Okulotshiweyo
AMY U-GOODMAN: Siqala umbukiso wanamuhla sibheka isivumelwano esisha phakathi kwe-Iran ne-Saudi Arabia sokuvuselela ubudlelwano bezokusebenzelana ngemva koqhekeko lweminyaka eyisikhombisa. Lesi sivumelwano sifinyelelwe ngemuva kwezinsuku ezine zezingxoxo eziyimfihlo eBeijing njengesibonakaliso sokukhula kwamandla okusebenzelana kweChina eMpumalanga Ephakathi. Njengengxenye yesivumelwano, i-Iran neSaudi Arabia bavumile ukuvula kabusha amanxusa abo zingakapheli izinyanga ezimbili. Usomaqhinga waseChina, uWang Yi, ubize lesi sivumelwano njengokunqoba kokuthula.
U-Wang YI: [kuhunyushwe] Ngicabanga ukuthi lokhu ukunqoba kwengxoxo, ukunqoba kokuthula, okunikeza izindaba ezinhle ezibalulekile zomhlaba wanamuhla oneziyaluyalu.
AMY U-GOODMAN: UNobhala-Jikelele we-UN u-António Guterres usincomile lesi sivumelwano, wathi, "Ubudlelwano obuhle bomakhelwane phakathi kwe-Iran neSaudi Arabia bubalulekile ekuzinzeni kwesifunda saseGulf."
Impendulo eWashington yathuliswa kakhulu. Umkhulumeli weWhite House National Security Council, uJohn Kirby, uthe abaphathi beBiden bayayeseka noma yimiphi imizamo yokudambisa ukungezwani esifundeni, kodwa wangabaza ukuthi i-Iran izohlangabezana yini nezibopho zabo.
U-Ali Shamkhani, unobhala weSupreme National Security Council, ukhulume ngoLwesihlanu eBeijing.
ALI SHAMKHANI: [kuhunyushwe] Ekupheleni kwezingxoxo, sifinyelele esiphethweni, ukuqala isahluko esisha ngemva kweminyaka eyisikhombisa yokunqamula ubudlelwano phakathi kwe-Islamic Republic of Iran kanye ne-Saudi Arabia, kuyilapho sicubungula izindaba zala mazwe amabili kanye nokuphepha nekusasa. yesifunda, ukuvimbela ukugxambukela ezifundazweni ezingaphandle kwesifunda kanye nezaseNtshonalanga kanye nokugxambukela okungapheli kombuso wamaZayoni esifundeni. …Sithemba ukuthi lesi sahluko esisha sizonxephezela ukuntengantenga kobudlelwano obenzeke kule minyaka eyisikhombisa edlule, futhi siholele ekuzinzeni nasekuvikelekeni esifundeni, kanye nentuthuko nenhlalakahle yabo bonke abantu baso.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Njengamanje sijoyinwe ngu-Trita Parsi, iphini likamongameli omkhulu we-Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft, umbhali wezincwadi ezimbalwa, okuhlanganisa Ukulahlekelwa Isitha: U-Obama, i-Iran, kanye Nokunqoba Kwezobuchwephesha.
Trita, wamukelekile futhi Intando yeningi Manje! Qala ngempendulo yakho kulokhu kuncibilika kobudlelwano phakathi kwe-Iran ne-Saudi Arabia, nalapho kwenzeke khona, lezi zingxoxo eziyimfihlo e-Beijing.
I-TRITA I-PARSI: [engazwakali] intuthuko ebaluleke ngempela esifundeni, hhayi kuphela ngenxa yokuthi amaSaudi kanye nama-Irani asefinyelele esivumelwaneni sokujwayela kwawo, okuthemba ukuthi kuzosetshenziswa ukwehlisa ukungezwani kwawo futhi, ngenxa yalokho, kwehlise ukungezwani kwamanye amazwe lapho AmaSaudis nama-Irani ayalwa wodwa, kodwa futhi nangenxa yokuthi iChina yangena yaletha lesi sivumelwano phezu komugqa wegoli. Ibisivele ilungiselelwe iminyaka engaphezu kwemibili ngabakwa-Iraqis kanye nama-Omanis, kodwa bebengakwazanga ukudlula emugqeni wamagoli amaShayina awenza. Lokhu kuyintuthuko enkulu, ngoba i-China kuze kube manje ayikaze ibonise intshisekelo noma ikhono lokukwazi ukudlala lolo hlobo lwendima ye-diplomatic esifundeni. Manje sekwenzekile. Ibe yimpumelelo, futhi ithumela amaza othusayo kuso sonke isifunda nangale kwayo.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Ngakho-ke, khuluma ngendima yeShayina ekuxoxisaneni ngesivumelwano esiyimfihlo, noma okungenani izingxoxo eziyimfihlo, hhayi isivumelwano esiyimfihlo.
I-TRITA I-PARSI: Hhayi-ke, amaShayina akwazi ukudlala le ndima ngezizathu ezimbalwa ezilula kakhulu. Okokuqala, banobudlelwano obuhle kakhulu nama-Irani namaSaudis. Ngokungafani ne-United States, amaShayina aye agcina ukungathathi hlangothi ezingxabanweni zawo. Basebenza ngokuzikhandla nangokuziphatha okukhulu ukuze bangazibandakanyi ezingxabanweni imibuso eyahlukene yezifunda enazo, futhi, ngenxa yalokho, babe kulesi sikhundla ukuze bakwazi ukudlala le ndima.
Kuyaphawuleka futhi ukuthi i-China ibe naleli thonya lezombusazwe ngaphandle kokuba nesizinda esisodwa samasosha esifundeni, ngaphandle kokuba umhlinzeki wezikhali oyinhloko wanoma yiliphi lalawa mazwe noma ngaphandle kokuhlinzeka ngeziqinisekiso zokuphepha kunoma yiliphi lalawa mazwe, okuvame ukuba yimodeli yaseMelika yokulamula. , esiyibona kancane kancane.
Uma lokhu-ke, manje kusho ukuthi amaShayina azodlala indima enkulu ngale kwalolu daba, lokho kungaba, ngokungangabazeki, intuthuko ebaluleke kakhulu. Futhi kunezimpawu zokuthi lokho kuyisifiso samaShayina. Akuyona nje isivumelwano sokujwayelekile. AmaShayina afuna ukubamba umhlangano phakathi kwe-Iran nezwe I-GCC amazwe, noma izifunda zama-Arab zasePersian Gulf, eBeijing ngasekupheleni kwalo nyaka. Lokhu kungaba izinyathelo zokuqala eziya ekwakhiweni kwezokuphepha okuyisisekelo, okuhlukile esifundeni.
AMY U-GOODMAN: UMongameli Biden ubuzwe ngalesi sivumelwano ngoLwesihlanu njengoba ephuma esithangamini nabezindaba.
INTATHELI: Ithini imibono yakho ngeSaudi Arabia kanye ne-Iran ekuvuseleleni ubudlelwano bobuzwe, mnumzane?
PRESIDENT I-JOE IBIDIDI: Ubudlelwane obungcono phakathi kuka-Israyeli nomakhelwane babo abangama-Arab, bungcono kuwo wonke umuntu.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Okhulumela uMkhandlu Wezokuphepha Kuzwelonke uJohn Kirby naye uphawule ngalesi sivumelwano engxoxweni noChuck Todd on Hlangana noCindezela.
UJOHN I-KIRBY: Noma yini enganciphisa ukungezwani esifundeni yamukelekile, Chuck. Futhi uma lokhu kungasisiza ukuthi siqede leyo mpi e-Yemen, uma kungasiza abantu baseSaudi bazizwe bekhululeke kakhudlwana, ukuthi ngeke bahlaselwe abavukeli baseHouthi abasekelwa yi-Iran, siyakwamukela lokho. … Kusazobonakala ukuthi lokhu kuzoba nesimeme kangakanani. Sike sayibona i-Iran ingena ezivumelwaneni ngaphambilini, yenza izibopho engazilandeli. Sithemba ukuthi bazokwenza. Siyethemba ukuthi lokhu kuzosebenza ukunciphisa ukungezwani.
I-CHUCK TODD: Ucabanga ukuthi uzovala lesi sivumelwano phakathi kwe-Israel neSaudi Arabia? Futhi ucabanga ukuthi lesi sivumelwano ne-Iran sikwenza kube nzima noma kube lula kuma-Israel ukwenza lokho?
UJOHN I-KIRBY: Ngokuqinisekile sifuna ukubona u-Israyeli ehlanganiswe eMpumalanga Ephakathi. Siyazisekela i-Abraham Accords, Chuck, futhi sifuna ukubona lokho kuhlanganiswa kuqhubeka. Esinye sezizathu ezenza umongameli aye eMpumalanga Ephakathi ehlobo eledlule kwakuwukusiza ukuhambisa leyo nqubo. Ubone muva nje i-Oman ivule indawo yabo yezindiza ezindizeni eziya noma ezibuya kwa-Israel. Lokho kuwumphumela walolo hambo umongameli alwenza. Yebo, senze isivumelwano seziqhingi zoLwandle Olubomvu. Ngakho-ke, senze inqubekelaphambili enkulu kulokho. Sifuna ukubona lokho kuhlanganiswa kujula futhi kwanda. Manje, ukuthi ngabe lesi sivumelwano se-Iran-Saudi Arabia noma cha, ukuthi lokho kukuthinta kanjani lokho, ngicabanga, kusazobonakala. Kodwa akuguquli ukugxila kwethu ekuzameni ukubona i-Israel ihlanganiswe kakhulu nesifunda.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Impendulo yakho, Trita Parsi, kukho konke lokho, kokubili okushiwo uJohn Kirby kanye noMongameli Biden?
I-TRITA I-PARSI: Anginaso isiqiniseko sokuthi umongameli uwuzwe kahle lo mbuzo, ngoba ukuphendula mayelana nomzamo we-US mayelana ne-Abraham Accords kanye nokuhlanganiswa kuka-Israyeli ekuphenduleni lowo mbuzo, kusobala, kubonakala sengathi kusikisela umbono ophikisayo. Kepha njengoba sibonile uJohn esho ku-TV ngokuhamba kwesikhathi, i-US iyayemukela le ntuthuko ngoba ekugcineni ingehlisa ukungezwani esifundeni. Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi lelo yiphuzu elibalulekile ngempela, ngoba noma kunovalo olukhulu njengamanje eWashington mayelana neChina ingena esikhaleni sezikhulu i-United States ngokwayo esizishiyile ngokuzikhubaza ukuthi ingakwazi ukudlala indima yomxazululi. kweziningi zalezi zingxabano ezihlukene, iqiniso nokho liwukuthi uma sineMpumalanga Ephakathi ezinzile, noma ngabe ilamula amaShayina, lokho ekugcineni kuyilungele i-United States, futhi.
I-US igxile kakhulu ku-Abraham Accord. Futhi iSivumelwano sika-Abrahama siletha ubudlelwano obungcono phakathi kwabathile I-GCC izifundazwe kanye neSaudi Arabia - kanye ne-Israel, kodwa akenzi lutho nhlobo ukuletha isisombululo kungxabano ye-Palestine-Israel, okuyiyona nkinga yangempela edinga ukuxazululwa. Kubonisa ukuthi i-United States empeleni idlulele ngaphezu kokuba nesifiso sokukwazi ukusiza. Futhi lokho kungaba yinto eyodwa, kodwa iqiniso liwukuthi iSivumelwano sika-Abrahama empeleni sisiza ukuqinisa lokho kungqubuzana futhi siqinisekise ukuthi ngeke sakwazi ukwenza inqubekela phambili, ngoba yonke ingcindezi isusiwe kwa-Israyeli yokuqeda ukusebenza kwayo ezindaweni zasePalestine. ukuqhubekela phambili ngokujwayelekile namanye amazwe. Ngakho-ke, izikhuthazo zokuthi ama-Israyeli ahambe aye lapho empeleni ezoxazulula ukungqubuzana kwe-Palestine-Israel zisuswa yiSivumelwano sika-Abraham. Futhi ngani? Ngoba, uyazi, izindiza eziqondile phakathi kwamazwe ahlukahlukene, njll. Kubonakala kimi kuwukuhwebelana okuyinqaba kakhulu. Futhi, futhi, ingxenye yesizathu sokuthi kungani ngicabanga ukuthi amazwe amaningi awasabheki eWashington ukusiza ukuxazulula ezinye zalezi zingxabano, kodwa okungenzeka ukuthi manje sizobona inkambiso lapho amehlo azophendulwa khona. ngaseBeijing.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Ungakhuluma nge-Iran-I-GCC Ingqungquthela ezoba seShayina, ehlelelwe iChina ngasekupheleni kwalo nyaka, ukubaluleka komhlangano ozoba khona? Yiziphi izingqinamba ezibalulekile ezilindelwe? Futhi, indima yeShayina, njengomthengisi omkhulu kuwo womabili la mazwe - lowo ngu-TRADER - kodwa umthengi omkhulu wamafutha e-Gulf, umthengi omkhulu kawoyela wase-Iran?
I-TRITA I-PARSI: Awu, futhi, kufanele sicace kakhulu. Yilokhu abahlongoza amaShayina. Asazi okwamanje uma ama-Irani kanye I-GCC izifundazwe zonke zamukele. Ngiyasola bazokwenza. Asazi ukuthi i-ajenda izoba nesifiso esingakanani. Ngakho-ke, kuningi okungaziwa. Kodwa iqiniso nje lokuthi kuye kwaphakanyiswa, iqiniso lokuthi kunamathuba amaningi okuthi la mazwe azokwamukela, libaluleke kakhulu ngokwalo.
I-Persian Gulf ingenye yezindawo ezimbalwa emhlabeni ezingenazo nhlobo izakhiwo zokuphepha. Futhi ukwenza i-China ingenele futhi iye ekwakheni okuthile ngaleyo ndlela kuzoba intuthuko ebaluleke kakhulu, ikakhulukazi uma ingalethi ukuthengiswa kwezikhali, ingalethi iziqinisekiso zokuphepha, kodwa empeleni kusiza isifunda ukuthi sizakhele ezokuphepha. izakhiwo futhi ube abaqinisekisi bayo balokho. Lokho kungaba indlela ehluke kakhulu kulokho esesikubonile kuze kube manje. Kungavala isikhala esingaletha ukuzinza okukhulu kakhulu esifundeni.
Futhi ngokombono wamaShayina, isizathu esiyinhloko sokuthi kungani lokhu kubalulekile kubo yingoba bawadinga kakhulu amandla ePersian Gulf. Futhi badinga ukuzinza ePersian Gulf. Kubalulekile futhi kubo, kubonakala sengathi, njengoba ukungezwani kwe-US-China kwanda, futhi i-United States iqhubekela phambili ekuzameni ukunqanda i-China, ngokuthi i-China idlale lolu hlobo lwendima ye-diplomatic kwenye indawo emhlabeni futhi izibonise ukuthi eyakhayo, mhlawumbe ebaluleke kakhulu, ezokwenza kube nzima kakhulu ukuthi i-United States iqukathe iChina.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Sikhuluma no-Trita Parsi, iphini likamongameli omkhulu we-Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft. Khuluma ngokuthi lesi sinqumo kanye nesivumelwano samukelwe kanjani eNingizimu ye-Asia, eMpumalanga Ephakathi.
I-TRITA I-PARSI: Yebo, kulo lonke elaseMpumalanga Ephakathi, kwamukelekile emazweni anjengeLebanon kuya eYemen kuya e-Iraq, eSaudi Arabia, vele, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain. Ukuphela kwezwe eliye lagqama ngempela ngokumelene nalokhu kube yi-Israel esifundeni. Futhi sizibonile izitatimende zika-Yair Lapid, isibonelo, umholi ophikisayo, osola lokhu kuNetanyahu, ukubiza lokhu njengentuthuko eyingozi kakhulu, nabanye. Futhi ngicabanga ukuthi lokhu kungenxa yokwesaba kwabo ukuthi lokhu kujwayelekile phakathi kwe-Iran neSaudi Arabia manje kuzosho ukuthi amaSaudis azoba nentshisekelo encane kakhulu noma aqhubekisele phambili ukuxoxisana kanzima ukuze enze ubudlelwano obujwayelekile no-Israyeli futhi ajoyine iSivumelwano sika-Abrahama. Inkinga, nokho, ukuthi lokhu akudingi kube / noma. ISaudi Arabia ingaba nobudlelwano obujwayelekile ne-Iran futhi kamuva futhi iqhubekele phambili ekwenzeni ubudlelwano obujwayelekile no-Israyeli.
Isiphi isithiyo esikhulu lapho, ngicabanga, ekugcineni, ukuthi ngaphandle kokuthi ama-Israyeli aqhubekele ekuthuleni kwangempela kanye nesixazululo sezwe ezimbili, kuyohlale kuyisimo esinzima nesinqumo sokuba amaSaudis aqhubekele ekujwayelekile. Ukuvota kukhombisile ukuthi noma isibalo sabantu baseSaudi sivulekele ukuhwebelana ne-Israel, abavulekele ukwenziwa ngokwejwayelekile ngaphandle uma kunesixazululo semibuso emibili kanye nezwe lasePalestine. Futhi lokhu akuyona inkinga encane kubantu baseSaudi. Lokhu akuyona indaba yezokuthutha zomphakathi. Lena inkinga ephethe inani elikhulu lamandla angokomzwelo. Ngakho-ke, noma ngicabanga ukuthi inkosana yomqhele waseSaudi izimisele ukwenza ngokwejwayelekile futhi ibikhombisa ukuthi, lolu wudaba okufanele aluqaphele kakhulu, ngoba ukuba nabantu baseSaudi baphikisana ngokuphelele nakho kuzoba yinkinga kuye uma iya phambili ngaphandle komnyakazo ohlangothini lwe-Israel oluya ekuthuleni.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Futhi kusho ukuthini lokhu ngeYemen, Trita?
I-TRITA I-PARSI: Kulapho ngicabanga ukuthi amathemba aphakeme, ukuthi ngenxa ye-Saudi Arabia ne-Iran ijwayele ukujwayela, ukuvuma ukungagxambukeli ezindabeni zangaphakathi zomunye nomunye, okusho ukuthi ngokombono waseSaudi kusho ukuthi ama-Irani ayeke ukusekela amaHouthis, nokuthi azokwenza. ukuletha ingcindezi kumaHouthis, ukuthi kuzoba namathuba aphezulu manje njengoba isivumelwano esikhona - sesiphelelwe yisikhathi kodwa sisalandelwa, ikakhulukazi, yizinhlangothi zombili - manje sesizokwazi ukunwetshwa futhi okungenzeka siye endaweni ehlala njalo. ukuxazulula phakathi kwezinhlangothi zombili. Ukuthi ama-Irani analelo thonya kumaHouthi noma cha kusazobonakala. Ngicabanga ukuthi kuye kwenziwa ihaba kakhulu. Ngakho-ke manje ama-Irani adinga ukuletha lokho. Kodwa abantu engikhulume nabo banethemba elikhulu ngalokhu, ngoba nakuba ingxabano yaseYemen inezimpande zayo zangaphakathi, ibhebhezelwe kakhulu inkinga kanye nokubangisana phakathi kwe-Iran neSaudi Arabia.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Futhi ekugcineni, ucabanga ukuthi kusho ukuthini lokhu, iChina ixoxisana ngalesi sivumelwano phakathi kwe-Iran neSaudi Arabia? Ngabe iChina ingadlala indima efanayo phakathi kweRussia ne-Ukraine?
I-TRITA I-PARSI: Nokho, kuyathakazelisa kakhulu ukuthi usho lokho, ngoba amaShayina, okokuqala, emasontweni ambalwa edlule, aqala lo mbono wabo wokuxoxisana phakathi kweRussia ne-Ukraine, futhi awuzange ubonakale kahle eNtshonalanga. Ngisho nangaphambi kokuba kuphunywe, isiphakamiso sasiyimpoqo. Futhi-ke, lapho liphuma, lalingabonakali liqukethe okungako.
Iqiniso liwukuthi ngicabanga ukuthi phansi komgwaqo amaShayina angadlala kahle leyo ndima, ngoba anamandla phezu kweRussia, okuyinto i-United States engenzi ngendlela efanayo. Futhi, sikhuluma ngokungqubuzana lapho i-US ngokucacile ohlangothini olulodwa. AmaShayina, ngokombono wase-US, asohlangothini lwaseRussia ngoba awazange athathe uhlangothi lwase-Ukraine, kodwa angicabangi ukuthi lokho kungumbono waseRussia.
Ngaphezu kwanoma yini enye, ngicabanga ukuthi yini ebalulekile lapha ukuqaphela, manje sisemhlabeni oxubile. Futhi kulowo mhlaba ogcwele izindawo eziningi, amandla afana neShayina - ezansi nomgwaqo, iNdiya - azodlala indima ebaluleke kakhulu, mhlawumbe indima ehamba phambili, uma kuziwa ekukhulumeni nasekuxazululeni izingxabano. Indlela yethu evela ohlangothini lwaseMelika, ngicabanga, kufanele kube ukuzivumelanisa nezimo nalokhu futhi samukele okuhle okuza nalokho, kunokuba sikubone lokho njengentuthuko embi neyingozi, ukuthi kungaba usongo kithi. Ngicabanga ukuthi usongo luzofika uma siqhubeka nokulandela indlela, ikakhulukazi eMpumalanga Ephakathi, lapho sithatha uhlangothi njalo, futhi ngenxa yalokho, sibe yingxenye yenkinga kunokuba ingxenye yesixazululo. Uma okujwayelekile okusha ukuthi amanye amazwe abheke eChina ekwenzeni ukuthula kanye neMelika ukuze ifudumale, lokho kungaba usongo. Kodwa akumele kube njalo. Kusezandleni zethu ukuthi sikwazi ukukuguqula lokho.
AMY U-GOODMAN: Trita Parsi, sifuna ukukubonga ngokuba nathi, iphini likamongameli omkhulu we-Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft kanye nombhali wenani lezincwadi, kuhlanganisa Ukulahlekelwa Isitha: U-Obama, i-Iran, kanye Nokunqoba Kwezobuchwephesha.
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