Raúl Zibechi ndi mtolankhani waku Uruguay komanso m'modzi mwa akatswiri azandale ku Latin America. Iye ndi katswiri wapadziko lonse lapansi Kusiyana ku Uruguay, ndi pulofesa ku Multiversidad Franciscana de América Latina. Zibechi adalemba mabuku ambiri okhudza kayendetsedwe ka anthu komanso ndale ku America konse, kuphatikiza Magawo Otsutsana: Chithunzi Chojambula cha Latin American Social Movements ndi Dispersing Power: Social Movements monga Anti-State Forces.
Kuufulu posachedwapa analankhula ndi Zibechi za zotsatira za maboma opita patsogolo ku South America, kukwera kwa kumanja kwakutali, ndale za extractivism m'mafakitale amafuta, gasi, ndi migodi, ndi momwe amayi ndi achinyamata akuyimira chiyembekezo chomanga dziko latsopano. Chochititsa chidwi kwambiri ndi Zibechi muzokambiranazi ndi njira zomwe magulu a anthu a m'derali adzitsitsimutsira okha poyang'anizana ndi mgwirizano wa boma ndi mafunde atsopano olondola.
Jeff Abbott: Kodi chikhalidwe chamagulu ku South America chikuchitika bwanji patatha zaka khumi za Progressivism?
Raúl Zibechi: M'zaka zapitazi za 10, magulu a anthu akhala akuvutika ndi kufooka kwakukulu komanso chizolowezi chosokoneza, kupatulapo mayendedwe a amayi, makamaka mayendedwe omenyera ufulu wachikazi kum'mwera kwa South America, ndi mayendedwe achibadwidwe, omwe onse amakhalabe ndi mphamvu.
Ndikukhulupirira kuti ndale za maboma opita patsogolo, makamaka ndale za ndalama zothandizira kapena kupititsa ndalama kumagulu otchuka kuti aphatikize atsogoleri a kayendetsedwe ka maboma atulutsa chiwonongeko chachikulu, mayendedwe achotsedwa pamlingo winawake. Chowonjezera ndichakuti maboma omwe akupita patsogolo adagwiritsa ntchito nkhani zamagulu azachitukuko: Amalankhula za ufulu wa anthu, amalankhula zakusintha kwazaulimi, ndipo pali maboma monga a Bolivia omwe amadzitcha kuti ndi boma lamagulu a anthu.
Pamsonkhano waposachedwapa wa Consejo Latinoamericano de Ciencias Sociales [Latin American Council of Social Sciences, bungwe losafufuza za boma], [Pulezidenti wakale wa Argentina] Cristina Fernandez adanena kuti magulu a anthu anayamba mu 2003 ndi boma la Kirchner. Pele kuli basi piqueteros [makamaka ogwira ntchito omwe alibe ntchito akufuna kusintha kwa ndale ndi chikhalidwe cha anthu kudzera mu ziwonetsero komanso kutsekeka kwamisewu], adatero. Ndikukhulupirira kuti pano pali cholakwika chachikulu, koma koposa zonse pali ndale zogwirizanitsa ndikugwirizanitsa magulu a anthu. Chotsatira chake ndi chakuti mayendedwe ambiri amakhala ofooka kwambiri.
JA: Kodi Extractivism yafalikiranso pansi pa maboma a Progressive awa?
RZ: Ndikofunika kuzindikira kuti extractivism ndiyo chitsanzo chofunika kwambiri ku Latin America. Dziko lililonse lomwe lili ndi maboma kuchokera kumanja kapena kumanzere likuchita ntchito zongowonjezera. Koma chikhalidwe cha maboma omwe akupita patsogolo ndikuti palibe chomwe achita kuti achoke kumbuyo.
Mwachitsanzo, dziko la Venezuela masiku ano limadalira kwambiri mafuta a petroleum kusiyana ndi Chávez asanayambe kulamulira. Ku Brazil, extractivism yadzetsa kuchepa kwakukulu kwa mafakitale ndikuyambitsa vuto la mafakitale chifukwa cha ulimi. Zomwe zimatumizidwa kunja ku Brazil ndi soya ndi chitsulo.
Chitsanzo cha extractivism chalimbikitsidwa ndi Progressivism. Osati chifukwa cha kulakwa kwa maboma opita patsogolo, chifukwa ndi mawonekedwe a hegemonic m'deralo, koma chifukwa Progressivism sankadziwa kusiya chitsanzo ichi. Uku ndikutsutsa kofunikira. Tinkayembekezera kuti kupita patsogolo kukanachita china chake, koma [zomwe maboma opita patsogolo] adachita zinali zofanana.
Iyi ndi nkhani yaikulu, chifukwa extractivism ili ndi mavuto ambiri, monga chilengedwe [zovuta], zomwe timadziwa. Komabe, extractivism imapanga anthu ochulukirapo. Mutu wa gawo limodzi mwa magawo zana umalumikizidwa mwachindunji ndi extractivism, yomwe imadalira ndalama zachuma. [Extractivism] imagawanitsa madera ndipo sipatsa anthu ntchito zolemekezeka. Izi ndi zomwe tawona m'zaka zapitazi za 10-15 ndi maboma omwe akupita patsogolo komanso osamala.
JA: Kodi izi zathandizira bwanji kukwera kwa mapiko abwino mzaka zingapo zapitazi?
RZ: Ndikukhulupirira kuti kukwera kwaufulu ndi chotsatira cha ndale zopanda kanthu zomwe zimayambitsidwa ndi zopita patsogolo, zomwe zimasokoneza kayendetsedwe ka anthu. Palibe zochitika zamakono zomwe mayendedwe ali muzochitika kuti ayankhe mwamsanga kukwera kwa ufulu.
Panorama ndi yovuta kwambiri. Ndikhoza kukupatsani chitsanzo cha Spain. Gulu lamphamvu kwambiri la chikhalidwe cha anthu linatuluka mu 2011 ku Spain. Komabe phwando la Podemos lachepetsa chikhalidwe cha anthu kukhala malo osungiramo zinthu - chinali chofooka. Ndipo posakhalitsa kudabadwa chipani chatsopano chakumanja, ndipo lero alowa mu nyumba ya malamulo ndi mipando yosachepera khumi ndi iwiri. Pamene mayendedwe achoka chifukwa chake ndipo akasiya ndale zawo, mapiko oyenera adzagwiritsa ntchito malowa.
Masiku ano ku Brazil, palibe gulu limodzi lomwe limatha kuthana ndi Bolsonaro, ngakhale pazifukwa kapena malingaliro. Kusunthaku kuli pachimake chodzitchinjiriza kwambiri ndipo sali m'mikhalidwe yolimbana ndi zolimbikitsa za omvera a Bolsonaro.
Ndikukhulupirira kuti padzakhalabe nthawi yabwino kuti omenyera ufulu athe kuthana ndi kumanja. Sizikhala chaka chino kapena chaka chamawa [mu 2018 kapena 2019]. Ndipo tidzawona.
Kwa ine, mbiri imayenda ngati pendulum. Pakali pano, pendulum ikupita kumanja. Ndipo pakali pano, mikhalidwe ikupangidwa kuti mayendedwe ayambenso kukhumudwitsa.
JA: Ndi pendulum iyi, titha kulankhula za 1968 ndi mayendedwe otsutsana ndi maulamuliro ankhanza kudera lonselo?
RZ: Ngati tiphunzira kuchokera ku mbiriyakale, zomwe tiyenera kuchita ndikubwezeretsanso ntchito ya maziko; kuchiritsira ntchito m'mabarrios kapena m'madera; ntchito mwachindunji ndi chiwerengero cha anthu, bungwe, mapangidwe a ndale, ndi mphamvu zowona osati nthawi yochepa, koma nthawi yayitali.
Vuto lalikulu lomwe lidachitika ndi maboma opita patsogolo ndikuti mayendedwe analibenso masomphenya anzeru - ine sindimakonda mawu oti "strategic," popeza ndi gulu lankhondo. Koma masomphenya a nthawi yaitali.
Izi ndi zomwe a Zapatistas amatanthauza akamalankhula za mphepo [mkuntho]. Amanena kuti pali zisankho, pali zochitika zatsopano, koma sitingaiwale kuti m'zaka zapakati mpaka nthawi yayitali, tikukhala mu ndale ndi zachuma [zenizeni] zonyansa zomwe ndizofunikira kulimbana nazo. Chifukwa chake, zonse zomwe tikuchita lero ziyenera kuganiziridwa munthawi yapakati / yayitali. Magulu ayenera kuganizira za chuma: tidzisamalira bwanji tokha? Kodi tithetsa bwanji vuto la madzi? Kodi tithetsa bwanji vuto lachitetezo? Ndipo mndandanda wonse wazinthu zomwe lero zilibe njira zothetsera mavuto, koma m'zaka 5-10 tikhoza kuganiza za njira zothetsera mavuto.
Pa nthawi ya ulamuliro wankhanza, maguluwo ankadzilimbitsa okha. M'kanthawi kochepa, ndondomeko yachisankho inachotsedwa pa ndondomeko. Muulamuliro wankhanza simungaganize za chisankho chotsatira. Muyenera kuganizira zomwe zimakupangitsani kukhala wamphamvu pakapita nthawi.
JA: Ponena za a Zapatistas, amawonetsa bwanji mbiri ya kukana kwa magulu achikhalidwe ku Latin America?
RZ: Anthu amtundu wamba komanso aku America aku America amadziwa bwino lomwe kuti mosasamala kanthu za yemwe wasankhidwa zinthu sizingasinthe pokhapokha atasintha. Njira yokhayo yomwe ali nayo ndi kulimbikitsa kudziyimira pawokha, luso lawo lokonzekera, ndi kuthekera kwawo kupanga zisankho. Mwachibadwa ndondomekoyi imatifikitsa kupyola nthawi yomweyo ndi zomwe zimachitika pa chisankho.
Kwa ine ili ndi funso lofunika kwambiri, chifukwa limatiyika ife pamalo omwe ndale sizikupangidwa ndi omwe ali ndi mphamvu, koma anthu. Ndikukhulupirira kuti tili mumkhalidwe wabwino ngati izi zichitika. […] Ngati ine, monga gulu, ngati ndimasewera mphamvu zanga zonse pakanthawi kochepa - mwachitsanzo pazachisankho, mwachitsanzo - ndiye kuti ndikuchotsa zida kwa nthawi yayitali. Ndikukhulupirira mu mgwirizano uwu tikhoza kuthetsa mavuto amasiku ano, koma m'njira zomwe sizimapanga ngongole zanyumba chaka chamawa kapena zaka zisanu.
JA: Ndi zitsanzo ziti zina kupatula a Zapatistas ammudzi omwe adakwanitsa kupanga ufulu wawo?
RZ: Ndikuwona njira yosangalatsa kwambiri kum'mwera kwa Chile, komwe ndili pano. Dziko la Mapuche lapanga mikhalidwe yoti apitilize kulimbikitsa mtundu wa Mapuche kwa nthawi yayitali. Mwachitsanzo, m'masiku angapo apitawa nkhani ya anthu ammudzi wa Temucuicui komwe Carabinieri anapha Camilo Catrillanca zakhala zili munkhani. A Mapuche a chigawo chino m’zaka 10 zapitazi apezanso malo okwana mahekitala zikwi zana limodzi. Kubwezeretsanso nthaka ndi chinthu chomwe chimalola kulimbikitsana kwa anthu kapena mgwirizano wamagulu kuti akhazikitse ntchito zanthawi yayitali.
Chitsanzo china ndi nkhani ya a Nasa [anthu obadwa kumene] a m’dipatimenti ya kum’mwera kwa Colombia ku Cauca, amene akhala ndi mavuto ambiri chifukwa chakuti achita zinthu zambiri zotsutsana, zimene zili ndi mikhalidwe yonga ya boma. Komabe amasunga minda yawo, pomwe akuika malire oletsa migodi.
Nayi mfundo yowonjezereka: Popanda malo ndi gawo, zomwe ndi zinthu ziwiri zosiyana, ndizovuta kwambiri kuti kayendetsedwe kake kakhale kokhazikika pakapita nthawi. Izi zili choncho chifukwa malowa ndi omwe amakulolani kupanga maubwenzi osagwirizana ndi capitalism, kapena kunena mwanjira ina, ammudzi. Maubwenzi awa, omwe ndi osiyana ndi maubwenzi a hegemonic, ndi omwe amakulolani kuti musinthe malo kukhala gawo. Kusiyanitsa pakati pa malo ndi gawo ndi zomwe mumachita ndi nthaka; ndi dziko mutha kupanga dziko latsopano kapena losiyana ndi dziko la hegemonic [dziko].
JA: Monga a Zapatistas.
RZ: Monga a Zapatistas, kapena ngati Landless Workers Movement (MST) ku Brazil. Mwachitsanzo, MST inafooka kwambiri panthawi ya boma la Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva. Koma m'zaka ziwiri zapitazi, ayamba ndondomeko kuchokera ku maziko omwe amayi, achinyamata, ndi mamembala a gulu la LGBTQ anayamba kukonzekera mkati mwa gululo kuti zofuna zawo zimveke panthawi yonseyi. Mwa njira iyi, ndondomekoyi inatembenuka, ndipo kayendetsedwe kake kanayamba kutsitsimutsidwa.
N'chifukwa chiyani unatsitsimutsidwa? Tsopano panali ochita masewera atsopano - achinyamata, amayi, ndi LGBTQ, anayamba kuyambitsa, ndipo mwachidwi, makamaka pa chikhalidwe cha campesino, zinthuzi zinathandizira kulimbikitsa kayendetsedwe kake. Njirayi yangoyamba kumene, koma imayamba kuchokera kumalo atsopano omwe amalankhula bwino za kayendetsedwe kake, ndipo adatsegula bwino kayendetsedwe kake ku mitu iyi.
Lero tili mu nthawi ya mtundu watsopano. Masiku ano amayi ndi achinyamata ali ndi udindo waukulu ku Latin America yonse. Mayendedwe omwe alola ndikupititsa patsogolo gulu la achinyamata ndi amayi ndi omwe atsitsimutsidwa. Msonkhano wa Zapatistas ku Morelia kapena msonkhano wa amayi mu March wa [2018] ndi nkhani iyi. Nachi chofunikira kwambiri: Theka la a Zapatistas ndi ochepera zaka 20. Ndi gulu lomwe lili ndi tsogolo.
JA: Ndi gulu lachinyamata tsopano?
RZ: Ndi gulu laling'ono kwambiri. Misonkhano imeneyi imasonyeza kupezeka kwa achinyamata komanso kusintha kwa chikhalidwe cha makolo awo. Monga mukudziwira bwino, gulu silingathe kuberekanso chikhalidwe cha hegemonic. Gulu lachitukuko limakhalanso kusintha kwa chikhalidwe. A Zapatistas adachita msonkhano wa amayi, kumene chikhalidwe cha chikhalidwe chimakhala cha makolo, ndiyeno msonkhano wokhudza mafilimu - zimasonyeza kuti pali kusintha kosangalatsa kwa chikhalidwe komwe kukuchitika.
JA: Kodi mukuwona kusintha kotereku m'madera aku Latin America?
RZ: Amapuche ali mumchitidwe wosangalatsa kwambiri. Ndinakumana ndi gulu loimba Comunidad de Historia Mapuche, omwe ndi gulu la Amapuche omwe adaphunzira ku yunivesite ndipo adabwerera kumadera awo ndikugwiritsa ntchito maphunziro awo kulimbikitsa chikhalidwe cha communitarian.
Catrillanca, yemwe wangophedwa kumene, anali ndi zaka zosakwana 30. Gulu lamphamvu kwambiri masiku ano ndi Alianza Territorial Mapuche, ndipo kwenikweni ndi achinyamata onse. Nkhani ina yomwe ndinanena ndi ya MST pomwe azimayi, achinyamata, ndi mamembala a LGBT akutenga gawo lalikulu. Izi ndizofunika kusintha kwa chikhalidwe chomwe chikusintha chikhalidwe cha ndale zamagulu.
Jeff Abbott ndi mtolankhani wodziyimira pawokha yemwe akuchokera ku Guatemala. Ntchito yake yawonekera mu The Progressive, Al Jazeera English, ndi Los Angeles Times. Tsatirani iye pa Twitter @palabrasdeabajo.
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Chifukwa cha zovuta zamapulogalamu athu zomwe tangotha kuzikonza tsopano, patha chaka chimodzi kuchokera pamene tinasonkhanitsa ndalama zomaliza. Zotsatira zake, tikufunika thandizo lanu kuposa kale kuti tipitilize kubweretsa zina zomwe mwakhala mukuyang'ana kwa zaka 30.
Z imapereka nkhani zothandiza kwambiri zomwe tingathe, koma poweruza zomwe zili zothandiza, mosiyana ndi magwero ena ambiri timagogomezera masomphenya, malingaliro, ndi kufunikira kwa omenyera ufulu. Tikamalankhula ndi Trump, mwachitsanzo, ndikupeza njira zopitilira Trump, osati kungobwereza, mobwerezabwereza, momwe alili woyipa. N'chimodzimodzinso ndi kuthana ndi kutentha kwa dziko, umphawi, kusalingana, kusankhana mitundu, kusankhana mitundu, ndi kupanga nkhondo. Cholinga chathu nthawi zonse ndi chakuti zomwe timapereka zimakhala ndi kuthekera kothandizira kudziwa zoyenera kuchita, komanso momwe tingachitire bwino.
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