiniso, abaqambimanga abakhulu, abashisekeli bempi abakhulu kakhulu abantu abakhulu kakhulu uma kuziwa ekugubheni izimpilo zabo lapho befa.
Ukube besiphila emphakathini onobulungiswa obusekelwe eqinisweni namaqiniso nomlando wangempela, wonke amanethiwekhi ekhebula ngabe ahlanganisa impilo nefa lika-David McReynolds. Ngisho ukuthi wawunayeโwayengumshisekeli wokuqala wezwe engahlangana naye. Ngivela emkhayeni wamaKatolika oshisekela kwesokunxele. Ngangithonywe kakhulu iSisebenzi SamaKatolika nabakwaBerrigan. Futhi, uyazi, uDavid McReynolds wayengumuntu osobala we-gay socialist pacifist owaphonsa inkatho yakhe, ingxenye enkulu yempilo yakhe, nabahleli bezenkolo, ngaphansi kwe-War Resisters League, okuyinto, vele, engeyona inhlangano. inhlangano esekelwe enkolweni, kodwa, kunalokho, inhlangano yamasonto onke yabantu bazo zonke izinkolo abangenazo izinkolo.
UDavid McReynolds, njengoba u-Ed eshilo, wayenguchwepheshe wamaqhinga. Ngikhumbula esinye sezehlakalo zakuqala engangizibandakanye noDavid kwakungo-1997, ngesikhathi uBill Clinton eqhumisa amabhomu e-Iraq ngokwesilinganiso kanye ezinsukwini ezintathu, ngaphansi kwezindawo okuthiwa azikho impukane enyakatho naseningizimu. . Futhi uDavid wayehlele umhlangano nesekela lenxusa, inxusa laseMelika, kuNhlangano Yezizwe. Futhi empeleni wayemazi njengomhleli wemibhikisho ngesikhathi saseVietnam, futhi nakhu manje wayesephikisana futhi esiza ekubekeni icala lokuthi i-United States kufanele iketule uhulumeni kaSaddam Hussein futhi yandise impi yayo. Futhi uDavid wenza icala elihlakaniphe ngokumangalisayo, lamaqhinga, nelobuchwepheshe ngokumelene nempi. Yebo, wayengalibeka icala lokuziphatha, kodwa lapho uDavid evelele phakathi kwezishoshovu ukuthi wayekwazi ukuphikisana nababizwa ngokuthi abahlakaniphile beqembu lempi. Nangempela wabashiya benkemile. Abakwazanga ukubheka uDavid emehlweni bese bethi, โUnephutha ngalokhu. Babekwazi nje ukuthi, โSizobona.โ Futhi uDavid wayeqinisile ngakho konke ukusebenza kwezempi yase-US ngesikhathi sokuphila kwakhe. Futhi kuyasitshela ukuthi bonke abantu asebenephutha isikhathi eside kangaka manje sebekhuluma ngamakhanda ezindabeni zamakhebula, okuhlanganisa nama-neocons avela kakhulu emlandweni wethu.
Ngakho-ke, uyazi, ยกPresente, David McReynolds! Ubuqinisile ngezimpi zase-US. Futhi kwangathi intsha ingasifunda isibonelo sakho, ngoba sisidinga kakhulu manje.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Bengifuna ukuya ephepheni elingumgunyathi u-Ed Hedemann abelane ngalo nathi, okholelwa ukuthi labhalwa yi-FBI's. I-COINTELPRO ngo-1971 ukutshala ukungezwani phakathi kwamaqembu amelene nempi. Inesihloko esithi โOkwesithathuโฆโฆYini?โ Futhi kubonakala sengathi indiza mbumbulu evela ezishoshovu zeBlack Power okuhloswe ngayo ukuyenga izitabane uDavid McReynolds nabanye abaholi benhlangano emelene nempi ngaphambi nje kombhikisho omkhulu wango-1971 eWashington ngo-Ephreli. Iyaqala, icaphuna, โNgokuka Chief White Fag Dave Mc Reynolds we Lily-white War Resisters Leagueโฆโ FBI Imemo egunyaza ukukhiqizwa kwephephabhuku, lokho kuphawula ukuthi kufanele, icaphuna, โilungiselelwe ephepheni elingamakiwe, elithengiwe ngenjongo yokuthengisa nayo yonke imizamo eyenziwayo ukuvikela i-Bureau njengomthombo wamapheshana.โ Ngaphambi kokuba sikhulume ngalokhu, noma kunjalo, ngangifuna ukubuyela kuDavid McReynolds ekhuluma ngempilo yakhe njengesishoshovu esisobala songqingili, engxoxweni ayenza nomngane wakhe u-Anthony Giacchino.
DAVID UMcREYNOLDS: U-1949 kwaba unyaka obaluleke kakhulu kimi, ngenxa yokuthi lowo kwakuwunyaka engahlangana ngawo no-Alvin Ailey ekamelweni labesilisa e. UCLA futhi nganquma ukuthi ngiwungqingili. Ngangineminyaka engu-19, u-Alvin Ailey eneminyaka engu-18. Wayengadumile. Wayengakabi ngumdansi. Sasihlangana endlini yokugezela, okwakuyindawo yokuhlangana yezitabane UCLA. Futhi ngahileleka no-Alvin. Ngifisa sengathi kade sathandana kodwa asizange. Kodwa ngangimazi kahle u-Alvin. Ngangiye ngiye endlini yakheโcishe kanye ngesonto futhi ngikhulume ngezinkondlo. Wangethula ezinkondlweni ze-EE Cummings, zikaWilliam Carlos Williams, zikaKenneth Patchen. Impela ngangimthanda kakhulu u-Alvin. Futhi u-Alvin wabe eseqhubeka, kunjalo, ukuba abe umdwebi womculo omkhulu, wasungula inkampani yokudansa i-Ailey.
Kodwa ngimkweleta kakhulu. U-Alvin wangisiza ngamukele ukuba yisitabane, ngoba wayengenacala, wayengathukile, engenawo amahloni. Futhi ngangibheke lonke ibhizinisi lobungqingili njengeliyihlazo elijulile futhi elingalungile kakhulu. Futhi u-Alvin wayengumuntu wokuqala engahlangana naye owayemnandi, emuhle, ebukeka, kodwa ebonakala engenacala ngokuphelele, futhi lokho kwangikhulula kakhulu. Lokho kukodwa kwangikhulula ngokuphawulekayo.
Ngicabanga ukuthi ukuzibophezela kwami โโkwangempela ku-pacifism kwenzeka lapho ngizwa u-Bayard Rustin ekhuluma ngo-1949. Wayeyingxenye ebalulekile yomzabalazo wamalungelo abantu ngezindlela eziningi, kanye no-A. Philip Randolph no-Martin Luther King Jr. Wasebenza nabo bobabili. eduze kakhulu. U-Bayard wayengumuntu obaluleke kakhulu wabantu ababili empilweni yami engikukweleta ukucabanga kwami โโnokuhlaziya kwami, futhi u-AJ Muste wayengomunye. Futhi ubuhlobo bami no-AJ kwakungobomunye wabaphathi bakhe. Wayengumeluleki kaMartin Luther King Jr. Wayengumuntu umbutho waseVietnam owahlangana naye. Kodwa lawa kwakungamadoda amabili ayebaluleke kakhulu kimina futhi empeleni ashintsha ukuphila kwami โโfuthi akuqondisa.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Lowo nguDavid McReynolds, ekhuluma ngobudlelwano bakhe no-Alvin Ailey kanye no-Bayard Rustin, isitabane esimnyama esiphumela obala esisize, no-A. Philip Randolph, ukuhlela uMashi we-1963 eWashington noDkt. King. Ed Hedemann, unalo leli pheshana elikhishwe kanye ne FBI I-COINTELPRO idokhumenti. Chaza.
ED UHEDEMANN: I-COINTELPRO yasungulwaโi-Counterintelligence Programmeโyi- FBI ukuzama ukuphazamisa ukunyakaza okulwa nempi nokushiya jikelele. Futhi babekhiqize leli pheshana ngenxa yombhikisho omkhulu ozayo eWashington, owaphumela kubantu abangaba ngu-500,000. Kodwa bamlaye ngezitabane. Baye baheha izitabane uDave Dellinger kanye nedlanzana labanye, ngokwengxenye ukutshala ukungezwani. Kodwa bakhiqize amanye amaflaya. Lesi yisinye esikhuluma ngoDavid phezulu.
Futhi bayakhulumaโimemo yabo iwuhlobo oluhlekisayo. Angikwenziโuma ungakwazi ukukuphasisa? Babhala lokhu. Bathe, โKuyaphawuleka ukuthi leli pheshana libhalwe ngendlela encomekayo ngolimi oluvamile lwe-New Left futhi, ngenxa yalokho, liqukethe inhlamba nenhlamba, ehlotshaniswa ngokungenakuhlukaniswa nabalandeli balo mnyakazo. Siyakuvumela ukufakwa kwenhlamba ngoba ukwenza okuhlukile kuzodala ukuthi amapheshana asole.โ Ngakho-ke, niyazi, lena yindlela ababecabanga ngayo ukunyakaza kwakhuluma. Akuzange kukhulume kanje, kunjalo. Kodwaโฆ
AMY U-GOODMAN: Futhi, Jeremy, njengoba ulalele lokhu, lokhu kuzama ukubukela phansi, ukugoba ukunyakaza okuhlukene, Ama-Black Panthers, I-War Resisters League, ngokumelene nomunye?
UJEREMIA SCAHILL: Yebo, uyazi, enye yezinto engicabanga ukuthi yayimangalisa ngempilo yabo bobabili uDavid McReynolds futhi, wezwa u-Ed ekhuluma, u-Dave Dellinger, i-pacifist edumile, ilungu elidala kunawo wonke lalokho okubizwa ngokuthi i-Chicago 8 icala lozungu kwavela emhlanganweni weDemokhrasi wango-1968 eChicago, ngabe leli khono lingakhubazwa ngamasu omashiqela. UDavid, ekujuleni kwakhe, wayephikisana nokugunyazwa, ezindabeni ezinkulu nasezindabeni ezincane. Futhi ngezinye izikhathi wayenengxabano phakathi kwezinhlangano zezobulungiswa bezenhlalakahle nezokuthula. Uyazi, uDavid wayithatha ngokungathi sรญna i-pacifism futhi, phakathi neMpi YeVietnam, wayezogxeka ukuhlukunyezwa kweziboshwa zempi zaseMelika ngamabutho kaHo Chi Minh. Futhi wayekholelwa ukuthi injongo yakhe eyinhloko kulo mhlaba, njengomuntu owazalelwa e-United States of America, kwakuwukuba enze owakhe uhulumeni aziphendulele.
Futhi, Amy, ngigcina ukubona uDavid McReynolds embuthanweni wendlu yomngane wethu, uMat Daloisio, futhi kwakukhona izishoshovu lapho njengoKathy Kelly, umsunguli weVoices in the Wilderness, owachitha ingxenye enkulu yempilo yakhe nabantu. ezindaweni zempi, kanye noCarmen Trotta, manje obhekene necala lalesi senzo se-Plowshares futhi osanda kuphuma Intando yeningi Manje! Futhi lowo mhlangano wabizwa ndawonye noDavid uhlobo njengomdala, umeluleki ohlakaniphile, owazama ukudingida indlela yokuthatha isinyathelo esiqondile ngokumelene nempi yokuqothulwa kwe-US eYemen. Futhi, kunjalo, ngicabanga ukuthi kufaneleka ngandlela-thile onakho manje CNN kanye namanye amanethiwekhi aqamba izinhlangano ezenza izikhali eziqhumile, isibonelo, ibhasi eligcwele inqwaba yezingane zase-Yemen ezingenacala. Kuyafaneleka ukuthi lokhu kwethembeka kwabezindaba, ekugcineni, ngemuvaโi-United States ibiqhumisa i-Yemen kusukela ngo-2002, u-Amy. U-Barack Obama wayeqhumisa i-Yemen ngezinye izikhathi cishe nsuku zonke, futhi manje, ngaphansi kukaTrump, iyaqhubeka ngaphandle kokuphazanyiswa ngaphansi kwe-Saudi-UAE umfelandawonye. UDavid wayehlale ecacile: Lesi yisibhicongo sase-US esiqhubekayo. Futhi umzamo wakhe wokugcina wokuhlela empeleni wawuhlose ukumisa ukubandakanyeka kwe-US ekuqothulweni kohlanga ekubhujisweni kwezwe elimpofu kakhulu emhlabeni wama-Arab, iYemen.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Ekugcineni, u-Ed Hedemann, uDavid wafa njengekati lakheโkanye nekati lakhe alithandayo, alijova nge-insulin kabili ngosukuโ
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo.
AMY U-GOODMAN: โnaye washona, uDavid waphuthunyiswa esibhedlela.
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo, ngemva kokuba uDavid eyiswe esibhedlela.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Ikati lakhe, uShaman.
ED UHEDEMANN: UShaman wafa, yebo. Kwakubuhlungu nxazonke, kodwa okungenani uDavide wayengazi ukuthi uShamani ufile.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Babesondelene kakhulu.
ED UHEDEMANN: O, ngokuphelele.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Lokhu Intando yeningi Manje!, democracynow.org, I-War and Peace Report. Ngingu-Amy Goodman, oneNgxenye yesi-2 yesikhumbuzo sethu sempilo nefa lika-David McReynolds, umlandeli womzabalazo wesikhathi eside nosocialist lowo isazi-mlando u-Howard Zinn nabanye abaningi abambiza โngeqhawe lenhlangano emelene nempi.โ UDavid McReynolds ushone ngoLwesihlanu eneminyaka engama-88.
Cishe iminyaka engamashumi amane, kusukela ngo-1960 kuya ku-1999, wayeyilungu le-War Resisters League, lapho ayegxile khona ekuqasheni abantu abaphikisayo futhi esiza ukuhlela ukushiswa kwamakhadi okuqala okusalungiswa, waqhubeka nokudlala indima ebalulekile kwezinye imibhikisho emikhulu emelene neMpi YeVietnam. Uphinde wakhankasela ukuqedwa kwezikhali zenuzi. Ngo-1980 no-2000, uDavid McReynolds wangenela isikhundla sokuba ngumongameli njengendoda eyisitabane esobala kuSocialist Party. USA ithikithi.
Manje sizophendukela esiqeshaneni sevidiyo eyenzelwe usuku lwakhe lokuzalwa lwama-80 ngumngane wakhe u-Anthony Giacchino.
DAVID UMcREYNOLDS: Esikoleni esiphakeme, eGeorge Washington High, ngisengumfundi, ngahlatshwa umxhwele izenzakalo zamanje. Futhi ngalandela impi ngomdlandla, ngokuthakasela, imephu ebonisa ukuhlehla noma ukuqhubekela phambili kweRussia, lapho amabutho Ahlangene ayekhona. Futhi ngikhumbula izihloko ezimbili zezindaba. Omunye wabo kwakungu "1,000 Bombers Make Hamburger of Hamburg." Futhi enye kwakuyi-"800 Bombers Blast Bremen." IJalimane yayicekelwe phansi kangangokuthi ayikwazanga ukuvala wonke umonakalo.
Ngakho-ke, ngo-1951, ngihamba eJalimane. Futhi ekuqaleni ukusabela kwami โโkulungile ngokwepolitiki. Ngibheka ukucekelwa phansi futhi ngiyabona ukuthi lokhu kwaba umphumela womkhankaso wonxiwankulu wokufuna amandla, ukuthi isigaba sabasebenzi sahlupheka kakhulu, okuyiqiniso, ukuthi uhlaka lwebhizinisi elikhulu labuyela ebhizinisini. Kodwa kwakuwukubona uBremen, ebona umonakalo, eqaphela ukuthi ngangingumntwana owayejabule kakhulu ngokuwa kwamabhomu, bese ngibona isiphithiphithi amabhomu ayesibangele, ngaba nokuhlangenwe nakho okujulile, okuyiqiniso okungokwenkolo. Ngase ngenyukela esalukazini, ngase-ke ngikhomba amanxiwa, ngase ngithi, โNgiyaxolisa. Ngiyaxolisa." Futhi ngaphuka.
Uhlobo lodlame nempi luhlanganisa izinhlangothi zombili. Kuhlanganisa kokubili amaNazi nalokho esakwenza phakathi neMpi Yezwe II. Futhi kwakuyiphuzu lapho ngathola khona ukuqonda ngempela ngempi: yimina owayewise amabhomu.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Lowo kwakunguDavid McReynolds. Ushone ngoLwesihlanu eneminyaka engu-88.
Ukuze uthole okwengeziwe, siqhubeka nengxoxo yethu nabangane bakaDavid ababili asebenesikhathi eside. Lapha eNew York, u-Ed Hedemann, owayengumngane omkhulu kaDavid McReynolds kusukela ngeminyaka yawo-'70s. Laba bobabili basebenze ndawonye amashumi eminyaka e-War Resisters League emikhankasweni yokuphikisa ukubuthwa nokuhoxiswa kwezikhali. U-Ed ungumbhali we-_War Resisters League Organiser's Manual_, futhi incwadi yabo Ukumelana Nentela Yempi: Umhlahlandlela Wokubamba Ukusekela Kwakho Ebuthweni Lezempi. Ngo-'82, u-Ed wasungula iKomidi Likazwelonke Lokumelana Nokumelana Nezintela, elisekhona nanamuhla. Futhi ngokuhlanganyela nathi Intando yeningi Manje! ukusakazwa kwevidiyo, uJeremy Scahill, intatheli ephenyayo, umsunguli we I-Intercept, umbhali wezincwadi I-Blackwater: Ukukhuphuka Kwebutho Lamasosha Anamandla Kunabo Bonke Emhlabeni, Izimpi ezingcolile: Izwe Liyisigodi, kanye nefilimu eqokwe i-Oscar ngalelo gama.
Siyanamukela nobabili ukuze niqhubeke nale ngxoxo. Ukuthi, kukhona lapho uDavid McReynolds ekhuluma nge-pacifism nokuthi kwakusho ukuthini kuye, ngoba ekuqaleni wayephelele ngokuqhunyiswa kwamabhomu njengensizwa encane kakhulu, yaseJalimane lamaNazi.
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo, impela, yebo. Kwamshintsha lokho. Kodwa kwakungaleso sikhathi soguquko, kusukela cishe ngo-1949 kuya ku-1951, lapho athinteka kakhulu ngokubhujiswa kwempi futhi wayengumkhankasi okhutheleโwayengumgqugquzeli ngisho nangaphambi kwalokho kwezinye izindaba, njenge-Prohibition Partyโwayengumgqugquzeli. Ilungu lalokho, kodwa labe selishiya-kanye ne-Socialist Party, i-War Resisters League, ipolitiki emelene ne-nuclear.
AMY U-GOODMAN: UDavid McReynolds ubeyilungu lesikhathi eside leSocialist Party. Wagijimela Congress lapho, Ed?
ED UHEDEMANN: Wangenela uKhongolose ngo-1968 njengelungu le-Peace and Freedom Party engikholelwa ukuthi u-Eldridge Cleaver, wayehola ithikithi.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Futhi waphinde wangenela umongameli ngo-1980 nango-2000โ
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo, i-Socialist Party, yebo.
AMY U-GOODMAN: - ku-Socialist Party USA ithikithi-
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo.
AMY U-GOODMAN: -njengekhandidethi eliyisitabane elisobala. KwiSenate yase-US, wagijima ngo-2004 ngethikithi le-Green Party.
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Lona nguDavid McReynolds ekhuluma ngokuthi waqala kanjani ukuba yi-socialist lapho esengumfundi.
DAVID UMcREYNOLDS: Ngangena eQenjini lamaSocialist ngokwengxenye ngenxa yezimbongi ezinjengoKenneth Patchen, ababenamandlaโababenamandla kakhulu ezibongweni zabo: โAkekho umuntu ongaba nezinto zabo bonke. Akekho umuntu ongaqamba amanga uma bonke beqanjelwa amanga.โ Ngaphinde ngaba usoshiyali wekilasi lami lezomnotho, okwathi njengoprofesa omuhle wachaza ukuthi ukuntuleka kwemisebenzi okungamaphesenti amathathu kwakuphansi kakhulu owawungakulindela ngaphansi konxiwankulu, futhi lokho kwakudingeka. Futhi ngacabanga ukuthi ukuntuleka kwemisebenzi kwamaphesenti amathathu kwakuphezulu kakhulu. Kodwa ngaba i-socialist ngoba kwangithinta ukuthi i-capitalism iyisistimu engcolile.
Phakathi kwezinye izinto, kwenza ubaba wasebenza njengomkhangisi, lapho ebeyoba ngcono kakhulu uma enza enye into. Ubengancamela ukuba umfundisi. WayengumKristu ozinikele. Wayengumthengisi ngoba kwakumele abeke isinkwa etafuleni lomndeni. Futhi akuzange kumenzele izinto ezinhle. Ukuze abone lokho lesi simiso esikwenzile kuye, esasikwenzile kubantu abaningiโimisebenzi eminingi eyenziwa abantu iyize, futhi bayenza ngoba kumelwe baziphilise ukuze bathole ukudla. Futhi ngifuna umphakathi lapho abantu bekwazi khona ukusebenza kangconoโfuthi bazikhandleโkodwa emisebenzini abayijabulelayo futhi enegalelo emhlabeni obazungezile. Futhi asiphili kulolo hlobo lomphakathi.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Lesi ngesinye isiqeshana esivela kuvidiyo eyenzelwe usuku lokuzalwa lukaDavid McReynolds lweminyaka engama-80 ngumngane wakhe u-Anthony Giacchino. UJeremy, njengoba ulalele uDavid ekhuluma, nathi simbhekile endlini yakhe. Khuluma ngakho kokubili ifilosofi yakhe nokumazi efulethini lakhe elise-Lower East Side.
UJEREMIA SCAHILL: Nokho, ngiyakhumbula ngenkathi umngane wami uCarmen Trottaโngicabanga ukuthi kwakuyoba ngo-1996โengimemela ukuba ngiye efulethini likaDavid McReynolds eLower East Side eNew York ngobusuku baโasanda kumemaโuDavid wayezokwenza lokhu. ngaso sonke isikhathi. Nginesiqiniseko sokuthi u-Ed ubekulemibuthano izikhathi eziningi, eziningi. Wayezomema uhlobo lwe-eclectic, iqoqo elithakazelisayo labantu. Futhi, niyazi, iminikelo yokuphuzwa yayiyoqedwa, kokubili ukuyiphuza nokuyibhema. Indlu kaDavide yayigcwele imibhalo egciniwe, nezithombe, namaphepha, namaphepha, namaphepha. Futhi, uyazi, wayesasebenzisa, ngezinye izikhathi, umshini wokubhala noma iphrosesa yamagama, nakuba kamuva waba umlobeli okhuthele kakhulu osebenzisa ama-listservs amaningi ngezimbangela ezihlukahlukene eziqhubekayo futhi ezama njalo ukuxhuma abantu. Futhi, niyazi, naye wayeyinsizwa eyisidala. Njengoba ngishilo, wayewathanda amarekhodi. Wayengumuntu othanda umculo. Naye wayesesikoleni sakudala. Wayezenzela awakhe amanzi e-seltzer ngo-niyazi, wayethenga amathini amancane, futhi wayengasebenzisi i-SodaStream nanoma iyiphi, niyazi, izimpahla zobandlululo zakwa-Israel. Futhi wayehlala lapho, futhi, uyazi, uDavid wayethanda ukugqugquzela ingxoxo ejulile, kodwa aphinde angenele ngokuthile okuhlakaniphile noma okuhlekisayo. Wayeyingcwetiโfuthi kunzima kakhulu kubantu ukwenza lokhuโukusebenzisa ukubhuqa hhayi ngokucindezela abantu abancane. Ngokuqinisekile uDavide wasebenzisa ukubhuqa njengendlela yokuhlasela abanamandla.
Futhi, uyazi, ngicabanga ukuthi mina no-Ed sizobe singanaki uma singasho ukuthi uDavid unalelihlo lobuciko elimangalisayo. Wayengumthwebuli wezithombe oyimfundamakhwela omuhle ngempela, kokubili ukunyakaza kodwa futhi nemvelo. Ngisenaso isithombe uDavid asithatha sale mbali, le mbali ebomvu ngokugqamile, ebesivele ngandlela thize emvithini, uyazi, indawo yezimboni eDolobheni laseNew York.
Ngisho ukuthi, lo kwakungumfana othanda abantu, othanda ukuphila, kodwa futhi wayazi ukuthi uma abaphethe igunya bethatha ikhono lakho lokuhleka, kuhlanganise nabo, kude, khona-ke bayawina. Futhi leyo ngenye yezinto ngoDavide engiyohlala ngizazisa, ukuthi wayehlekisa, wayengokoqobo, engumuntu. Wayengumuntu owayethi, โIfilosofi yami yezepolitiki ayiphelele. Yonke ifilosofi yezombangazwe inezimbobo kuyo.โ Wayezibona engumfundi oqhubekayo. Futhi yilokho engakubona ngesikhathi sokugcina ngihlangana naye, lapho ngamenywa khona ukuthi nginikeze umbiko mayelana neYemen. Yilokho abesebenzisa izikhathi zakhe zokugcina kulo mhlaba esebenza, kwakuyimpi yakamuva enyantisayo yesibhicongo sase-US.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Ungakwazi ukwengeza kulokho, Ed?
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo, ngingathanda ukugcizelela ukuthwebula kwakhe izithombe. Ngiqonde ukuthi, wayengumthwebuli wezithombe impilo yakhe yonke, ngeminyaka yawo-1950 kuze kube yilapho, lapho esekwazi ukuthatha izithombe. Uneqoqo elihle kakhulu, lapho-izithombe zakhe ezimbalwa ziphezulu mcreynoldsphotography.org futhi I-New York Times obit wayeshilo. Kodwa wayenezithombe ezinhle kakhulu kusukela ngeminyaka yawo-1950s zabantu bomlandoโuMartin Luther King, uBayard Rustin, uRosa Parks, uJayne Mansfield.
Futhi uDavide wayengumpheki, futhi. Ngisho ukuthi, wayengumpheki owesabekayo, hhayi kuphela i-seltzer, kodwa wayedume nge-hummus yakhe enogaliki omningi kuyo. Kodwa wenza izinto eziningi ezimbi kakhulu kulokho.
Ubuye waba yilungu lesikhathi eside le-Bromeliad Society. Futhi into esemqoka ukuthi wayethanda izilwane, izilwane ezithanda ngokuphelele. Amakati ayebaluleke kakhulu kuye. Wayevame ukuba namakati amabili ngaso sonke isikhathi. NguShamani owashona ngemva nje kokukhishwa kukaDavide.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Futhi ukuchaza nje lokhoโ
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo.
AMY U-GOODMAN: UDavide wajova uShamani kabili ngosuku. Wayenesifo sikashukela?
ED UHEDEMANN: Yena. Wayenesifo sikashukela.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Wayenesifo sikashukela.
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo, kabili ngosuku nge-insulin, yebo.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Ngakho-ke, ngenxa yokuthi uDavide wawa, futhi akucaci ukuthi zingaki izinsuku alala phansi endlini yakhe ngaphambi kokuba atholakale, uShamani wayengajovwanga.
ED UHEDEMANN: Cha, uShaman wayengajovwanga. Asazi kuze kube nini. UShaman wayesaphila lapho uDavid etholwa, futhi wabonakala ejabule futhi wajovwa nge-insulin ngaleso sikhathi, futhi wacabanga ukuthi uzophila. Akazange. UPeggy Solomon wayengelinye ikati lakhe, owashona, ngicabanga, eminyakeni embalwa edlule. Ngakho-ke, uPeggy Solomon noShaman babengabangane ababili ayenabo iminyaka eminingi.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Ngakho uDavid wayengumthwebuli wezithombe, futhi wayeyimbongi. Ungafunda kule nkondlo ayibhalele umbhikisho omkhulu we-War Is Over eCentral Park yaseNew York ngoMeyi 11, 1975?
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo. Uthe:
sawubona!
esihogweni esijabulisayo namuhla
ngayo yonke ipolitiki enzima
thengisa uguquko kusasa
umugqa olungile kulelihora
injabulo
namathisela imbali emshinini wakho we-mimeo
noma uyinikeze iphoyisa
bhema / uphuze / futhi
hayi suka
hleka!
sikuzuzile
iminyaka eyishumi yokumasha/ukushaywa/ukuboshwa
bevaleleke emajele/amabutho/imihlangano yobusuku bonke
futhi ngenxa kaNkulunkulu ungakhathazeki
mayelana nokuba serious!
sinempilo yonke phambili
Kufika amatshe,
Fords ukuwela,
U-Kissinger usale kahle,
amabutho azophuca izikhali,
amabhange ukuze avuleke,
amajele ukudiliza.
kusasa isikhathi esanele.
siphila kahle emsebenzini
emi phambili.
kodwa thatha lolusuku
uphuthelwe umhlangano wesitokisi namuhla ebusuku
weqa isikhulumi esizochaza konke
bese uthatha umngane wayolala
esikhundleni
lokhu kwaba ukuphela kwesiqalo
namuhla kusihlwa yisikhathi sephathi edolobheni lonke.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Futhi wakufunda lokho embhikishweni omkhulu we-War Is Over.
ED UHEDEMANN: Awu, angikhumbuli noma wayifunda yini, ngoba ngangingaphandle kwedolobha ngenkathi lokho kwenzeka, ngakho ngageja. Kodwa wakhiqiza lelipheshanaโngiqonde ukuthi iNhlangano Yabamelene Nempi yakhiqiza leli pheshana ukuze lihanjiswe lapho, futhi lanikezwa izinkulungwane.
AMY U-GOODMAN: UDavid McReynolds wayenobuchule obudlulele, Jeremy, futhi uchithe isikhathi endlini yakhe.
UJEREMIA SCAHILL: Yebo, ngisho, uyazi, njengoba u-Ed efunda leyo nkondlo, ngisho ukuthi, yayingabhalwa uDavid eminyakeni embalwa edlule, hhayi emashumini eminyaka edlule, ngoba lowo kwakusengumoya afika nawo. Futhi, niyazi, njengoba ekhula, wayethintana kakhulu nobuthakathaka bakhe kanye nokungakwazi kwakhe ukwenzaโukuhlinza njengoba enza. Ngiqonde ukuthi, khumbula, wayeka umhlalaphansiโu-Ed wayezokwazi kahle, kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi ngo-1999 wayeka umhlalaphansi.
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo.
UJEREMIA SCAHILL: Kodwa-ke, ngisho nasekuthatheni kwakhe umhlalaphansi, wagijimela umongameli, futhi-ke, uyazi, waqhubeka nokuvela, okuyinto, okwakuyinto eyinhloko izishoshovu ezikholelwa ukuthi iyadingeka. Kufanele ube lapho nomzimba wakho. UDavid waqhubeka nokubonakala ngisho enempilo ebuthaka futhi waqhubeka nokuhlela.
Kodwa, niyazi, ngicabanga ukuthi u-Ed uqinisile, futhi ngizama futhi, ukugcizelela ukuthi uDavide wayengeyena umuntu wehlelo eliqinile owayengenayo injabulo ekuphileni kwakhe. UDavid wayeyinsizwa eqinisweni eyayikuthanda ukuphila kangangokuthi wayefuna ukuyichitha elwela izwe elinobulungisa futhi, niyazi, ejabulela ukudla, ejabulela umculo, ejabulela izilwane, ejabulela ukuba nabangane. Konke lokho kuyingxenye yokuba umguquli. Futhi ngiyakuthanda ukuthi kuleyo nkondlo, uyazi, uDavid ukhuluma ngokuhleka, futhi ukhuluma ngokwenza uthando, futhi ukhuluma ngokuba nabangane kanye nokuthatha isikhathi sokuphumula kulo lonke lolu sizi abagunyaziwe abasina phezu kwethu ezweni. emhlabeni, ngoba wayazi, ekupheleni kosuku: Iyini yonke iphuzu lomzabalazo wethu? Kwenzelwa ukuthi abantu babe nokuthula ezimpilweni zabo. Futhi kusho ukuthini ukuba nokuthula ezimpilweni zenu? Kusho ukuthi unenjabulo empilweni yakho. Kusho ukuthi unenkampani yabanye empilweni yakho. Kusho ukuthi uvikelekile ngokwazi ukuthi ungakwazi ukuhamba emgwaqweni ngaphandle kokushaywa umoya. Yilokho impilo yakhe yonke eyayimayelana nokulwela. Futhi kwakuwuhlobo oluhambisana nokuphikiswa ukuthi wayekwazi nokujabulela izinto ezinhle ekuphileni.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Bengifuna ukudlala iziqeshana ezimbalwa ezengeziwe zikaDavid ngamazwi akhe. Lona nguDavid McReynolds echaza umsebenzi wakhe neWar Resisters League, lapho asebenza khona kusukela ngo-1960 kuya ku-1999.
DAVID UMcREYNOLDS: Umsebenzi omude kunayo yonke engake ngaba nayo kwakuwukusebenzela i-War Resisters League, kusukela ngo-1960 kuya ku-1999. Futhi umsebenzi wami washintsha ngokuhamba kweminyaka, kusukela ekubeni unobhala wenkundla waba, ngomqondo othile, umkhulumeli wale ligi.
Ukuba umenzi wempi kusho ukubekela inselele isikhungo sempi nokumelana nazo zonke izimpi, ukuzivikela noma ubudlova, ngisho nezindleko zokuya ejele noma ukubeka impilo yakho engozini. Manje, ukuthi ngingazimisela yini ukubeka ukuphila kwami โโengozini, angazi. Ngingazimisela yini ukuzifaka engozini yokuya ejele? Yebo, ngingathanda. Ngakho-ke, ukuba umphikisi wempi kusho ukubheka impi ngokwayo njengecala elibhekiswe esintwini, hhayi amasosha abambe iqhaza ekulweni. Babanjwe yisakhiwo.
Empini yaseVietnam, kwacaca ukuthi, ngezinga ongathi uhlangothi olulodwa lulungile kanti olunye alulungile, kwacaca ukuthi amaVietnam ayeqinisile. Kodwa lokho akusho ukuthi ngiyothengela amaVietnam izikhali okwesikhashana. Umsebenzi wami phakathi neMpi YaseVietnam wawuwukukhipha amaMelika eVietnam. Bekungekona ukunquma ukuthi amaVietnam azowenza kanjani owawo umzabalazo. Ngakho samelana naleyo mpi ngenkuthalo futhi sahlela ukwenza konke esingakwenza ukuze sinciphise ijubane futhi sivimbele umshini wempi waseMelika.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Ngakho-ke lowo bekunguDavid McReynolds kuvidiyo yosuku lwakhe lokuzalwa lwama-80, eyenziwe ngumngane wakhe u-Anthony Giacchino. Abantu abaningi bangase bangazi ukuthi iyini i-War Resisters League, u-Ed Hedemann. Usebenze naye amashumi eminyaka e- I-WRL. Chaza ngomsebenzi eniwenza ndawonye.
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo, ikakhulukazi indima yami bekungumhleli wezindaba ezinjengokuhoxiswa kwezikhali, ukuqashwa kwabantu okuphikiswayo, ukuhlela indawo. Futhi ngangisebenza nabantu emiphakathini futhi ngisize ekukhiqizeni izinto zokwakha.
UDavid nguyena owakhipha inqwaba yamapheshana nokuhlaziya okwakuzosetshenziswa abahleli bendawo. Wazungeza izwe ekhuluma ngezikhathi ezithile. Futhi waba nengxenye ekuhleleni imiboniso. Saba nombhikisho omkhulu ngo-1976, iminyaka eyi-bicentennial yase-US, lapho saba nohambo olubizwa ngokuthi i-Continental Walk for Disarmament and Social Justice. Kwadabula izwe lonke, ukusuka eCalifornia kuya eWashington, DC, kwakunemizila eminingi eyahlukene, kwathatha izinyanga eziyisishiyagalolunye ukwenza yonke lento. UDavid wayebalulekile ekuxhumaneni nezinhlangano ayezazi, noma ngabe yilezo I-AFSC, I-Fellowship for Reconciliation noma i-Southern Christian Leadership Conference eNingizimu. Wayenekhono kakhulu ekwenzeni labo othintana nabo futhi wayezosiza ekukhiqizeni amaphepha esikhundla salokho. Ngakho yilolo hlobo lwento ayengayenza, kahle kakhulu. Uphinde waqhamuka nemibono yemiboniso nokuthi sisize ukuyenza ngokwamandla ethu ahlukene.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Futhi sekukonke, i-War Resisters League, eyasungulwa?
ED UHEDEMANN: Nokho, yasungulwa ngo-1923 ngemva kweMpi Yezwe I. Kwakunokukhathazeka ngokuthi ukuphela kwendlela yokunqanda izimpiโlokhu kungo-1923โkwakuwukuba amadoda, okwakuyiwo ayelwa, enqabe ukuhlanganyela. empini elandelayo, nokubhalisa nokubhalisa abantu abaningi ngangokunokwenzeka ababengathi, โNgeke ngilwe.โ Akuphumelelanga, kodwa lowo kwakuwumqondo oyisisekelo, futhi abantu abaningi bajoyina. Futhi i-War Resisters League yasiza ukuhlela imibhikisho ngeminyaka yawo-1930s, ama-parade e-No more War nokunye.
Futhi kwakuyinhlangano yezwe, ngoba, kuze kube yileso sikhathi, izinhlangano eziningi zazinesisekelo senkolo. Futhi abagqugquzeli be-War Resisters League, abantu abayiqalileโuJesse Wallace Hughan engumsunguli oyinhloko, uJohn Hayes Holmes kanye nedlanzana labanyeโbabekhathazekileโbabebaningi abasonhlalakahle ababengenayo inkolo, abahlukumezi nabanye. ababekholelwa esixazululweni esingenalo ubudlova kunokuba baqhumise abantu ngamabhomu, futhi babezizwa beshiywe ngaphandle ezinhlanganweni zenkolo. Ngakho i-War Resisters League yayiyihlumela le-Fellowship of Reconciliation, inhlangano yenkolo, nokuzama ukuba ikhaya labo bonke abantu, kungakhathaliseki ukuthi bayakholwa noma cha.
Futhi yakha phakathi kwawo-'20s, '30s,' 40s, futhi ikakhulukazi ngemva kweMpi Yezwe II. Inqwaba yabaphikisi baphuma ejele, abantu abenqaba ukuhlanganyela eMpini Yezwe II futhi bagqunywe ejele. Futhi bandise ububanzi be-War Resisters League ukuthi bangagxili ezimpini eziphikisanayo kuphela, kodwa nezimbangela zempi, kodwa okwakuyingxenye yokusungulwa kwe-War Resisters League. Kodwa babefuna ukwenza imibhikisho eyengeziwe emgwaqweni, ukungalaleli komphakathi, ukusebenza ezindabeni zamalungelo omphakathi ngeminyaka yama-'50s, "Vimbela Ibhomu". Ngakho i I-WRL iqinise ngempela izenzo zayo zomgwaqo kanye nokuhlela komgwaqo, ikakhulukazi ngeminyaka yawo-'60s kanye nama-'70s.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Manje, njengoba usushilo, une, ngaphansi koMthetho Wenkululeko Yolwazi, imibhalo eminingi yokugadwa kwe-War Resisters League, futhi, kulokho, yamakhulu amakhasi kaDavid McReynolds.
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo. Hhayi-ke, lokhu kubuyile maphakathi nawo-1970, lapho kwakunokuningi-kahle, i FOIA kwase kudlule iminyaka embalwa ngaphambili, bese abantu bethi, โKulungile, ngizohamba ngiyolanda okwami FBI amafayela.โ Futhi sakwenzela inhlangano. Wonke umuntu uvuliwe I-WRL Abasebenzi nabo bafaka izicelo futhi bathola amafayela abo, ahlelwa kahle ezindaweni. Kodwa okuthakazelisa kakhulu, okungenani kimi, kwakuyilezo eziku-War Resisters League lapho I-COINTELPRO we FBI wayefuna ukuphazamisa ukunyakaza, hhayi kuphelaโ
AMY U-GOODMAN: Lolu uhlelo lwe-Counterintelligence.
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo, Uhlelo lwe-Counterintelligence lwe FBI. Yonke injongo yako yayiwukuphazamisa inhlanganoโinhlangano emelene nempi, inhlangano elwela amalungelo abantu, noma iyiphi enye inhlangano yabashisekeli benxele, amakhomanisi, amasocialists, njalonjalo.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Futhi ngokuqinisekile walandela ama-Black Panthers, futhi abaningi babulawa, babulawa.
ED UHEDEMANN: Awu yebo. Cha, ngokuphelele. Ngisho, lokhuโlokhu konke kuyingxenye yakho I-COINTELPRO. Kodwa-ke lamaphepha sawathola lapho esabona khona ukuthi abumba lawa mapheshana, ngiqonde ukuthi lezi ziphephetha ezihlasimulisayo ezinolimi oluwubulima, ngisho ulimi lwengane ngempela esingasoze salusebenzisa. Futhi, niyazi, bakugunyazile. Ngiqonde ukuthi ngimangele ukuthi baphume bethi bafaka inhlamba nenhlamba ngoba konke lokho bekuyingxenye yomnyakazo. Uyazi, kufana nokuthi sasifunga njalo uma sivula imilomo yethu. Futhi baโyebo, kanjalo.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Uthole izinkulungwane zamakhasi avela ku- FBI?
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Futhi amakhulu ayekuDavid McReynolds?
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo. Nokho, uDavide wafaka isicelo sokuba athole okwakhe FBI amafayela. Ngisho, bekufanele unikeze inombolo yakho Yezokuphepha Komphakathi futhi ufakazele ukuthi ubunguye, uyazi, uDavid McReynolds, ukuthi bekufanele afakazele ukuthi ungubani, ukuthi bekungeyena nje omunye umuntu ozama ukuthola lolu lwazi. Kodwa-ke, wafaka isicelo sakhe futhi wathola amakhasi angaphezu kuka-400. Ngafaka isicelo sami. Ngikhohliwe engikutholile, kodwa, uyazi, ekuqaleni ngithole amakhasi angama-50. Ngase ngithi, โO, kuthiwani ngalokhu nokuthi na?โ Ngabe sengithola amanye amakhasi ambalwa. Futhi njalo uma ngibuyela emuva, ngangithola amanye amakhasi. Futhi kwakungeyona nje FBI, kodwa kwaba I-IRS, lo CIA, ubuhlakani basolwandle. Ngisho ukuthi wonke lawa magatsha ahlukene ayenamafayela ku-War Resisters League nakuDavid, kunjalo.
Kodwa ikakhulukazi ibika ngalokho ebesikwenza. Futhi babenokunyeโbalinganise abantu, futhi, njengokuthi โusongo lwenguqukoโ noma into efana naleyo, futhi babenabantu abasemazingeni ahlukene okusongela, njengokuthi uma kwenzeka isimo esiphuthumayo, kuye ngezinga lokusabisa, abantu abathile bazoqoqwa. Ayizange isetshenziswe, kodwaโ
AMY U-GOODMAN: Ngakho-ke, lokhu kwakungamashumi eminyaka edlule lapho uDavida enza isicelo sakheโ
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo, maphakathi nawo-'70s.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Ngakho-ke, lokho kusho ukuthi kungenzeka ukuthi bekunokuningi abengenalo irekhodi lakho.
ED UHEDEMANN: Awu yebo. Ngiyaqiniseka ukuthi kuningi okwengeziwe.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Wake wazizwa elandelwa?
ED UHEDEMANN: Ngicabanga ukuthi wayengenandaba. Ngiqonde ukuthi, indlela yakhe yokuhlela, kanye neye-War Resisters League, empeleni yayivuliwe. Besingesabi ukusho esikwenzayo. Besingazami ukukufihla. Besizama ukukhangisa. Besifuna abantu bazi. Akukho esasingakufihla. Ngakho-ke, niyazi, kuyacasula kancane, kodwa akukho esasikufihla, futhi akuzange kusikhathaze. Asizange sichithe isikhathi sethu sizikhathaza ngakho.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Futhi indima ka-AJ Muste noBayard Rustin?
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo, u-Bayard Rustin wayengumuntu owathonya uDavid ekuseni kakhulu. Washo kuleyo vidiyo ukuthi kwakungu-1949 lapho emuzwa khona ekhuluma futhi wathonywa kakhulu nguye.
AMY U-GOODMAN: U-Bayard Rustin
ED UHEDEMANN: Bayard Rustin, yebo.
AMY U-GOODMAN: โumgqugquzeli omnyama, umhleli wemashi ka-1963 lapho iNkosi yakhuluma khona.
ED UHEDEMANN: Yebo, kunjalo, owayekade eyilungu le-Fellowship of Reconciliation, kanye ne-War Resisters League. Futhi u-AJ Muste, owayewuhlobo lwenduna yenhlangano yokuthula ngaleso sikhathi, ngeminyaka yama-'40s kanye nama-'50s kanye nama-60s, ngoba u-Muste wayehlonishwa yizo zonke izinhlangothi. Inhlangano yokuthula bekungeyona into eyodwa ukuthi wonke umuntu avumelane nakho konke. Kwaba nezimpi eziningi. Kodwa wonke umuntu wayemhlonipha uMuste. Futhi u-Muste wakwazi ukubamba ndawonye izingxenye eziningi ezahlukene zenhlangano yokuthula. Futhi ukuhlaziya kwakhe, uDavid wavumelana nokuningi. Ngisho ukuthi ifilosofi yabo yezombangazwe ifana kakhulu. Ngakho waba nethonya elikhulu kuDavide.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Bengifuna ukuya ezikhathini ezimbili zamavidyo kliphu lapho uDavid McReynolds ayengenela umongameli. Lona wokuqala wayengenele ukhetho lwango-2000 lokuba ngumongameli ngethikithi leSocialist Party futhi ekhuluma ikakhulukazi ngomthelela okungenzeka waba nawo eFlorida.
DAVID UMcREYNOLDS: Kunabantu abangivotele ngoba befuna. Kodwa omunye angaphikisa ngokuthi ngokungenela ivoti laseFlorida, inani lamavoti engiwatholile lathipha ukhetho kuBush. Futhi kuyavunywa, bekungashiwo okufanayo nangabanye abathathu abazongenela ukhetho. Kodwa ngicabanga ukuthi lokho ngezinye izindlela kuwumbuzo ongalungile, ngoba umbuzo wangempela engqondweni yami ukuthi kungani u-Gore engazange acele ukubalwa kabusha esifundazweni sonke.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Hhayi-ke, kuyathakazelisa lokho. UDavid McReynolds-lokho kuvela kuvidiyo u-Anthony Giacchino ayenza ngosuku lwakhe lokuzalwa lwama-80. Kodwa, Ed, ungaphawula ngalokhu? Kulungile? Wagijima ngethikithi leSocialist Party. 2000, kunjalo, Bush v. Gore.
ED UHEDEMANN: Angikwazi ukuphawula ngaphezu kwalokho obekushiwo. Ngisho ukuthi, wayekhona-iFlorida yayiyisifunda esibalulekile, futhi kwakunenqwaba yalezi zinhlamvu ezilengayo. Futhi-ke, bagcina-izindaba zazilokhu zibheke lezi zinhlamvu ezilengayo. Kwenzeka nje ukuthi isikhundla sethikithi leQembu LeSocialist, uDavid, sasiseduze impela, ngakho iQembu lakheโiSocialist Party nokugijima kwakhe kwaba sematheni kakhulu, ngephutha nje.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Ngakho-ke manje ake siye ku-2004, ngenkathi egijima kuSenate ngethikithi le-Green Party futhi wabuzwa mayelana nokuphikisa kukaSenator Chuck Schumer emshadweni wezitabane.
DAVID UMcREYNOLDS: Ngicabanga ukuthi kuyacasula ngempela ku-Schumer, ikakhulukazi edolobheni elinabantu abaningi abathandana nezitabane, ukuphuma alwe nomshado wezitabane. Ngicabanga ukuthi kuyadelela lokhu kuye. Futhi angazi-yize lokho kungabalulekile kangako emqondweni wami njengodaba lokubulala abantu nokubulawa e-Iraq. Angiqondi ukuthi kungani ongqingili nabesifazane kungafanele bahlupheke ngenxa yentukuthelo efanayo, ukukhathazeka, izinsizi kanye nezilingo zomshado, owaziyo, abantu bobulili obuhlukile okufanele badlule kuzo. Kungani kufanele sikhululeke kulezi zinkinga? Ngakho-ke, lokho kungudaba mbumbulu, kepha uSchumer uluvikile lolu daba, kanye nabanye abaningi. Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi abantu kufanele bavotele umbhikisho oqinile ngokumelene no-Chuck Schumer.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Ngakho-ke, sizokushiya lapho emazwini kaDave McReynolds. Futhi ngifuna ukubonga izivakashi zethu namuhla, u-Ed Hedemann, ozakwethu osenesikhathi eside nomngane kaDave McReynolds ku-War Resisters League, noJeremy Scahill, intatheli ephenyayo, umsunguli we I-Intercept. Bobabili babazi uDave McReynolds amashumi eminyaka.
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