Gwero: Counterpunch
adalankhula ndi a John Pilger ku London pa Seputembara 12, poyankha mlandu wa mtolankhani wofufuza komanso wofalitsa wa Wikileaks, Julian Assange, mnzake wapamtima wa Pilger's, yemwe adabwereranso kukhothi la Britain sabata yatha. Assange pakadali pano akulimbana ndi kutumizidwa ku US, komwe akukumana ndi chigamulo cha zaka 175 m'ndende chifukwa chodziwika kuti ndi ukazitape.
Dennis J Bernstein: Ndibwino kuti mulowe nafe John Pilger. Oimira boma ku America ati atsutsa a Julian Assange pamilandu 18 yaukazitape. Akufuna kuti akakhale zaka 175 m'ndende ya US. Ali ndi zaka 50, choncho zikutanthauza kuti akufuna kuti afe mโndende. Choopsa chotani kwa aku America pa Julian Assange?
John Pilger: Chabwino, ndi woopsa kwambiri. Amawulula zomwe maboma - zolakwa za maboma, zolakwa zomwe ife anthu timazidziwa pang'ono. Ndipo pankhaniyi, adawulula milandu yosalakwitsa, yosalekeza ya boma la US, makamaka pambuyo pa 9/11. Umenewo ndi mlandu wake. Pali zodabwitsa zambiri pa izi, Dennis. Assange ndi woposa munthu woimba mluzu. Iye ndi wonena zoona ndipo monga anthu otchedwa makampani ofalitsa nkhani tsopano adzipereka kwathunthu ku nkhani zabodza, chowonadi chomwe akunena ndi chosatheka, chosakhululukidwa. Iye - mwachitsanzo, iye - Wikileaks adawulula china chake chomwe tanenapo za nkhondo zaku America zomwe tikudziwa kale, ndipo ndicho chikhalidwe chakupha cha nkhondo izi, momwe United States idatumizira kupha komwe kumawononga kwambiri anthu aku US, momwe amazitumizira kumayiko ena, kupha anthu wamba kosalekeza.
Kanemayo, "Collateral Murder", pomwe ogwira ntchito pa helikopita ya Apache adawombera anthu wamba, kuphatikiza atolankhani, ku Baghdad, ndi ogwira nawo ntchito akuseka ndikuseka kuzunzika ndi imfa pansi pawo sichinali chapadera. Tonsefe omwe tanenapo - tinene kuti nkhondo zachitsamunda zaku America zinali ndi nkhani zamtunduwu zomwe zikuchitika. Koma Assange anali ndi umboni, ndipo ndicho - ndipo inali mlandu wake wina. Umboni wake ndi woona. Zowululidwa zonse za Wikileaks ndizowona. Izi zimapangitsa kuti zikhale zosiyana kwambiri ndi mitundu ina ya utolankhani, zomwe - zina ndi zowona, koma zina sizowona. Umo ndi momwe zimakhalira. Koma zowululidwa zonse za Wikileaks ndizowona. Iwo akuchokera mkati mwa dongosolo ndipo zonsezi zagwedezeka kwenikweni, ndikuganiza, maziko a chitetezo cha dziko ku United States. Ndipo palibe chomwe chikusiyidwa, kuti agwire Assange ndi kumusiya.
Bernstein: Ndipo izi ndizovuta kwambiri kwa ife amene timadziona ngati atolankhani. Tikudziwa kuti akuluakulu aku U.S.akuti Assange anakonza chiwembu ndi katswiri wofufuza za Intelligence wa U.S., Chelsea Manning. Manning adakhala nthawi yayitali mndende, ali yekhayekha ndipo wabwereranso kundende. Iwo akumutsatira iye ndi iye. Zoonadi, mfundo imene mukunena zokhudza kupha munthu mwachikole, ena anganene kuti anatulutsa zinsinsi zofunika za United States. Ena anganene kuti ananena zoona za dziko lotchedwa United States, lomwe limachita zakupha anthu ambiri.
Pilger: Chabwino, mavumbulutsowa amatipatsa zambiri za mmene dziko la United States limachitira padziko lonse lapansi. Mukudziwa, anthu ambiri amadabwa ndi khalidwe la a Donald Trump, koma sanatero โ sayenera kudabwa. Inde, ayenera kudabwa. Iwo - koma asadabwe, chifukwa khalidwe la Trump lakhala khalidwe la amene adamutsogolera kwa zaka zambiri. Kusiyana kwake ndikuti Trump ndi caricature ya dongosolo. Ndipo kotero, ndi wosavuta kumuzindikira, wosavuta kunyansidwa naye, ndikuganiza [akuseka], wosavuta kumva. Zimapangitsa zonse kukhala zosavuta komanso zosavuta, koma ndizovuta kwambiri kuposa zimenezo.
Umboni womwe Wikileaks adatulutsa unali kale Trump asanakhalepo, ndipo - tsopano tikudziwa, ndithudi, kuti Afghanistan yakhala malo akupha ku United States ndi omwe amadzitcha ogwirizana nawo kuyambira 2001. Ndikutanthauza, panali lipoti lomwe mungakhale nalo. posachedwapa, ndi Brown University, Pulofesa David Vine, ku Watson Institute ku Brown, ndikudziwa David, kumene kafukufukuyu akuti anthu pafupifupi 37 miliyoni - omwe ndi ofanana ndi anthu onse a ku Canada - akakamizika kuthawa kwawo. dziko ndi zochita za United States. Akunena kuti ichi ndi chiwerengero chosamala kwambiri, kuti ziwerengero za anthu omwe adasamutsidwawa mwina zili m'chigawo chapakati pa 48 ndi 59 [sic]. Akuyerekeza kuti anthu 9.2 miliyoni ndi anthu 7.1 miliyoni ku Syria achotsedwa pokhala.
Tsopano, ziwerengero za anthu omwe amafa - komanso, akugogomezera momwe kupeza kumeneku kuliri kokhazikika, kuli ngati 12 miliyoni. Kupha kumeneku kwakhala kukuchitika kwa nthawi yayitali kwambiri, koma Pulofesa Vine ndi ofufuza ake akungonena za nthawi yochokera pa 9/11, yomwe imatchedwa nkhondo yolimbana ndi uchigawenga, yomwe, ndithudi, yakhala nkhondo yoopsa nthawi, monga momwe zotsatira zake zikuwonetsera. Ndipo zomwe Wikileaks apeza zimakwaniritsadi izi, ndipo tikulankhula zenizeni apa. Izi si malingaliro. Zinthu izi zachitika. Anthu awa athamangitsidwa m'nyumba zawo. Magulu awo awonongedwa. Ziwerengero zosawerengeka mwina zachotsedwa m'maganizo mwawo, ndipo anthu ambiri ali ndi chisoni imfa ya okondedwa awo chifukwa cha zochita zimenezi.
Chifukwa chake, Wikileaks yatipatsa chowonadi chimenecho, ndipo, Julian Assange wachita bwino kwambiri pothandiza anthu kutidziwitsa - watilola - kutidziwitsa momwe maboma amatinamizira, momwe maboma athu anganamizire, osati adani athu. , ngakhale kuti Wikileaks, ndithudi, yatulutsa zikwi mazana a zolemba, zikalata zachinsinsi zochokera ku Russia ndi China ndi maiko ena. Koma kwenikweni ndi maiko aku Kumadzulo amene timawaona ngati maiko athu amene ali ofunika kwambiri. Watikakamiza - zomwe iye - watikakamiza kuti tiziyang'ana pagalasi. Izi zakhala chithandizo chake chodabwitsa komanso - kuwunikira kowona kwa mayiko a Kumadzulo. Ndipo chifukwa cha izi, amalipira mtengo wokwera kwambiri ...
Iye watiuza ife choonadi, mwa kuyankhula kwina. Iye akuunikira pa ziphuphu zonse padziko lapansiโฆโ Wikileaks yatithandiza kuzindikira. Wikileaks yatithandiza kuona mmene maboma amachitira zinthu mobisa, mseri. Ndikutanthauza, imeneyo ndi gawo lofunika kwambiri la demokalase yeniyeni yomwe palibe makambirano. Iyenera kukhala gawo chabe la izo. Koma tafika pagawo la 21st zaka zana pomwe ma demokalase okhazikika asintha mawonekedwe mpaka pano.
Sindikudziwa, kwenikweni, zomwe akhala, koma si mayiko ademokalase, kumene pafupifupi tsiku lililonse amapanga lamulo latsopano lopangidwa kupondereza chowonadi kapena kupangitsa zomwe amachita kukhala zobisika kwambiri. Ndipo ndizoโzimene zamupezera โ mwachidwi, koma ndikuganiza kuti mโpomveka, ngati ndinu dokotala wa zamaganizo, zimene zachititsa kuti atolankhani ambiri azidana naye, chifukwa anachita manyazi utolankhani chifukwa chosagwira ntchitoyo, chifukwa chosatiuza.
Bernstein: Kodi mukumvetsa bwino momwe a Julian akuchitira, ndipo chonde lankhulani pang'ono za chifukwa chomwe ali kukhoti panopa, komanso za ndondomekoyi?
Pilger: Chabwino, uku ndi kupitiriza kwa nkhani ya kubweza ngongole, yomwe ikuyenda pang'onopang'ono kwambiri. Ndipo zidayamba mu February, ndipo zinayambanso LolembaโฆAmbiri mwa mboni zotchinjiriza mlandu akhala โ akhala ochititsa chidwi kwambiri. Clive Stafford Smith, yemwe aliโndi loya waku America komanso loya waku Britain. Amayeserera - akhoza kuyeseza m'mayiko onse wowiri. Ndipo adayambitsa bungwe, Reprieve, ndipo wakhala akuchita zambiri pothandiza anthu ku Guantanamo.
Ndipo anali kufotokozera khoti kufunikira kwa maululidwe a Wikileaks okhudza Guantanamo, momwe Wikileaks idawunikira pakona yonse yamdima yomwe inali Guantanamo. Ndipo anali kufotokoza zabwino zake. Pakhala mkangano pa - zomwe zachitika, zomwe zikuwonekeratu, ndikuti akuluakulu akuluakulu a Dipatimenti Yachilungamo sanafune kupitiriza kuzenga mlanduwu. Assange sanazengerezedwe konse m'nthawi ya Obama, chifukwa Obama anamvetsetsa bwino lomwe kuti Assange akaimbidwa mlandu, ndiye kuti zotsatira zake zingakhale kuti mabungwe ofalitsa nkhani, monga New York Times, omwe anali ndi mauthenga a Wikileaks, ayenera kuimbidwa mlandu. komanso. Ndipo sindikutsimikiza kuti pazifukwa zazikulu zilizonse, koma pazifukwa zake zandale, adaganizapo - akuluakulu a boma adaganiza zosafika pamenepo.
Ndi olamulira a Trump omwe aganiza zopita mpaka pano, chifukwa a Trump akuwonekeratu - chabwino, adalengeza kuti ali pankhondo ndi atolankhani aku America. Anawatcha adani a anthu, ndipo - pazifukwa zake. Ndikutanthauza, palibe zifukwa zazikulu zomwe zimatsutsidwa. Pali zambiri [zoseka] - zifukwa zambiri zotsutsa zoulutsira nkhani. Koma Trump ndi wosiyana kwambiri ndi izo. Ndipo mosakayika Wikileaks adasesedwa pankhondo yaumwini yomwe Trump akuyendetsa - Trump ndi abwenzi ake akuchita motsutsana ndi ofalitsa nkhani. Anthu ngati Pompeo, ndikutanthauza, Pompeo walumbira pagulu kuti atsatira Julian Assange, m'mawu ambiri. Anakwiya kwambiri pamene anali Mtsogoleri wa CIA kuti Wikileaks inadumphira mafayilo otchedwa Vault 7, ndipo Vault 7 inali mafayilo a CIA omwe amatiuza momwe CIA amazonda pa ife ndipo amatha kutizonda kudzera pa TV. Ndipo kotero, palibe kukayikira kuti Julian Assange wapanga adani enieni pakati pa anthuwa, ndipo ndi anthu oipitsitsa kwambiri. Ndipo - ngakhale kutsutsidwa kwawo kumawonetsa - pafupifupi kuthedwa nzeru kwawo, chifukwa zambiri zomwe zimatchedwa kuti milandu zimakhudzana ndi ukazitape. Chifukwa chake, utolankhani umayikidwanso m'gulu la oyang'anira a Trump ngati akazitape, ndipo akugwiritsa ntchito lamulo la Espionage Act la 1917 lomwe linakhazikitsidwa pa Nkhondo Yoyamba Yapadziko Lonse kuti aletse olimbikitsa mtendere, omwe sankafuna kuti United States ilowe nawo ku Ulaya m'dziko Loyamba. Nkhondo.
Ndimo momwe aliri osimidwa. Ayenera kubwerera m'mbuyo kwa zaka zopitirira zana ndikutsutsana ndi Malamulo Oyendetsera Dziko, omwe, ndithudi, amalola kufalitsa - kufalitsa kwaulere kwa zotayikira ndi zolemba. Koma akutsutsa izi ndi kunyalanyaza. Ndipo mpaka pano, iwo akupita kutali. Zoona zake n'zakuti, Dennis, kuti vuto limene Julian Assange akukumana nalo tsiku ndi tsiku m'bwalo lamilandu lomwe sikuchitika mwadongosolo koma kubwezera ndi kukondera, iyeโakukumana ndi izi chifukwa amene ali ndi mphamvu pandale amalemekeza kwambiri. mdani wandale. Ndi njira yopanda malamulo kwathunthu. Zilibe chochita ndi lamulo.
Ndipo zoona zake n'zakuti zomwe zimati - milandu ya ukazitape ndi zina zonse zoneneza zowona zikanatayidwa pa tsiku loyamba la mlandu uliwonse wovomerezeka wa khothi kapena sakanafika kokhothi, poyamba. Ndakhala mโmakhoti angapo kwa zaka zambiri. Sindinamvepo chilichonse ngati izi. Pali mtundu wa - uli ngati phwando la tiyi la Alice, mukudziwa, ndi openga. Koma iwo ali serious kwambiri.
Bernstein: Ndikuganiza kuti pamene atolankhani aku US amalephera kwambiri ndi kusazindikira kwawo malamulo akunja, zochitika, ndi mbiri. Mukudziwa, katswiri pa mfundo za dziko la America ndi Thomas Friedman wa New York Times, yemwe amadziwa zochepa zambiri. Koma ndikufuna - ndikutanthauza, mwachitsanzo, nkhani yongopeka iyi yomwe idabwera yonena za anthu aku Russia omwe amalipira a Taliban kuti aphe anthu aku America.
Pilger: Eya, Dennis, ndiโanthu aku Russia anabera zisankho kwa Hilary Clinton ndipo Saddam Hussein analidi ndi zida zowononga anthu ambiri, ndi zina zotero. Ndi zongopeka chabe. Palibe chilichonse - ndikupeza kuti palibe choti tikhulupirire panoโฆ. Zongopeka: Wandale waku Russia, munthu wonyansa kwambiri, nayenso; iye si mtsogoleri wotsutsa, adadyedwa poyizoni ndi Novichok, yemwe adapangidwa kumayiko omwe kale anali Soviet Union ndipo adalowetsedwa mozizwitsa ku Berlin, komwe madotolo aku Germany amatsutsana ndi madotolo aku Russia ndikuti adamupha. Ndikutanthauza, [kuseka] mukudziwa, chilichonse chikhoza kupangidwa tsopano. Ndikutanthauza, nthawi zonse zimakonza, mwanjira imodzi. Mukudziwa, ine - ndikuganiza kuti ndinaphunzitsidwa ndekha kuti sumakhulupirira kalikonse - chabwino, sumakhulupirira kalikonse, mpaka atakanidwa. Awa anali mawu odziwika bwino a Claude Cockburn wa ku Ireland. Koma simunakhulupirire chilichonse chomwe chinali ndi magwero anzeru monga kuvomerezeka kwake. Mwachikana. Mtolankhani weniweni adazichotsa.
Tsopano, zonse zamkhutu izi ndi - zonse zili patsamba lakutsogolo ndipo zimayankhulidwa motsimikiza kwambiri pa nkhani za TV.
Izi ndi zabodza za boma pa steroids, pakadali pano. Ndikutanthauza kuti amamuseka Trump, koma ndikutanthauza, mwanjira ina, mosiyana, zowulutsa ndi zokopa zapitadi Trump, m'mphamvu ya zongopeka zake.
Bernstein: Pomaliza, John, ukudziwa, pazandale komanso pa chisankho chapulezidenti, muli ndi mbali zonse zophwanya China, nโkumaimba mlandu China, zotipangitsa kuti tikwanitse 21.st-nkhondo yazaka zana zomwe mudatichenjeza mu โNkhondo Ikubwera ku Chinaโ. Malingaliro anu pa zomwe zikubwera apa.
Pilger: Chabwino, ndikupepesa kuti filimu ya zaka zinayi zapitazo ikuwoneka kuti inali yodziwika bwino. Boma la Trump limakonda kwambiri China. Chifukwa chake, ndikamalankhula za zongopeka m'mbuyomu, tsopano tili ndi zongopeka zaku China, tsiku ndi tsiku. Tsopano, koma zomwe zikuchita zikupanga mkhalidwe pafupifupi - osati panobe, koma zikufika pamenepo, kuzingidwa ku China. Ndipo akumanga mipanda mwachangu, chitetezo chawo. Akupanga mivi yapanyanja yothandiza kwambiri, ndipo asinthidwa - monga ndikumvetsetsa, asintha kaimidwe kawo ka nyukiliya kuchoka kutcheru kwambiri kupita kutcheru kwambiri. Akuchita zinthu zosiyanasiyana zomwe analibe cholinga chochita, ndili kumeneko zaka zinayi zapitazo. Kenako adaseka [kuseka].
Tsopano, ndikuganiza kuti ali ndi nkhawa zenizeni, ndipo akukonzekera mwachangu - ku - kukonzekera kudziteteza. Ndizochitika pamene zolakwa ndi ngozi zikhoza kuchitika, ndipo awa ndi mphamvu za nyukiliya.
Anthu ayenera kumvetsetsa kuti mabodza ali - ndi oopsa. Ndi zakupha m'njira zambiri, koma zimatha kupha kwenikweni. Ikhoza kuyambitsa mikhalidwe yomwe imatsogolera kunkhondo. Ndipo ndikuganiza kuti ndizotheka, pakadali pano. Sizinachitike - sizinachitikebe, koma kuopsa kwake tsopano kwachuluka kwambiri, ndipo kumabwera tsiku ndi tsiku.
Bernstein: Pomaliza, chitani โ mukuona bwanji mmene Julian akuchitira, panokha? Kodi akukangamira? Kodi zinthu zili bwanji? Kodi tikudziwa chiyani za zinthu zakuthupi?
Pilger: Chabwino, akudikirabe. Amawoneka ngati akulemera pang'ono, zomwe ndi nkhani yabwino. Koma aliโadakali ndi vuto la mโmapapo. Amatha kupulumuka kundende komwe kwakhalako milandu ya COVID komanso imfa imodzi ya COVID. Koma chinthu chokhudza Julian ndikulimba mtima kwake, kwa ine. Ndikutanthauza, pali zinthu zambiri zochititsa chidwi kwa mwamunayo, koma kulimba mtima kwake mwina ndi [kuseka] kopambana, mmene amapitirizira. Koma iye ali. Ndipo - koma akadali munthu m'modzi yekha, ndipo zitsenderezo za mayesero awonetserowa, yesero lachiwonetsero lonyansa ndi zochitika zonse zonyansa zomwe zidatsogolera, iye ndi munthu wosalakwa. Mlandu wake wokha ndi utolankhani.
Bernstein: Mlandu wake wokha ndi utolankhani. Ndipo ndi chiyani chomwe chili pachiwopsezo, ngati ataya? Ngati Julia Assange atsekeredwa m'ndende moyo wake wonse chifukwa chochita utolankhani. Kodi timataya, kuno ku United States, Chisinthiko Choyamba? Zomwe zili pachiwopsezo?
Pilger: Chavuta ndi chiyani? Chabwino, chomwe chili pachiwopsezo, choyamba, ndi chilungamo pa izi - kwa munthu uyu, ngwaziyi. Koma m'lingaliro lalikulu, chomwe chili pachiwopsezo ndi - ndi ufulu. Ndipo sindikunena nthawi yomweyo. Ndi - ngakhale pakati pa omwe amathandizira Julian ndikumuchitira kampeni, koma ufulu wa atolankhani uli pachiwopsezo.
Chabwino, sindikuganiza kuti pali makina osindikizira aulere. Chifukwa chake, sindikutsimikiza kuti izi zili pachiwopsezo, chifukwa kulibe, ndithu osati pagulu. Koma ndikuganiza kuti ufulu wa atolankhani apaderawa, ndiye - amaimira utolankhani waulere, anthu ochita masewera olimbitsa thupi omwe alibe chochita ndi Guardian kapena New York Times kapena lililonse la mabungwewa.
Ndikuganiza kuti ali - mfundo yonse ya ufulu wawo wokhala atolankhani aulere ili pachiwopsezo. Ndithudi, koposa zonse, ndi ufulu wa tonsefe kukhala mโmadera omasuka ndi kudziลตa โ kuyankha mphamvu zazikulu, kudziwa zimene zimachita. Ndi ufulu wofunikira kwambiri womwe uli pachiwopsezo, apa.
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