Ellen Brown: ʻO kaʻu malihini i kēia lā ʻo Kauka Michael Hudson, ʻo ia kā mākou hauʻoli i ka noho ʻana ma kā mākou Public Banking Institute Advisory Board, a ʻo ia hoʻi ka mea pono e aʻo aku i ka Federal Reserve a me ka Waihona, akā ʻo BlackRock me he mea lā ua loaʻa ka hana. Ua kapa ʻia ʻo Paul Craig Roberts, ʻo ia ʻo ia ʻo ke Kakauolelo Kuhina Waiwai ma lalo o Reagan, i kapa ʻia ʻo Michael Hudson ka mea hoʻokele waiwai nui loa ma ka honua. He kanaka kālailai kālā ʻo Wall Street, Polofesa o Economics ma ke Kulanui o Missouri, Kansas City, a me ka mea kākau o ʻoi aku ʻelua mau puke, ʻo ia hoʻi. Pepehi ana i ka Hookipa a ua kapa ʻia kekahi… a kala mai i ka lakou aie, pili pono i keia la. No laila maikaʻi ke kamaʻilio pū me ʻoe, e Michael.
Michael Hudson: Maikaʻi ke hoʻi mai, Ellen.
Ellen Brown: Mahalo. No laila, ua kākau hou ʻoe ma The Washington Post ʻO ka maʻi maʻi ʻo Corona e lawelawe nei ma ke ʻano he hoʻomaʻamaʻa hoʻonui noʻonoʻo, e hana ana i nā hopena hiki ʻole ke noʻonoʻo ʻia. ʻO nā aie hiki ʻole ke uku ʻia, ʻaʻole ia. ʻO ka Iubile aie paha ke ala maikaʻi loa. No laila, no ka mea i lohe ʻole i kāu wehewehe ʻana i kēia, hiki iā ʻoe ke wehewehe i ke ʻano o ka Iubile aie, a no ke aha ʻo ia ke ala maikaʻi loa, a he aha ka pilikia maoli ʻo ia ke ala maikaʻi loa?
Michael Hudson: ʻAe, aia ka pilikia aie e piʻi mai ana mai ke Kaua Honua II. ʻO kēlā me kēia hoʻokele waiwai, kēlā me kēia pōʻai ʻoihana mai 1945 ua hoʻomaka mai kahi kiʻekiʻe o ka aie. Ua manaʻo ka hapa nui o ka poʻe e waiwai ana lākou mai ka hōʻaiʻē no ka mea ʻo ka hapa nui o ka hōʻaiʻē panakō - 80 pakeneka o nā hōʻaiʻē panakō - he moraki. Kūʻē lākou i ka waiwai paʻa. Ua ʻimi nā panakō e hoʻonui i ka mākeke, a ua hōʻaiʻē hou aku i ka waiwai paʻa. I nā makahiki 1960 i koʻu kūʻai mua ʻana i hale, pono e loaʻa iā ʻoe ka lawelawe ʻaiʻē ʻaʻole i ʻoi aku ma mua o 25 pakeneka o kāu loaʻa. Pono ʻoe e waiho iho i 30 pakeneka o ke kumukūʻai o ka hale. No laila, ʻoi aku ka waiwai o ka hale i nā mea a ka panakō e hāʻawi ai.
Akā i ka manawa i hāʻule ai ka hoʻokele waiwai i ka makahiki 2008 - a i ʻole, i ka manawa i hāʻule ai ka ʻōnaehana kālā - ke hana nei nā panakō i nā hōʻaiʻē me ka uku ʻole. ʻAʻole pono ʻoe i 30 pakeneka. ʻO ke koi e uku ʻia ka moraki - 25 pakeneka o kāu loaʻa kālā - hele i waho o ka pukaaniani. Hāʻawi nā panakō i kekahi kālā, me ka nānā ʻole i kāu mea e hana nei. A ʻaʻole pono e uku ʻia ka ukupanee. Ma kahi o ka loaʻa ʻana o kahi moraki hoʻokaʻawale iā ʻoe iho kahi āu e loaʻa ai ka hale ma hope o 30 mau makahiki o ka uku ʻana i ka panakō, e uku ʻoe i ka panakō ma hope o 30 mau makahiki a ʻaʻole ʻoe e loaʻa hou aku, no ka mea ʻaʻole ʻoe e uku. kekahi amortization.
No laila, ua hōʻaiʻē nā panakō i ke kālā he nui no ka hale, e hoʻonui ana i ke kumukūʻai kiʻekiʻe, a ma hope o ka uku ʻana i nā kumukūʻai moraki - a i ʻole, inā ʻaʻole hiki iā ʻoe ke kūʻai i hale, inā he hoʻolimalima ʻoe - ma hope o ka uku ʻana i ka lawelawe aie. a ʻo ka ʻaiʻē kāleka hōʻaiʻē, ka ʻaiʻē ʻē aʻe, a ma hope o ka uku ʻana i nā kumukūʻai ʻinikua a me nā ʻauhau, ʻaʻole nui ʻoe i koe no nā waiwai kumu a me nā lawelawe āu e hana ai, koe wale nō ka liʻiliʻi o ka meaʻai, nā lole a me ka lawe ʻana.
No laila ua hiki i kahi manawa i ka wā i puka mai ai ka maʻi mai ke ʻano o ka ulu ʻana o ka ʻoihana. No ka 95 pakeneka o ka heluna kanaka, ua pau ka ulu ʻana o ka ʻoihana i ka makahiki 2008, i ka wā i hoʻopakele ai ʻo Obama i nā panakō a waiho i nā ʻaiʻē maikaʻi ʻole a pau. Mai ka makahiki 2008, ʻo ka ulu ʻana a pau o GDP - ka piʻi ʻana o ka loaʻa kālā o ka ʻāina - ua loaʻa i ka ʻelima pakeneka o ka heluna kanaka. ʻO ia hoʻi, no ka 95 pakeneka o ka heluna kanaka ʻaʻole i ulu iki ka ʻoihana. Ke emi nei.
ʻO ka nīnau, pehea ʻoe e ulu ai inā haʻalele ʻoe i nā lawelawe ʻaiʻē a pau, inā ʻoe e waiho i nā hale pyramided a pau? He kiʻekiʻe ke kumu kūʻai o nā bona a me nā lāʻau ʻaʻole e loaʻa hou kahi kālā no ka hoʻomaha. Ua hiki i ka hoʻokele waiwai i kahi pae i ka hoʻomaka ʻana o kēia makahiki e koho ʻo ia e uku i nā aie a pau, e hoʻomau i ka uku ʻana i ka ulu ʻana o ka loaʻa kālā i ka ʻelima pakeneka ʻo ia ka mea ʻaiʻē a me ka papa kālā, a i ʻole e kākau i nā aie a waiho. ulu hou ka waiwai.
ʻO ka pilikia kumu, ʻo wai ka mea e holo ai ka ʻoihana? E holo ʻia ana no nā panakō a me Wall Street, a i ʻole no ke Alanui Nui? ʻAe, ua ʻōlelo ʻoe e lilo wau i kākāʻōlelo no ka Federal Reserve a me ka Waihona Waihona. ʻAʻole lākou e hoʻolohe i kekahi mea aʻu e ʻōlelo ai, no ka mea, holo lākou i ka ʻoihana no Wall Street. E like me kāu i ʻike ai, ua hana ka Federal Reserve i kahi maʻi o ka quantitative easing mai ka makahiki 2008. ʻO ka mua, ʻehā a me ka hapa trillion kālā no ka bailout Obama, a laila ʻelua trillion ʻē aʻe i hoʻonohonoho ʻia e piʻi i ka 10 trillion, ʻo ia wale nō. e kūʻai i nā lāʻau a me nā mea paʻa a hoʻokuʻu i nā kumukūʻai o nā waiwai i loaʻa i ka ʻelima pakeneka.
No laila ke hana nei ka Federal Reserve e kūʻē i ke alanui Main. Ke hana wale nei no kona ʻāpana koho, ʻo ia hoʻi nā panakō kalepa, ma mua o ka hoʻāʻo ʻana e noʻonoʻo pehea e hiki ai i ka hoʻokele waiwai ke hoʻokuʻu iā ia iho mai kēia ʻaiʻē ma luna? ʻAʻole hiki iā ia ke hoʻopau i ka ʻaiʻē no ka mea ʻaʻohe kanaka e loaʻa i ke kālā kūpono e amortize, ʻo ia hoʻi ka uku ʻana i ke kumupaʻa. ʻO nā mea a pau e hiki iā lākou ke hana, ʻo ia ke hoʻāʻo e uku i nā uku ukupanee o kēia manawa. No laila ua pena ka hoʻokele waiwai iā ia iho i kahi kihi. A ʻo ia ka pilikia aʻu e kamaʻilio nei Pepehi ana i ka Hookipa a me nā puke a pau aʻu e kākau ai a me nā nīnauele a pau aʻu e hana nei.
Ellen Brown: Ua ʻae loa wau i nā mea a pau. Ua ʻōlelo ʻoe i kēia ʻehā a me ka hapa trillion, i hoʻonui ʻia. Ua noʻonoʻo wau, pehea lākou e pakele ai? ʻO koʻu manaʻo, ʻaʻole ia he panakō. No ke aha lākou i helu ai he ʻumi a hoʻokahi? Hiki iā lākou ke hana i 100 a hoʻokahi. Hiki i ka Federal Reserve ke hoʻopuka i nā manawa a pau e makemake ai. Manaʻo wau ʻo kekahi o kaʻu mau nīnau maʻamau e pili ana i ka Federal Reserve ʻo ka ʻōlelo ʻana o ka poʻe hiki iā lākou ke hele i ka banekorupa, ʻaʻole kaulike kā lākou waihona, a me nā mea āpau. Loaʻa iā lākou kahi pale kaulike e helu?
Michael Hudson: ʻOiaʻiʻo, loaʻa iā lākou kahi pale kaulike. ʻO ka nīnau, he aha is he helu kaulike? Loaʻa iā ʻoe nā waiwai ma ka ʻaoʻao hema a me nā aie a me ka waiwai ʻupena ma ka ʻaoʻao ʻākau. Hiki i ka Federal Reserve ke hana i kahi hōʻaiʻē / waiho kālā, e like me ka hana a ka panakō. Inā hele ʻoe i kahi panakō a makemake ʻoe e hōʻaiʻē kālā, e hana ka panakō i kahi moʻokāki nou ma ke kamepiula wale nō. “Eia $100,000 a mākou e waiho nei i kāu moʻokāki. E hele e kūʻai i hale a i ʻole e hana i kekahi mea." Ma ke kūʻaiʻana, he waiwai ko ka panakō, he koi iāʻoe no ka ukuʻana me ka ukupanee. ʻAe, hiki i ka Federal Reserve ke hana i kekahi mea ma kāna waihona kaulike. Hiki iā ia ke haʻi i nā hui a me nā panakō, "ʻO mākou ke Statue of Liberty: E hāʻawi mai iā mākou i kāu mau ʻaiʻē ʻilihune, hāʻawi mai i kāu mau ʻaiʻē maikaʻi ʻole, hāʻawi mai i nā ʻōpala āpau, a e hana mākou i kahi waihona - 100 keneta ma ke kālā no ia - a e lawe mākou i kāu mau hōʻaiʻē maikaʻi ʻole. A ʻike mākou ʻaʻole hiki ke uku ʻia nā hōʻaiʻē, no ka mea ʻaʻole hiki i ka ʻoihana ke uku.
Ma ka ʻaoʻao waiwai o ka waihona koena, e ʻōlelo mākou he kuleana ko mākou iā ʻoe. A laila e hāʻawi mākou iā ʻoe i ke kālā no ia mea. A e hoʻāʻo mākou e hōʻoia ʻaʻole pono mākou e lilo i ke kālā ma kēia mau waiwai a mākou i ʻae ai iā ʻoe e hoʻohiki iā mākou, no ka mea, e hoʻomau mākou i ke kūʻai ʻana i ka mākeke i ʻoi aku ka kiʻekiʻe. Hiki iā mākou ke hana i kēlā mea ʻaʻole wale ma ke kūʻai ʻana i nā kumulāʻau, nā paʻa junk a me nā moraki i hoʻopaʻa ʻia, akā hiki iā mākou ke hana i nā hoʻopunipuni kālā.
Ua ʻōlelo ʻoe iā Paul Craig Roberts ma mua, ʻo ia ka Undersecretary mua o ka Waihona no nā ʻĀina Nui. Ua haʻi ʻo ia iaʻu ʻo ka mea a ka Federal Reserve e hana nei i kēia mau lā ke hoʻopunipuni nei i ka mākeke mua. E hele ana i Wall Street a e ʻōlelo ʻia, "Hoʻohiki mākou e kūʻai i ka Dow Jones awelika ma 50 mau kiʻekiʻe ma mua o kēia lā, i kēia pule aʻe." ʻAe, i ka manawa e hoʻohiki ai e kūʻai, e ʻike ka poʻe speculators a hoʻomaka lākou e kau i nā kumukūʻai i ka mea a ka Federal Reserve i hoʻohiki ai e uku no nā kumukūʻai. Hiki iā ia ke hoʻomau i ka hana ʻana, kēlā me kēia pule a me kēlā me kēia mahina ma kēlā me kēia mahina a hiki iā ia ke hoʻomau i ka hoʻoulu ʻana i ka mākeke kūʻai. ʻO ia ke ala e hoʻoikaika ai i ka mākeke paʻa ma ka hoʻohiki ʻana e kūʻai i nā mea paʻa ma ke kumu kūʻai kiʻekiʻe. ʻO ia ke ʻano o ka loaʻa ʻana o kahi palapala hoʻopaʻa e hoʻemi ʻia ka loaʻa kālā. Hiki iā lākou ke hoʻomau i ka hoʻonui ʻana i ka ʻoihana me ka hōʻaiʻē, e like me kahi papahana Ponzi.
No laila, ʻo ka Federal Reserve ka papahana Ponzi mana e mālama nei i ka hoʻokele waiwai kālā ma ʻAmelika Hui Pū ʻIa. ʻOiaʻiʻo, i kekahi manawa pono e hoʻopau kēlā me kēia hoʻolālā ulu hoʻonui, no ka mea inā ʻaʻole e loaʻa iā ʻoe ka nui o ka ʻaiʻē. No laila, i kekahi manawa, e noho ka Fed me nā ʻoihana nui o Wall Street a me nā piliona piliona nui ma hope o kēia mau ʻoihana, a ʻōlelo lākou, "ʻAe, ʻike ʻoe, ua pau ka pāʻani. Pono mākou e hoʻokuʻu. E ʻōlelo ana kēia mau mea hoʻopukapuka, "ʻAe, e lawe mākou i ke kālā a holo." ʻO ia ka mea a nā mea a pau e hana nei. “E kūʻai ana mākou i ke gula. E kūʻai ana mākou i ka waiwai ma New Zealand, no laila, loaʻa iā mākou kahi e holo ai i ka wā e hāʻule ai ka ʻoihana. E hoʻokuʻu wale lākou i nā mea a pau, kūʻai aku a loaʻa ka pōʻino me nā kālā penikala a me nā mea mālama liʻiliʻi ʻaʻole i komo i ka pāʻani, e nalowale ana i nā mea a lākou.
Ellen Brown: Ke hele mau nei kēia. ʻO kaʻu nīnau e pili ana i ka waihona palekana o ka Fed, akā, pono anei i kā lākou pale kaulike ke kaulike?
ʻO Michael Hudson: ʻO kēlā me kēia pale pale kaulike, no ka mea, he kaulike kēlā me kēia hana. Inā he physicist ʻoe e kamaʻilio ana e pili ana i ke kanaka e hāʻule palahalaha ana ma kona alo, ʻo ia ke kaulike. Hiki ke nānā ʻia kekahi mea ma ke ʻano he pālua o nā ʻaoʻao ʻelua o ke kālā hoʻokahi. ʻO nā ʻaoʻao ʻelua he waiwai a me nā aie. A inā hoʻohiki wau e uku iā ʻoe i $100,000 no kahi kaʻa i haki ʻia, hiki iaʻu ke ʻōlelo he waiwai koʻu $100,000, a he $100,000 IOU kāu mai iaʻu. ʻO kēlā kaulike. ʻAʻole ia he kaulike maoli. No laila, pono e kaulike nā pepa kaulike, akā ʻaʻole pono lākou e ʻoiaʻiʻo.
Ellen Brown: ʻOiaʻiʻo. Manaʻo wau e pono mākou i ka loaʻa kālā maʻamau. A manaʻo ʻoe he Iubile aie mākou a pono mākou e kūkākūkā i kēlā mau mea. Akā, e ʻōlelo kākou ua uku ʻia lākou e ka Federal Reserve. ʻO ka hoʻopaʻapaʻa kūʻē i kēlā, e like me ke kālā helikopa maoli kahi āu e hāʻule ai i ke kālā ma luna o ka poʻe, ʻaʻole hiki iā ʻoe ke hoʻihoʻi mai a no laila e lilo ia i inflationary, akā ʻo ka mea a lākou e hana ai he mea hiki ke hoʻohuli. No laila inā kūʻai ʻoe i kahi waiwai, ke kau nei ʻoe i ke kālā i ka ʻoihana. A laila inā ʻoi aku ka wela o ka hoʻokele waiwai, e like me kā lākou e ʻōlelo ai, a laila hiki iā ʻoe ke kūʻai mau i ka waiwai a huki hou i ke kālā a hoʻemi i ka loaʻa kālā. A ʻaʻole hiki iā ʻoe ke hana me ka UBI a i ʻole ke kākau ʻana i nā aie a i ʻole kēlā mau mea like ʻole. Akā i koʻu manaʻo ʻaʻole hiki iā lākou ke hoʻohuli i kā lākou quantitative easing. He aha kāu e ʻōlelo ai i kēlā hoʻopaʻapaʻa?
Michael Hudson: Ua pololei ʻoe. E hoʻomanaʻo, lele wale ka helikopter Federal Reserve ma luna o Wall Street. ʻAʻole ia e lele ma luna o ka hoʻokele waiwai. ʻO kēia $ 4.5 trillion o ka quantitative easing, a me nā $ 2 trillion a pau i hana ʻia ma lalo o ka Trump e ka CARES Act - hiki i kēia mau mea ke lilo i loko o ka ʻoihana maoli. Ua lilo paha ia i ke kūkulu ʻana i nā ʻoihana. Ua lilo paha ia i ke kākoʻo ʻana i ka loaʻa kālā. Ua hiki ke lilo i kanaka a me ke Alanui Nui. Akā, ua hoʻohana wale ʻia ma Wall Street. ʻO ka manaʻo inā inā kūʻai ʻoe i kahi waiwai, hiki iā ʻoe ke loaʻa kālā mau. ʻO ia ka mea i hoʻokumu i ka papa waena mai ka makahiki 1945 a hiki i ka makahiki 2008. ʻO ke ala i hōʻiliʻili ʻia ai ka waiwai o ka waena waena ma ʻAmelika ma o ka piʻi ʻana o ke kumukūʻai hale. ʻO ia hoʻi, ʻo kēlā me kēia ʻohana i kūʻai i hale e pono ke uku hou aʻe i kāna loaʻa kālā, a me ke kumu kūʻai kiʻekiʻe aʻe e loaʻa ai kahi hale. ʻO ia ka mea i hoʻonui i ka poʻe i pōmaikaʻi i hiki ke kūʻai i ka waiwai i ka makahiki 1945: ka poʻe keʻokeʻo, ʻaʻole ʻeleʻele, ʻaʻole Hepanika; ʻulaʻula lākou. Akā inā he kanaka keʻokeʻo ʻoe me kahi ʻoihana, hiki iā ʻoe ke komo i ka papa hana ʻaiʻē waena, a hana maoli iā ʻoe - no kekahi manawa.
Ua manaʻo ka poʻe a pau e hiki iā lākou ke hoʻomau i ka hōʻaiʻē kālā i mea e loaʻa ai ka waiwai nui aʻe. E hoʻomanaʻo, i ka makahiki 2006, 07 a me 08, manaʻo ka poʻe inā ʻoe e hōʻaiʻē e like me kou hiki, poina i ka uku panee, hiki iā ʻoe ke uku i nā panakō mai ka piʻi ʻana o ke kumukūʻai o ka hale. Akā, ua kū ke kumu kūʻai hale a loaʻa iā ʻoe he ʻeiwa a 10 miliona mau ʻohana i nalowale i ko lākou mau home i ka paʻa ʻana o Obama. Ua ʻōlelo ʻo ia, “Hiki iaʻu ke kākoʻo i nā panakō a i ʻole hiki iaʻu ke kākoʻo i kaʻu poʻe koho. ʻO wai kaʻu e kākoʻo ai? ʻAe, ʻo nā panakō kaʻu mau mea kōkua a ke kākoʻo nei au i kaʻu papa hāʻawi. Ua kono ʻo ia iā lākou i ka Hale Keʻokeʻo a ʻōlelo ʻo ia, "ʻO wau ke kanaka e kū nei ma waena o ʻoukou a me ka poʻe ʻino me nā pitchforks." ka poʻe koho pāloka iaʻu, ka poʻe a Hillary i kapa ai he poʻe pōʻino. Ua ʻōlelo ʻo ia, "E mālama wau iā ʻoe," a ua hana ʻo ia. ʻAʻohe mea panakō i hele i ka hale paʻahao. Ua hāʻawi ʻo ia i nā waihona kālā he nui, ma ke kumukūʻai o nā ʻohana 10 miliona āna i hoʻohana ai. ʻO ke kumukūʻai ke kāpae nei i ka hana ʻoihana ma kēia ʻāina, ke kāpae nei i ka mākeke kūloko a lawe mai i ke kaumaha o Obama.
ʻO ia ke kulekele a Biden i kūpaʻa ai e hahai. Ua hoʻohiki ʻo ia iā ia iho i nā lā i hala iho nei, me ka ʻōlelo ʻana ʻo kona manaʻo e koho hou ʻia ʻaʻole ia e hoʻopiʻi iā Bernie Sanders a i ʻole ka hema a i ka papa hana, akā e hoʻāʻo e loaʻa i nā Repubalika e koho iā ia e hiki iā ia ke lanakila iā Trump. Ke kākoʻo nei ʻo ia i ke kūlana āna i koi ai ma ke ʻano he hope peresidena, kākoʻo i nā panakō, e hoʻāʻo ana e kākau i ka Social Security, e ʻoki i ka Social Security, e ʻoki i ka Medicare, e hōʻoki i ka hoʻolilo ʻana i ka lehulehu i mea e hāʻawi aku ai i ka papa hāʻawi ma Wall Street. No laila, e ʻike mākou iā Obama me kahi puʻupuʻu me ka papahana Biden-Republican e hiki mai ana i kēia ʻāina.
Ellen Brown: Ua kaumaha mākou, manaʻo wau. No laila, ʻo kāu manaʻo e loaʻa iā mākou ka Iubile aie. No laila hiki iā ʻoe ke wehewehe i ke ʻano a me kahi i hele mai ai ka huaʻōlelo a pehea ʻoe e hana ai?
Michael Hudson: ʻO ka huaʻōlelo Iubile mai ka Baibala mai. Ua ʻōlelo ʻia "yobel.” Ua kapa ʻia ʻo J i ka Y, e like me ka ʻōlelo Sepania a me ka Hebera. ʻO "Yobel" ka huaʻōlelo i hoʻohana ʻia ma ka Leviticus 25, e ʻōlelo ana i kēlā me kēia 50 makahiki e hoʻopau ʻoe i nā aie, a e hoʻokuʻu ʻoe i nā kauā ʻaiʻē i hoʻokauwā ʻia, a e hoʻihoʻi ʻoe i nā kauā a pau i hoʻohiki ʻia. i ka poe i aie mai ma ke ano he kumu nui i ka mea aie, a e hoihoi aku oe i ka aina i nalowale ai. ʻO ka yobel ʻo ia ka pū i puhi ʻia i ka Iubile e hōʻailona ai. Akā ʻo ka ʻōlelo a lākou i hoʻohana ai i ka yobel ia deror, he mea pili i ka huaolelo Babulonia andurarum. Ua hoʻohana ʻia ia mai ka Hammurabi a me ka ʻohana aliʻi o Babulona i ka makahiki 1750 BC. Ua hoʻomaka ʻo Hammurabi, e like me nā lālā ʻē aʻe o kāna ʻohana aliʻi, i kona noho aliʻi ʻana ma ka ʻōlelo ʻana i kahi anderarum, he papa maemae, he hoopau aie. Ua hana ʻo ia i kēia no ka mea ua ʻike ʻo ia ua ulu wikiwiki nā aie ma mua o ka hiki ke uku. Inā ʻaʻole ʻoe e kākau i nā ʻaiʻē, e hāʻule ana ka nui o ka heluna kanaka i ka ʻaiʻē i ka poʻe ʻaiʻē, me nā lālā waiwai o ka ʻoihana o ka hale aliʻi. Ua ʻike ʻo Hammurabi a me nā aliʻi ʻē aʻe o ka Hikina Hikina inā ʻae ʻoe i ka poʻe e hāʻule i ka ʻaiʻē i ka poʻe ʻaiʻē, pono lākou e hoʻolilo i kā lākou hana no ka poʻe ʻaiʻē ma ko lākou ʻāina, a ʻaʻole hiki iā lākou ke hana i ka hana ʻoihana corvée lehulehu. ʻAʻole hiki iā lākou ke kūkulu i nā hale aliʻi a me nā pā, a ʻaʻole hiki iā lākou ke uku i kā lākou mea kanu ma ke ʻano he ʻauhau, no ka mea, he ʻaiʻē lākou i ka poʻe ʻaiʻē.
ʻO ke kumu aʻu i ʻōlelo ai iā Hammurabi a koho iā ia ma kāna mau kānāwai. Loaʻa iā ʻoe ka laʻana mua o kahi paukū Act of God. Ua ʻōlelo kekahi o nā kānāwai o Hammurabi, inā he hana a ke Akua, inā hoʻopiha ka ʻino ʻo Adad i nā māla me ka wai a ʻaʻole hiki iā ʻoe ke ʻohi i ka hua, a inā he maloʻo, a laila ʻaʻole pono ʻoe e uku i nā hoʻolimalima a i ʻole. ʻaiʻē ʻauhau. "Ua hoʻokuʻu ʻia ʻoe i ka ʻaiʻē no ka mea ʻaʻole mākou makemake e hāʻule ʻoe i loko o ka paʻa i ka poʻe ʻaiʻē, no ka mea, e uku ʻoe iā lākou i ke koena a ʻaʻole mākou e loaʻa ma ka hale aliʻi." A ma nā ʻāpana ʻē aʻe o kāna mau kānāwai, ua ʻōlelo ʻo ia inā he maʻi ahulau, inā he maʻi, a inā he pio koa, a laila hoʻopau ʻia nā aie no ka mea ʻo ka manaʻo holoʻokoʻa ʻaʻole mākou e ʻae i ke kālā a nā kānaka e ʻaiʻē ai. ʻo ia ka nui o ka emi ʻana o ka hoʻokele waiwai a hāʻule nā kānaka i ka luhi. Ua ʻike maopopo ʻo ia inā hāʻule ka poʻe i loko o ka luhi, a laila e haʻalele lākou. He kaua mau. E hele paha lākou ma ka ʻaoʻao o kekahi, a i ʻole he kipi a hoʻokahuli lākou i ke aliʻi a hoʻopau i nā aie.
ʻO nā hoʻāʻo e hoʻokahuli i nā aliʻi ʻaʻole i hoʻopau i nā ʻaiʻē i hana ʻia ma ka wā kahiko o Helene a me Roma, mai ka makahiki ʻewalu BC a hiki i ka manawa o ke kenekulia mua BC ma Roma. He mau kipi aie mau. ʻO ka nīnau mai ka wā Roma mai, he aha kāu e hana ai inā nui loa nā aie e uku? ʻAe, ua kākau wale ʻia nā aie ma ka Hikina kokoke. ʻAʻole lākou i kākau ʻia ma Roma. Akā, ua loaʻa iā ʻoe kahi oligarchy liʻiliʻi e lawe ana i ka hoʻokele waiwai a hoʻokauwā a hōʻemi paha i ka hapa nui o ka heluna kanaka i ke kauā. ʻO ka hopena, ʻo ia ka makahiki ʻeleʻele.
No laila e hoʻi i kāu nīnau, pehea ʻoe e hoʻopau ai i nā aie? E nānā i nā mea e hana nei i kēia manawa me ka maʻi maʻi. He nui ka poʻe i nele i ka hana - he aha ka helu 20 miliona a i ʻole 40 miliona ʻaʻole hana? ʻAʻole hiki iā lākou ke uku i kā lākou hoʻolimalima a inā kūʻai lākou i hale, ʻaʻole hiki iā lākou ke uku i kā lākou moraki a me nā aie ʻē aʻe. No laila, ʻaʻole e uku ʻia nā hoʻolimalima a me nā moraki. E hoʻomaka ana i ka mahina ʻo Iulai, a ʻoi aku hoʻi i ʻAukake, aia ke kamaʻilio e pili ana i nā kipaku nui. ʻAʻole loaʻa kālā hou mai ke aupuni ka miliona o ʻAmelika i nalowale i ka hana. Pono lākou e hoʻohana i ke kālā hoʻoikaika wale no ke kūʻai ʻana i ka meaʻai ma ka papaʻaina a hoʻomaha. No laila, inā ʻaʻole ʻoe e kākau i nā aie no kēia poʻe, inā ʻaʻole ʻoe e hoʻopau i nā hoʻolimalima a ʻōlelo ʻoe, "ʻAe, ʻike mākou ʻaʻohe āu hana, ʻaʻole hiki iā ʻoe ke uku i ka hoʻolimalima."
Pēlā nō ia no nā ʻoihana, ʻoi aku hoʻi no nā hale ʻaina. Inā ʻaʻole ʻoe e hoʻokuʻu iā lākou mai nā uku hoʻolimalima, a laila e haʻalele lākou i ka ʻoihana a nele lākou i ka hana. A, e loaʻa ana iā ʻoe kahi pilikia home ʻole ma ʻAmelika Hui Pū ʻIa. Hiki iā ʻoe ke noʻonoʻo i nā hopena politika o ia mau mea a pau. ʻO ka mea hoʻokahi, i kēia manawa ʻaʻole e uku ʻia nā hoʻolimalima, ua ʻōlelo ka poʻe nona ka hale ... a me nā ʻoihana, nā hale ʻai a me nā hale kūʻai ... he ʻinikua kā lākou no ka hoʻopau ʻana i ka ʻoihana. Ke ʻōlelo nei nā hui ʻinikua e like me ke kekee e like me nā panakō o kēia ʻāina, "ʻAe, ʻaʻole hiki iā mākou ke uku iā ʻoe. He ʻoiaʻiʻo, ua loaʻa iā ʻoe ka ʻinikua, akā inā mākou e uku iā ʻoe, a laila, e haʻihaʻi mākou. No laila ʻaʻole mākou e uku iā ʻoe.
A ʻōlelo mai nā konohiki, "ʻAe, inā ʻaʻole e loaʻa ka uku hoʻolimalima, ʻaʻole hiki iā mākou ke uku i nā panakō a paʻa nā panakō." ʻO ia ke kumu e piʻi ai ka Wall Street. He pōmaikaʻi kēia no ka poʻe billionaires waiwai nui a me multibillionaires a me nā hui nui e like me Blackstone. Manaʻo lākou, “E ke keiki, e hele mai ana kekahi nalu o ka paʻa. Ke hana nei ʻo Trump i kahi hana kupanaha no mākou e like me kā Obama i hana ai. " Ma lalo o Obama, hāʻule ka ʻona home mai ka 57 pakeneka a i ka 51 pakeneka. A i kēia manawa, nui ka poʻe i hiki ʻole ke uku i kā lākou moraki, e nalowale ana ko lākou mau home. E kūʻai aku ana nā panakō i nā hale a me nā hale keʻena i loko o kahi ʻano kūʻai aku. ʻO Blackstone a me nā mea manaʻo ʻē aʻe e hiki ke loaʻa i ka waiwai a e hāʻule ana ka ʻona home ma ʻAmelika Hui Pū ʻIa e nā helu ʻelima. E huli ana mākou mai ka noho ʻana i ka ʻaha kanaka waena waena i kahi mea hoʻopau ka lāhui i ʻoi aku ka ʻilihune. ʻO ia ka hopena o ka hopena inā ʻaʻole kākau ʻia nā aie.
No laila, ʻo ka nīnau, he mea pono anei ka hoʻokau ʻana i ka hoʻokele waiwai i ka ʻilihune, i ka homelessness, e pani i nā ʻoihana, e hoʻopau i ka papa waena i mea e uku ai i nā aie i ka papa kālā i loaʻa nā loaʻa a me ka ulu ʻana mai 2008? A i ʻole makemake mākou e ʻōlelo, "ʻAe, ʻaʻole hiki ke uku ʻia nā aie." ʻO ia hoʻi, ʻaʻole e uku ʻia nā moraki, ʻaʻole e uku ʻia nā hōʻaiʻē, a e hoʻihoʻi ʻia kekahi o kēia mau trillioni kālā i hana ʻia e ka ʻoihana kālā a me ka ʻelima a me ka pākēneka? ʻAe, ʻōlelo ka One Percent, “ʻAʻole mākou e hoʻihoʻi i kahi peni. Ke koi nei mākou e hoʻokaʻa ʻia nā aie. He mea pono ia kakou ke hoilihune i ka hookele waiwai i mea e waiwai ai kakou, ina paha ma ka loaa ana mai o hookahi dala, ua makaukau kakou e lilo ka waiwai i ka piliona dala no ka mea, oia wale no ka makou e manao nei. ʻO ia kahi i hiki ai ka hoʻokele waiwai o ʻAmelika i kēia lā. ʻO ka hapa nui o nā kūkākūkā ma ka paʻi koʻikoʻi ʻaʻole i wehewehe i ka ʻoiaʻiʻo inā ʻaʻole kākau ka hoʻokele waiwai i nā aie, aia mākou i ke kaumaha mau e mau a hiki i ka hōʻaiʻē. ua kakau hope loa.
Ellen Brown: No laila inā ʻoe e kākau iā lākou i lalo, pono ia i ka Congress, e like me kāu e ʻōlelo ai. ʻO koʻu manaʻo, ʻo lākou wale nō me ka leverage e hana ai. Loaʻa iā lākou ka mana.
Michael Hudson: A i ʻole, hiki ke pili i ka poʻe i kahi kipi. Ma Roma he mau kipi e hana ai.
Ellen Brown: ʻOiaʻiʻo. Manaʻo wau aia kekahi mau poʻe Congress e hiki iā mākou ke lawe mai i kahi bila a i ʻole kekahi mea. Pehea ʻoe e hana ai? E hoʻopau wale nā panakō i kēlā mau moraki a i ʻole, ʻike ʻoe, aia kekahi mau konohiki… e like me nā luahine liʻiliʻi i hoʻolimalima i kekahi mau lumi a ʻo kā lākou loaʻa kālā, no ka laʻana. ʻO koʻu manaʻo, aia kekahi poʻe i kūpono ʻole i kēlā kūlana. Akā ʻo nā panakō, ʻaʻole mākou e noʻonoʻo e kākau i kā lākou hōʻaiʻē. Ua noʻonoʻo pono wau, inā loaʻa iā ʻoe ka hiki ke hoʻokō i kēlā kānāwai, pehea ʻoe e kākau ai?
Michael Hudson: Pono ʻoe e hoʻokuʻu i ke ʻano. Pono ʻoe e hoʻokuʻu i nā panakō i lalo. Ua loaʻa iā ʻoe kahi manawa maikaʻi loa i ka makahiki 2008 no ka hele ʻana o nā panakō. Ua kamaʻilio mua mākou ma kēia hōʻike e pili ana i ka FDIC i manaʻo ʻia ma lalo o Sheila Bair. Ua ʻōlelo ʻo ia, "E nānā, ʻo ka waihona ʻoi loa ka maikaʻi ʻole, ʻoi aku ka maikaʻi o ka mālama ʻana i ka pilikia ʻoi loa ʻo Citibank." Ua ʻōlelo ʻo ia, "Ua hiki iā mākou ke lawe." Ua lawa ke kālā ma Citibank no ka uku ʻana i nā mea hoʻopukapuka i hoʻopaʻa ʻia. ʻO ka poʻe speculators, stockholders a me kekahi poʻe paʻa paʻa i hoʻopau ʻia. Akā, ʻo ka poʻe paʻa paʻa ka ʻoi aku ka waiwai o One Percent. Ua hiki iā mākou ke lawe i waho. A laila, hiki ke hoʻohana ʻia ʻo Citibank ma ke ʻano he panakō aupuni, ʻo ia kāu e kamaʻilio nei.
ʻO ka ʻoiaʻiʻo ʻo ka waihona kālā he pono no ka lehulehu. ʻAʻole i kōkua maoli ka waihona kālā pilikino i ka hoʻokele waiwai, no ka mea, hana ia i nā hōʻaiʻē e kūʻē i ka collateral. Ke hoʻolilo ʻoe i nā hōʻaiʻē e pili ana i ka collateral - ka hale, ka waiwai paʻa, nā waihona ʻoihana a me nā mea paʻa - ʻo ka hopena o ka hōʻaiʻē panakō e hoʻonui i ke kumukūʻai o kēia koʻa. Hoʻopau ʻoe i kahi hoʻokele waiwai kiʻekiʻe: nā kumukūʻai hale kiʻekiʻe, nā kumukūʻai hoʻomaha kiʻekiʻe, nā kumukūʻai ʻinikua kiʻekiʻe. A ʻaʻole hiki iā ʻoe ke loaʻa kahi ʻōnaehana panakō lehulehu i kūkulu ʻia ma luna o ka ʻōpala o ka ʻōnaehana panakō kalepa i aneane e pepehi iā ia iho, e like me kāu i wehewehe ai. ʻAʻole hiki iā ʻoe ke hele i mua.
ʻAʻole hiki iā ʻoe ke hoʻi wale i ka maʻamau no ka mea ʻo ka normalcy kahi kūlana i lawe mai iā mākou i kēia pilikia e hoʻomaka. ʻAʻole hiki iā ʻoe ke hoʻomau i ka hōʻaiʻē, ka hoʻopaʻa ʻana i nā panakō a hāʻawi iā lākou i nā kālā hou aʻe e hoʻonui ai i ka ʻaiʻē, no ka mea i kekahi manawa ʻaʻole hiki ke hoʻomau ʻia ka ʻaiʻē. E hoʻopau ʻia nā ʻaiʻē, ma kekahi ʻano a i ʻole. ʻO ka nīnau, pehea e kākau ʻia ai nā ʻaiʻē inā ʻaʻole hiki ke uku ʻia? A i ʻole e loaʻa iā ʻoe nā paʻa, ʻo ia ka Obama a me ka Biden Democratic Party solution, a i ʻole e lilo ana ka poʻe ʻaiʻē a me ka ʻōnaehana panakō. Inā ʻoe e kākau hou i nā kānāwai e hoʻopau i nā manaʻo ʻauhau kūikawā āpau no ka ʻāpana kālā, nā hoʻoponopono kūikawā a me nā makemake i nā panakō, e hele lākou i lalo a hiki i ke aupuni ke lawe maʻalahi iā lākou a hana iā lākou ma ke ʻano he mau panakō aupuni. , ʻoi aku ka nui e like me nā waihona mālama kālā ma mua. ʻAʻole hiki iā lākou ke hana i ka hōʻaiʻē koe wale nō no nā kumu i ʻae ʻia e ka lehulehu. ʻAʻole hiki iā lākou ke hoʻolilo i nā hōʻaiʻē lawe, nā hōʻaiʻē predatory payday, a me nā ʻano kālā hoʻopunipuni ʻē aʻe i lilo ai ka ʻoihana waihona kālā ma kēia ʻāina. No laila, ʻaʻole ʻo ka hoʻopaʻa ʻaiʻē wale nō ka pilikia; ʻo ia ka hoʻoponopono hou ʻana i ka ʻōnaehana kālā e hoʻolilo iā ia i mea pono no ka lehulehu ma kahi o kahi monopoly pilikino.
Ellen Brown: Pololei. Kākoʻo loa au i kēlā. He kani maikaʻi kēlā. No laila, ʻike wau ua kākau ʻoe i kēia manawa e pili ana i ka nīnau inā ʻaʻole ia he inflationary e hana i kēia mau bailouts. Ua ʻōlelo ʻoe ʻaʻole, aia mākou i ke au o ka deflation, a ʻo ke ʻano o ka hāʻawi kālā ʻana o ka Fed i ke kālā i ka ʻāpana kālā e ʻoi aku ka maikaʻi o ka pilikia deflation. Hiki iā ʻoe ke wehewehe i kēlā?
Michael Hudson: ʻElua ʻano kumu kūʻai ma ka hoʻokele waiwai. ʻO kekahi nā kumukūʻai no nā waiwai a me nā lawelawe a nā kānaka e kūʻai ai: ʻo ka helu kumukūʻai o nā mea kūʻai aku no ka meaʻai, nā lole, nā hale; ʻo kekahi ke kumu kūʻai o ka waiwai. ʻO ka mea i loaʻa iā mākou ʻo ka hoʻonui kālā waiwai. Ua hoʻokuʻu ʻia nā panakō e hōʻaiʻē hou aʻe i ke kālā e kūʻē i nā waiwai, ʻo ia hoʻi, ʻo ka hōʻaiʻē a lākou e hōʻaiʻē ai. No laila ua hana nā panakō i kēia piʻi nui o nā kumukūʻai hale. Ua hoʻokumu ʻia ke kumu o ka waiwai waena e nā panakō e hoʻonui ana i ke kumukūʻai o ka waiwai maoli, ke kumukūʻai o nā waihona a me nā mea paʻa. Akā,ʻo ka hoʻonuiʻana i ke kumukūʻai o ka waiwai paʻa,ʻo ia hoʻi, no ke kūʻaiʻana i home nou iho, a iʻole no ka hoʻolimalima hale, ponoʻoe e uku hou aku i kāu kālā i ka māhele kālā, i nā panakō no ka moraki. ʻO ka hoʻolimalima no ka uku ukupanee. E hōʻaiʻē kālā nā poʻe speculators, nā mea ʻole, a me nā mea hoʻomohala waiwai i ke kālā mai kahi panakō i mea e uku ai i nā hoʻolimalima āpau no ka uku. ʻO ka mea a lākou e ʻimi nei ʻo ka loaʻa kālā - ke piʻi ʻana o ke kumukūʻai. Akā, i ka piʻi ʻana o nā kumukūʻai no ka waiwai paʻa, nā waihona a me nā mea paʻa, pono ke koena o ka lehulehu e uku hou aku, ʻaʻole no ka hale wale nō akā no ka loaʻa kālā hoʻomaha, a no nā waiwai monopoli a me nā lawelawe. Huli mākou i a mea hoʻopau hoʻokele waiwai. Hoʻonui ʻia ka loaʻa kālā no ka hoʻolimalima hoʻokele waiwai, ʻaʻole no ka loaʻa kālā, ʻaʻole no ka uku, ʻaʻole no ka waiwai a me nā lawelawe, akā ma ke ʻano he uku lawe no nā waiwai i kālā ʻia e ka ʻaiʻē panakō. ʻO kēia kahi e hoʻohaʻahaʻa ai ka ʻāpana kālā i ka hoʻokele waiwai.
ʻAʻole kēia ka capitalism, ma ke ʻano ʻaʻole ia he capitalism ʻoihana. ʻAʻole ia ka mea i manaʻo ʻia e ka poʻe i ke kenekulia 19. Hiki ke noʻonoʻo ʻia ka hoʻokele waiwai kālā e like me ka hiki ʻole o ka ʻoihana ʻoihana e hoʻokuʻu i nā ʻoihana mai ka hoʻolimalima a me ka ukupanee a mai ka hoʻoilina o ka feudalism. ʻO ke kalakala kālā i loaʻa iā mākou ke ala e hoʻi ai i ka feudalism. He neofeudalism. He neoserfdom. Ke hoʻololi nei i ka heluna kanaka i mau kauā aie, nā peon aie e uku i nā kālā a pau i loaʻa iā lākou i ka mea ʻaiʻē, a ʻaʻole lawa ke kālā e kūʻai ai i nā waiwai a me nā lawelawe. No laila ʻoiaʻiʻo, ke hāʻule maoli nei nā kumukūʻai o nā waiwai a me nā lawelawe, no ka mea ʻaʻole lawa ke kālā e kūʻai ai nā kānaka. ʻO ia no ka mea ʻoi aku ka nui o kā lākou loaʻa kālā e uku ʻia no ka loaʻa ʻana o nā hale i hoʻopaʻa ʻia i ke kālā, nā pono hana aupuni a me nā lawelawe monopoly kālā.
Ellen Brown: ʻO ia hoʻi kaʻu hoʻopaʻapaʻa. Hiki iā ʻoe ke ninini i ke kālā i loko o ka hoʻokele waiwai maoli ma ke ʻano o ka loaʻa kālā o ke ao holoʻokoʻa a i ʻole kekahi ʻano kālā helikopter ʻē aʻe, hoʻopau i nā aie haumāna, a pēlā aku. ke kālā i loaʻa e uku aku ai. A ʻo ke kālā e hoʻoheheʻe ʻia, e hele ana i loko o kekahi… Aia ʻelua ʻoihana a ʻo ke kālā i komo i ka ʻoihana kālā ʻaʻole e hoʻi hou mai. Makemake wau e hiki iaʻu ke hōʻoiaʻiʻo i kēlā, akā me he mea lā iaʻu ke ʻike wale nei ʻoe he ʻoiaʻiʻo. He nui wale nā kāmaʻa āu e kūʻai ai. ʻO ke koena o kāu kālā nui e hele i nā mea nui e like me ke kīpē i nā poʻe kālai'āina a i ʻole ke kūʻai ʻana i nā Iowans i kā lākou mau moku moku a i ʻole kekahi mea like.
Michael Hudson: Aia kahi wehewehe maʻalahi. ʻAʻole hoʻi ke kālā i ka hoʻokele waiwai maoli, ka hoʻokele waiwai a me ka hoʻohana ʻana. Ke hele nei i ka hoʻokele waiwai. Hoʻohana hou ʻia i ke kūʻai ʻana i ke kumu kūʻai o nā hale a me nā waihona a me nā bona. A hiki ke emi keia kumukuai a nalowale. Hiki ke hoʻopau ʻia, a aia mau i ka hāʻule kālā. No laila, ʻo ka nīnau, he aha is ka hoʻokele waiwai? ʻElua maoli ʻoihana waiwai. Aia ka hoʻokele waiwai a me ka hoʻohana ʻana o nā limahana e hana ana i nā waiwai a me nā lawelawe, a me ke kūʻai ʻana i nā mea a lākou e hana ai. A aia ka hoʻokele waiwai. ʻOi aku ia ma mua o ka hoʻokele waiwai. ʻO ia ka ʻāpana kālā, ʻinikua a me nā waiwai waiwai - ka ʻāpana FIRE. Ke hele aku ke kālā mai ka waiwai a me ka hoʻokele waiwai lawelawe i loko o ka hoʻolimalima hoʻolimalima a me ka hoʻokele waiwai, hele ia mai ka 99 pakeneka i loko o ka lima o ka pākēneka hoʻokahi. No laila hiki iā ʻoe ke loaʻa i ke Alanui Nui - ka 95 a i ʻole 99 pakeneka o ka heluna kanaka - a me ka hoʻokele waiwai kālā e lilo loa nei e like me ka papa konohiki hoʻoilina i hoʻokele iā ʻEulopa i ka Middle Ages a hiki i ke kenekulia 19 i ka wā i manaʻo ʻia e hoʻokuʻu ʻia ka ʻoihana ʻoihana. waiwai mai keia papa predatory.
Me he mea lā e holo ana ka ʻoihana ʻoihana a hiki i ke Kaua Honua Mua, akā ua hoʻololi ke Kaua Honua I nā mea āpau. Mai ia manawa, ua loaʻa iā ʻoe kahi degeneration o ka capitalism ʻoihana i loko o kāna antithesis finance capitalism, ʻo ia ka hāʻule maoli i loko o ka neofeudalism a me ka neoserfdom. Ma hea e neʻe ai nā ʻAmelika inā ʻaʻohe hana a nalowale ko lākou mau hale?
Ellen Brown: ʻAe, e hele lākou i Mexico. Ua ʻike au i kahi ʻakaʻaka e pili ana i kēlā, i kekahi mea e pili ana, "Ke komo mai nei ʻoe i waho a i ʻole ʻoe?"
Michael Hudson: ʻAe, ʻoi aku ka maikaʻi o ke aʻo ʻana i ka Spanish.
Ellen Brown: ʻAe. ʻAe. Ua ʻike ʻia kahi ʻakaʻaka ʻē aʻe ʻo ia ka Statue of Liberty i ʻōlelo ʻia, "He makahiki hou e like me kēia a hoʻi i Farani." ʻAe, maikaʻi, maikaʻi ke kamaʻilio ʻana me ʻoe.
ʻO Michael Hudson: Ma ke ala, ʻo ke Statue of Liberty e paʻa ana i ka lama, ʻike ʻia kēlā kiʻi kiʻi i ka hoʻomaka ʻana o ka moʻomeheu. I ka wā i hoʻopau ai ʻo Hammurabi i nā aie, ua hāpai ʻo ia i ka lama kapu. A ʻo ka hoʻolaha "ua hoʻokiʻekiʻe ke aliʻi i ka lama kapu" he hōʻailona ia ma Babulona no ka hoʻolaha ʻana i kahi hōʻaiʻē.
Ellen Brown: ʻAe maikaʻi. Loaʻa iā mākou kēlā kuleana ma New York Harbor.
Michael Hudson: ʻAe.
He kope kēia mai ka paʻi ʻana o Iulai 21, 2020 o Ellen Brown's ʻO kā mākou kālā podcast ia.
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