Nangona uluntu Amadabi phakathi kweNew York Times kunye noMongameli uDonald Trump, ezi zimbini zibonakala ngathi zikwiphepha elifanayo malunga nengxaki eqhubekayo eVenezuela. Kwiveki ephelileyo, abalawuli babhengeze ukuba "bonyule" uMongameli uNicolas Maduro kunye namanye amagosa aseVenezuela, bamisa impahla yabo yase-US kwaye bathintela abantu baseMelika ukuba benze ishishini nabo. IThe Times yabiza ukuba yeyona ndlela ilungileyo yokujongana norhulumente waseVenezuela. I-Times, nangona kunjalo, iqhubekile ibiza iYurophu kunye nezinye izizwe ukuba zijoyine into ebibiza ngokuba "kukuvalelwa yedwa" kweMaduro. Yayilukhetho lwamagama olunomdla. Elo yayiligama elalisetyenziswa kwiintsuku zokuqala zokuthintelwa kwezoqoqosho e-US ngokuchasene neCuba. Kuyathakazelisa ukuba akukho namnye kwaba badlali - iTump okanye iNew York Times - ibiza ukuba i-boycott i-oyile yaseVenezuela, edla kakhulu ngabantu baseMelika.
Ukuhlasela kwe-US ukuya eVenezuela akuyonto intsha. IWashington, phantsi kweeDemokhrasi kunye namaRiphabhlikhi, yamcekisa ongasekhoyo uMongameli uHugo Chavez kunye nenguqu yakhe yaseBolivarian. UChavez wayekonwabele ukuyincamathela eWashington kwaye wajonga uhlaselo ngalunye ngakuye njengebheji yembeko kumzabalazo wakhe wokulwa ne-Yankee impiriyali. Kodwa owangena ezihlangwini zikaChavez, uMaduro, akanalo phantse uthando okanye intembeko phakathi kwabantu baseVenezuela kunye nemikhosi eqhubela phambili kwiLatin America yonwatyiswa nguChavez. Kwaye izenzo zikaMaduro zakutsha nje ziye zaphazamisa nakwamanye amahlakani asondeleyo kaChavez.
Ngomhla wama-30 kuJulayi, urhulumente waseVenezuela uye wabamba unyulo lwendibano yokumisela ngokutsha umgaqo-siseko welizwe. Ivoti yabanjwa emva komyalelo okhutshwe nguMaduro. Kwakutheni ukuze oko kube yimfuneko kwakudida nakwabo babesakuba ngabaxhasi bakaChavez, njengoko umbutho waseBolivarian ubusoloko ubhiyozela umgaqo-siseko wawo njengoxwebhu lwenguqu olucokisekileyo nolucokisekileyo. Kubabukeli abaninzi abanamava, wonke lo mcimbi waphinda wazama ukumanyanisa igunya. Ivoti yendibano yaliwa ngabantu abaninzi baseVenezuela kwaye xa iziphumo ezisemthethweni zazibhengezwa, kwacaca ukuba ubalo luphazanyisiwe. Kubonakala ngathi urhulumente ngekhe wayiphumelela ivoti, nto leyo ebangela ukuba abantu barhanelwe ngakumbi.
Imikhosi kaMaduro nayo iqhube ugqogqo ukubamba abantu abaphikisayo kwaye zombini imikhosi karhulumente kunye nemikhosi ephikisayo baye babandakanyeka kwizenzo ezibulalayo ngexesha loqhanqalazo. Kufuneka kucaciswe ukuba uMaduro ulawula umkhosi welizwe kunye nemikhosi yezobuntlola kunye nezo zikude kakhulu kuzo zonke izihlwele ezidityanisiweyo zabachasi bakarhulumente. Ukuba iUnited States ixhasa ngemali kwaye ixhasa ezinye zezinto ezimbi kakhulu zenkcaso eVenezuela yinyani. Kukho imbali ende yokugxuphuleka kweWashington kwimicimbi yaseVenezuela.
Kodwa ayilobali lonke elo. Uninzi lwabantu baseVenezuela abaqhelekileyo, kubandakanya abaqhubela phambili kunye nabashiyekileyo, badiniwe ngurhulumente kwaye abafumani nkxaso okanye nkxaso-mali kumaqumrhu aseMelika anomthunzi. IVenezuela inika umngeni wokwenyani kwimikhosi eqhubela phambili kwilizwe nakwiLatin America ngokubanzi. UChavez wayedume kakhulu, njengoko yayinjalo intshukumo yakhe. Amaqela e-Pro-US athatha amandla eVenezuela yinto enokwenzeka ngokwenene kwimeko yokuwa kukaMaduro.
Ukuxoxa ngale meko inzima, ndidlan' indlebe negqwetha u-Eva Gollinger kule veki kwi-Intercepted. Wayengomnye wabalandeli bakaHugo Chavez ababalaseleyo, wayesondele kakhulu kumongameli ongasekhoyo kwaye uyazi uninzi lwabadlali baseVenezuela, kubandakanya noMaduro. Ungumbhali weencwadi ezininzi, kubandakanywa iKhowudi yeChavez esekwe kumaxwebhu awafumanayo achaza ukungenelela kwe-US eVenezuela, kubandakanywa ubhukuqo olufutshane oluchasene noChavez ngo-2002. kwi Intercepted.
Mamela udliwanondlebe apha:
UJeremy Scahill: Eva Golinger, wamkelekile ukuba Intercepted.
UEva Golinger: Enkosi ngokuba nam, Jeremy.
JS: Ngoku ininzi into endifuna ukuyithetha nawe. Ndifuna ukuthetha malunga nokugxeka kukaMaduro okuvela ngakwesobunxele, kungekhona nje eVenezuela, kodwa kwenye indawo emhlabeni. Kodwa ndifuna ukuqala ngokubuza impendulo yakho kwinto eyandayo ngathi luhlobo lokuthumela imfazwe kuLawulo lweTrump. Iingxelo zivela kumcebisi wakhe wezokhuseleko lwesizwe, u-HR McMaster, ngoku banyule uMaduro. INew York Times ithi ungowasenkampini ngokwengqondo okanye buqu yabantu abafana noKim Jong-un kunye noBashar al-Assad. Impendulo yakho kwinto ephuma kolu lawulo nakwiNew York Times malunga nemeko yaseVenezuela.
UMZ: Kubekho ukunyuka okuqhubekayo okuphuma kurhulumente wase-United States ngokuchasene norhulumente waseVenezuela, okoko uHugo Chavez wayelawula. Kwaye sikubonile ukwanda kule minyaka idlulileyo njengoko urhulumente waseVenezuela uye wagrumba nzulu ngemodeli yabo yeengcamango, engqiyame ngakumbi kolu manyano luchasene nama impiriyali kumazwe ngamazwe, kokukhona bezivulela kumazwe afana neRussia neTshayina kwaye. Iran njengabalingane babo borhwebo. Kwaye ke ngokubanzi, ndithetha, ukuthatha isikhundla esichasene ne-US
Ke ayisiyonto intsha, yinto nje yokuba - ithe ngqo ngoku. Ndicinga ukuba uninzi lwentsebenziswano ngaphambili ekuthunyelweni kwe-United States lwenziwa ngakumbi ngendlela ephantsi.
Ndithetha ukuthi, yayinguMongameli Obama owabhengeza iVenezuela njengesisongelo esingaqhelekanga nesingaqhelekanga eUnited States kwaye wabeka uhlobo lokuqala lwezohlwayo eVenezuela ngokusemthethweni. Kwaye oko kwakuyiminyaka nje embalwa edlulileyo. Kwaye ezo zahlaziywa kulo nyaka ngaphambi kokuba uTrump abe nokuqonda ngokupheleleyo okwenzekayo. Ngoko ngokwenene ibe kukunyuka okuqhubekayo.
Ukususela ngexesha uChavez wanyulwa okokuqala ngo-'98 kunye naloo minyaka yokuqala xa akazange ahambelane noko i-US yayifuna kwaye ihlala ikhona eVenezuela njengelizwe lomxhasi kulapho i-US ixhasa ubhukuqo-mbuso ngokuchasene noChavez ngo-2002. Kwaye emva koko olu hlobo lobundlobongela lwaqala ukwanda ngokuhamba kweminyaka.
Ke, ndiyathetha, ngoku sibona nje uhlobo lwesiphelo salo kunye nenyaniso yokuba babopha ngaphezulu. Kodwa, ekugqibeleni, ubudlelwane phakathi kwala mazwe mabini buhlala bufana. IVenezuela ngomnye wababoneleli abaphambili be-oyile e-US ndiyathetha, bubudlelwane borhwebo. Zixhomekeke kwezinye. Kwaye ekugqibeleni, kukho i-rhetoric eninzi emva naphambili. Kwaye, ewe, ngokuqinisekileyo kukho ukunyuka kwayo ngoku phantsi kukaTrump ngenxa yokuba abantu baloluhlobo - abatyhala oku kunyuka, ngoku, abanendlebe kaTrump-ngawona macandelo aphendulayo eqela leRiphabhlikhi. Ngokomzekelo, uMarco Rubio.
Ndithetha ukuthi nantso into ebebeyifuna. Bajonge indlela yokutyhala utshintsho lolawulo eVenezuela. Kodwa eneneni ayinanto yakwenza notshintsho kumgaqo-nkqubo. Ibe luhlobo lomgaqo-nkqubo welizwe laseMelika ukuya eVenezuela ukusukela kurhulumente weChavez.
JS: Uthethe ntoni ngentetho kaJeremy Corbyn kule veki, apho athe ugxeka ubundlobongela macala onke?
UMZ: Ewe ndithetha ukuba sisiqwenga esikhulu sebali ebesilahlekile kwinto ebisenzeka eVenezuela. Uyabona kakhulu, ndithetha ngokukodwa apha e-US - kwi-New York Times, kwi-Washington Post, kwi-Wall Street Journal, enye i-media CNN, i-NBC - uva kakhulu malunga nolu qhankqalazo oluchasayo lucinezelwa ngurhulumente kodwa awufumani mfanekiso upheleleyo.
Kuba ngelixa kukho ukusabela kombuso okwenzekayo, kukho ingcinezelo ngerhasi yeenyembezi kunye neembumbulu zerabha, awuliboni elinye icala layo, lelokuba ayilulo uqhanqalazo lwedemokhrasi olunoxolo ncam. Kukho amaqela amancinci. Ndithetha ukuba, kukho iinxalenye zenkcaso eVenezuela esebenza ngokwesakhelo sedemokhrasi, kodwa kukho iqela elinobundlobongela eliye laphuma kulawulo. Ayinangqondo. Ndiyathetha, apho basebenzisa i-Molotov cocktails, iibhombu zasekhaya kunye nezixhobo, kwaye bazisebenzisa ngokuchasene nemikhosi yezokhuseleko karhulumente.
Ke ndithetha ukuba, ndihlala ndicinga ngayo, ukuba oku bekusenzeka eWashington DC okanye nalapha kwizitrato zaseNew York apho ndikhoyo, ndithetha ukuba, ibingazukuhlala ngaphezulu kweyure. Ndithetha ukuthi, ukuba besinaloo ndawo batshisa izakhiwo, batshisa iibhasi, batshisa abantu - amaxesha amaninzi abantu abangenatyala. Ukuza kuthi ga ngoku ubuncinci, into esele iphandwe ngamagosa karhulumente, ukuba yiofisi yomtshutshisi woluntu eye yagxeka urhulumente waseMaduro kutshanje kukuba linani elilinganayo lokufa kumacala omabini linokuthi libalelwe kubaqhankqalazi abanobundlobongela - kwezinye. ukuzenzakaliswa kwetyala labo okanye kwabo babukeleyo abamsulwa, okanye ngokuchasene namapolisa okanye imikhosi yabalindi belizwe, emva koko abo bakwicala likarhulumente. Asikokuzithethelela nangayiphi na indlela; kukubonisa nje umfanekiso ochaneke ngakumbi wento eyenzekayo.
Kukho ubundlobongela ngamacala omabini kunye ngokubanzi, ndithetha ukuba, ubunkokeli obuchasayo - ubunkokeli obuchasene norhulumente eVenezuela - baye bathandabuza ukuphuma baze bagwebe ngokupheleleyo ezo ntlobo zoqhanqalazo olunobundlobongela. Enyanisweni, bebesoloko bebakhuthaza. Ngenxa yokuba babone njengoluhlobo lwale ndlela yokutshisa izitrato ukunyanzela urhulumente ukuba-ndithetha ukuba, ngokubanzi into ebebeyikhangela kukuba uMaduro arhoxe, ngenxa yokutshintsha kolawulo, abangakhange baphumelele.
JS: Ndifuna ukukubuza ngokuthe ngqo ukuba uyakholelwa na ukuba olu voti lwakutshanje lwendibano yovoto kazwelonke - uyakholelwa ukuba leyo yayiyivoti esemthethweni, ekhululekileyo, enobulungisa kwaye amanani abhengezwe ngurhulumente achanekile?
UMZ: Kukho izinto ezininzi ezibonisa ukuba ibingelovoti ekhululekileyo nelungileyo - ukuba izibalo azichanekanga. Kodwa kukho esinye isiqwenga saloo nto esoloko ilahlekile kulo naluphi na uhlobo lwencoko ejikeleze loo nto. Oko kukuthi ekugqibeleni, akuzange kube namsebenzi kuba baqhubela phambili nolu lonyulo lwabathunywa kwindibano yovoto ukuze baphinde babhale umgaqo-siseko owawusele ungomnye wemigaqo-siseko enconywa kakhulu ehlabathini owathi wenziwa wabhalwa ngumbutho omkhulu. Inkqubo evulelekileyo yothatho-nxaxheba eyayikhokelwa, enyanisweni, nguHugo Chavez ngo-1999. Ke ngoko kwakukho imibuzo emininzi, kuquka neyam, yokuba kutheni le nto yayiza kuba yimpendulo kwiingxaki zaseVenezuela ngoku xa sasisele sinomgaqo-siseko apho owawubonakala unjalo. equka konke okwakuyimfuneko ukuqhubela phambili kwelo lizwe ngokwamalungelo oluntu.
JS: Ngoko kwakutheni ukuze benze oko?
UMZ: Ewe ngomnye wemibuzo emikhulu. Ndithetha ukuthi, ekugqibeleni, loo voti yayimalunga nokukhetha izileyiti zabantu ababesele betyunjwe ngumbutho karhulumente ukuba bathathe inxaxheba ekubhaleni ngokutsha umgaqo-siseko. Akukhathaliseki, ekugqibeleni, ukuba bafumene iivoti ezingaphi. Inyani yokuba la manani anokuthi adityaniswe ngurhulumente linyathelo elingenangqondo kwaphela kwicala labo kuba bebezama ukuma phambi kweqela eliphikisayo eliqhube i-plebiscite engaqinisekanga nengekho semthethweni kwiiveki ezidlulileyo apho bathi bafumana ngaphezulu kwesixhenxe. izigidi zeevoti ezithi abafuni ukuba le nkqubo yenzeke.
Ngoko ngokwenene yayiluhlobo nje lokubonisa emva naphambili phakathi kwamacala omabini, ngokwamanani. Kodwa ngekungekho nto ukuba urhulumente ufumene iivoti ezizizigidi ezine kunyulo oludlulileyo nge-30 kaJulayith, ibisaya phambili. Ngoko ke akunamsebenzi. Ndithetha ukuthi, bebesenza njalo.
JS: Ewe, ibalulekile kuba abantu abadlala ngeevoti - olo luhlobo lwentshukumo yobugunyathi bokwenza amanani evoti. Uyazi, uSaddam Hussein wayedla ngokuphumelela ngeepesenti ezili-101 zevoti. Ngoku abantu-uqikelelo lwam luya kuba kukuba yena, ngenxa yobume bengcinezelo e-Iraq, ukuba mhlawumbi wayeya kuphumelela kunyulo oluthile. Kodwa ingcamango yokuba uya kuyiphazamisa ngokupheleleyo ijongela phantsi ngokupheleleyo ingcamango yokuba amandla akho angamandla edemokhrasi. Hayi?
UMZ: Ngokuqinisekileyo. Ngokuqinisekileyo. Kodwa, kwaye akukho mathandabuzo, ndithetha ukuba, kubonakala ngathi amanani afakwe ngaphezulu kwesigidi seevoti, kubabeka kumda wento etyholwa ngabachasi ukuba bayifumene kwi-plebiscite yabo engekho semthethweni. Ke ibikukuthi, "sinokungaphezulu kunawe ngoko ke sinegunya elisemthethweni."
Kwaye kum, iphazamisa kakhulu kuba iVenezuela ukususela ngo-2004 iye yaneyona nkqubo yonyulo olungenambumbulu, kunye noomatshini bonyulo be-elektroniki abaxhaswa ngephepha lokuvota kunye neentlobo ezininzi zamanyathelo endleleni yokuthintela ubuqhetseba obunje: iminwe, engenakucimeka. i-inki, ukusayina incwadi yokubhalela — uyazi, apho ungena khona, ubonisa ikhadi lakho lesazisi, likhangelwa ngokuchasene nolwazi olukwincwadana. Kwaye ndithetha ukuba, uhamba ngawo onke la manyathelo. Kolu lonyulo luthile, phantse zonke ezo zapheliswa. Babengenazo iincwadi zokubhalela. Zazingenayo i-inki engacimiyo. Bekungekho matshini angatshintshiyo weminwe yonke. Ke, kukho ubungqina obuninzi obubonisa ukuba ivoti - ngokuqinisekileyo inani belinokubakho. Kwaye oko kulishwa kuba ibiyinkqubo yonyulo ethembeke kakhulu kwaye ngoku ibekwe emthandazweni.
Kwaye into malunga nayo, uJeremy, kukuba kulo lonke unyulo oluchasayo olulahlekileyo malunga nolu tshintsho lwaseBolivarian okanye umbutho weChavez kwaye ngoku urhulumente waseMaduro, bahlala bekhala ubuqhetseba. Yayingakhathali nokuba le nkqubo yayingangeni bullet. Ke ngoku, sisithi ubuqhophololo, kwaye inokuba bubuqhophololo, kubonakala ngathi yilahleko enjalo kwicala likarhulumente. Bekufanele ukuba bawamkele nawaphi na amanani abanawo, kwaye bathi, "Jonga, phakathi kwabo bonke obu bundlobongela kunye nale ngxaki yezoqoqosho, besisakwazi ukufumana iivoti ezimalunga ne-6.6 yezigidi." Ndithetha ukuba oko kufanele kube kukubonisa amandla.
Kodwa ngelishwa bayithatha le ndlela kwaye ngoku kukho indibano ebambeleyo endaweni eyi-supra, amandla awongamileyo ngoku abhengeze ukuba baya kuba segunyeni ubuncinci - okanye mhlawumbi ubuninzi - beminyaka emibini, eyi-1999, emva kokuba uChavez eqhubekile. kwiqonga leqela ngo-1998 ukuze baphinde babhale umgaqo-siseko. Wonyulwa sisininzi ngokusekelwe kuloo nto njengenye yezenzo eziphambili aza kuzithatha. Kwaye kwavotelwa emva kokuba enyuliwe, ukuba abantu bafuna ukuqhubeka na okanye hayi. Ngaphezu kwama-70 ekhulwini abo babenenxaxheba bathi ewe. Emva koko banyula amalungu. Emva koko kwenziwa ngale ndlela ivuleke kakhulu, neselubala. Uyazi, kukho iidrafti zomgaqo-siseko ezigqithisiweyo kwaye zaxoxwa eluntwini. Kwaye emva koko kwafakwa kwenye ivoti ukuba ivunywe ngokwenene ngabantu kwinqanaba likazwelonke.
Ke ndiyathetha, siwaphosa phantse onke la manyathelo ngeli xesha kwaye yathatha iinyanga ezine, ibinomyalelo weenyanga ezine. Kwaye yayingeyiyo yonke into ephezulu, ukuba inokuba ngumenzi-mthetho kunye nomenzi welifa kunye nomnyanzeli, nto leyo siyibonayo ngoku. Yiyo loo nto kukho inkxalabo enkulu evela kubantu abafana nam apho ndisithi, “Khawume kancinci, kwenzeke ntoni kwisakhelo sethu sedemokhrasi esithe sagcinwa ngalo lonke eli xesha, ngaphandle kokuqhekeka okuninzi kwinkqubo indlela?” Ngoku sibona ukugqabhuka okukhulu.
JS: Ewe-kwaye andazi nto malunga namalungu osapho lukaMaduro kunye neziqinisekiso zabo, kodwa imbono nje yokuba unonyana wakhe kunye nenkosikazi yakhe ngoku bayinxalenye yale ndibano, idityaniswe nento ebonakala ngathi yinto ecacileyo yokukhohlisa amanani, nokuba mhlawumbi ngokungeyomfuneko njengoko usitsho. Ndiyathetha, ubuhle obulapho bubi kakhulu kuMaduro.
UMZ: Kanjalo. Ii-optics ziyoyikeka. Kodwa kuya kufuneka uqonde ukuba urhwaphilizo kunye nobudlelwane yinxalenye yoluntu lwaseVenezuela. Ndithetha ukuba lilizwe elivelisa ioli. Iyamangalisa, kuba xa uHugo Chavez waphumelela ngo-1998, izithembiso zakhe ezibini eziziintloko ukongeza kumgaqo-siseko zazisusa ubuhlwempu norhwaphilizo. Ke, ndiyathetha, ayikuko ukuba urhwaphilizo lwanyamalala phantsi kweChavez. Abanye banokuthi yanda. Kodwa ekubeni ndingaphakathi, ndingatsho ukuba uChavez yayingamandla alawulayo. Wayengumntu owayenganyanisekanga yena ngokwakhe, nangona abaninzi ababemngqongileyo babenjalo. Kodwa oorhulumente ababekho ngaphambi kokuba anyulwe babenobuqhophololo. Ndiyathetha, yiloo nto abantu babecekiseka kakhulu kuhlobo lwenkqubo yamaqela amabini eyayikhona eVenezuela ukususela ekuweni kobuzwilakhe bokugqibela ngo-1958, kwaye babefuna ukwahlukana nayo.
Ukuqala kwam ukuya eVenezuela ngowe-1993, elo lizwe laliwohlokile. Kwakukho ingxaki yezoqoqosho, imali yayiphantsi kwaye ukunyuka kwamaxabiso kwakunyuka. Kodwa ndithetha ukuba, zininzi izinto ezenzekayo ngoku, yiyo loo nto ingumnqa. Kwaye kwabakho ukunqunyanyiswa kwamalungelo omgaqo-siseko. Kwakukho ixesha lokubuya ekhaya. Kwanyanzeleka ukuba kubizwe umkhosi. Ndiyathetha, intlupheko yabo ikhule yaya kutsho kuma-80 ekhulwini, uyazi? Kwakukho ulawulo oluphezulu kubutyebi be-oyile yelizwe kunye neshishini le-oyile nangona i-oyile yenziwa ilizwe ngo-1976.
Ngoko xa abantu bavotela uHugo Chavez kunye nale ngcamango yemvukelo yaseBolivarian, bafuna ukukhululeka kwinkqubo yokonakala. Ke into yokuba ngoku luhlobo lokuza komjikelo opheleleyo kwaye sibona ulwahlulo luphinda luvela, urhwaphilizo lusanda, amaqhinga okucanda ayenzeka, uhlobo lokucinezela abantu abaphikisayo, intlupheko eyandayo, ukunyuka kwamaxabiso, ukwehla koqoqosho. Kwakhona, ndiyathetha, xa umntu eyijonga kwaye athi, "Ke, ngaba esi sisiphelo selizwe elinesiqalekiso esikrakra seoli?"
JS: Kulungile, kwaye bendifuna ukukubuza malunga naloo nto. Esinye sezigxeko zokuba bobabini uNaomi Klein kunye noNoam Chomsky - kwakhona, la ngamazwi aseMntla Melika - kodwa enye yezikhalazo zabo kukuba kukho oku kunyanzeliswa kakhulu kwingeniso yeoli kwaye yinxalenye yento ethe yaphembelela iinyani ezichasene nedemokhrasi. sibona kusenzeka kwiindawo ezithile zemeko eVenezuela.
UMZ: Ngokuqinisekileyo. Kodwa ndiyathetha, kwakhona, akukho nto intsha. Yindlela elisebenza ngayo ilizwe kumashumi eminyaka. Yile nto kanye ngaphambili, uninzi lobutyebi beoyile bebungena kwiipokotho ze-elite. Kwaye phantsi kwaba rhulumente, uChavez, uMaduro - uMaduro uye wazama ngokusisiseko ukuqhubeka, ngokungasebenziyo, imigaqo-nkqubo yentlalo eyenza uChavez athandeke kakhulu. Kodwa uChavez, naye xa wangena kulawulo, ioyile yayikwi-7 yeedola ngomphanda. Ke ndithetha ukuthi, ayikukuba bebesoloko benayo le -$100-mphanda ukuze baphumelele elizweni. Amaxabiso eoli enyuka ngokuthe ngcembe kule minyaka ngenxa yeemfazwe, uyazi, i-US yayizibandakanya kuMbindi Mpuma, kunye nendima eyadlalwa yiChavez, iVenezuela kunye namanye amazwe kuhlobo lokuvuselela i-OPEC, apho iVenezuela. wayelilungu elisungulayo. Kwaye baqala ukufumana ixabiso le-oyile kwaye bagxile ngakumbi kumazwe avelisa i-oyile kunamazwe asebenzisa i-oyile.
Kodwa ngokuqinisekileyo, xa ioyile yayifikelela kwi-60 yeedola, i-70 yeedola ngomphanda, iVenezuela yayichitha imali eninzi kungekuphela nje kwiinkqubo zentlalo, kodwa kwiziseko ezingundoqo, kuzo zonke iintlobo zezivumelwano zamazwe ngamazwe kunye nokuthenga izinto. Kwaye ndithetha ukuba, omnye - uChavez ngokwakhe wayenayo, kwaye ndithetha, ndikhumbula ndikwigumbi lemeko kwibhotwe likamongameli apho wayenemephu enkulu malunga nendlela umbono wakhe welizwe wokutyala imali kwezo zixhobo zendalo kwaye izixhobo zobuchule. Ayisiyo-oyile kuphela, yirhasi, zizinto zonke ezizintlobo-ntlobo zezimbiwa, isinyithi esinzima, ukusebenzisa ezo endaweni yokuthumela kwamanye amazwe nje. Ukukwazi ukuba nobuchwephesha ngaphakathi elizweni, ukubusebenzisa ukwakha iziseko zoncedo kwamanye amashishini asekhaya ukunciphisa ukuxhomekeka kwi-oyile. Uyazi, into engazange yenzeke. Ndiyathetha ukuba, bawenza kuzwelonke onke la mashishini karhulumente kwaye abantu ababetyholwa ngawo babenobuqhophololo obumangalisayo kwaye bengafaneleki kwaye bengakwazi. Kwaye ke bababalekisela emhlabeni.
Kwaye akukho nanye kuyo eyakha yasebenza. Kodwa, ndiyathetha, ingcamango yayikhona kwaye ngoku uMaduro uthetha ngayo, naye, nangona kubonakala ngathi kukho ukuqhawulwa okupheleleyo phakathi kwentetho kunye nenyani. Kwaye ke, ukuxhomekeka kuyaqhubeka. Kwaye ngokuqinisekileyo, ndithetha ukuba, ngunobangela omkhulu wengxubakaxaka ilizwe elijongene nayo namhlanje kukuxhomekeka kakhulu kunye nokuxhomekeka kwi-oyile. Akunjalo nje kwicala likarhulumente, kodwa nakubantu, abaye baxhomekeke kuyo malunga nokulindela inxalenye yabo - uyazi, uhlobo lwelungelo elipheleleyo abantu abavakalelwa ngayo xa behlala kwinkqubo enjalo. apho urhulumente uquka konke kwaye ubonelela uninzi lweenkonzo zabo ezisisiseko.
JS: Kubonakala ngathi kukho imeko phantsi kukaMaduro endicinga ukuba iphinda enye into esiyibonileyo kwabanye oorhulumente kummandla apho zonke iingxaki kunye nazo zonke iingxaki zityholwa kungenelelo lwase-United States okanye lwase-US. Ngoku, ewe, ubhale yonke incwadi echaza amaqhinga amdaka ase-US kunye nongenelelo eVenezuela, "IKhowudi yeChavez," apho uye waphonononga yonke le nto ngokweenkcukacha. Ngokucacileyo iUnited States isoloko ingenelela kwimicimbi yamazwe ehlabathini lonke, kodwa ngokuqinisekileyo kuwo wonke uMbindi noMzantsi Merika. Kodwa kubonakala ngathi loo nto iba yinto encinci kakhulu ukuba ungahlala uthi, "Owu, kungenxa yokuba i-United States. Oku kungenxa yamaqela axhaswa yi-US. Yonke le yinkcaso eyenziwe yi-US. " Ndithetha ukuthi, ngaba ndiyaphazama? Ndiyathetha, kubonakala ngathi lolo luhlobo lwempendulo yokuqala kwinkampu ye-pro-Maduro.
UMZ: Kulungile, ndiyathetha, inzima ngakumbi. Asiyompendulo elula ethi ewe okanye hayi. Ndiyathetha ngokuqinisekileyo, ndicinga ukuba kukho inkcubeko, mhlawumbi into yehlabathi jikelele yeenkokeli ezingafuniyo ukuthatha uxanduva ngezenzo zazo. Kodwa ndiyathetha kwakhona, ndibuyela kuChavez kuba, ndiyathetha, urhulumente waseMaduro usebenzisa uChavez ukuthethelela yonke into abayenzayo. Ke, ndihlala ndijonge ngasemva kwaye ndifunda kwaye ndikhumbula indlela aziphethe ngayo kwiimeko ezifanayo, okanye xa wayejongene nengxaki. Kwaye enye yezinto eyenza ukuba uChavez adume kakhulu ekuqaleni kuxa wayebandakanyeka kwimvukelo yasemkhosini okanye ubhukuqo-mbuso ngokuchasene nalo Mongameli ukhohlakeleyo ngo-1992 kwaye ayiphumelelanga. Kwaye nguye yedwa - uHugo Chavez, lo mfana u-lieutenant colonel, waphuma phambi kweekhamera waza wathatha uxanduva lokungaphumeleli. Kwaye kubantu baseVenezuela, kwaba ngathi kukothuka kunye nomzuzu owoyikekayo. Ndiyathetha, apha sinomntu okwisikhundla sobunkokeli othi: "Ndisilele kwaye ndithatha uxanduva." Kwaye, uyazi, kuya kubakho ngaphezulu, okuza kuqhubeka. Ibali liya kuqhubeka, apho ngokuqinisekileyo lalinjalo.
Kodwa, ndithetha ukuba, yayilutshintsho olo, inguqu eyayinomtsalane kubantu abaninzi kwilizwe apho abaninzi babesand’ ukugxeka abanye ngeempazamo zabo okanye basuke bayifulathele. Kwaye ngoku siyayibona loo nto kwakhona. Ndithetha ukuthi, ibe yenye yezigxeko zam. Ewe, akukho mbuzo. Ngaba i-US ixhasa ngemali inkcaso eVenezuela? Ngokuqinisekileyo. Sele beyenza iminyaka, uyazi? Ndiyathetha, ndiyibhale ngokucokisekileyo ngokusebenzisa uMthetho weNkululeko yoLwazi kunye nokutyhila amaxwebhu ase-US apho abonisa ukuba axhasa inkcaso ngemali.
Ngaba baxhasa kwaye batyhala utshintsho lolawulo? Ngokupheleleyo. Ndiyathetha, uMike Pompeo wayithetha ngenye imini kwiforum yoluntu ukuba benza konke okusemandleni abo ukufuna utshintsho lolawulo. Ndiyathetha, siyivile kuRex Tillerson ngenye imini, iSebe likaRhulumente, ngqo, esitsho. UMaduro kufuneka athathe isigqibo sokuba ngaba ufuna ikamva okanye hayi, kungenjalo-ndithetha ukuba, ngoku ndicacisa-ndiya kwenza isigqibo kuye, into eya kuthi injalo.
Ngoko, ngaba bayayenza loo nto? Ewe. Ngaba kukho iindlela ezithile zemfazwe yezoqoqosho, imfazwe yobuxoki? Ewe ilapho. Kodwa ngaba kukho iimpazamo kunye noxanduva kurhulumente? Ngokuqinisekileyo. Kwaye ndiyathetha, kukho ulawulo olugwenxa oluxhaphakileyo. Benze izigqibo ezimanyumnyezi kwezoqoqosho ngokwemali kunye nolu lawulo lwemali olugqithisileyo oluye lwanyusa izinga lokunyuka kwamaxabiso kwimarike emnyama enxuseneyo yedola. Ndiyathetha-kwaye kwangaxeshanye, izivumelwano urhulumente athe wazibandakanya neenkampani zokubonelela ngemveliso yokutya kunye nazo zonke iintlobo zezinye iimveliso zabathengi kumazwe, ziye zaxhaphake urhwaphilizo. Kubekho iikhomishini eziphoswe phezulu. Ndithetha ukuthi, kukho ngaphezulu kwe-300 yeebhiliyoni zeedola eziye zarhwaphilizwa ngaphandle kwelizwe kwixesha elidlulileyo, njengeminyaka emine okanye emihlanu ekungachazwanga ngayo.
Ke ndiyathetha ukuba, urhulumente akanakuthi nje, "Hayi, asinandima kule nto." Okanye inyani yokuba uninzi lwala mashishini aphantsi kolawulo, hayi i-oyile kakhulu, kodwa nangona kunjalo - ndiyathetha, ukuba awasebenzi ngokwamandla. Ezinye zinento yokwenza nokutshatyalaliswa kwangaphandle, ukwala ukubonelela ngeenxalenye ezifunekayo, ukulungisa izinto, izinto ezinjalo, kodwa ezinye zinento yokwenza nesigqibo sikarhulumente.
Ke ndiyathetha, ayisoloko iphoso le boogeyman. Kodwa ngokuqinisekileyo i-US inendima - indima evulekileyo, edume kakubi ekuxhaseni urhulumente ochasayo, ongenademokhrasi ngeendlela ezininzi, inkcaso eVenezuela kunye nokukhuthaza utshintsho lolawulo.
Ndiyathetha - kwaye enye into kule nto, kukuba urhulumente ngokuqinisekileyo ulawula, urhulumente waseMaduro, ngoko bahlala bethwele uxanduva olukhulu kwizinto ezenzekayo kweli lizwe kunabo bangaphandle. Kodwa akuthandabuzeki ukuba inkcaso imele uhlobo lwesikolo esidala esizizityebi esilawula amashishini abucala aqhube iVenezuela amashumi eminyaka. Kwaye, baye badlala indima ekuqokeleleni iimveliso kunye nohlobo olupheleleyo lokutshabalalisa ukuzama ukusebenzisa laa mbono yasetyenziswa eChile ngokuchasene noSalvador Allende ekuqaleni kweminyaka yoo-1970 yenza uqoqosho lukhale.
JS: Kodwa uthetha ngamanye ala maqela afumene isixa esikhulu senkxaso kunye nemali kunye nabacebisi, njalo njalo, abavela eUnited States kunye namanye amagunya athe angenelela. Kodwa ngokuqinisekileyo, ukwanayo neqela elibalulekileyo loluntu lwaseVenezuela oluchaseneyo noMaduro ongekhoyo kwintlawulo yase-US.
UMZ: Ngokuqinisekileyo. Ndiyathetha, kuya kuba ngumsindo ukuthi bonke bahlawulwa, okanye bahlawulwa abaqhankqalazi. Oko kundikhumbuza uDonald Trump ethetha loo nto malunga nabani na oqhankqalaza ngokuchasene naye. Iyahlekisa. Hayi. Ndiyathetha into yokuba ngoku - u-Chavez wayeseofisini ukususela ngo-1999 de wafa ekuqaleni kwe-2013, kwaye ngoku uMaduro usesikhundleni ukususela ngoko.
Ke, sijonge ngaphezulu kweminyaka eli-18, ngokusisiseko. Ndithetha ukuthi, kukho isizukulwana, isizukulwana esipheleleyo esikhule simazi lo rhulumente kuphela. Kwaye ke, ewe, ndiyathetha, ukuba batyhola lo rhulumente ngeengxaki abahlangabezana nazo kweli lizwe - ngokufanelekileyo. Abanayo ireferensi yokuba bekunjani ngaphambili. Ndithetha ukuthi, amaxesha amaninzi lo rhulumente uthanda ukuthi lo rhulumente waseVenezuela, “Owu abanalo nofifi lokuba kwakunjani ngaphambili, xa izinto zazicinezela, xa kwakukho intshutshiso yokwenene, xa kwakungcungcuthekiswa naxa kwakungasabiwa. ubutyebi beoyile naxa intlupheko yayiphezulu.”
Ndithetha ukuba, kubantu abaninzi namhlanje yinto edlulileyo engaziwayo. Bakhathalele kuphela okwenzekayo ngoku. Ngoko ke kukho umyinge wabemi abathe nca kulo rhulumente kuba bengafuni ukuba oko bakubona njengonogada bakudala babuyele kulawulo kuba besoyikela ukuba izinto ziya kubuyela kwindlela ebeziyiyo ngaphambili. Boyika ukuba baya kungabonakali kwakhona kwaye bajongelwe phantsi kwaye babekwe bucala kwaye batshutshiswe. Kwaye mhlawumbi banyanisile, kuninzi lwaloo nto. Ingakumbi kuba xa ezi nkokeli zichaseneyo namhlanje zijongene noMaduro, yayizezo zenza ubhukuqo-mbuso ngo-2002 ngokuchasene noChavez. Kwaye bathi bakungena kwisithuba esifutshane seeyure ezingama-48, yiloo nto kanye abayenzayo. Bawuchitha umgaqo-siseko, onke amagunya. Batshutshisa kwaye babulala abantu ezitratweni ezichongiweyo noChavez, kunye neChavismo, uyazi? Baqala ukubuyisela umva yonke into ababenokuyenza kwaye bafuna ukwenza izinto zabucala.
Ke ndiyathetha, kukho ireferensi yokuba abantu banamathele kulo rhulumente. Eyona nto bayithethayo kukuba: “Ewe, siyazi ukuba bonakele. Ewe, siyazi ukuba izinto azikho ntle, kodwa enye indlela imbi kakhulu. ” Kwaye ke ube kwicala elichasayo, abo bathi: "Akukho ndlela. Ngurhulumente owoyikekayo lo. Izinto zimbi kuthi, sifuna nje utshintsho. ” Kwaye abakhathali ngokwenene.
Ndithetha ukuba, i-Venezuela inengxaki yobunkokeli kuba inkcaso ayinikezeli naluphi na uhlobo lobunkokeli obunika abantu into abanokuyijonga ngendlela eyakhayo kwikamva. Inokuba luhlobo lomlindi omdala okanye umlindi wangoku, uyazi? Yaye bobabini baye babonisa ukuba abazange balawule ngendlela ethandeka ebantwini. Ubuncinci ngokubhekiselele kurhulumente waseMaduro ngoku kunye nabo bakwiinkokeli ezichasayo kwixesha elidlulileyo.
JS: Kunene. Kwaye ngokuqinisekileyo ndiyavumelana nembali yakho apho malunga nemikhosi yangaphandle eyayixhasa olo bhukuqo-mbuso kunye nento ababefuna ukuyenza iinkosi zobhukuqo-mbuso. Into endiyifumana inomdla ngakumbi xa umntu onjengawe kunye nomntu ofana nam exoxa ngolu hlobo luhlobo lwendlela ekhohlo elijonga ngayo le meko. Kwaye bendifunda iingxelo ezahlukeneyo ezivela kumaqela abantu-abanye babo abantu ababekhonza njengabaphathiswa bangaphandle, izifundiswa, abantu bezopolitiko phantsi kukaHugo Chavez, abanye abaphuma kwimanyano ebanzi ngaphakathi kwiLatin America-kwaye, kwelinye icala, unayo. abantu abathile ngaphakathi kweVenezuela nakwingingqi abakholelwa ukuba ukukhusela ilizwe laseVenezuela, nokuba kukho iziphene zalo, kuyimfuneko kuba ngurhulumente ochasene nama impiriyali nothandwayo. Kwaye ke unamanye amaqela aqaphela yonke into oyithethayo malunga nobume bamanye amaqela aphikisayo, kodwa abiza urhulumente kaMaduro ngokunyuka kokugunyazisa kunye nokulawula.
Kwaye bendifuna ukukubuza, kuba ubumazi kakuhle uHugo Chavez, ukuba ubhale le ncwadi ebhenca ukuphazamiseka kwe-US eVenezuela, esekwe kumaxwebhu karhulumente wase-United States: Ngaba uyakholelwa ukuba okwenziwa nguMaduro kunye namahlakani akhe ngoku ungcatsha ilifa likaHugo Chavez?
UMZ: Ndicinga ukuba ngandlela ithile ikuloo ndlela, ngokuqinisekileyo. Ndicinga ukuba zininzi - ngokuqinisekileyo akukho nzame yesazela sokungcatsha ilifa likaChavez, kodwa omnye wemiba yam ephambili -
JS: Ndicinga ukuba yinzame entle xa upheka iincwadi kwireferendamu.
UMZ: Ewe, kunjalo, olu hlobo lokuziphatha kum alwamkelekanga kwaphela kwaye ngokucacileyo lungcatsha elo lifa kwaye hayi nje ilifa likaChavez, kodwa kulo lonke ulwakhiwo lwedemokhrasi yaseVenezuela eyomeleziweyo, omnye wayenethemba, kolu hlobo lokuthatha inxaxheba kwedemokhrasi ngaphezulu elidlulileyo - okanye ubuncinci kude kube malunga no-2012, xa ngaphambi kokuba izinto ziqale ukuwa ngokupheleleyo.
Kodwa ewe, ndiyathetha, ndiyacinga, kunzima kuba aba ngabantu ababetyholwa ngohlobo lokukhokelela phambili, kodwa kwangaxeshanye kukho isangqa sabantu apho-amandla ngoku eVenezuela - ababedume ngobuqhophololo. . Ngokwenyani, abanye babo, uChavez ngokwakhe wasuswa kurhulumente, akazange anyanzeliswe ngokwaneleyo malunga nokubanyanzeliswa okanye ukuba baye kwinkqubo yobulungisa, inkqubo efanelekileyo, kodwa abasuse ngenxa yorhwaphilizo. Kwaye ngoku babuyile.
Ke, ngezo ndlela kum oko kukungcatsha into yokuba kukho okungaphezulu-isakhiwo se-elitist endaweni. Ukuba nangona i-rhetoric, i-rhetoric eninzi, ihlala ifana, kwaye nangona kusekho - kwaye ndithetha ukuba yinxalenye ephambili yenkcazo elahlekileyo. Sinokugxeka izenzo zorhulumente waseMaduro, kwaye sinokuthi abanye babo bangcatsha ilifa likaChavez, kodwa ayingabo kuphela ababalulekileyo apha.
Kwaye sinokuphuma ngokuchasene naluphi na uhlobo longenelelo lwase-US okanye iinzame zokunyanzelisa utshintsho lolawulo, njengoko kuya kuba njalo nakweliphi na ilizwe kwihlabathi liphela - ukunyhasha ulongamo lwesinye isizwe akwamkelekanga. Kodwa, kwangaxeshanye, kusekho izigidi zabantu kwimibutho yasekuhlaleni elwela idemokhrasi yabo, kwaye banemiba yabo ngokunjalo nabantu abaphetheyo. Kodwa abazimiselanga kuyeka bancame bancame isithuba sabo kwabo bakwiphiko lasekunene abazakuthatha ulawulo ukuba lo rhulumente ukhoyo ebenokuphulukana nolawulo.
Ndiyathetha, iVenezuela ayinawo umhlaba ophakathi ngeli xesha, uyazi? Yiyo loo nto ndicinga ukuba kuninzi kubantu abangaphandle, ngasekhohlo, abathi masigxeke kwaye sithethe ngokuchasene nokungenelela kwamanye amazwe eVenezuela, kwaye singathethi nto ngoMaduro. Kukho abo bathi, “Hayi, hayi, kufuneka sithethe ngokwanda kweempawu zolawulo lorhulumente. Ukungcatshwa, mhlawumbi, kwimiba yelifa likaChavez nayo yonke into eyaphunyezwa phantsi kweNguquko yaseBolivarian esiyibonayo ngoku iza kupheliswa. ” Kwaye kukho abo bathi, "Hayi, kufuneka sinamathele kuMaduro kwaye simxhase kwaye sivale imilomo yethu."
Kwaye ndicinga ukuba yonke into ilula kakhulu. Ndiyathetha, yonke loo ngxoxo kufuneka ibekhona. Ngelo xesha, kufuneka ujonge, kakuhle, yintoni indima yabantu abangabandakanyekanga ngokuthe ngqo kuloo ntshukumo, kwaye ngawaphi amazwi kunye nabantu ababalulekileyo ngokwenene abakuloo ntshukumo. Ngaba nguMaduro ngokwakhe, kunye nabantu abamjikelezileyo kwisakhiwo samandla phezulu, okanye ngaba i-grassroots, imibutho yentlalontle, abasebenzi, abaququzeleli boluntu, abantu ngokwenene abo bazama, bezabalaza ukubamba. kuyo nantoni na eseleyo kule ntshukumo bebezakha kwaye bezixhobisa ngoku kule minyaka ilishumi elinesihlanu idlulileyo okanye kunjalo?
Ndiyathetha, ndicinga ukuba yincoko ekufuneka iqhutywe. Abo bantu abakho kule ngxelo. Siva kwinkcaso kunye neendaba zase-US ngamaxesha onke, siva kubo bonke abagxeki, kodwa asizange sive kubantu. Andithethi abantu abaphumayo bathi, “Owu, ndiyamthanda uMaduro. Ndiyamxhasa uMaduro.” Kodwa abantu ekuhlaleni, abantu abahluphekayo kunye nabasebenzi. Ndithetha ukuba, luninzi lwabantu abaquka intshukumo yeChavez eVenezuela. Yinto esi sakhiwo amandla elite ukuba yonakele phezulu.
JS: Ngoobani awona manani aphikisayo anamandla eVenezuela ngoku?
UMZ: Unosapho olunjalo, ilifa losapho olutyebileyo njengoLeopoldo Lopez, osematheni njengebanjwa lezopolitiko. Uphuma kolunye lweentsapho ezityebileyo esizweni, abanini bamashishini amakhulu kunye nobutyebi obudala. UHenrique Capriles Radonski, owayengumgqatswa ophulukene noMaduro kwaye wayekhe waphulukana noChavez kugqatso lobumongameli. Baphuma kwiindawo ezahlukeneyo - inkcaso yenziwe ngamaqela ahlukeneyo angaphezulu kweshumi elinambini.
Emva koko unayo, njengo- kunye noHenry Ramos Allup, owayeyinkokeli yeqela elidala le-AD, iDemocratic Action, okanye ukwi adeco, njengoko besitsho. Kwaye amanye amaqela ahlukene kwaye ahlanganisa okuninzi oko ngenkxaso-mali evela kwi-National Endowment for Democracy kunye ne-USAID. Kodwa kusekho, kukho iqela lamaqela ahlukeneyo. Uneempendulo ezichanekileyo ezinjengoMaria Corina Machado, omnye ovela kunogada wakudala, abantu abatyebileyo abaphezulu, ubutyebi bosapho eVenezuela obephethe ilizwe ngaphambili.
Ndithetha ukuthi, into eningenayo kwicala eliphikisayo ziinkokeli eziphuma emazantsi njengani kwicala likarhulumente, niyabona? Ngenxa yokuba uMaduro ngokwakhe - sinokuthi zonke iintlobo zezinto ngaye namhlanje, kodwa uvela kubasebenzi - wayengumqhubi webhasi, wayengumququzeleli wemanyano kanye njengoko wayenjalo uChavez, kwintsapho ehluphekileyo yabasebenzi evela kumathafa aseVenezuela. .
Kwaye abaninzi abantu abajikeleze iMaduro ayingobantu abavela kubutyebi okanye abantu abavela kubasebenzi. Ke, ndithetha ukuba, yinxalenye yalo, kukuba inkcaso inonxibelelwano olupheleleyo kunye nesininzi sabantu baseVenezuela. Ewe, banxibelelana neeklasi ezikumgangatho ophakathi, ezingamazwi owabonayo nowevayo kumajelo eendaba ehlabathi, ngakumbi e-US, kuba bafundiswe kakuhle. Bathetha isiNgesi. Uninzi lwabo luhlala apha, uyazi? Babandakanyeka kumaqela amandla kunye nezangqa zamandla eWashington kwaye apha kwizangqa zemali zaseNew York. Kwaye ke, zezona oziva kakhulu. Kodwa akunjalo - amazwi abo asemthethweni. Andinakuze nditsho ukuba abakho mthethweni kwaye abanabo umelo olubalulekileyo elizweni namhlanje. Kodwa ngokuqinisekileyo kukho isiqwenga esikhulu esilahlekileyo, uninzi lwabantu baseVenezuela abakhoyo kuphela abajonganga nto ithile kurhulumente wabo, bajonge urhulumente oza kuhlangabezana neemfuno zabo. Oko kuya kunceda ilizwe ukuba liqhubele phambili.
Yiyo loo nto uChavez eqale wanxibelelana nalaa pesenti inkulu yabantu belizwe - kuba yayisisithembiso sakhe kwaye wazibandakanya nabo. Kwaye bazibandakanya naye. Kwaye ke olo hlobo lwaqhubela phambili ubunkokeli bakhe. Kwaye ekuqaleni uye waphumelela kwezo migaqo-nkqubo ejongene nesininzi kwaye ebabonelela.
Ke ngoku njengoko uqoqosho lutshaba kwaye ilizwe lingenalo uhlobo lwemeko yezoqoqosho elalinayo kwiminyaka embalwa edlulileyo, ezo mfuno zabantu azihlangatyezwa ngendlela efanayo. Kwaye ke bajonge utshintsho. Kodwa utshintsho alunambono kubantu abaninzi baseVenezuela. Bafuna nje iinkokeli eziya kuthi zinyaniseke kwaye zinyaniseke, neziza kulawula ngokuthanda uninzi lwabantu elizweni. Kwaye ungakhange ukhangele ubutyebi kwioli, into eyenziwa yinkcaso ngaphambili kwaye ibonakala ngathi abanye abantu abaphetheyo benzayo namhlanje.
JS: Eva, chaza ukuba incwadi yakho, "IKhowudi yeChavez," iphandwe, kwaye unike nje uhlobo lomzobo omfutshane wophando lwakho oluye kulo ncwadi kunye nokuba zeziphi izigqibo.
UMZ: Ngoko ke, "iKhowudi yeChavez," eyayiyincwadi yam yokuqala - ndibhale ezininzi ukususela ngoko - kodwa "iKhowudi yeChavez" yaba sisiphumo sophando endilwenzileyo usebenzisa uMthetho weNkululeko yoLwazi ukukhupha amaxwebhu karhulumente wase-US. Kwaye ekuqaleni imbono yayikukwenza oko ngexesha lokwenyani, kuba ubhengezo oluchasene noChavez lwalusanda kwenzeka ngo-2002 kwaye kwakungaziwa ukuba urhulumente wase-US uya kukhulula naziphi na iimpepha kunyaka nje emva koko, kulapho uphando lwaqala khona kwaye mna. waqala ukwenza izicelo zeFOIA.
Kwaye kufanele ukuba, nokuba iVenezuela ibingeyonto iphambili okanye bebengacingi ngalo naluphi na uhlobo lwempembelelo yokukhupha loo maxwebhu. Kodwa ngokwenene ndafumana amawaka amaxwebhu avela kwii-arhente ezahlukeneyo zase-US, kubandakanywa ezinye iincwadana eziyimfihlo zeCIA malunga neentsuku zovukelo ezibonisa ngokucacileyo ukuba i-US yayingaxhasi ngemali inkcaso ngaphambi nasemva, kodwa yayinayo, yintoni, phi, nini kwaye kutheni kuyo yonke into malunga nobhukuqo-mbuso. Kwaye kwakukho ukubandakanyeka emkhosini. Kwakukho zonke iintlobo zemiba eyahlukeneyo eyaphuma kuloo maxwebhu.
Ke, laa ncwadi ngokukodwa, "IKhowudi yeChavez," igxile ngokwenene kumaxwebhu atyhilwa ngamaxwebhu karhulumente wase-US ngendima yase-US kubhukuqo-mbuso oluchasene noChavez kunye nohlobo lwento eyayisemva koko, yintoni ababejonge ukuyenza.
Ndinawo amaxwebhu amaninzi ukusukela ngoko lo mhla ubuyela kwiminyaka yoo-90, enika umdla ukuyikhankanya nje. Ndenze incwadi kwamanye ala maxwebhu abonise-kwaye ndiyazi ukuba iWikiLeaks isandula ukupapasha nayo, kunye namanye amaxwebhu amadala avela kurhulumente wase-US malunga neVenezuela, ebonisa nje ukuba yintoni eyona nto iphambili. Kwaye neentambo zeSebe likarhulumente ukusuka emva kwiminyaka yee-90s zathetha ngendlela ebaluleke ngayo iVenezuela kwimidla yase-US, hayi nje ngenxa yeoyile, kodwa ngenxa yokuma kwezopolitiko kummandla njengezibuko laseMzantsi Melika kunye nento yokuba babeyidinga. IVenezuela ukuba ngumzekelo wedemokhrasi kulo mmandla - njengoko usazi, idemokhrasi eyayiphantsi ngokucacileyo kwi-ajenda yase-US ukuze amanye amazwe aphindaphinde loo modeli.
Kwakhona, sabona ukuba ujike ngokupheleleyo xa uChavez ephumelele i-ofisi waza waqalisa imodeli eyaphinda yaphindaphindwa kulo lonke ummandla, ngokwemiqathango, abanye bayibiza ngokuba yi-pink tide, kodwa sabona oorhulumente abashiyekileyo bephumelela eBolivia nase-Ecuador naseArgentina naseBrazil. izinto uhlobo - iitafile zajika. Kwaye ngoku sibabona bebuyela umva kwakhona njengoko iphiko elifanelekileyo kunye noorhulumente abalungele i-US bevuke kwakhona eLatin America.
JS: Ngoku ngaphandle kokutyumba uMaduro, uLawulo lukaTrump lubonakala luqhubeka, nangona luluhlobo lwayo lokujikeleza, umgaqo-nkqubo osisiseko wase-US obhekiselele eVenezuela, ubuncinci esidlangalaleni. Kuthetha ukuthini oku ukuba uMaduro utyunjwe kwaye iimpahla zigcinwe ngumkhenkce?
UMZ: Ewe ayithethi kakhulu ngaphakathi eVenezuela. Enyanisweni, ibonwa njengebheji yembeko. Ngalo lonke ixesha kukho umntu okhethwe ngurhulumente wase-US kwiminyaka yakutshanje kwaye wanikwa enye yezi zohlwayo, baye banikezelwa nguMaduro ngokwakhe kutshanje, eli krele laseBolivar, elifana nekrele likaSimon Bolivar, umseki waseVenezuela kunye noyise. amanye amazwe akuMzantsi Merika. Kwaye ibonwa njengenye yeewonga eziphezulu.
Kwaye eneneni bebeqhuba i-hash tag yohlobo lwephulo kwiintsuku ezimbalwa ezidlulileyo besithi #iwantmysanction. Ke kubonakala ngathi kukubuyela umva kuba idibanisa abantu kunye nemikhosi ejikeleze urhulumente ebusweni besoyikiso sangaphandle.
Ndiyazi ukuba i-US icinga ukuba eli licebo lokuba baya kuguqula uMaduro ngokwakhe ukuba abe ngumongameli wepalamente okanye uzwilakhe, kodwa, ekugqibeleni, ndiyathetha, ihlabathi laseNtshona linokuphuma ngokumelene neVenezuela. Okokuqala, abawucimi unikezelo lweoyile. Ukuba bebenokwenza loo nto, bebenokwenzakalisa umdla wase-US ngakumbi kunaseVenezuela ngokwenyani, kuba ngama-30 epesenti yobonelelo lwe-oyile e-United States kwaye baneendawo zokucoca ezintandathu apha e-United States. Kwaye iVenezuela ingumnini wetsheyini yegesi yeCitgo, enamawakawaka ezikhululo zerhasi kwilizwe lonke.
Kodwa, okoko iVenezuela igcina amaqhina abo ezorhwebo kunye nomanyano lwabo lobuchule kunye namazwe anje ngeRussia neTshayina, abazukubuya umva xa bejongene nesoyikiso sangaphandle. Baza kuqina ngakumbi malunga nokuphindaphinda kabini. Kwaye, ndiyathetha, ndicinga ukuba yinto ebonakala ngathi kum ukuba urhulumente wase-US, okanye abo banendlebe yakhe nabani na oqhuba loo mgaqo-nkqubo wangaphandle bayasilela ukuqonda. Kwaye bayijongela phantsi impembelelo yayo.
JS: Kunjalo, kodwa ndifuna ukukhomba, ndiyathetha, kukwanika umdla ukuba kumhleli weNew York Times - hayi i-op-ed, kodwa umhleli wokwenyani ongatyikitywanga ovela kwibhodi yokuhlela yeNew York Times - balumkisa ngokuchasene nezohlwayo yi-United. States. Kwaye ndifuna ukukufundela esi sivakalisi: "Naziphi na izohlwayo zase-United States, ngaphandle kwegunya lokuziphatha elithandabuzekayo loLawulo lukaTrump, zondla amabango kaMnu. Maduro eMelika efuna ukutyumza iVenezuela." Kuyathakazelisa ukuba yiloo nto abayichonga njengento ephantsi yezohlwayo, ngaphandle kokukhankanya into yokuba banezixhobo zokucoca eMelika, ukuba bangabanini beCitgo gas chain, ukuba bangababoneleli abakhulu kwi-United States. Yinto nje, ke, oku kuya kondla i-ego kaMaduro kunye nebango lakhe lokuma kwi-imperialist Yankee.
UMZ: Kunene. Kwaye ndiyathetha, idlulela ngaphaya koko. Ewe, okokuqala, bekukho inzame yokuphembelela egqithisileyo ebiqhubeka kwezi veki zimbalwa zidlulileyo eWashington ziinkampani zeoyile zase-US kunye nezinye iinkampani ezibonelela ngokuchasene nalo naluphi na uhlobo lwezohlwayo ezibanzi ngokuchasene neshishini leoli laseVenezuela. Ngoko ngokucacileyo oko kube yimpumelelo ukuza kuthi ga ngoku.
Kodwa, idlula nje into yokuba i-US idinga ioyile. Abafuni nje ukuyinikezela yonke eRussia naseTshayina kwaye bavule ucango lonke lokubuyela kwabo kulo mhlaba. Ke kukho oko kubaluleka kwe-geopolitical ngokunjalo, njengokugcina olo hlobo lonxibelelwano lungaqhelekanga kunye neVenezuela, ngaphandle kweentetho kumacala omabini aphuma eVenezuela ngokunjalo. Ndiyathetha, ngenye imini unoMaduro esithi, "Ndinqwenela ukuxhawula isandla sikaTrump." Kwaye ngosuku olulandelayo uthi, "Trump, Yankee goduka." Uyazi? Ndiyathetha, ngoko kuyafana. Kufana nale ntetho yeschizophrenic kumacala omabini ngenxa yokuba abanako ukumka kuloo kuxhomekeka anawo omabini la mazwe.
Kwaye kwangaxeshanye, ndiyathetha, mna-ndazi uNicolas Maduro buqu - ndiyazi ukuba uzabalazela olo hlobo lokuba semthethweni. Wonyulwa ngamanqaku angaphantsi kwababini. Uye wehlelwa ziingxaki ezinzima okoko ekwisikhundla sakhe. Akazange akunqwenele ukuba ngumongameli. Asiyonto wayeyiphupha okanye ayisebenzele ubomi bakhe bonke. Kwaye ngoku ukule meko apho athe waba ngulo mbutho wamazwe ngamazwe kwilizwe laseNtshona kwaye uzama ukuba semthethweni, hayi nje phakathi kwabantu bakowabo, kodwa nakwamanye amazwe. Kwaye oko, ngelishwa, kuqala nge-United States.
Ke bebesenza zonke iintlobo zokugqithisela kuLawulo lukaTrump ukusukela ngasekupheleni konyaka ophelileyo - iinzame zokuphembelela - kwaye bade banikela ngaphezulu kwesiqingatha sebhiliyoni yeedola kwingxowa-mali yokusungulwa kukaTrump. Ndiyathetha, iyamangalisa imizamo abantu abayenzayo yokuzama ukuba kwicala elilungileyo likarhulumente onobutshaba obucacileyo njengoko i-US ibisiya eVenezuela.
Kodwa ngokuqinisekileyo ndiyacinga ukuba izohlwayo - andicingi ukuba i-US eneneni inokhetho oluninzi kweli nqanaba. Bazama ukusebenza kwingingqi ukukhuthaza utshintsho lolawulo. Loo migudu iye yasilela. Nangona oorhulumente bephiko lasekunene bebuyile kuninzi lwaseLatin America, ayifani kwaye baninzi kwabo rhulumente basalayo ukuvuma naluphi na uhlobo longenelelo eVenezuela. Oko kuya kumisela umzekelo onokuba mbi kakhulu kulo lonke ummandla. Isenokusebenza ngokuchasene nabo.
JS: Ewe, kwaye ukuba iVenezuela ibivelisa ioyile yemifuno endaweni yegolide emnyama, ndicinga ukuba siyakubona imeko eyahlukileyo kakhulu. U-Eva, njengoko sisonga, ndifuna ukukubuza: Njengoko usazi ngokobuqu uninzi lwabadlali kulo rhulumente waseVenezuela, kodwa nakuluntu olubanzi lwaseVenezuela - ukuba uthetha nabantu abavela kumaqela amaninzi ahlukeneyo kwaye Iimbono - ucinga ukuba yeyiphi eyona ndlela isebenzayo eya phambili ngoku njengoko i-United States ithathe esidlangalaleni esi sikhundla sinobutshaba ngakuMaduro, kwaye unekwayala eyandayo yamazwi kubandakanya abantu ngokuqinisekileyo abangekho kwintlawulo yase-US, ngokusisiseko. esithi, "Jonga, Maduro, ujonge kulawulo lwegunya apha." Kufuneka kwenzeke ntoni ukuya phambili ukuze kusonjululwe le nto?
UMZ: Ndinqwenela ukuba ngebengazange baqhubele phambili noku kubhalwa ngokutsha komgaqo-siseko kunye nokudala olu hlobo lorhulumente ophezulu, kuba oko kwenza kube nzima ukufumana isisombululo kule ngxaki. Kodwa ndiyakholelwa, kwaye ndiza kuqhubeka nokunyanzela incoko phakathi kwawo onke amaqela ahlukeneyo elizwe kwaye ndijonge izinto ezinengqondo ngakumbi nangaphakathi kubo - kwaye emva koko ndibambe unyulo. Ingxaki ngonyulo — kufuneka ibe lunyulo lwengingqi. Bekufanele ukuba ibe ngunyaka ophelileyo kwiirhuluneli kunye noosodolophu kwaye emva koko kunyulo lukamongameli kunyaka ozayo. Ingxaki ngoku yeyokuba ngenxa yokuba inkqubo yolonyulo isenokuba iye yachaphazeleka - kusenokwenzeka ukuba ibikulonyulo oludlulileyo - ngenxa yokuba, ngoku kukho iqumrhu lorhulumente ophezulu elinokugqiba ukuba unyulo lwenziwe na okanye hayi. Okanye nokuba olo nyulo luyenzeka, baya kuba namandla ngaphezu kwakhe nabani na ophumelele isikhundla. Ke, kubonakala ngathi kufuneka kubekho uthetha-thethwano oluqhubekayo malunga nokumisela imigca ecacileyo kunye nolwakhiwo lwendlela izinto ezizakuvela ngayo. Kufuneka kubekho indlela yonyulo yokuphuma. Akunakubakho utshintsho lolawulo, hayi ubhukuqo-mbuso, hayi naluphi na uhlobo loqhanqalazo olunobundlobongela ezitalatweni ukutyhalela phambili ilizwe kwimfazwe yamakhaya.
IVenezuela lilizwe elinemipu emininzi kwaye liye lakhula ngobundlobongela ekuhambeni kweminyaka. Abantu baye bakhula ngakumbi nangakumbi be-radicalized kwizikhundla zabo, kwaye ingumda wolo hlobo lwemeko. Kwaye ndicinga ukuba yonke imizamo, kumazwe ngamazwe, kunye nalawo angaphakathi - amaqela ahlukeneyo anamandla - kufuneka akhangele indlela yothethathethwano eya kufuneka ibandakanye uhlobo oluthile lwekhomishini yenyaniso kunye nobulungisa, ukuxolelwa kwabo baye babandakanyeka kuyo yonke into. iziganeko kunye nophuhliso kule minyaka imbalwa idlulileyo. Ngenxa yokuba awukwazi ukufumana indlela yokuphuma kuloo meko ukuba abantu bavakalelwa ngathi baza kutshutshiswa xa bephumile emandleni.
Kumacala omabini bekukho ubugebenga kwaye yinyani nje elishwa. Ke, ukuba sifuna ukuqhubela iVenezuela phambili kwisisombululo esinoxolo ngakumbi kwaye kude nemfazwe yamakhaya, nto leyo enokuba yiyo, kufuneka kubekho uhlobo lwekhomishini yenyaniso nobulungisa, efana nale siyibonileyo. iColombia engummelwane, ekucacayo ukuba yimeko eyahlukileyo, apho unoxolelo olubanzi kwabo baye babandakanyeka kuphuhliso lwezopolitiko kule minyaka imbalwa idlulileyo. Ngoko ke ngaloo ndlela ubuncinci, uyazi, kuya kubakho ukuvakalelwa kukuba abantu banokuqhubeka kwaye badlulise oku ngaphandle kwentshutshiso.
JS: Ngaba abadlali baseMelika abangenelele eVenezuela kufuneka babe yinxalenye yoko?
UMZ: Andiqondi ukuba i-US kufuneka ibe yinxalenye yayo konke konke.
JS: Kodwa bendithetha ngakumbi malunga nokuphendula kuhlobo oluthile lwekhomishini yenyani.
UMZ: Ukususela nini i-US iye yaphenduliswa ngezenzo zayo kwelinye ilizwe? Ndithetha ukuthi, singalugxeka ukungenelela kwe-US kunye nezicwangciso kunye nobuchule bokulwa neVenezuela de sibe luhlaza ebusweni kwaye asiyi ndawo. Ndicinga ukuba kweli nqanaba, eyona nto ibalulekileyo kukuba kwingingqi, iLatin America ixhasa inkqubo eVenezuela. Kwaye ndiyazi bekukho iminikelo. Umongameli waseFransi, u-Emmanuel Macron wenze isithembiso sokuthatha inxaxheba kule nkqubo. UPopu, kunye nabanye abadlala indima engathathi hlangothi-yiloo nto iVenezuela idingayo. Abafuni nabaphi na abadlali abachasayo ababandakanyekayo kwisisombululo kwingxaki ekhoyo yelizwe.
JS: Kulungile. Eva Golinger, siza kuyishiya apho. Enkosi kakhulu ngokuzimanya nathi kwi intercepted.
UMZ: Enkosi, Jeremy.
JS: U-Eva Golinger ligqwetha kunye nombhali weencwadi ezininzi. Phakathi kwabo, "iKhowudi yeChavez."
I-ZNetwork ixhaswa ngemali kuphela ngesisa sabafundi bayo.
Nikela