UNoam Chomsky uxoxisane noLev Chernyi, uToni Otter, u-Avid Darkly noNoa
I-Anarchy: I-Journal of Desire Armed, ngo-Ephreli 1, 1991
Le ngxoxo emfushane yatholwa ngokushesha ngemva kokuba uNoam Chomsky efikile eColumbia, eMissouri ezonikeza inkulumo ethi โThe New World Orderโ ngo-April 1, 1991. Ngeshwa, lapho ukuqoshwa kuqala maphakathi nengxoxo yethu, uNoam wamemezela ukuthi kufanele shiya emizuzwini emi-5, ngakho-ke noma yiziphi izinhlelo zenhlolokhono ehleleke kakhudlwana nebanzi bekufanele zichithwe. Izisebenzi zikamagazini we-Anarchy u-Lev Chernyi, u-Toni Otter, u-Avid Darkly no-Noa babambe iqhaza engxoxweni. Yilokhu esakhuluma ngakho uma ukuqoshwa sekuqalile - njengoba uNowam ephendula umbuzo ophathelene nombono wakhe ngama-anarchists aseNyakatho Melika.
U-Noam Chomsky: โฆ Ngicabanga ukuthi uma ubala inani labantu abangazibheka njengabathintekayo noma abanozwelo uzothola inombolo enkulu kakhulu, kodwa lokhu akusho okuningi, ngoba ukuxhumana kubuthakathaka kakhulu.
U-Lev Chernyi: Bengifisa ukwazi ukuthi ngabe uzama noma yiliphi izinga ukuhambisana nabezindaba ze-anarchist e-US noma eNyakatho Melika?
UNoam: Yebo, ngicabanga ukuthi ngibhalisela okuningi kwakho - ngaphandle komsebenzi kunanoma yini enye engiyicabangayo.
I-Lev: Wake wayifunda i-Fifth Estate, isibonelo?
Noam: Yebo.
U-Lev: Ingabe uyazwelana nombono wabo wokulwa nempucuko?
Noam: Hhayi kakhulu. Ngisho ukuthi bengihlala ngizizwa ngihambisana kakhulu nezingxenye zenhlangano ye-anarchist ezazinentshisekelo futhi zithatha kalula ubukhona bomphakathi wezimboni futhi zifuna ukuwenza ube mahhala futhi ube nenkululeko. Ngakho-ke okungenani yingakho bengilokhu ngithambekele kakhulu esikweni le-anarcho-syndicalist. Angicabangi ukuthi kukhona okunye okunobudlelwano bangempela nempilo eqhubekayo. Kukhona okumele kwenzeke kubantu abayizigidi eziyizinkulungwane ezingu-5 emhlabeni. Ngeke baphile eNkathini Yamatshe.
U-Lev: Wake wafunda okuthile ngoFredy Perlman, nganoma yiliphi ithuba?
Noam: Eminyakeni edlule.
Lev: Njengesibonelo ipheshana lakhe elithi The Continuing Appeal of Nationalism? Usuyibonile leyo?
UNoam: Ngeke ngimangale, kodwa angikukhumbuli kahle ukuthi ngiphawule ngakho.
Lev: Uke wayibona incwadi yakhe ethi Against His-Story, Against Leviathan?
UNoam: Nami ngikubonile lokho, kodwa futhi angisakukhumbuli kahle ukuthi ngiphawule. Uyazi, ingqikithi ethi Against Leviathan...angiqondi ukuthi isho ukuthini ngempela. Impucuko inezici eziningi kuyo. Akusho lutho ukuba yilo noma ngokumelene nalo.
Lev: Ngokwezinga elithile umbuzo we-semantics. Kuya ngokuthi abantu bayichaza ngokuthini impucuko.
UNowam: Yebo, ngezinga impucuko ibandakanya ingcindezelo, impela, uyaphikisana nayo. Kodwa-ke kuyafana kunoma yisiphi esinye isakhiwo senhlalo. Umelene nokucindezelwa lapho.
ULev: Ngike ngabona ukuphawula kwakho ngaphambili lapho ubukhuluma kakhulu ngempucuko yaseNtshonalanga Yurophu. Ukuphawula kwakho kungase kuzwakale sengathi kungase kube khona umzamo othile wokugxeka impucuko jikelele, kunokucabanga ukuthi yonke into ingaphakathi kwempucuko futhi ugxeke kuphela izici ezilandelanayo kakhulu.
Noam: Kodwa ungakugxeka kanjani impucuko? Ngisho, isibonelo, umphakathi we-anarchist uyimpucuko. Inemfundo. Inamasiko. Inobudlelwano bomphakathi. Inezinhlobo eziningi zenhlangano. Eqinisweni, uma kungumphakathi we-anarchist ungahleleka kakhulu. Kungaba namasikoโฆamasiko ashintshile. Izoba nemisebenzi yokudala. Kungayiphi indlela leyo akuyona impucuko?
I-Lev: Uma usebenzisa igama elithi impucuko njengokuchaza lokho okukhule kusukela ekuqaleni kwesifunda-dolobha kanye nokukhula kombuso, noma ukuphikisa lezo zinhlaka zomphakathi zakudala, zasendulo kanye namaqembu asekhona ngokwezinga elithile. ama-niches nama-crannies emhlabeni jikelele, bese futhiโฆ.
Noam: Hhayi-ke, usho ziphi? Ezinye zazo zingcolile kakhulu. Ezinye zezindlela ezimbi kakhulu zengcindezelo nonya zisemiphakathini yangaphambi kobuchwepheshe.
U-Lev: Ngicabanga ukuthi umehluko omkhulu wukuthi izinhlobo zabo zempi nezinye izinto azihlelelwe ukucekela phansi abantu abaningi. Kungaphezulu kweโฆ.
UNoam: Akulona iqiniso! Ngisho ukuthi izinhlobo zabo zempi ngokuvamile zingabulala abantu. Ngokwesibonelo, funda iBhayibheli. Lokho kwakungaphambi kobuchwepheshe, futhi kuyincwadi ebulala abantu abaningi kakhulu ohlwini lwethu lwezincwadi zeBhayibheli, noma ekhona.
ULev: Ngicabanga, engikushoyo futhi, noma kunjalo, ukhuluma ...
UNowa: Lezi kwakuyizizwe eza ehlane.
I-Lev: โฆimiphakathi yakudala noma yakudala esohlangothini lwe-anarchism kakhudlwana lweโฆ.
Noam: Oh, angazi. Uzothola zonke izinhlobo zezinto. Uzothola imiphakathi yesimanje ekhululekile, futhi iphakathi nendawo yomphakathi wesimanje wezimboni.
U-Lev: Ngakho-ke, ngokuyisisekelo, usho nje ukuthi awuboni lutho olubalulekile ekulandeleleni uhlobo lokugxeka impucuko yesimanje ngokombono wokubuyela emuva ekuqaleni kwempucuko.
Noam: Uyazi uma ubuyela ekuqaleni kwempucuko uthola yonke inhlobo yezinto. Ngisho ukuthi yini oyibiza ngokuthi yiziqalo zempucuko? Kude kangakanani emuva, ingabe iNkathi Yamatshe? Isibonelo, bekunezinkulungwane zeminyaka yemiphakathi yabalimi ngaphambi kokwakhiwa kwezifunda zamadolobha, ngaphambi kokusungulwa kokubhala nokunye. Hhayi-ke, uma leyo miphakathi yabalimi ifana naleyo esiyibonayo, iyizindawo ezimbi kakhulu. Imiphakathi yabampofu ingaba nonya futhi ibulale futhi ibhubhise, kokubili ebudlelwaneni bayo bangaphakathi nasebudlelwaneni bayo nomunye nomunye. Isithombe semiphakathi yabalimi njengezindawo ezinokuthula, ezinobungane siyadukisa kakhulu. Kukhona, uyazi, kodwa akunjalo ngokujwayelekileโฆ.
U-Toni Otter: Imiphakathi yabalimi isanda kwenzeka.
UNoam: Kunemiphakathi yabalimi ehlehlela emuva eminyakeni eyizinkulungwane eziyisikhombisa noma eziyisishiyagalombili, ekuqaleni kwezolimo.
UToni: Yebo, kodwa ake sithi iYurophu yezizwe ngaphambi koMbuso WaseRoma. Ngisho, impela, kunengxubevange yonya futhi...noma ake sithi uma ubheka ama-Aztec noma ama-Inca. Manje base bengama impiriyali ngesikhathi sabo...
UNowa: Futhi babengababulali.
UToni: โฆ futhi babebulalaโฆ.
UNoam: Ingxenye yesizathu esenza abahloli bamazwe baseSpain babe nesikhathi esilula kangaka ukuthi babethatha kalula abahlanganyeli ababefuna ukuketula i-Incadom.
UToni: Futhi abanye babahlanganyeli kungenzeka ukuthi babebulala futhiโฆ
UNoam: Kungenzeka, kodwa iphuzu ukuthi bona, uyazi ukuthi ama-Aztec ikakhulukazi ayengabanqobi bakamuva, abanqobi bakamuva, abanonya kakhulu.
UToni: โฆ futhi mhlawumbe babenqobile abantu abathile ababengabazingeli nabaqoqi futhi abanye ababengama-horticulturalists, futhi labo bantu kungenzeka ukuthi, njengoba wawusho, babengama-libertarian ngaleso sikhathi...
Noam: Hhayi bonke.
UToni: ... njengoba manje kuyingxube mayelana nokuthi isiko liyini. Kubukeka kimina ngesinye isikhathi lapho abantu begxeka impucuko bagxeka ukukhula kwezinhlaka zezibalo, kwezinhlobo ezithile zezinhlaka zomphakathi ezikhule ikakhulukazi esikhathini sezimboni zesimanje. Kodwa, uyazi, ungagxeka ubunxiwankulu, kodwa-ke kufanele ugxeke ubunzalamizi, futhi ubeโฆ.
Avid Darkly: Hhayi-ke, kimina kubonakala sengathi ukugxeka ubunxiwankulu nobunzalamizi kugxeka izici zempucuko. Bese kufanele sibheke ithuluzi lokugxeka izinto. Sibheka ukuthi yini esizoyihlunga enqwabeni yomlando ukuze senze ubudlelwano bethu buqhubeke, ubudlelwano bethu obuhlukene kakhulu buqhubeke. Ngabe sigxeka impucuko ukuthi iphakamise ama-Kalahari Bushmen njengesibonelo somhlaba. Ngisho mhlawumbe engxenyeni encane yobudlelwano. Ngisho ukuthi kuyini? Ukugxeka impucuko kuyafaneleka uma kucabanga ukuthi siyiniโฆ.
UNoam: Hhayi-ke, ake sithi amaKalahari Bushmen ayephila ngendlela exakile. Lokho akulona iqiniso, kodwa ake sithi kuvele kuyiqiniso. Besingathini...okungeke kusitshele lutho ngalomhlaba. Izwe elihlukile. Ngiqonde ukuthi kumele uqale, uma ufuna ukuhlobana nezwe abantu abaphila kulo, kumele uqale ngokuba khona kwalowo mhlaba ubuze ukuthi ungashintshwa kanjani.
UNowa: Kulungile, ake sithi siqala ngokuba khona kwalowo mhlaba. Thatha okuthile okunjengokugxeka kukaJacques Ellul kwesu ku-The Technological Society, lapho ubuchwepheshe uqobo bubonakala bunokuphila okufana nenhloko-dolobha, okulimazayoโฆ
UNoam: Uyakukholwa lokho? Angikukholwa lokho. Ngicabanga ukuthi ubuchwepheshe ngokwabo abuthathi hlangothi. Ungasebenzisa ubuchwepheshe ezintweni ezinhle kakhulu.
Noa: Nokho, ngezinga ubuchwepheshe busho ukuthiโฆngokokugxeka kuka-Ellul, uthi ubuchwepheshe obuthuthuka ngaphezu kobudlelwane obuthile bezinto eziphilayo nomdali wabo - kufana nokuthatha isingathekiso semali esuswa ekulawuleni komuntu futhi ithathe isinyathelo. ukuphila kwayo siqu, khona-ke iba amandla okubusa. Kepha ubuchwephesheโฆ.
U-Toni: U-Ivan Illich ku-Tools for Conviviality, isibonelo, ukhuluma ngezinto eziningi ezifanayo, kubonakala sengathi.
UNoam: Kungaba, kodwa kuya ngezikhungo zokuxhumana okukhona kuzo. Ngisho, ngokwesibonelo, umphakathi wenkululeko ungafuna ukusebenzisa ubuchwepheshe obuthuthuke kakhulu obukhona, futhi empeleni ungafuna ukubuqhubekisela phambili. Thatha into efana, thatha ubuchwepheshe besimanje bangempela, njengokuthi, ubuchwepheshe bokucubungula ulwazi. Uyazi, lokho kungasetshenziselwa ukucindezela; ingasetshenziselwa inkululeko. Ngisho ukuthi, ingasetshenziswa, isibonelo, njengethuluzi lokuba neqiniso ... thatha, uthi, ukuzihlela endaweni yokusebenza ... ngisho ukuthi leyo idivayisi engenza kube nokwenzeka ngempela ngabantu abasebenzayo ukuba babe nolwazi lwesikhathi sangempela. ukuze bakwazi ukubamba iqhaza ngokwentando yeningi ekulawuleni indawo yokusebenza nokukhiqiza ngendlela ebucayi. Ngaphandle kwalobo buchwephesheโฆ.
UToni: Kodwa okwakusho kimi ukuthi umsebenzi wethu wanda izikhathi ezine. Baxoshe osobhuku. Bakuhlanganise lokho empilweni yami...
Noam: Kunjalo. Kunjalo, ngoba kungaphakathi ezikhungweni ezikhona. Kodwa ubuchwepheshe ngokwabo babungathathi hlangothi. Ubuchwepheshe obufanayo bebungasetshenziselwa ukwenza intando yeningi emsebenzini. Ubuchwepheshe ngokwabo abuthathi hlangothi. Ungayisebenzisela noma yikuphi...
ULev: Ngokwezinga elithile ungase ukwazi. Kodwa ingabe unayo indlela yokucabangela ukuthi yonke imisebenzi yezimayini neyefekthri engena ekudaleni lolo hlobo lobuchwepheshe lungena kanjani? Ingabe ucabanga ukuthi kungase kube nomphakathi okhululekile ongenzeka lapho abantu besabambe iqhaza ohlotsheni lomsebenzi okungadingeka, uhlobo lomsebenzi wokuhlanganisaโฆ.
UNoam: Kodwa yilokho kanye ubuchwepheshe obuthuthukisiwe okufanele buqedwe. Iningi lohlobo lomugqa wokuhlanganisa lingaqedwa ngokusetshenziswa okufanele kobuchwepheshe obuphezulu, isibonelo amarobhothi. Ngiqonde ukuthi lokho kungaqeda umsebenzi omningi okungafanele wenziwe ngabantu.
U-Lev: Awuboni nhlobo inkinga ngalolo hlobo lobuchwepheshe - amarobhothi esikalini esikhulu - aphume kakhulu ekulawuleni kunesimo manje ngobaโฆ?
UNoam: Lokho kuyiqiniso, impela. Esigabeni esilandelanayo, amarobhothi omphakathi ocindezelayo azosho ukubhujiswa okukhulu. Kodwa umbuzo uthi, yiziphi izikhungo? Amarobhothi ngokwawo awathathi hlangothi. Amarobhothi ngokwawo angasetshenziswa ukuqeda umsebenzi owehlisa isithunzi. Ingase isetshenziselwe ukucindezela abantu. Futhi umbuzo uthi izothuthukiswa kuziphi izikhungo zokuxhumana?
ULev: Ngicabanga ukuthi umbuzo wangempela kimina ungaba ukuthi abantu bazokwazi kanjani ngempela ukulawula lokhoโฆ?
UNoam: Emphakathini okhululekile bazowulawula ngentando yeningi. Isibonelo, thatha iMondragon (okungeyona i-co-operative yangempela, kodwa ingxenye lapho). Ake sithi sineMondragon, isenokulawula kwabaphathi nokunye, kodwa uma besinakho ungacabanga ngalolo hlobo lomphakathi abasebenzi behlangana futhi banqume ukuxosha abaphathi ngokuvuna izinqumo zabasebenzi, kusetshenziswa isikhathi sangempela. ulwazi olutholakala ngobuchwepheshe obuphezulu kanye nokuqeda imisebenzi ehlambalazayo eyehlisa isithunzi ngamarobhothi. Lokho kungenzeka. Okungenani lokho kungaba inhloso efanelekile ukuyisebenzela, futhi bangafuna ubuchwepheshe obungcono kakhulu.
ULev: Ngabe ubona lokho kuyindlela yomphakathi owawuhlelwe ngendlela ekhululekile ukuze ulawule indlela okusetshenziswa ngayo ubuchwepheshe obungakanani? Futhi ukuthi ngeke nje kube sengathi ubuchwepheshe bunomfutho owabo, lapho kungaba nzima khona ukulawula kwangempela? Ngokwesibonelo, njengemoto. Izimoto ziklame kabusha wonke amadolobha emazweni athuthukile ngokwezidingo zawoโฆ.
UNowam: Hhayi-ke akuzona izimoto ezikwenzile; ngabaphathi bezinkampani abaphethe izinkampani zezimoto. Ngisho ukuthi ukususa uhlelo lwezokuthutha zomphakathi e-Los Angeles kwakungesona isinqumo semoto. Kube yisinqumo sabaphathi bakwaGeneral Motors.
Avid: I-Saint Louis yayifana.
Noa: Kodwa, into eyodwa okushoyo ukuthi angikwazi ukuyithenga ukuthi ubuchwepheshe abuthathi hlangothi, ngoba ubuchwepheshe buyinqubo yomlando, ukuthuthukiswa kobuchwepheshe. Ngakho izimoto zathuthukiswa njengebhizinisi elikhulu, okungukuthi uHenry Ford noma ubani, ukuze zinikeze izidingo ezithile ngendlela ethile. Ngamanye amazwi kune-ajenda yezepolitiki ngemuva kokuba khona kwemoto. Futhi leyo ajenda iholela ekungcolisweni komhlaba. Kuholela ekuhlukaniseni abantu komunye nomunye.
UNoam: Kuleli qoqo lezikhungo liyakwenza. Kodwa akudingekile ukuba kwelinye iqoqo lezikhungo. Njengoba ubuchwepheshe buthuthuka buyingxenye yohlelo lwezikhungo zomphakathi ngakho-ke bunomlingisi othile kuye ngalezo zikhungo. Lokho akuyona inkinga kubuchwepheshe. Lokho kuyinkinga ezikhungweni zokuxhumana. Akubona bonke ubuchwepheshe, njengezikhali, ezingenakho ukusetshenziswa okuwusizo. Kepha, ake sithi, izimoto, amarobhothi noma ukucubungula imininingwane, lapho ungaba nobuchwepheshe bokukhulula. Banamandla okukhulula.
U-Avid: Kubukeka sengathi ukube abantu bebethembekile ezindabeni zezemvelo besingakwazi ukubeka ibhuleki kwezobuchwepheshe ngokuya ngeโฆ
UNoam: Akukhona lokho kuphela, kodwa into kuphela engaxazulula izinkinga zemvelo ubuchwepheshe obuthuthukisiweโฆ.
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Ngalesi sikhathi inhlolokhono yaqedwa njengoba uNoam esehamba ezilungiselela ukuhlangana nabahleli besifundo sakhe neminye imicimbi eyayihleliwe eNyuvesi yaseMissouri. Iqembu elishicilela iphephabhuku i-Anarchy, C.A.L., lalingomunye wabaxhasi abaningi benkulumo kaChomsky. Ingxoxo ekuqaleni yavela ku-Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed #29, Summer 1991, amakhasi 27 & 29.
I-ZNetwork ixhaswa kuphela ngokuphana kwabafundi bayo.
Nikela