Noam Chomsky adafunsidwa ndi Lev Chernyi, Toni Otter, Avid Darkly ndi Noa

Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed, April 1, 1991

Kukambirana mwachidule kumeneku kunapezedwa mwamsanga Noam Chomsky atafika ku Columbia, Missouri kudzakamba nkhani ya mutu wakuti “The New World Order” pa April 1, 1991. Mwatsoka, pamene kujambula kunayamba mkati mwa kukambirana kwathu, Noam analengeza kuti ayenera kutero. kuchoka mumphindi 5, kotero mapulani aliwonse okonzekera bwino komanso kuyankhulana kwakukulu anayenera kuthetsedwa. Ogwira ntchito m'magazini a Anarchy Lev Chernyi, Toni Otter, Avid Darkly ndi Noa adatenga nawo gawo pazokambirana. Izi ndi zomwe tidakambirana pomwe kujambula kudayamba - pomwe Noam adayankha funso lokhudza momwe amaonera anthu aku North America.

Noam Chomsky: ...

Lev Chernyi: Ndinkafunitsitsa kudziwa ngati mungayesere kuti mukhalebe ndi makina osindikizira a anarchist ku US kapena North America?

Noam: Inde, ndikuganiza kuti ndimalembetsa zambiri mwa izo - zambiri zopanda ntchito kuposa china chilichonse chomwe ndikuganiza.

Lev: Kodi mumawerengapo Fifth Estate, mwachitsanzo?

Noam: Inde.

Lev: Kodi mumamva chisoni ndi malingaliro awo odana ndi chitukuko?

Noam: Ayi kwambiri. Ndikutanthauza kuti nthawi zonse ndakhala ndikumva bwino kwambiri ndi mbali za gulu la anarchist lomwe linali ndi chidwi ndikuwona mopepuka kukhalapo kwa mafakitale ndipo ndimafuna kuti likhale laulere komanso lomasuka. Chifukwa chake ndichifukwa chake nthawi zonse ndakhala ndimakonda kwambiri miyambo ya anarcho-syndicalist. Sindikuganiza kuti pali china chilichonse chomwe chili ndi ubale weniweni ndi moyo wopitilira. Chinachake chikuyenera kuchitika kwa anthu 5 biliyoni padziko lapansi. Iwo sadzapulumuka mu Stone Age.

Lev: Kodi mudawerengapo chilichonse cholembedwa ndi Fredy Perlman, mwa mwayi uliwonse?

Noam: Zaka zapitazo.

Lev: Monga mwachitsanzo kabuku kake ka The Continuing Appeal of Nationalism? Mwamuwonapo ameneyo?

Noam: Sindingadabwe, koma sindikukumbukira bwino kuti ndifotokozerepo.

Lev: Kodi munaliona buku lake lakuti Against His-Story, Against Leviathan?

Noam: Nanenso ndaziwona, koma sindikukumbukira bwino kuti ndiyankhepo. Mukudziwa, mutu wa Against Leviathan…Sindikumvetsa tanthauzo lake ndendende. Chitukuko chili ndi mbali zambiri. Izo sizikutanthauza chirichonse kukhala kwa icho kapena chotsutsa icho.

Lev: Kumlingo wina ndi funso la semantics. Zimatengera zomwe anthu akutanthauzira chitukuko.

Noam: Chabwino, mpaka momwe chitukuko chimakhudzira kuponderezana, ndithudi, mukutsutsa. Koma n’chimodzimodzinso ndi dongosolo lina lililonse la anthu. Inunso mumatsutsana ndi kuponderezedwa pamenepo.

Lev: Ndawonapo ndemanga zanu m'mbuyomu zomwe mumalankhula kwambiri zachitukuko chaku Western Europe. Ndemanga zanu zitha kumveka ngati pangakhale kuyesa kudzudzula chitukuko chonse, m'malo mongoganiza kuti chilichonse chili mkati mwachitukuko ndikungodzudzula mbali zotsogola kwambiri.

Noam: Koma ungapereke bwanji chitsutso cha chitukuko chotere? Ndikutanthauza, mwachitsanzo, gulu la anarchist ndi chitukuko. Ili ndi maphunziro. Ili ndi chikhalidwe. Ili ndi maubwenzi ochezera. Ili ndi mitundu yambiri yamagulu. M'malo mwake, ngati ndi gulu la anarchist lingakhale lokonzekera kwambiri. Zikanakhala ndi miyambo…zosintha miyambo. Zingakhale ndi ntchito zopanga. Kodi chimenecho si chitukuko m’njira yotani?

Lev: Ngati mukugwiritsa ntchito mawu oti chitukuko kufotokoza zomwe zidakulirakulira kuyambira chiyambi cha mzinda ndi kukula kwa boma, kapena kutsutsana ndi magulu akale, amtundu woyamba komanso magulu omwe adakalipobe. zokopa ndi zokopa padziko lonse lapansi, ndiyenso….

Noam: Chabwino, mukutanthauza ziti? Zina mwa izo ndi zonyansa kwambiri. Zina mwa mitundu yoipitsitsa ya kuponderezana ndi nkhanza zili m'mabungwe aukadaulo asanakhalepo.

Lev: Ndikuganiza kusiyana kwakukulu ndikuti mitundu yawo yankhondo ndi zinthu zina sizinakonzedwe kuti ziwononge chiwonongeko chachikulu. Ndi more a….

 

Noam: Si zoona! Ndikutanthauza kuti mitundu yawo yankhondo nthawi zambiri imatha kupha fuko. Mwachitsanzo, werengani Baibulo. Limenelo linali laumisiri waumisiri, ndipo ndilo buku lopha anthu ambiri m’mabuku athu ovomerezeka, kapena limene lilipo.

Lev: Ndikuganiza, zomwe ndikunenanso, mukunena za ...

Nowa: Awa anali mafuko akubwera m’chipululu.

Lev: …mabungwe akale kapena akale omwe ali kumbali yosagwirizana ndi….

Noam: O, sindikudziwa. Mudzapeza mitundu yonse ya zinthu. Mupeza madera amasiku ano omwe ali omasuka, ndipo ali pakati pamakampani amakono.

Lev: Kotero kwenikweni, mukungonena kuti simukuwona phindu lililonse potsata mtundu wa kutsutsa kwachitukuko chamakono kuchokera kumalingaliro obwerera ku chiyambi cha chitukuko.

Noam: Mukudziwa mukabwerera ku chiyambi cha chitukuko mumapeza zinthu zamtundu uliwonse. Ndikutanthauza chiyani mumatcha chiyambi cha chitukuko? Kumbuyo kotani, ndi Stone Age? Mwachitsanzo, panali zaka zikwi zambiri zamagulu a anthu osauka asanakhazikitsidwe mizinda-mizinda, asanapangidwe kulemba ndi zina zotero. Ngati magulu a anthu osaukawo ali ngati omwe timawawona, ndi malo oyipa kwambiri. Magulu a anthu wamba amatha kukhala ankhanza komanso akupha komanso owononga, mu ubale wawo wamkati komanso mu ubale wawo wina ndi mnzake. Chithunzi cha anthu wamba ngati malo amtendere, ochezeka ndi osocheretsa kwambiri. Pali zina, mukudziwa, koma osati kwenikweni….

Toni Otter: Magulu a anthu osauka ndi aposachedwa.

Noam: Pali magulu a anthu osauka omwe amabwerera zaka zikwi zisanu ndi ziwiri kapena zisanu ndi zitatu, kuyambira pachiyambi chaulimi.

Toni: Inde, koma tiyeni tinene kuti fuko la Ulaya lisanayambe Ufumu wa Roma. Ndikutanthauza, zedi, pali kusakanikirana kwa nkhanza ndi ... Tsopano iwo anali achibale a imperialists a nthawi yawo ...

Nowa: Ndipo anali amapha.

Toni: …ndipo anali akupha….

Noam: Chimodzi mwa zifukwa zomwe ofufuza a ku Spain anali ndi nthawi yophweka ndikuti adatenga mosavuta othandizira omwe ankafuna kugonjetsa Incadom.

Toni: Ndipo ena mwa ogwira nawo ntchito mwina anali akupha komanso ...

Noam: Atha kutero, koma mfundo ndi yakuti iwo, mukudziwa kuti Aaziteki makamaka anali ogonjetsa posachedwapa, ogonjetsa posachedwapa, ankhanza kwambiri.

Toni: ...

Noam: Si onse.

Toni: ... monga momwe zilili tsopano ndi kusakaniza zomwe chikhalidwe chiri. Zikuwoneka kwa ine nthawi zina pamene anthu amatsutsa chitukuko akutsutsa kukula kwa ziwerengero zamagulu, zamitundu ina yamagulu omwe akulirakulira makamaka m'zaka zamakono zamakono. Koma, mukudziwa, mutha kutsutsa ukapitalizimu, koma ndiye muyenera kutsutsa utsogoleri, ndipo mwatero….

Avid Mdima: Chabwino, zikuwoneka kwa ine kuti kudzudzula capitalism ndi abambo akudzudzula mbali zachitukuko. Kenako tiyenera kuyang'ana chida chotsutsa zinthu. Tikuyang'ana zomwe tingachite kuti tichotse mulu wa mbiri yakale kuti tipange maubwenzi athu, maubale athu otalikirana kwambiri. Kodi tikudzudzula chitukuko kuti titenge a Kalahari Bushmen ngati chitsanzo cha dziko lapansi. Ndikutanthauza mwina mu mbali yaing'ono ya chiyanjano. Ndikutanthauza chiyani? Kudzudzula chitukuko kuli koyenera ngati kuli m'maganizo zomwe tili….

Noam: Chabwino, tiyerekeze kuti Kalahari Bushmen anali kukhala mu utopia mtheradi. Izi sizowona, koma tiyerekeze kuti zidakhala zoona. Kodi ife tikanati…zimene sizingatiuze kalikonse za dziko lino. Ndi dziko losiyana. Ndikutanthauza kuti muyenera kuyamba, ngati mukufuna kukhala pachibale ndi dziko limene anthu akukhalamo, muyenera kuyamba ndi kukhalapo kwa dziko lapansi ndikufunsa momwe lingasinthidwe.

Nowa: Chabwino, tiyerekeze kuti tiyamba ndi kukhalapo kwa dziko limenelo. Tengani china chake ngati kutsutsa kwa Jacques Ellul mu The Technological Society, pomwe ukadaulo womwewo umawoneka kuti uli ndi moyo wake womwe uli ngati likulu, zomwe ndi zowononga ...

Noam: Mumakhulupirira zimenezo? Ine sindimakhulupirira zimenezo. Ndikuganiza kuti ukadaulo pawokha ndiwosalowerera ndale. Mutha kugwiritsa ntchito ukadaulo pazinthu zabwino kwambiri.

Nowa: Chabwino, momwe ukadaulo umatanthawuza ... moyo wake womwe, ndiye umakhala mphamvu ya ulamuliro. Koma teknoloji….

Toni: Ivan Illich mu Zida za Conviviality, mwachitsanzo, amalankhula za zinthu zomwezo, zikuwoneka ngati.

Noam: Zitha, koma zimatengera mabungwe omwe amakhalamo. Ndikutanthauza, mwachitsanzo, gulu laufulu lingafune kugwiritsa ntchito ukadaulo wapamwamba kwambiri womwe ulipo, ndipo angafune kupititsa patsogolo. Tengani china chake, tengani ukadaulo wamakono monga, tinene, ukadaulo wokonza zidziwitso. Inu mukudziwa, izo zikhoza kugwiritsidwa ntchito kupondereza; angagwiritsidwe ntchito kumasula. Ndikutanthauza, itha kugwiritsidwa ntchito, mwachitsanzo, ngati chipangizo chokhala ndi zenizeni ... kutenga, kunena, kudzikonzekeretsa pa ntchito ... kuti athe kutenga nawo gawo mwademokalase pakuwongolera malo ogwirira ntchito ndi kupanga mozama. Popanda ukadaulo uwu….

Toni: Koma chimene chinatanthauza kwa ine chinali chakuti ntchito yathu inawonjezeka kanayi. Anathamangitsa olemba mabuku. Iwo anaphatikiza izo mu wanga…

Noam: Ndiko kulondola. Ndiko kulondola, chifukwa zili mkati mwa mabungwe omwe alipo. Koma ukadaulo womwewo sunali wandale. Ukadaulo womwewo ukadagwiritsidwa ntchito pokhazikitsa demokalase pantchito. Ukadaulo wokha ndiwosalowerera. Mutha kugwiritsa ntchito chilichonse…

Lev: Pamlingo wakutiwakuti mungathe. Koma kodi muli ndi njira iliyonse yoganizira momwe ntchito zonse zamigodi ndi fakitale zomwe zimapangidwira kupanga ukadaulo wamtunduwu zikukwanira? Kodi mukuganiza kuti pakhoza kukhala gulu lomasuka lomwe lingatheke pomwe anthu amatenga nawo gawo mu mtundu wa ntchito yomwe ingakhale yofunikira, mtundu wa ntchito yosonkhanitsa….

Noam: Koma ndizomwe ukadaulo wapamwamba uyenera kuchotsa. Ntchito zambiri zamtundu wamtundu wa msonkhano zitha kuthetsedwa pogwiritsa ntchito umisiri wapamwamba kwambiri, mwachitsanzo ma robotiki. Ndikutanthauza kuti zitha kuthetsa ntchito zambiri zomwe anthu samayenera kuchita.

Lev: Kodi simukuwona vuto lililonse ndiukadaulo wamtunduwu - ma robotiki pamlingo waukulu - kukhala osalamulirika kuposa momwe zilili pano chifukwa…?

Noam: Izi ndi zoona, mwamtheradi. M'magulu otsogola, opondereza anthu maloboti atanthauza chiwonongeko chachikulu. Koma funso nlakuti, mabungwe ndi ati? Maloboti nawonso salowerera ndale. Maloboti pawokha atha kugwiritsidwa ntchito kuthetsa ntchito yonyozeka. Zitha kugwiritsidwa ntchito kupondereza anthu. Ndipo funso ndilakuti ikupita patsogolo m'mabungwe otani?

Lev: Ndikuganiza kuti funso lenileni kwa ine lingakhale kuti kodi anthu angakwanitse bwanji kuwongolera izi…?

Noam: M'gulu laufulu amawongolera mwademokalase. Mwachitsanzo, tengani Mondragon (yomwe si mgwirizano weniweni, koma ili pang'ono). Tiyerekeze kuti tili ndi Mondragon, idakali ndi ulamuliro woyang'anira ndi zina zotero, koma tikadakhala kuti mungathe kulingalira mumtundu woterewu anthu ogwira ntchito amasonkhana pamodzi ndikusankha kuthamangitsa mamenejala kuti apange zisankho za ogwira ntchito, pogwiritsa ntchito nthawi yeniyeni. chidziwitso chomwe chilipo ndiukadaulo wapamwamba ndikuchotsa ntchito zonyansa zopenga ndi maloboti. Ndi zotheka. Osachepera chimenecho chingakhale cholinga chabwino kugwirira ntchito, ndipo akufuna ukadaulo wabwino kwambiri.

Lev: Kodi mukuwona kuti ndi njira ya anthu omwe adapangidwa mwaufulu kuti athe kuwongolera momwe ukadaulo wagwiritsidwira ntchito? Ndipo kuti sizikanangokhala ngati teknoloji ili ndi mphamvu yakeyake, kumene kungakhale kovuta kukhala ndi ulamuliro weniweni? Mwachitsanzo, ngati galimoto. Magalimoto apanganso mizinda yonse m'maiko otukuka kuti akwaniritse zosowa zawo….

Noam: Chabwino si magalimoto omwe achita izi; ndi oyang'anira mabungwe omwe amayendetsa makampani amagalimoto. Ndikutanthauza kuti kuchotsa zoyendera za anthu onse ku Los Angeles sikunali chisankho chagalimoto. Chinali chigamulo cha oyang'anira General Motors.

Avid: Saint Louis anali ofanana.

Noa: Koma, chinthu chimodzi chomwe mukunena kuti sindingathe kugula ndikuti ukadaulo sulowerera ndale, chifukwa ukadaulo ndi mbiri yakale, chitukuko chaukadaulo. Chotero magalimoto anapangidwa kukhala bizinesi yaikulu, kunena ndi Henry Ford kapena aliyense, kuti athandize zosowa zina mwanjira inayake. Mwa kuyankhula kwina pali ndondomeko ya ndale kumbuyo kwa kukhalapo kwa galimoto. Ndipo ndondomeko imeneyo imatsogolera ku kuipitsa dziko lapansi. Zimayambitsa kudzipatula kwa anthu.

Noam: M'mabungwe awa amatero. Koma siziyenera kutero mumagulu ena. Pamene teknoloji ikukula ndi gawo la machitidwe a chikhalidwe cha anthu ndipo motero amakhala ndi khalidwe linalake kutengera mabungwewo. Ilo siliri vuto muukadaulo. Ndilo vuto m'mabungwe a anthu. Sizinthu zonse zamakono, monga zida zankhondo, zomwe zilibe ntchito. Koma, titi, magalimoto, ma robotiki kapena kukonza zidziwitso, pamenepo mutha kukhala ndiukadaulo womasula. Iwo ali ndi mwayi womasula.

Avid: Zikuwoneka kuti ngati anthu akadakhala okhulupilika kuzinthu zachilengedwe ndiye kuti titha kusokoneza ukadaulo molingana ndi ...

Noam: Osati zokhazo, koma chinthu chokhacho chomwe chingathetse mavuto a chilengedwe ndiukadaulo wapamwamba….

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Panthawiyi zokambiranazo zidatha pomwe Noam adanyamuka kukonzekera kukakumana ndi omwe adakonza maphunziro ake komanso zochitika zina zomwe zidakonzedwa ku Yunivesite ya Missouri. Gulu lofalitsa magazini ya Anarchy, C.A.L., linali m'modzi mwa othandizira nawo pankhani ya Chomsky. Mafunsowo adawonekera koyamba mu Anarchy: A Journal of Desire Armed #29, Summer 1991, masamba 27 & 29.

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