Ke alo nei ʻo ʻIseraʻela i kahi hoʻokolokolo kaua hewa o ka International Criminal Court no kāna hoʻouka kaua ʻana ma Gaza i ka makahiki 2014, ka mea i pepehi ma mua o 2,100 Palestinians, me nā keiki he 500. No ka mea hou aku, kamaʻilio mākou me Norman Finkelstein, ka mea kākau o ka puke hou "Gaza: An Inquest into Its Martyrdom." ʻO ia ka mea kākau o nā puke ʻē aʻe he nui, ʻo ia hoʻi "The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Human Suffering" a me "Knowing Too Much: Why the American Jewish Romance with Israel Is Coming to an End."
AMY GOODMAN: Ma mua o ko mākou hele ʻana e kamaʻilio nui e pili ana iā Gaza, makemake wau e nīnau koke iā ʻoe i kou manaʻo i ka manaʻo o ka Pelekikena Trump e ʻike iā Ierusalema ʻo ke kapikala, e ʻōlelo ana e neʻe ʻo ia i ka ʻAmelika Hui Pū ʻIa mai Tel Aviv, ka pane nui i ka United Nations ma hope o kona hoʻolaha ʻana i kēia ʻike ʻana, ʻo ke koho balota nui loa e kūʻē iā ʻAmelika Hui Pū ʻIa, a me ʻAmelika Hui Pū ʻIa e hoʻoweliweli ana i ka poʻe i koho kūʻē iā lākou.
Norman FINKELSTEIN: ʻAe, he nīnau paʻakikī kēia, pehea e hana ai ke kulekele US-Israeli. Akā ma ka laulā, hiki iā ʻoe ke ʻōlelo, i ka wā e pili ana nā pono aupuni nui o US, he liʻiliʻi ka mana o ka lobby Israel. Ua ʻike mākou, no ka laʻana, i ka wā o ke kūkākūkā ʻana no ka ʻaelike me Iran. ʻO ia ka makemake nui o ka honua o ʻAmelika. Ua kūʻē ka lobby iā ia. Ua kūʻē ʻo Netanyahu iā ia. Akā ua hele ka ʻaelike. A ʻo ka nui o nā mea kākoʻo ikaika o ka ʻIseraʻela-Dianne Feinstein, Nancy Pelosi, ka hui holoʻokoʻa-ua kākoʻo lākou i ka ʻaelike.
Akā inā ʻaʻole pili ka makemake nui o US, ikaika loa ka lobby. No laila e lawe ʻoe, i kēia hihia kūikawā, ua maopopo ka poʻe Saudis, ʻo ia ka makemake nui o ʻAmelika, ʻaʻole mālama i ka mea a ka US i hana ai me Ierusalema. Hāʻawi lākou i ke kukui ʻōmaʻomaʻo: "Inā makemake ʻoe e hāʻawi iā ʻIseraʻela, maikaʻi ia iā mākou. ʻAʻole mākou mālama." No laila, ʻaʻohe kuleana kūlohelohe o US e pili ana, a no laila hana ʻo Trump i ka mea a kekahi e hana ai: Ua uku ʻo ia i kāna mau mea hāʻawi. I kēia hihia, ʻo ia ʻo Sheldon Adelson, ka billionaire casino, nāna i kākoʻo ikaika i ka ʻike ʻana o ʻAmelika iā Ierusalema ma ke ʻano he kapikala nui ʻole o ka ʻIseraʻela.
Akā pono mākou e hoʻomanaʻo, ʻaʻole ʻo Trump wale nō. ʻIke ʻoe, i kekahi manawa makemake ka poʻe media e hōʻiliʻili iā Trump. A poina lākou ʻaʻole ʻo Trump wale nō. ʻO Charles Schumer, ke alakaʻi liʻiliʻi o ka Senate i kēia manawa, ua hoʻouka mau ʻo Schumer iā Trump, ma hope o kona koho ʻia ʻana: "No ke aha ʻoe e ʻike ʻole ai iā Ierusalema ʻo ke kapikala ʻokoʻa?" I ka ʻike ʻana o Trump, ʻo Schumer, ʻo Charles Schumer, ʻōlelo ʻo ia, "Ua hana ʻo ia noʻu. ʻO wau ka mea i koi aku iā ia e ʻike iā Ierusalema ʻo ke kapikala o ka ʻIseraʻela. No laila ke ʻōlelo nei ke alakaʻi liʻiliʻi o ka Senate. A no ke kumu hoʻokahi - inā ʻoe e nānā i ke kālā a Schumer, loaʻa iā ia ka hapa nui mai nā conservative, nā ʻēheu ʻākau a me Wall Street, nā kumu waiwai like me Trump, nā kahawai o ka loaʻa kālā.
A ma kēia mau nīnau, ʻoi aku ka nui o nā Democrats, me Schumer-a ʻo Schumer paha, ʻoi aku ka maikaʻi ma mua o Trump. No laila, no ka laʻana, ma hope o ka Mavi Marmara hanana i ka makahiki 2010, i ka wā i pepehi ai ʻo ʻIseraʻela i nā poʻe holo ma luna o ka moku kanaka, ka Mavi Marmara, pepehi 10 ohua, Charles Schumer, hele aku la ia i mua o ka hui o ka Orthodox Iudaio, a olelo mai la oia, "Ua koho ka poe o Gaza no Hamas. Ua koho lākou iā Hamas, a no laila, ʻo ka hoʻokele waiwai ke ala e hele ai. Ano, e hoomanao i ke ano o ia mea. Ke kamaʻilio nei mākou e pili ana i ka heluna kanaka, ʻoi aku ma mua o ka hapalua o lākou he mau keiki, e noho ana ma lalo o ka hoʻopuni ʻana. A ʻo kāna mea e ʻōlelo maikaʻi ai, e hoʻomau mākou i ka pōloli iā lākou, a hiki i ko lākou koho ʻana a hoʻopau paha iā Hamas. I kēia manawa, he aha kāu e ʻōlelo ai no kahi mea like?
ʻIke ʻoe, ʻo Charles Schumer, ua hele ʻo ia i koʻu kula kiʻekiʻe, e like me Bernie Sanders. ʻAʻole wau i ʻike iā ia. ʻEhā mau makahiki ma mua oʻu. Ua ʻike maikaʻi au i kona kaikuahine ʻo Fran. Alohilohi loa. ʻIke ʻoe, ʻoiai i kēia manawa, ke nānā nei i hope kokoke i ka hapalua haneli, ke kū mau nei ʻo ia i koʻu hoʻomanaʻo. Wahine ʻōpio maikaʻi loa. Ua kūpono lākou, ʻoiaʻiʻo. ʻO Chuck's-e like me kona kapa ʻia ʻo Chuck-he mea hoʻopau kona makuakāne. ʻIke ʻoe, ke piʻi maoli nei kēlā. He hōʻike kupanaha ia. He kanaka ʻoluʻolu loa ʻo ia. ʻO ia ka valedictorian o kāna papa, a ua ʻoi aku ʻo ia ma mua o nā mea ʻē aʻe, e like me Fran, ʻike ʻoe? Akā, he aha kā lākou i huli ai, he aha kāu e ʻōlelo ai? Ua ulu ʻo ia ma Kings Highway ma Brooklyn, kokoke i kahi i ulu ai ʻo Bernie, ma ke ala. Ua hala au i ka hale i kēlā me kēia lā, no ka mea, holo kaʻa au i ka loko wai. He aha kāu e ʻōlelo ai e pili ana i ke kanaka nāna e paipai i nā keiki pōloli? ʻO ia kāna i hana ai.
AMY GOODMAN: E hele ana mākou -
Norman FINKELSTEIN: ʻIke ʻoe, he moʻokalaleo ʻo ia. A pono ʻoe e alo i kēlā ʻoiaʻiʻo. He moʻokalaleo ʻo ia. A makemake nā mea a pau e hoʻolei iā Trump. Pehea ka poʻe e like me Schumer?
AMY GOODMAN: ʻAe, e wāwahi mākou, a i ka wā e hoʻi mai ai, e kamaʻilio mākou e pili ana i ke kūlana āu e wehewehe nei ma Gaza. ʻO kāu puke hou, ʻO Gaza: He nīnau no kona make ʻana. Ke kamaʻilio nei mākou me ka mea kākau a me ka loea ʻo Norman Finkelstein. Ua paʻi ʻia ka puke. E noho pū me mākou.
AMY GOODMAN: ʻO kā mākou malihini i kēia lā, ka mea kākau a me ka ʻepekema ʻo Norman Finkelstein, ka mea kākau o ka puke hou ʻO Gaza: He nīnau no kona make ʻana, ka puke i paʻi ʻia e like me ka ʻIseraʻela e kū nei i kahi hoʻokolokolo kaua hewa o ka International Criminal Court no kāna hoʻouka kaua ʻana ma Gaza i ka makahiki 2014, kahi i pepehi ai ma mua o 2,100 Palestinians, me nā keiki 500. Makemake au e huli i ke Kuhina Nui Israeli Benjamin Netanyahu e kamaʻilio ana e pili ana i ka hoʻouka kaua kaua 2014 ma Gaza. Ua kamaʻilio ʻo ia iā Brian Williams o NBC Nūhou.
PRIME Kuhina Nui BENIAMINA NETANYAHU: ʻIke ʻoe, i kekahi manawa, ʻōlelo ʻoe, "He aha kāu koho? He aha kāu e hana ai?” He aha kāu e hana ai inā ʻo nā kūlanakauhale ʻo ʻAmelika, kahi āu e noho nei i kēia manawa, ʻo Brian, e hoʻoneʻe ʻia i nā haneli haneli? Maopopo iā ʻoe? ʻIke ʻoe i ka mea e ʻōlelo ai ʻoe? E ʻōlelo ʻoe i kou alakaʻi, "Pono ke kanaka e hana i ka mea a ke kanaka e hana ai." A e ʻōlelo ʻoe, "Pono ka ʻāina e hana i ka mea a ka ʻāina e hana ai." Pono mākou e pale iā mākou iho. Ke ho'āʻo nei mākou e hana me ka liʻiliʻi liʻiliʻi o ka ikaika a i ʻole ke ʻimi ʻana i nā pahuhopu kīwila-koa e like me kā mākou hiki. Akā e hana mākou e pale iā mākou iho. ʻAʻole hiki i ka ʻāina ke ola e like me kēia.
AMY GOODMAN: ʻO ia ke Kuhina Nui o ʻIseraʻela ʻo Benjamin Netanyahu e hōʻoiaʻiʻo ana i ka hoʻouka kaua kaua 2014 ma Gaza, ʻo ka International Criminal Court e kokoke ana e wehe i kahi hoʻokolokolo hoʻokolokolo kaua.
Norman FINKELSTEIN: ʻAe, ʻōlelo ʻo Benjamin Netanyahu i ʻelua mau mea: ʻO ka helu ʻekahi, ʻaʻohe koho o ka ʻIseraʻela, a, ʻelua, ua hoʻohana ʻo ia i ka liʻiliʻi o ka ikaika. ʻAe, e nānā koke kākou i kēlā mau kikoʻī ʻelua.
ʻO ka helu ʻekahi, ua ʻae nā mea a pau i ke kumu o ko lākou hele ʻana—i ka wā i hoʻomaka ai ke kaua, hoʻokahi pahuhopu o Hamas. ʻO ka pahuhopu e hoʻopau i ka hoʻopilikia ʻana iā Gaza, e hāpai i ka hoʻopilikia ʻana. Ma lalo o ke kānāwai o ka honua, he kānāwai ʻole kēlā hoʻopuni. ʻO ia ka hoʻopaʻi hui, he kānāwai ʻole ia ma lalo o ke kānāwai honua. Ua hoʻāhewa ʻia ka hoʻopuni ʻana e nā mea a pau o ke kaiāulu honua. He koho kona. ʻAʻole pono ʻo ia e hoʻohana i ka ikaika. Pono ʻo ia e hāpai i ka hoʻopuni. A laila, ʻaʻohe hakakā me Gaza.
ʻO ka helu ʻelua, ʻōlelo ʻo ia ua hoʻohana ʻo ia i ka ikaika liʻiliʻi. Nui nā ʻōlelo e pili ana i kēlā. Hiki iā ʻoe ke hoʻoholo no ʻoe iho inā ʻo ia ka ikaika liʻiliʻi i ka wā i pae ai ka ʻIseraʻela i nā hale 18,000. Ehia na hale o ka Iseraela i paiia? ʻekahi. Ua pepehi ʻo ʻIseraʻela i nā keiki 550. Ehia na keiki Iseraela i pepehiia? ʻekahi. ʻĀnō, e ʻōlelo paha ʻoe, "ʻAe, no ka mea he ʻōnaehana pale kīwila koʻikoʻi ka ʻIseraʻela, a i ʻole he Iron Dome ka ʻIseraʻela." ʻAʻole wau e hele i kēlā; ʻAʻohe oʻu manawa i kēia manawa. Akā aia kahi ho'āʻo maʻalahi. ʻO ka hoʻāʻo: He aha ka mea i ʻike ʻia e ka poʻe hakakā ʻIseraʻela? He aha kā lākou i ʻōlelo ai?
Loaʻa iā mākou nā palapala, kahi hōʻike i hoʻopuka ʻia e ka hui ex-service-ex-combatt o ʻIseraʻela, Breaking the Silence. Aia ma kahi o 110 ʻaoʻao. ʻAʻole hiki iā ʻoe ke manaʻoʻiʻo. ʻIke ʻoe, e haʻi aku wau iā ʻoe, e Amy, ke hoʻomanaʻo nei au i koʻu heluhelu ʻana. Aia au ma Tureke. E hele ana au i ka ʻahaʻaina puke. Noho au ma hope o kahi kaʻa a heluhelu i kēia mau wehewehe ʻana o ka hana a nā koa. E kolo ana ko'u ili. Ua like au me ka haalulu. Koa ma hope o kekahi koa. I kēia manawa, e hoʻomanaʻo, makemake ʻoe e ʻōlelo he partisan lākou, nā koa? E heluhelu i na hoike. ʻAʻole lākou mihi. ʻAʻole lākou mihi. Hōʻike wale lākou i ka mea i hana ʻia. ʻAʻohe mihi. ʻAʻole kēia he poʻe hema, kākoʻo o BDS. He aha kā lākou e wehewehe ai? Wahi a kekahi ma hope o kekahi, "Ua pana kā mākou kauoha e pepehi i nā mea e neʻe a me nā mea ʻole." Ua ʻōlelo kekahi ma hope o kekahi, "Ua hoʻohana ʻo ʻIseraʻela i ka nui o ke ahi ahi ma Gaza. Ua hoʻohana ʻo ʻIseraʻela i ka nui o ke ahi ma Gaza.
AMY GOODMAN: ʻO kēia nā koa o ka ʻIseraʻela.
Norman FINKELSTEIN: ʻO nā koa, ke wehewehe nei lākou. Wahi a kekahi ma hope o kekahi, "Ua puhi mākou, luku, ʻōnaehana, hoʻopau i kēlā me kēia hale i ʻike ʻia." He aha ke ʻano o ia mea, "nā hale a pau i ʻike ʻia"? He kanahiku pakeneka o ka poe ma Gaza, he poe mahuka lakou. ʻO ia hoʻi, ua nalowale ko lākou ʻāina hānau. ʻO ka mea hope loa iā lākou, ʻo ka mea wale nō i loaʻa iā lākou, ʻo ka mea wale nō i loaʻa iā lākou, ʻo ko lākou home. Hele aku la ka Iseraela e like me ka poe luku me ko lakou D9 bulldozers.
AMY GOODMAN: E wehewehe i ka hoʻomaka ʻana.
Norman FINKELSTEIN: Pehea pehea?
AMY GOODMAN: Pehea ka hoʻomaka ʻana o ka pūʻali koa ʻIseraʻela 2014 ma Gaza.
Norman FINKELSTEIN: ʻAʻole, he mau mea paʻakikī kēia e wehewehe, no ka mea, pili ia i kahi āu e makemake ai e hoʻomaka. ʻO kahi aʻu e hoʻomaka ai, ma ka hopena o ʻApelila 2014, ua hoʻokumu ʻia kahi aupuni hui aupuni ma waena o ka Palestinian Authority a me Hamas. A ʻo ʻAmelika Hui Pū ʻIa a me ka EU, he mea kupanaha, ʻaʻole lākou i uhaki i nā kūkākūkā me kēia aupuni hui hou, ʻoiai ʻo ia "i loko o kahi hui hoʻoweliweli," a ua huhū ʻo Netanyahu.
AMY GOODMAN: Ke hoʻohana nei ʻoe i nā huaʻōlelo ea. Ke ʻōlelo nei ʻoe i ka mea a ka US i kapa ai he hui hoʻoweliweli.
Norman FINKELSTEIN: ʻAe, ʻo ka mea a ka ʻIseraʻela i kapa ai he hui hoʻoweliweli, no ka mea, i kēlā manawa, ua mākaukau ka US e kūkākūkā. A ua huhū ʻo Netanyahu, no ka mea, ʻaʻole mālama ʻia ʻo ia ma luna o Iran, i kēia manawa ke nānā ʻia nei ʻo ia ma luna o Hamas. A no laila, loaʻa iā ia kahi kumu - ʻaʻole wau makemake e hele i nā kikoʻī i kēia manawa - ʻike ʻo ia i kahi kumu e hoʻāʻo ai e hoʻonāukiuki iā Hamas i ka pane ʻana, i hiki ai iā ia ke ʻōlelo, "Ua ʻike ʻoe? He hui hoʻoweliweli lākou. A laila ua wili koke i lalo, e like me ka mea maʻamau. A laila komo ʻo ʻIseraʻela. Aia ka hoʻouka kaua.
A laila, Iulai 17th, ka lā i iho ai ka mokulele Malaysian ma luna o Ukraine, ua hoʻohana ʻo Netanyahu i kēlā manawa. Ua hoʻokuʻu ʻia ka mokulele i ke ahiahi, a hoʻomaka ʻo ia i ka hoʻouka kaua honua i ke ahiahi. E kāhāhā paha ʻoe i ka hoʻopili maikaʻi ʻana o ka ʻIseraʻela i ka pōʻai nūhou ʻAmelika. Hoʻomaka lākou i ka Operation Protective Edge ma 2008 me ke koho ʻana o Obama i ka pelekikena ma Nowemapa 4th. Hoʻomaka lākou i ka hoʻouka kaua ʻana o Gaza i ka wā-maikaʻi, [2008] ʻo Operation Cast Lead. Hoʻomaka lākou i ka Cast Lead ma Nowemapa 4th, 2008, i ka manawa i koho ʻia ai ʻo Obama i pelekikena. Hoʻomaka lākou i ka Operation Protective Edge, ka hoʻouka kaua honua, ma Iulai 17th. I ka wā i hāʻule ai ka mokulele ma luna o Ukraine, ua hoʻopaʻa ʻia nā kāmera āpau ma laila, a no laila hoʻomaka lākou i ka hoʻouka kaua.
A ʻo ka hoʻouka ʻana—ʻo ia, e ʻae mai iaʻu e haʻi aku iā ʻoe iā Peter Maurer, ʻo ia ke poʻo o ke Kōmike International o ke Keʻa ʻulaʻula. A pūʻiwa hoʻi au i kāna ʻōlelo. Ua ʻōlelo ʻo Peter Maurer - a ke ʻōlelo nei au iā ia, e hoʻopuka ana iā ia, akā kokoke i ka verbatim. Ua ʻōlelo ʻo ia, "I koʻu ola ʻoihana holoʻokoʻa, ʻaʻole au i ʻike i ka luku e like me kaʻu i ʻike ai ma Gaza." A ke hele mai nei mai ke poʻo o ke Kōmike International o ke Keʻa ʻulaʻula, ka mea i maʻa e ʻike, e ʻike ana i nā wahi kaua. ʻO ka mea i hana ʻia ma laila—he hewa i ke kanaka. Lawe ʻoe i kahi e like me Shejaiya. Shejaiya, he 90,000 ka nui o ka poʻe. Ua hāʻule ʻo ʻIseraʻela, manaʻoʻiʻo a ʻaʻole paha - he paʻakikī ke hoʻomaopopo - ʻoi aku ma mua o 100 hoʻokahi-toni pōma ma Shejaiya. ʻOi aku ma mua o 100 mau pōkā hoʻokahi-toni ma Shejaiya. Ua hana like ia Rafah. Ua hana like ia Khuzaʻa. Ua hana like ia i ka Gaza holoʻokoʻa. A laila, hele mai kēia kanaka, a ʻōlelo ʻo ia, "Ua hoʻohana mākou i ka mana hoʻokae. Ua hoʻohana mākou i ka ikaika kūpono. "
AMY GOODMAN: Ua makemake au e hele ma hope o ka hoʻouka kaua ʻana i kahi hale hoʻomalu UN ma 2014, ka pūʻali koa ʻIseraʻela e hoʻouka ana, ma Gaza, ka mea i pepehi i nā poʻe kīwila Palestinian he nui. Ka haiolelo no UNRWA, ʻO ka United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees, ua haki a uē i ka wā ninaninau ma Al Jazeera. ʻO Christopher Gunness kona inoa.
KRISTOPHER PUHI: Ua hōʻole ʻia nā kuleana o Palestinians, ʻo kā lākou poʻe keiki, a he mea weliweli.
AMY GOODMAN: Ke hoʻomaka nei ʻo Christopher Gunness e uē.
KRISTOPHER PUHI: [uē]
AMY GOODMAN: ʻO ia ʻo Christopher Gunness, i ka huli ʻana o ke kāmela mai ona aku, ʻo kona poʻo ma kona mau lima, ma hope o kāna tweet, "Aia kekahi manawa i ʻoi aku ka maikaʻi o nā waimaka ma mua o nā huaʻōlelo. ʻAʻole liʻiliʻi koʻu i hoʻohālikelike ʻia me ko Gaza. ʻO Norman Finkelstein, ʻelua mau minuke i koe.
Norman FINKELSTEIN: ʻIke wau iā Chris Gunness. He kanaka maikaʻi loa ʻo ia. Manaʻo wau ʻaʻole e nalowale kāna hana no ka mea ua ʻōlelo wau. Akā, he kanaka kūikawā ʻo ia. He kanaka ʻokoʻa ʻo ia. Ua hana ʻo ia ma Gaza. Ua mare ʻo ia i kahi kāne, ua male ʻo ia i kahi kāne Iudaio, a ua male ʻo ia i kahi kāne ʻIseraʻela. No laila hiki iā ʻoe ke noʻonoʻo ʻaʻole hauʻoli ʻo Hamas iā ia. Akā ʻo ia ke kumu nui, a he ʻoiaʻiʻo ka waimaka. ʻO ka mea e noho ana ma laila, ua hele aʻe ma laila, ʻeha ko lākou naʻau i ka mea i hana ʻia i ko Gaza.
AMY GOODMAN: He aha kou manaʻo e pono ai ke hana i kēia manawa?
Norman FINKELSTEIN: ʻAe, maopopo ka mea mua e hana ʻia ʻo ka hoʻopuni ʻana e hoʻokiʻekiʻe ʻia. A ʻo ka UN Human Rights Council, ʻoiai ʻo kāna hōʻike ʻana he ʻano keʻokeʻo a me ka hoʻohilahila piha—ʻo Mary McGowan Davis ke kumu o ia mea—ua ʻōlelo lākou, e like me ke kānāwai, pono e hoʻoneʻe koke ʻia ka hoʻopuni ʻana me ke ʻano ʻole. ʻO ia ke kānāwai: pono e hoʻokiʻekiʻe koke ʻia me ke ʻano ʻole. ʻO ia ka mea mua e hana ʻia. Pono e hoʻopau ka hoʻopuni. Pono e pau ka hana. A ʻo ka poʻe o Gaza, ma hope o 50 mau makahiki haʻalele i ke akua, pono e loaʻa iā lākou ke kuleana e hanu a ola i kahi ola maʻamau.
AMY GOODMAN: A pehea kou manaʻo e hiki mai ana?
Norman FINKELSTEIN: He manawa paʻakikī loa ia i kēia manawa, akā aia mau nā mea hiki. I koʻu manaʻo, aia ka hiki i Gaza ke kū'ē kū'ē kū'ēʻole, e ho'āʻo ana e hoʻoikaika i ka weheʻana i nā mākaʻi a me ke Komohana Komohana. ʻAʻohe oʻu manawa e hele ai i kēia manawa. Manaʻo wau he hoʻolālā nui o ka hahau ʻana i nā koa ʻIseraʻela - nā wahine a me nā kaikamahine - i nā wāwae o Ahed Tamimi, kēlā ʻano hoʻolālā -
AMY GOODMAN: ʻO wai ke alo i nā makahiki he nui i loko o ka hale paʻahao i kēia manawa.
Norman FINKELSTEIN: ʻAe. ʻAʻohe mea e ʻōlelo ʻaʻohe pilikia.
AMY GOODMAN: He ʻumi kekona.
Norman FINKELSTEIN: Akā, e like me nā keiki o Gaza, i ka wā i hoʻolei aku ai lākou i nā pōhaku i ka ʻIseraʻela i ka makahiki 1988 i ka wā o ka First Intifada, ua hoʻololi i ka manaʻo o ka lehulehu, manaʻo wau i ka poʻe - nā wahine o Gaza, inā he "Me Too" kā lākou hoʻolaha. he koa ʻIseraʻela i kēia lā"—Manaʻo wau e hiki ke lanakila i ka manaʻo o ka lehulehu.
AMY GOODMAN: Ua kamaʻilio ʻoe e pili ana i kahi hoʻouka kaua ʻole—
Norman FINKELSTEIN: ʻAe, ʻaʻole wau i manaʻo -
AMY GOODMAN: —ma na wahi a pau i nohoia.
Norman FINKELSTEIN: E nānā, aia wau i ka moʻomeheu o Gandhi. A maopopo loa ʻo Gandhi: Ke kū nei ʻoe i nā pilikia nui e kūʻē iā ʻoe a hoʻohana ʻoe i nā ʻano ikaika e like me ka ʻokiʻoki, paʻi ʻana, kīkī-
AMY GOODMAN: Ekolu mau kekona.
Norman FINKELSTEIN: —Ua ʻōlelo ʻo Gandhi ʻaʻole ia he hana ʻino. A ke ʻae nei au iā ia.
AMY GOODMAN: ʻO Norman Finkelstein, ka mea kākau o ʻO Gaza: He nīnau no kona make ʻana.
AMY GOODMAN: Makemake wau e nīnau iā ʻoe e pili ana iā Benjamin Netanyahu a me nā hoʻokolokolo palaho āna e kū nei. ʻOiaʻiʻo, ua kamaʻilio hou ʻo Benjamin Netanyahu e pili ana i kāna pilina pili loa me nā Kushners, e moe ana i loko o ka lumi moe o Jared Kushner i kona kipa ʻana i ʻAmelika Hui Pū ʻIa, i kona wā liʻiliʻi. ʻO ke Kuhina Nui ʻIseraʻela ʻo Benjamin Netanyahu e kū nei i kahi hoʻopaʻapaʻa politika kūloko ma hope o ka hoʻolaha ʻana o kahi keʻena TV Israeli i kahi leo leo huna o kāna keiki mai waho mai o kahi hui kala i 2015. Ma ka hoʻopaʻa ʻana, hiki ke lohe ʻia ʻo Yair Netanyahu e kamaʻilio e pili ana i nā wahine hoʻokamakama, e koi ana i ke kālā mai ke keiki a. he moku kinoea Israeli. Ua ʻōlelo ʻo Yair ua kōkua kona makuakāne, ʻo ke Kuhina Nui ʻo Netanyahu, i ke kākoʻo ʻana i kahi ʻaelike $20 biliona e pōmaikaʻi ai ka mea ʻoihana, me ka ʻōlelo ʻana, "Ua hoʻonohonoho koʻu makuakāne i $20 biliona no kou makuakāne, a ke ʻōhumu nei ʻoe me aʻu ma kahi o 400 sekela," i kēia hiki mai. i ka manawa e kū nei ke Kuhina Nui ʻo Netanyahu i nā noiʻi ʻino he nui.
I Kepakemapa, ua kū pū ʻo Yair Netanyahu i ka hoʻopaʻapaʻa i ka wā i hoʻopuka ai i kahi kiʻi anti-Semitic ma Facebook. Ua hoʻomaikaʻi aku nā poʻe keʻokeʻo keʻokeʻo, me ke alakaʻi mua ʻo Klan ʻo David Duke, iā Yair Netanyahu, e kau ana i kahi kiʻi e hōʻike ana i ka mea hoʻopukapuka billionaire ʻo George Soros ma ke poʻo o kahi kaulahao meaʻai, e lele ana i ka honua i mua o ka mea kolo a me ke Kuhina Nui ʻo Ehud Barak, he mea hoʻohewa pinepine iā ia. ʻO kona makuakāne, ʻo Benjamin Netanyahu, a laila hoʻomaikaʻi ʻia e David Duke. He moʻolelo kupanaha, i kākau ʻia e pili ana i loko Slate a me na wahi e.
Hiki iā ʻoe ke kamaʻilio e pili ana i nā mea e hana nei i kēia manawa? A ʻo kēia - ke hoʻopilikia nei nā hoʻokolokolo palaho iā Netanyahu? A pehea kāna keiki?
Norman FINKELSTEIN: ʻAe, e nānā pōkole wau i ka helu hope a laila e hele i ka puʻuwai - i koʻu manaʻo, ka puʻuwai o nā nīnau āu e nīnau nei. ʻO ka pilina ma waena o kāna keiki a me Netanyahu, ʻo Yair a me kona makuakāne, ʻo Benjamin Netanyahu, ua like loa me Jared a me Donald Trump. He poʻe pōmaikaʻi kēia, ʻinoʻino a maikaʻi ʻole.
Akā ʻo ka nīnau āu i nīnau ai e pili ana i ka palaho, ma ka laulā, he nīnau hoihoi. ʻAʻole ʻoe i like me aʻu, akā hiki iā ʻoe ke hoʻi i hope no ka hoʻomanaʻo ʻana i ko mākou wā e ulu ana, he ʻuʻuku loa ʻo ʻIseraʻela, he maʻalahi, a he wahi ʻoiaʻiʻo. A ʻo ia ke kiʻi o ka ʻIseraʻela i paʻa i loko o ka manaʻo o nā Iudaio ʻAmelika he nui, e ʻōlelo, ma luna o nā makahiki o—ma luna o nā makahiki 50. A no laila, i kēlā manawa, e ʻōlelo mākou e lawe ʻoe, i ka makahiki 1970, ʻo Yitzhak Rabin, ʻo ia ka kuhina nui. Pono ʻo ia e haʻalele i ke keʻena. Ua kipaku ʻia ʻo ia ma waho o ke keʻena no ka mea ua wehe kāna wahine i kahi waihona kālā—hoʻokahi waihona waihona—ma ʻAmelika Hui Pū ʻIa. A ʻoiai ʻaʻohe kālā i waiho ʻia i loko, inā pololei koʻu hoʻomanaʻo. Akā i kēia mau lā, hoʻokahi wale nō hoʻopaʻapaʻa ma hope o kekahi hōʻino ma hope o kekahi hōʻino ma hope o kahi hōʻino ʻē aʻe. A ʻo ka mea kupaianaha, ʻaʻole ia e pili i ke kū ʻana o Benjamin Netanyahu. Hiki iā ʻoe ke loaʻa i ka holomua o nā scandals, akā ua noho ʻo ia ma ke keʻena no kahi manawa lōʻihi loa.
A laila ʻo ka nīnau: No ke aha? A manaʻo wau ʻo ka pane: No ka mea, inā makemake kekahi a ʻaʻole paha, ʻo Benjamin Netanyahu ka helehelena maoli o ka ʻIseraʻela. He mea ʻino ʻole ʻo ia, leo nui, racist, supremacist Iudaio. A ʻo ia ka heluna kanaka a pau i kēia manawa. I kēia manawa, ke ʻōlelo nei au aia i loko o lākou DNA. ʻAʻole wau e ʻōlelo nei he genetic. Akā, he mea minamina loa ka mokuʻāina o ka ʻIseraʻela i degenerated i loko. A ʻo kēlā—
AMY GOODMAN: ʻO koʻu manaʻo, ʻaʻole maopopo ka lehulehu holoʻokoʻa. He nui kāu mau mea hoʻohewa. He neʻe maluhia kāu ma laila.
Norman FINKELSTEIN: ʻAe, ʻaʻole, e ʻōlelo wau - ʻike ʻoe, e Amy, makemake wau ʻo ia ka hihia. Manaʻo wau ʻo ia ka hihia. Akā inā nīnau ʻoe i ka poʻe hoʻohewa iā lākou iho, inā ʻoe e nīnau iā Gideon Levy, e nīnau ʻoe iā Amira Hass, nīnau ʻoe i kahi—
AMY GOODMAN: Na wai e kākau no Haaretz.
Norman FINKELSTEIN: Pono—e ninau aku oe ia B'Tselem, ninau mai oe—
AMY GOODMAN: ʻO ka hui pono kanaka.
Norman FINKELSTEIN: ʻĀkau—Breaking the Silence, nā pūʻali koa, e haʻi aku lākou iā ʻoe ʻaʻole lākou e pani i kekahi. E haʻi lākou iā ʻoe ʻaʻole lākou e hōʻike hou. Aia kekahi manawa kahi i hōʻike ai lākou i kahi mea liʻiliʻi i ke ola o ka ʻIseraʻela. Akā ʻaʻole ia he ʻoiaʻiʻo. A ʻo ka ʻoiaʻiʻo ʻo Benjamin Netanyahu e hoʻomau nei, ʻoiai ke ʻano o ka hoʻopaʻapaʻa ʻana, he hōʻike ia o ka nui o ka hoʻohaʻahaʻa ʻana o ke kaiāulu.
No laila, ʻo Gideon Levy, ke manaʻo nei au, ʻo ke kolamu, ua hana ʻo ia i kahi ʻōlelo i kekahi lā aʻu i ʻike ai he hoihoi loa. Ua ʻōlelo ʻo ia, ʻo ka ʻIseraʻela, ʻike lākou i ke kanaka ma ka noho huila—ua nalowale kona mau wāwae ʻelua—ma Gaza. Paʻa ʻo ia i ka hae. Ua pana lākou iā ia ma waena o nā maka, he mea pana. ʻIke nā kānaka a pau ma ka wikiō. Ua ʻōlelo ʻo ia, ʻaʻole mālama ka ʻIseraʻela. A laila pepehi ʻia kekahi keiki. I kēia hihia, ʻo ka hihia ʻelua, make ke keiki. Ua make ke kolu. ʻAʻohe mea mālama. Hoʻokahi mea a lākou e manaʻo ai: ʻO ke kaikamahine ʻōpio, ʻo Ahed Tamimi, ua hahau i kahi koa ʻIseraʻela. ʻO ia ke kumu o ka hysteria. Pehea e ʻaʻa ai kahi Palestinian e hahau i kekahi koa ʻIseraʻela? Akā ʻo nā hana ʻino i kēlā me kēia lā -
AMY GOODMAN: A ʻo kēia hou, ʻo ka paʻi ʻana o ke koa, ma hope o kāna hoahānau 14 makahiki, i kī ʻia ma kahi kokoke loa i ka maka, i ka puka ʻana mai o kahi coma i kēia manawa, e nā koa ʻIseraʻela.
Norman FINKELSTEIN: A e noho ana ma kahi ʻoihana, e noho ana ma ka ʻaihue, ka luku ʻia ʻana o kou home, kou mau kaiāulu, kēia mau koa e hoʻopilikia mau iā ʻoe, hectoring iā ʻoe, browbeating iā ʻoe, hoʻoweliweli iā ʻoe. Akā ʻo ka nīnau wale nō no ka ʻIseraʻela: Pehea lā e ʻaʻa ai kēia kaikamahine e paʻi i kahi koa ma ka maka? He mea ole nae ka pepehi ana.
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